#indiewebcamp 2015-09-17

2015-09-17 UTC
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KevinMarks well, there are several ways to do them
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@whobeatmetothis RT @kevinmarks: “Do we really want to count on large corporations to inform and enlighten us?” https://www.yahoo.com/tech/creatives-ask-what-kind-of-web-do-we-want-129160086429.html #xoxofest #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644305122210648065)
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kylewm that's actually kind of an interesting case of js;dr, the article IS on archive.org, but the archive.org copy is also js-only
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kylewm wondering how they could possibly mirror a javascript site
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KevinMarks could use the same technique I use to render SVG for twitter
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KevinMarks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/archiving-jsdr-the-png-way-indieweb
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tantek kylewm: re: "centralization is just a projection of current trends" - that's one of the reasons we need not just 10 but 100s, preferably 1000s of indieweb "implementations"
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tantek kylewm: it's possible if you curl the article you might get enough content to view
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KevinMarks import it into medium
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tantek and it's only on "user" browsers where Forbes does the interstitial (maybe server side?) and other JS nonsense
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kylewm lol kevin, that is a huge png
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the future will be friendlier to ownyourdata because we are building that future
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KevinMarks medium import works on the yahoo one
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KevinMarks https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/c4d078848b15
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KartikPrabhu tantek: and others are building not that future
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KartikPrabhu tantek: any way not a useful debate :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: how is it that you are ascribing the building of negatives?
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tantek (that's the flaw)
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KevinMarks but not on forbes
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tantek you can't "not build the future" - that's called letting others build the future
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KartikPrabhu tantek: ok. both Medium and Facebook are building the future where you don't ownyourdata
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tantek no they are building syndication services, nothing more ;)
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KartikPrabhu thats is the how most people use Medium/Facebook
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KevinMarks whereas medium is building a syndication service with backup
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tantek and they're prototyping interesting/friendly UX - that's useful too.
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tantek we shall add the best of their distinctiveness to our own. their UX ideas will be assimilated.
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KartikPrabhu doesn't matter, unless hosting you own website becomes as easy as logging on the Medium
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tantek KartikPrabhu: your "most people" based reasoning is trivially debunkable.
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tantek "most people" take a long time to "get it"
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tantek e.g. "most people" don't believe in (actively dispute) Theory of Evolution
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KartikPrabhu lets talk 10-20 years from now :)
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tantek that doesn't mean the Theory of Evolution is not true, nor not useful, nor not going to "win".
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KartikPrabhu this isn't about some theory of science, but about how the people of the future will post on the web
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tantek belief and behavior are not disconnected
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KartikPrabhu and hence you can not ignore people's reactions
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tantek you can in aggregate, just as you can ignore that most people don't believe in (actively dispute) Theory of Evolution
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tantek point is, you can't use "most people" to prove that something will fail
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KartikPrabhu again not useful to debate this.
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tantek that's the debunking of your argument based on "how most people use"
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tantek as implying that that's the model that will succeed
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KartikPrabhu no. I was claiming either one can and we can't predict now
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tantek we can predict, by outbuilding
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tantek s/predict/cause it
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Loqi tantek meant to say: we can cause it, by outbuilding
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KartikPrabhu out building silos... hmmm my sincere good luck
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tantek I have complete confidence that we'll transition builders, creatives to their own sites, and silos will be left with the equivalent of what happened to MySpace etc.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: we *are* outbuilding them - adding features now at a pace even individually faster than they are.
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KartikPrabhu well it good that others are more optimistic than I am
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tantek we may not have caught up to nor passed their feature sets *yet*, emphasis on the *yet*
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tantek however we have the trends on our side there
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tantek we also haven't caught up yet in usability / ease of use - but I'm confident we'll catch up there - and pass them
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tantek KartikPrabhu: this isn't just theoretical idealism
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tantek we are already seeing this in instances
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tantek e.g. https://twitter.com/t/status/608143971206848512
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@t @brianoberkirch 2y ago you posted @Branch, I replied on my site “where it will likely last longer”. It did: http://tantek.com/2015/159/t1/branch-replied-my-site-last-longer (twitter.com/_/status/608143971206848512)
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tantek http://tantek.com/2015/159/t1/branch-replied-my-site-last-longer
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tantek In two years, I *crushed* branch - a silo - funded by @ev's Obvious corporation
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KartikPrabhu I am just skeptical if indieweb will ever transition to "most people"
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tantek My post *won*. Branch, the silo, and all their posts, *lost*.
