#indiewebcamp 2015-09-19

2015-09-19 UTC
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@kevinmarks Hm, @ibogost I take the opposite view with Douglas Adams: http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/19990901-00-a.html broadcast is the aberration, the web restoration #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/645025732465266688)
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@phildini RT @kevinmarks: nice explanation by @gruber of how standards are documentation, not legislation: http://daringfireball.net/2015/09/de_facto_veto_power #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/645026268174524416)
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GWG tantek: I got one, but it arrived oddly.
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@kevinmarks “Adtech is a mania, and you can’t talk a mania down. You just have to let it fail.” - @dsearls http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2015/09/18/debugging-adtech-assumptions/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/645045656160112641)
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GWG I have the strangest problem
mlncn, gRegorLove, nitot_, arlen, lukebrooker, kerozene, MrClaw, smcgregor, Geng, nitot, loic_m, eschnou, mapkyca, acegiak, frzn, sparverius, aravind, tvn, wilfredh and dns53 joined the channel
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@mrclay_org Maybe 2025 will echo 1995: #indieweb ppl making sites for the love, programmers relying on one company's SDKs. 95 economy was hopping! (twitter.com/_/status/645215238955081728)
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context https://webmention.io/notification/4SoijHpERJcY8FWCL0R-zA
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-09-20-Inline_webactions_for_readers http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/unicyclic.com/mal/2015-09-20-Inline_webactions_for_readers
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@parzzix Starting my homebrew website.. Nginx or Apache? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/645243649723248640)
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@cwodtke @jmspool @mathowie many business models depend on scale which smaller publisher don't have. Be sad to see indieweb pushed into hobby status (twitter.com/_/status/645249053387718656)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/mathowie/status/645238122360344576
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@mathowie I go away for a week & return to find companies killing the indie web with the only option of publishing on their fancy RSS readers with ads (twitter.com/_/status/645238122360344576)
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aaronpk TIL facebook doesn't handle og:image tags that include a data URI
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parzzix looking to build a basic website..wondering whether to do lemp or lamp server?
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aaronpk for basic websites it doesn't matter too much
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aaronpk there are good docs here on setting up SSL for Nginx tho http://indiewebcamp.com/Nginx
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parzzix thanks aaronpk
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@veselosky @datagrok Are you familiar with https://indiewebcamp.com/ Site's a mess, but they have taken many small steps toward Dialogue, I think. (twitter.com/_/status/645258855287496704)
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voxpelli aaronpk: data-uri:s in og:image? /me runs away screaming
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voxpelli speaking from a MySQL point of view that would require TEXT-type columns for such data – so any URL longer than a regular VARCHAR would probably rarely be supported
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voxpelli gain from supporting it would be less than the cost
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voxpelli from a backend perspective data-uri:s are often a nightmare :P
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voxpelli !tell tantek no reason WebMention endpoint can't be included and discovered on an HTTP 401 response so sending a mention to a private post should be possible?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@voxpelli Satte ihop en snabb översikt igÃ¥r över IndieWeb-rörelsen och den oberoende sociala webben (och nämner Twitter/Jaiku): http:///2015/09/oberoende-sociala-webben-2015/ (twitter.com/_/status/645265126073987072)
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micro_ Hi.
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GWG Good day
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micro_ Am getting error "No supported verified providers found"
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GWG Indieauth?
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micro_ All links to my site (at 3rd parties) are prefixed with 'https' and not 'http'
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micro_ yes
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GWG https is not an issue
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GWG What is the site?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "site" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102y
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micro_ I changed github link to 'http' and it was they sucessfully verified.
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micro_ site: https://lence.net
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micro_ Let me rephrase: On github.com, I changed the link to http://lence.net and it was then sucessfully verified.
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voxpelli micro_: did you explicitly enter the https URL into IndieAuth – might be that you need to do that
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micro_ Ahh - that worked.
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micro_ Thank you!
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GWG Does your http redirect to https?
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GWG Still curious.
