#indiewebcamp 2015-09-22

2015-09-22 UTC
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tantek and more on event / RSVP UI - again, from FB - you can now see who else who has been invited to an event has "seen" that invitation!
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M-Kodo Read receipts always seemed like a privacy issue to me
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aaronpk I always turn off read receipts
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M-Kodo I mean in general
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M-Kodo Like the Facebook "seen" thing
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M-Kodo It's a type of surveillance
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tantek M-Kodo - some people seem to like them?
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tantek As an event organizer, if I see that people aren't even seeing invitations, then that's a good signal that I should contact them in other ways
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tantek I'll be watching it with all the people we invite to this week's HWC SF
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[number5] tantek: love those principles, especially the last one
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: might I suggest not using the Stature of Liberty on /principles . Makes it appear very US-centric
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Do you know if that blind woman with the scales is US centric, out of curiosity?
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KartikPrabhu you mean Lady Justice. afaik that symbolism is more ancient than the Statue of Liberty and more widely used. It is even present in courts in India and is used as a symbol in art/films in India
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GWG So, what is a universal symbol for liberty?
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GWG Or freedom?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: note I did not say Lady Justice was universal ;)
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GWG Not sure if you can get 100% universal. Just majority.
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KartikPrabhu don't really see the need for a "symbolic" picture on /principles
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'd like better graphics for Indiewebcamp in general.
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GWG Different shaped logos, maybe some icons for use on my site...
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KartikPrabhu for that there is the indieweb logo already
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I feel there aren't enough variants there for my use
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KartikPrabhu variants of what kind?
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GWG The logo. I could go for a nice square version
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KartikPrabhu what is logo?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/logo
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KartikPrabhu there ^
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GWG I'm not sure I like the shuttered square
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KartikPrabhu there are other square ones in there too
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gRegorLove GWG: Old school http://www.kalsey.com/tools/buttonmaker/button.php?outerBorder=666666&innerBorder=FFFFFF&barPosition=5&leftFill=FF3300&leftText=&leftTextColor=ffffff&leftTextPosition=0&rightFill=FFFFFF&rightText=indiewebcamp&rightTextColor=000000&rightTextPosition=11
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GWG Cute
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gRegorLove Via http://www.kalsey.com/tools/buttonmaker/
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[number5] that reminds me Dave Winer’s blog posts always have a :cactus: at the end...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: really? but you're US-based, thus is this a hypothetical 3rd person worry?
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 20 minutes ago: might I suggest not using the Stature of Liberty on /principles . Makes it appear very US-centric http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-21/line/1442883588347
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tantek In particular, using a Japanese extension (emoji) to an international standard (Unicode) of a French gift to the US.
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tantek let's consider it if anyone non-US brings up a complaint - I'm not going to worry about "someone might be upset" type hypotheticals
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tantek more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_liberty - represents a Roman goddess
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tantek carries a tablet with the American (point) Declaration of Indepedence <-- quite on the mark for an "Independent" Web
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tantek the other international symbolism of the Statue of Liberty (<-- a principle) is that it was intended as a welcoming symbol for people arriving in New York from all over the world
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I am a non-US :)
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tantek and here I thought you lived in Chicago ;)
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KartikPrabhu live yes, but I am not American
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tantek but in all seriousness - definitely interested in opinions from folks living outside the US as well
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Loqi [mention] Justin Ormont RSVPd maybe to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/0ptqE1d41cV-r0u7W7eWPw
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GWG Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free
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M-Kodo what's a good general wiki 'language'
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M-Kodo Thinking about implementing my own wiki
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M-Kodo by language i mean for the markup
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M-Kodo not for the app
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M-Kodo I think people in here use media wiki
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M-Kodo is there a special name for their markup or is it just called media wiki?
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[aaronpk] Mediawiki is definitely its own style of markup. A lot of it I like better than markdown, but some of mediawiki is annoying
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[number5] M-Kodo: all the wikis have their own markup, some have tried to create a common wiki markup http://www.wikicreole.org/ but apparently not very successful
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[number5] M-Kodo: more examples: https://www.dokuwiki.org/wiki:syntax <https://moinmo.in/HelpOnMoinWikiSyntax>
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tantek I tend to agree with aaronpk. I've gotten used to a lot of the quirks of MediaWiki "markup" but it's still not very obvious, and more people seem to learn Markdown better.