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KartikPrabhu and were replaced by other silos
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tantek KartikPrabhu: want to see which transition to most people first? IndieWeb or Theory of Evolution?
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tantek s/transition/transitions
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: want to see which transitions to most people first? IndieWeb or Theory of Evolution?
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tantek I'll be happy with a level of indieweb usage that matches the Theory of Evolution. ;)
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KartikPrabhu most of the people I know don't care if their silos shutdown. they move on to the next one
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tantek I figure that's a pretty good metric.
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KartikPrabhu comparing apples to oranges
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KartikPrabhu how about indieweb usage with present day Twitter
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KartikPrabhu or twitter from 2010
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nah, I get to compare against any silo, especially one that Ev himself funded via Obvious, to dispute his point
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tantek simple competitive science, we're going to defeat the smaller silos before we defeat the larger ones
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KartikPrabhu ok so you pick the silo and a year to caompare
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tantek hence I'm giving you evidence that we are on our way. we have had victories.
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KartikPrabhu not disputing that
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no problem, every time a silo shuts down, we beat it.
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tantek BTW kylewm yes I tried Forbes.com in Archive.org and that's why I changed my tweet/note from what I first said here
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tantek and I provided the example of t.co being dead to history
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tantek it's all in my note :P
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tantek http://tantek.com/2015/259/t1/js-dr-sites-dead-to-history
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kylewm crosses fingers that KevinMarks' possed from known.kevinmarks.com...
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kylewm no! you win this round, tantek
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tantek coming up with round two re: branch - thanks to Kartik's prodding
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tantek KevinMarks: there you go - how's this for confrontational: https://twitter.com/t/status/644312812022575105
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@t @kevinmarks "will be dead"? #Branch funded by @Ev @Obvious *is* dead. My post won, as predicted http://tantek.com/2015/159/t1/branch-replied-my-site-last-longer (ttk.me t4dE2) (twitter.com/_/status/644312812022575105)
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tantek sad thing is - it would have taken the *tiniest fraction* of what was invested in Branch to setup a static archive of the whole thing.
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tantek has hopes for the "archiving" of /thisismyjam
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tantek KartikPrabhu: your handwringing / pessimism about the silos doing better is not very different than points made by Brian Oberkirch 2 years ago in his Branch post
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tantek hence I suggest you read this entire blog post: http://tantek.com/2013/073/b1/silos-vs-open-social-web
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tantek (my response to Brian's worries)
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tantek note that "Branch" is not even mentioned in the Forbes article. How convenient it is to forget history. We will not forget. http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#Branch
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tantek oops obvious investment firm is @obviousvc
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tantek fixed on my site
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tantek hmm - I think I will POSSE CRUD that
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tantek since KevinMarks did a native retweet and no other responses
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I do not disagree with anything in your post, or the work done here. I am just a social cynic, a town crier if you will
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tantek poof. POSSE CRUD to Twitter complete.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: more time building than crying/cynicing ;)
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KartikPrabhu of course
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tantek KevinMarks: POSSE update: https://twitter.com/t/status/644315290881380352
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@t @kevinmarks will be dead? #Branch funded by @ev @obviousvc *is* dead. My post won, as predicted http://tantek.com/2015/159/t1/branch-replied-my-site-last-longer (ttk.me t4dE2) (twitter.com/_/status/644315290881380352)
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tantek (the old tweet relegated only to the #Indiewebcamp archives ;) )
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tantek when did /Twitter add /birthday to your profile?