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micro_ site is available at both http and https
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loqi.me created /site (+67) "prompted by GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-19/line/1442681098832 and dfn added by micro_" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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GWG I'll go fix that
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david.shanske.com edited /site (-42) "Redirected page to [[web hosting]]" (view diff)
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@olleolleolle RT @voxpelli: Satte ihop en snabb översikt igÃ¥r över IndieWeb-rörelsen och den oberoende sociala webben (och nämner Twitter/Jaiku): http://… (twitter.com/_/status/645281075481067520)
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@giffengrabber RT @voxpelli: Satte ihop en snabb översikt igÃ¥r över IndieWeb-rörelsen och den oberoende sociala webben (och nämner Twitter/Jaiku): http://… (twitter.com/_/status/645281843558793216)
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rosetree Cheers, last week I heard the first time about the indieweb. I was really curious, cause the principles of the indieweb are what I was searching for ☺. Now after reading a few articles in the wiki, I want to become a part of the indieweb. I read in the FAQ, that you should pick one domain if you have multiple domains. But I already have two domains in use: a domain for my blog and a domain (actually a web page on a domain) as my profi
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KartikPrabhu welcome rosetree
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voxpelli rosetree: the "should" can often be read as "that's what most people do and what will therefore have the widest acceptance" :)
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voxpelli I also have two domains
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rosetree Thanks, KartikPrabhu ☺
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voxpelli And welcome btw :)
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: maybe you had a specific question but it got cut off
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rosetree I’m new to IRC, is there a max post length?
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KartikPrabhu there seems to be but I don't know what it is :) IRC is like chat you can post multiple times ;)
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rosetree ah I see. The rest of my text: “… as my profile. Is it possible to be part of the indieweb with multiple domains? Do you have an opinion about multiple domains (or pages) for persons?”
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: yes you can have multiple domains
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voxpelli IRC usually likes many shorter lines than few long ;)
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Zegnat IRC has a maximum line length, but it is a tad annoying, as it depends on your ident length and nickname length and all sort of stuff
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Zegnat has multiple domains too
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GWG It is usually easier to pick a primary one.
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GWG Even if you have multiple ones
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: for the purpose of getting started you can pick one and start on that domain
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KartikPrabhu once you get then hang of it you can extend to multiple ones if you like
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voxpelli The general opinion as I perceive it is that a single domain is preferable though – so if one isn't very invested in multiple domaisn or have strong opinions about keeping them separate – then keeping to a single one would be what I recommend
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voxpelli rosetree: any specific part of the indieweb you feel extra interested in getting started with? :)
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: if you are interested in things like cross-site commenting and posting things first to your site then the blog might be a good start
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rosetree KartikPrabhu: That’s a good advise. voxpelli: I’m currently thinking about, what I’d like to get started. What do I have enough time – and will – to start with. I’m not sure yet.
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: a good start is to try to login with your domain on the wiki
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KartikPrabhu see: https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Set_up_your_home_page_and_web_sign-in
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GWG By the way, now that people are around, I need help troubleshooting something odd
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voxpelli stepping through http://indiewebify.me/ can also be helpful
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2015/09/18/trying-to-explain-the-indieweb/
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GWG Look at the webmention from Tantek
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KartikPrabhu GWG: easier to just post your question instead of waiting for people to be around.
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rosetree Thank you for your answers btw, it seems that some have multiple domains, but most think it’s easier to start with a single domain.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: what about the mention?
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GWG It seems to have interpreted the name of the post as the author name.
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KartikPrabhu maybe because tantek has h-card in the h-feed and not h-entry. are you doing /authorship_discovery?
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micro_ I was just looking at his site for guidance in building my h-card.
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voxpelli GWG: um – the source article is gone? http://tantek.com/2015/261/f2
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micro_ tantek has h-card and vcard both as classes of the 'body'
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GWG It was there last night.
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voxpelli it's http://tantek.com/2015/261/f1 in his feed :P
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KartikPrabhu micro_: depends on whether you want to use older mf1 syntax. sticking to mf2 is fine though
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micro_ @KartikPrabhu: thanks
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voxpelli micro_: mf1 markup is completely unnecessary from an IndieWeb perspective I would say – all IndieWeb stuff was created after mf2 became big
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GWG voxpelli: Backward compatibility is a thing.
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micro_ is too new to yet know the difference between the two formats
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KartikPrabhu micro_: see: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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voxpelli GWG: but no IndieWeb tools are mf1-only – so I would say the benefits are gone unless one eg. wants Google to pick it up (Google only does mf1 I think)
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KartikPrabhu Google uses some mf1
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voxpelli but who cares about Google – right? ;)
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KartikPrabhu does not care about SEO at all
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voxpelli GWG: tantek's post looks good here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/2015/261/f1
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voxpelli no weird author name there
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GWG Either way, the plugin that handles the presentation uses the php-mf2 parser
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GWG Which pin13 does as well
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: yes looks good
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rosetree Additional question: It’s possible to use authorship information on one domain, when you publish on another, is it not? https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Set_up_your_authorship_information
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rosetree (Sorry for that IT Crowd insider ;))
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voxpelli rosetree: a "rel-me" link relation can indicate that the identity of the domain is the same as the identity indicated by another domain
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: it is. but you can patch that on later right? no need to complicate things while getting started
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KartikPrabhu a 2-way "rel-me" link
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micro_ Cheers - was looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard
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voxpelli problem is: IndieAuth and similar doesn't follow rel-me links
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KartikPrabhu micro_: start with the simplest h-card with name and URL then add other things from there
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voxpelli micro_: you can probably find some of our other sites through https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people if you want to get inspiration from our h-cards ;)
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rosetree voxpelli: ah that’s an interesting point
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micro_ Will do - thanks for the link.