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KevinMarks in july: https://blog.twitter.com/2015/hbd-celebrate-your-birthday-on-twitter
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aaronpk wow this is a delightfully old-school CSS https://www.webkit.org/blog/3476/content-blockers-first-look/
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aaronpk small font, even smaller font in a very long sidebar
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kylewm does anyone have a suggestion for how to know when to use the "link" parameter (creates an embedded link preview thing) when publishing to Facebook? I want to do it in a generic way for bridgy publish
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aaronpk probably if there is a URL in the post that is not the domain that is publishing
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kylewm "not the domain that is publishing" -- that's what I said too! but snarfed said he would want the preview if linking to his own domain
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kylewm ref: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/474
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[tantek] Kevinmarks lol. Apparently I forgot completely as I added that info both to /birthday and /Twitter wiki pages back in July!
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aaronpk oh interesting
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aaronpk then i'd say it should be an option
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aaronpk I know some people don't want the preview if it's their own post
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[tantek] I agree with snarfed, always preview by default as that's the existing FB UI behavior.
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KevinMarks hah tantek - wiki as backup brain
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kylewm I think if there's a link in the content of your post, it's relatively safe to say you want a preview for it
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[tantek] With a way to uncheck it if possible n
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kylewm pretty clear we don't want a preview as the "See Original" link
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aaronpk well it's like how I stopped adding the link to my post in my FB copy because I didn't like how giant it made my small notes
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[tantek] Kevinmarka apparently I was *too* good at swapping that memory out to the wiki so I could reuse those cells for other purposes.
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kylewm aaronpk: are you talking about http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#Note_with_inline_citation_link
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aaronpk hm yeah
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[tantek] Yeah for notes it doesn't matter. But for photo (note) posts, it might still make sense so the photo shows up in the preview?
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kylewm hmm, I need to review how bridgy handles photos on facebook. i always prefer they are posted as photos rather than links to photos http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#Posting_Photos_via_the_Facebook_API
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[tantek] Yes for sure. However there are also notes with photos in the middle of them.
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kylewm u-featured?
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KartikPrabhu u-featured or the first u-photo?
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kylewm previously I'd written that u-featured should mean a Facebook link with that photo as the preview, and u-photo should mean a Facebook photo
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that shouds about right. but it would be fine to fall back on first u-photo as preview link
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snarfed updated http://granary-demo.appspot.com/ , it now lets you convert between mf2 html/json, activitystreams, and atom via REST API and interactive UI
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snarfed (as well as via the library)
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snarfed thanks to KartikPrabhu for the inspiration and kylewm for plenty of help!
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KartikPrabhu hmmm must see how it fairs compared to hfeed2atom ;)
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snarfed :P
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snarfed shift-refresh if anything seems off
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KevinMarks can we go round and round between it and unmung?
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KartikPrabhu probably can you did it once with hfeed2atom
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KevinMarks looks like it loses some of the feed level info
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fstreams.wgbh.org%2Fonline%2Fclas%2Fclas_performance.xml
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fgranary-demo.appspot.com%2Furl%3Finput%3Dhtml%26output%3Datom%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.unmung.com%252Ffeed%253Ffeed%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fstreams.wgbh.org%25252Fonline%25252Fclas%25252Fclas_performance.xml%26plaintext%3Dtrue
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[snarfed] yeah, not surprised
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[snarfed] thanks for the examples!
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KevinMarks I'm sure I'm dropping lots too
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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pfefferle good morning all!
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GWG pfefferle: Good morning. Any news?
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harryreeder.co.uk edited /events/2015-09-17-homebrew-website-club (+11) "/* Edinburgh */ Attending" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning!
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pfefferle hey GWG... not really and on your side?
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rhiaro Kongaloosh: indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
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voxpelli Next HWC Malmö: Thursday 24/9 Will try to update wiki asap
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Jeena great!
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aaronpk \o/
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aaronpk be sure to mention swedish indienews!
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voxpelli Jeena: I'm still up to demo Swat0 on Wednesday – how about you?
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Jeena oh damn, I'm not sure yet, it will be tight because I didn't have any time this week, I started last week to at least resend webmentions on updates and new comments
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Jeena but I got stuck on how to display and store those external 3rd party comments
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Jeena and where they should be shown etc.
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aaronpk that's my next project for my site too
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voxpelli Yeah, the showing can be tricky, although you can cheat by just showing a few levels deep, will still be able to complete Swat0
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voxpelli I did crazy recursive Postgres queries so I show an infinite depth
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voxpelli Haven't ensured that the style doesn't break after X levels though
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Jeena do you have a m2m relation between for example notes so you a note has and belongs to many notes?
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voxpelli I think I save entries and what normalized URL:s each and everyone mentions and then I recursively add all mentions the normalized URL:s of the top matching entries until no more can be found
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voxpelli The scheme is here: https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/blob/master/lib/install-schema.js
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aaronpk interesting, I was planning on a much more flat storage approach
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aaronpk basically deciding which posts a comment should appear on, and adding a reference to it in each post's list of comments
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voxpelli I just extended what I had and tried to get it to work by adding as little extra as possible :)
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aaronpk ah yeah. I have nothing right now :D
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voxpelli My entries table is basically just a giant cache of all marked up pages I have had a reason to fetch
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voxpelli Thinking I may just as well build a reply context embed eventually as well as Salmentions will require me to fetch the data anyway
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voxpelli Jeena: do you use a database? If so: which one?
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Jeena yeah sqlite but behind ruby on rails so I can upgrade if needed
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voxpelli Jeena: on line 284 here you'll find my crazy WITH RECURSIVE query
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voxpelli https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/blob/master/lib/classes/entries.js
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voxpelli That's likely Postgres-only
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Jeena hehe I have never seen with recursive in SQL
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: once you have relocated, i have a woman i met at devopsdays who would be interested in helping organize an IWC
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ben_thatmustbeme she used to do her own barcamp years ago
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@benwerd Finding that splitting out "replies" - which makes sense in the #indieweb context - is confusing the hell out of customers. (twitter.com/_/status/644546179691208704)
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@aaronpk @benwerd To be fair, I think it was debatable whether that made sense in #indieweb too. I'm combining mine in my site rebuild. (twitter.com/_/status/644546760690429952)
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rhiaro R2ZER0, moredhel, KitB: if you're coming to IWC, converge on 2.35, MF1 has people in and all my officemates just left (cc tbrb)
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rhiaro s/if you're coming/when you come
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Loqi rhiaro meant to say: R2ZER0, moredhel, KitB: when you come to IWC, converge on 2.35, MF1 has people in and all my officemates just left (cc tbrb)
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rhiaro s/IWC/HWC
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rhiaro Also Kongaloosh
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moredhel hehe :p, cool. I'm heading back to my old flat first, then will head over
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rhiaro So who wants to break last week's 8 hour HWC record?
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moredhel hehe, my mind my fall out of my head if I do that
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aaronpk i do!
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rhiaro Good luck with that :)
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: what do you use for live blogging by the way?
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KevinMarks noterlive.com
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KevinMarks but it posts to twitter live, not via micropub yet
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh
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ben_thatmustbeme just updated my client to be pretty nice for me
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/live?category=indiewebcamp for example. and if you are logged it in remembers the syndicate-to options
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KevinMarks noterlive does a tweet preview and length countdown, whcih is hadny
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, i have that on my main page, client but not on this one
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be good to add
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KevinMarks but I should add micropub
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KevinMarks it also caches speaker names so you can switch easily
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro I have three computers in front of me, one with IRC, one with phd/academic work I'm lagging on, one with potential for HWC... This will help with productivity, right?
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KevinMarks yes: https://xkcd.com/1411/
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tbrb desktop, laptop, ultrabook, tablet, laptop, watch
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tbrb what next?