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voxpelli rosetree: I can't therefore identify myself with my blog domain – because it uses a multistep rel-me relation (partly because I built a crawler that can handle that and I needed something to test it with :P )
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rosetree KartikPrabhu: I guess patching things later could be more complicated ☺ I’m working as a web developer and that’s why I am a bit careful before taking to easy steps.
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voxpelli More on rel-me: https://indiewebcamp.com/rel-me
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KartikPrabhu rosetree: think of it as progressive enhancemnt if you will ;)
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@ThatEmil RT @voxpelli: Satte ihop en snabb översikt igÃ¥r över IndieWeb-rörelsen och den oberoende sociala webben (och nämner Twitter/Jaiku): http://… (twitter.com/_/status/645289346422190080)
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rosetree Some thoughts: Maybe I have some slightly different approach that confuses me a little bit. I use a page on one domain as my vcard, where I link to places on which I publish stuff. My blog, Github or Twitter. I guess that would be the url I use to identify myself.
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GWG That should work
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GWG But the places need to link back
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rosetree You’re right. That’s why I’ve been a bit confused with my two domains.
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rosetree (I mean, you can’t specify two domains in GitHub as an example.)
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GWG They all link back to the h-card, which links to all
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voxpelli Just added Medium:esque read time estimates to my site: http://voxpelli.com/
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KartikPrabhu no like reading times
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: why not? knowing whether it's a long long article or just a short little one is pretty good– right? And word counts would be too abstract?
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rosetree voxpelli: What about scrollbar size? :)
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@zahara3 The Syrian's Story http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PV5XIXK/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_awdm_P8D9vb0F7F4QC via @amazon #selfpublish #indieauth.... http://tmi.me/1f8Tpz https://twitter.com/zahara3/status/645296803429117952/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/645296803429117952)
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voxpelli rosetree: only works on the Apple devices and requires one to open the article first ;) But yeah – I only added the read time in my article lists, not on individual article pages
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rosetree Okay…
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rosetree I like it when authors provide reading times. Would be interessting in Twitter (or Facebook) as well.
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rosetree just logged in to the wiki https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Rosetree.de_micha
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented 'Funny enough, the Phone app on my phone is also hidden inside a folder, so my first guess from looking at the URL "whats-missing-from-this-1...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/09/19/1/)
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aaronpk I just used OpenID to leave that as a comment on the blog
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moredhel .
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aaronpk I don't like the "reading time" trend either. Mostly because how can I expect the author to know how fast I read? also I tend to not actually read things all the way through, I skim first then read in more detail if it's interesting
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cweiske and you feel bad when you take longer than anticipated by the author
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cweiske (or his software)
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aaronpk b 13
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aaronpk sigh
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aaronpk is dreaming of a time where he gets to build a better IRC/comms interface for himeself
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rosetree is going to sleep now.
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rosetree Thanks again for answering my questions!
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aaronpk must..resist..
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GWG aaronpk: Resistance is futile.
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aaronpk it's true
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blueyed I am still unable to use my OpenID for some time now (https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/106); mismatch in stored/sent handle
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blueyed How could I debug this further? I'd say that nothing was changed on my side - using php-openid.
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aaronpk blueyed: I think this might be due to distributing indieauth.com onto different servers https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/99
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blueyed aaronpk: sounds like it.
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aaronpk I'm not sure what the best solution to that is
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blueyed Could there be an endpoint/subdomain that would not get load-balanced?
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aaronpk yeah, I could make all the OpenID stuff run through openid.indieauth.com
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blueyed (but I do not fully understand what's causing it, also due to lack of decent knowledge of the OpenID protocol)
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aaronpk that's kinda the problem for me too, lol. I don't know a lot of what's going on under the hood with OpenID
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blueyed Makes sense to me for now.
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aaronpk I guess it needs to share state between requests, and sometimes you end up on a different server now so you lose the state
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aaronpk it's too bad there isn't a "cookie" store for the gem https://github.com/openid/ruby-openid/tree/master/lib/openid/store
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blueyed You mean like in an encrypted/signed cookie?