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rhiaro wall
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@jgmac1106 Hey #Indieweb Help me find sources? Is the mobile web dead http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2015/hey-indieweb-help-me-find-sources-is-the-mobile-web (twitter.com/_/status/644554575761031168)
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M-kegan Aaronpk, about? Just finished doing a writeup for a matrix <--> slack bridge :) https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge/blob/master/HOWTO.md
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aaronpk nice
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M-kegan Somewhat surreal since with an irc bridge in the same room you get irc to slack bridge *for free* without needing to even know about matrix
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M-kegan Which is kinda the whole point
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M-kegan Do you know how featureful the slack apis are? I'm just using webhooks but obviously I'd like to create actual users on slack and not be limited to bing words or a certain channel
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aaronpk don't think you can create actual users, but you can use the name and icon param to make the webhook user look like other users
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aaronpk (see the IWC slack channel for an example)
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aaronpk and afaik you can only get the global web hook per channel
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Kongaloosh Rhiaro at back door
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M-kegan Can you programmatically create webhooks?
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M-kegan And can you be notified when new channels are made? 0:)
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aaronpk I don't think so https://api.slack.com/methods
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rhiaro Kongaloosh: which door?
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rhiaro There are two side doors
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rhiaro Not so much a back door
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rhiaro Be at the east one, by Inspace
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M-kegan Boo :(
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@BillSeitz RT @benwerd: Finding that splitting out "replies" - which makes sense in the #indieweb context - is confusing the hell out of customers. (twitter.com/_/status/644562043052388352)
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rhiaro HWC Edinburgh currently: tbrb, R2ZER0, Kongaloosh
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Zegnat rhiaro: how many hours are planned for you guys this time around
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rhiaro Zegant: we don't plan
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rhiaro We just don't leave.
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Zegnat rhiaro, tbrb, R2ZER0_, Kongaloosh ++ just don’t leave
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Kongaloosh well, the door is not only locked from the inside, but the outside.
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Kongaloosh it's kind of impossible.
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rhiaro Haha that is a good point Kongaloosh
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Loqi awesome
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rhiaro Need a swipe card to get out... I'm the only one who has one.
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rhiaro After 1.5 hours of HWC, R2ZER0 finally connects his laptop to the internet.
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snarfed1 lol
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moredhel Rhiaro, you in IF?
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rhiaro moredhel: yep
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moredhel Could you send a minion to let me in?
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rhiaro on it
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moredhel The :)
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kylewm does anyone POSSE full articles to Facebook?
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GWG Good afternoon
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gRegorLove I've only POSSED a couple full notes to FB
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GWG I am working on an article now I will not be POSSEing to Facebook
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GWG I decided to write another Indieweb article.
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GWG Trying to figure out how to explain Microformats in terms of utility
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GWG The why in the wiki isn't really helpful
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GWG Anyone have any suggestions on that?
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rhiaro went to get coffee and recruited a new HWC member in the kitchen
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GWG Rhiaro, the northeast needs you
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rhiaro I'm on my way, GWG!
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rhiaro two weeks yesterday.
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GWG pictures Rhiaro on a street corner preaching the way of the IndieWeb
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rhiaro I wouldn't quite go that far
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rhiaro It happened that he was looking for a hacknight anyway. It was an easy sell.
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GWG I didn't think you would, but it was sn amusing thought
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kylewm repent siloers!
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GWG My coworkers have to be shown where the power switch is.
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snarfed1 hah. classic joke: what's the first thing AOL tech support asks when you call?
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snarfed ...not "is it turned on"
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snarfed ...not "is it plugged in"
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snarfed ...but "do you own a computer?"
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snarfed retires to #indiechat
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Zegnat “the end of your silos is nigh!” — rhiaro
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@fkooman @almereyda @harryhalpin IndieAuth as variant of OAuth 2.0 is not mentioned, well... not enough uptake I guess :) (twitter.com/_/status/644593589310353412)
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@markcollected Distributed > decentralised? Maybe. Worth checking this out. #indieweb - IPFS is a new peer-to-peer hypermedia .. http://www.ministryofmark.com/2015/distributed-decentralised-maybe-worth-checking-this-out-indieweb---ipfs (twitter.com/_/status/644603411573415936)
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@almereyda And @gandhiano, what do you think, how does https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth comply with LDAP? Profiles and delegation R 🔑 @harryhalpin @fkooman @w3c (twitter.com/_/status/644605201278742528)
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct (+568) "/* Similar Codes of Conduct */ add explicit positive feedback, mention of safety, about a derivative code of conduct" (view diff)
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[tantek] Rhiaro did you take a photo tonight? Of HWC Edi?
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rhiaro No. Thought about it briefly but forgot
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[tantek] Kylewm I've POSSEd an entire article to FB via Bridgy Publish before IIRC. Not a regular thing though.
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rhiaro Can still take one of me and moredhel if that's useful..
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rhiaro Everyone else left
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[tantek] Sure! Then just mention "not pictured" and list them
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[tantek] And note to self take photo half hour after meetup start!
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rhiaro Half an hour after the meetup starts is usually still just me, or me and tbrb
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rhiaro people come and go, that's why it's more difficult
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rhiaro An hour or an hour and a half in is usually peak
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[tantek] Take photos every 30 min or so then. Ok to have a collage of informal shots.
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kylewm tantek: when you're back at a computer, it'd be awesome if you could dig up an example of an article possed to facebook
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kylewm I checked your 3 recent articles to no avail
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rhiaro Why the big push for photos?
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[tantek] Rhiaro it helps build community
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[tantek] Kylewm blinking fever
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kylewm tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 240 karma
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snarfed1 huh. tantek did you add the wms on that post manually? http://tantek.com/2015/190/b1/blinking-fever#blinking-fever-comments
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@osbridge RT @confreaks: New Video! @osbridge Micropub: The Emerging API Standard for IndieWeb Apps by @aaronpk http://confreaks.tv/videos/osbridge2015-micropub-the-emerging-api-standard-for-indieweb-apps (twitter.com/_/status/644632511402762241)
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kylewm snarfed: yes he did iirc
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@tedcurran Welcome to hell: @Apple vs. @Google vs. @Facebook and the slow death of the #web #openweb #indieweb #adblocker http://traffic.shareaholic.com/e?a=1&u=http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/17/9338963/welcome-to-hell-apple-vs-google-vs-facebook-and-the-slow-death-of-the-web&r=1 (twitter.com/_/status/644641175371034624)
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kylewm shareaholic.com, is that another one of those ironic URLs?
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@devleakslinks @verge @reckless this is why we need more movements like the @indiewebcamp #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644653084401139712)
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snarfed !tell tantek, low priority, but when you get a chance, could you update https://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking ? i vaguely remember the conclusion was to use e- vs p-content, ie https://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking##consistency , but i'm not sure
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/dangillmor/status/644641080030330881
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@dangillmor What is the incentive for people to use platforms that force unblockable ads on us, eating up bandwidth and time? (twitter.com/_/status/644641080030330881)
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KartikPrabhu wants to write a long detailed reply. Such question arise from time to time and is basically first-world tunnel vision
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[tantek] Write a short pithy reply instead, with a strong first sentence hook, ellipsed on Twitter, with a PSL to the original with a few more sentences on your own site. No need to be thorough. Just make a quick couple of points.
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Loqi [tantek]: snarfed left you a message 14 minutes ago: priority, but when you get a chance, could you update https://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking ? i vaguely remember the conclusion was to use e- vs p-content, ie https://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking##consistency , but i'm not sure http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-17/line/1442532550859
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[tantek] Thought I made such an update though maybe it was in my head.
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GWG tantek, I need help improving an answer on the wiki. Why Microformats
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gRegorLove It's the simplest thing you can add to your existing HTML
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gRegorLove It's DRY
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KartikPrabhu [tantek]: there: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/644659479070441472
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@kartik_prabhu @dangillmor Same reason people used taxis with ads playing on them. more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/re-ad-incentive (twitter.com/_/status/644659479070441472)
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GWG gRegorLove: But that doesn't explain to someone why they should use them