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blueyed Maybe ask in the issue tracker if there is something to handle this already, or if that would make sense.
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aaronpk yeah
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blueyed For now (and if it's not too much work to configure), a separate/non-balanced subdmain would be good.
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blueyed ..and it could be enabled for load-balancing later again.
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aaronpk yeah I'll have to fiddle with that. not totally sure what it will take. I'd like to avoid requiring people change their openid delegation if possible.
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blueyed The delegate might stay, only https://indieauth.com/auth/indieauth/redirect would need to redirect to the subdomain maybe?!
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aaronpk I'd probably have to redirect the initial openid request as well
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aaronpk I think it's doable
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blueyed Great. But then you can maybe also exlude paths (/openid) from load-balancing - but that is unlikely?!
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blueyed Thanks for looking into this anyway!
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aaronpk yeah it's DNS based so it happens before I can match paths
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KevinMarks grrr. why doesn't virtualenv work when paths have spaces in
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KevinMarks if I want to use oauth-dropins I have to move to a space-free path?
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snarfed KevinMarks: huh. you mean, filesystem path to your source code?
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snarfed maybe
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snarfed i guess i've never hit that virtualenv problem
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snarfed alternatively you can try getting o-d to work outside a virtualenv
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KevinMarks I hacked the virtualenv paths to have escaped spaces in
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snarfed heh
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KevinMarks but then oauth_dropins barfs on import dev_appserver
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snarfed that import is only for the tests, right?
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snarfed that just means you need the app engine sdk in your PYTHONPATH
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/oauth-dropins#development
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KevinMarks ah, so I need that just to use it?
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snarfed i *think* only to run the tests
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snarfed you're using it in an app engine app, right?
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KevinMarks that's the plan
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snarfed ok. so right now you're running...your app in dev_appserver? your unit tests? o-d's tests? something else?
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KevinMarks OK, that got further, now tweepy is sulking
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snarfed lol sigh
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snarfed sorry for the trouble
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KevinMarks I'm still running pip install
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snarfed ohhhhhh
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KevinMarks 'cos setup.py is coughing on things
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snarfed :( ok
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snarfed you're installing o-d from pypi? or github?
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KevinMarks I was following the instructions, so pypi
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snarfed ok
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snarfed apologies
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snarfed feel free to post the tweepy error if you want
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KevinMarks File "/private/var/folders/ht/mgcpz1wn6hz214xzspvf7lmh0000gn/T/pip_build_kevinmarks/tweepy/setup.py", line 17, in <module> install_reqs = parse_requirements('requirements.txt', session=uuid.uuid1()) TypeError: parse_requirements() got an unexpected keyword argument 'session'
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snarfed also, i probably misled you. https://github.com/snarfed/oauth-dropins#quick-start is for using o-d. https://github.com/snarfed/oauth-dropins#development is for hacking on it. let me know if the docs were unclear on that
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snarfed ok looking
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snarfed huh interesting. that error smells like you need a pip upgrade, but i'm not sure
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KevinMarks right, I wanted to use it, but it still wanted the dev_appserver
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snarfed good point, i'll add that
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KevinMarks pip install --upgrade pip helped
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KevinMarks recursion: see recursion
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snarfed :P
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KevinMarks also, 'The filenames for app keys and secrets also differ by site; appengine_config.py has the full list.' is linked to the wrong appengine_config
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snarfed ah, thanks! good find.
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KevinMarks hm, is there an advantage to using the google dropin over native appengine auth?
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snarfed you still get a lot of sugar around the url routing
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snarfed well, actually, i'm not sure how much extra
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snarfed so, i don't know :P
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KevinMarks the native appengine auth is ugly on mobile- the scope login isn't responsive
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snarfed right true
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snarfed od is also nice if you want to handle multiple providers and standardize your code
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KevinMarks right, that was the hope
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KevinMarks nope, you still get the non-responsive google accounts login with ©2011 in
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snarfed sigh
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snarfed with o-d?
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snarfed weird. it definitely uses the g+ api, not app engine
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KevinMarks who do I tease about that now? tim bray quit
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snarfed a while back
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snarfed my guess is it's orphaned :P
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KevinMarks talk about a history of previous mistakes: https://developers.google.com/identity/choose-auth
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KevinMarks https://oauth-dropins.appspot.com gives a 400 fro twitter because no sockets API
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snarfed ugh, thnks
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snarfed bit rot
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snarfed that's easy to fix at least
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KevinMarks hm, I think the bad mobile ui is only if you have multiple google accounts
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KevinMarks ah, it's if I login with a non-google email address that has later had a gmail address added
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KevinMarks that explains why they don't see it much