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jeena.net edited /events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club (-58) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
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jeena.net edited /events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club (+94) "/* Göteborg */ jeena" (view diff)
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Jeena West-coast swedes, don't forget the HWC in Gothenburg tomorrow https://jeena.net/events/5
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Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message on 9/21 at 8:32am: could yo update the Göteborg location on https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-21/line/1442849522210
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Loqi [mention] someone posted http://deburca.co.uk/trackback-pingback-webmentions/ that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention, http://indiewebcamp.com/pingback, and http://indiewebcamp.com/Trackback https://webmention.io/notification/Nx4e2xImv08R54wQcKO_zw
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ben_thatmustbeme Good morning #indiewebcamp
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snarfed hey ben_thatmustbeme!
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ben_thatmustbeme seems to be a slow morning
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voxpelli Good morning!
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jefflarkin.com created /Template:jefflarkin.com (+148) "Added signing template for myself." (view diff)
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jefflarkin.com edited /events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club (+21) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning
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adactio.com edited /events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club (+2) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-09-23-homebrew-website-club (+14) "comment out other Brighton sections" (view diff)
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@devleakslinks Yes, Web is the way to go. #indieweb #opensource https://twitter.com/lukew/status/646354986641653760 (twitter.com/_/status/646355933732343809)
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@portiLinks IndieNews: http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/646360595164368896)
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tommorris.org edited /site-deaths (+212) "/* Upcoming */ adding Comcast/Xfinity Personal Web Pages" (view diff)
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tommorris Comcast's personal site hosting is going bye-bye. thus disproving the "if you pay for it, it'll stick around" rule. people pay their ADSL provider quite a substantial amount and they'll still delete your shit.
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gregorlove.com edited /photo (+263) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I didn't even know they offered that
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gRegorLove (Comcast)
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kylewm yeah, quite a long time since i've seen a home.comcast.net/~username URL
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aaronpk https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahome.comcast.net
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kylewm noticing a pattern ... username.home.comcast.net/~username
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tantek what is Comcast?
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Loqi Comcast is a service provider that provides internet access to businesses and personal homes https://indiewebcamp.com/Comcast
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tantek what is Xfinity?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Xfinity" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1037
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tantek what is ADSL?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ADSL" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1038
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gRegorLove /Flickr can be updated with Bridgy backfeed (and POSSE?)
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stephentpollard.com edited /sync (+71) "/* WebDAV */" (view diff)
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stephentpollard.com edited /sync (+38) "/* CalDAV */" (view diff)
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stephentpollard.com edited /sync (+39) "/* CardDAV */" (view diff)
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Zegnat what is facebook?
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Loqi Facebook is a popular content hosting silo and activity aggregator most well known for being the largest centralized social network on the web https://indiewebcamp.com/Facebook
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tantek what is sync?
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Loqi sync is short for synchronize / synchronizing (AKA syncing) / synchronization and refers to the process of keeping data consistent between two or more devices (including servers) https://indiewebcamp.com/sync
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Zegnat Looks like Facebook might allow us to POSSE through RSS if Instant Articles ever open up to the general public: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/instant-articles - might be worth keeping an eye on
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aaronpk oh interesting
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KevinMarks wodners if https://oauth-dropins.appspot.com should have an indieauth one
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@myfreeweb @icicle posting jams on own websites :-) https://indiewebcamp.com/jam (twitter.com/_/status/646422667113988096)
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snarfed KevinMarks: ooh yes it should!
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snarfed send me a PR!! :P
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KevinMarks I'll need to get it building first ;)
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tantek might as well open an issue first :)
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@rajadain RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646428774737838080)
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@rich_wallace RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646428457455497216)
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@CodeRyann RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646428084355379202)
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@amyjokim RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646427844038557696)
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646427009678110720)
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@alicedaer RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646426749882904576)
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@kevinmarks “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646426450799652866)
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KevinMarks interesting display order, loqi. maybe you need to collapse twitter likes/retwetts too
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tantek KevinMarks: you lost me - how is that Slack tweet indieweb related?
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@ricardoaraujo RT @kevinmarks: “Slack is the product of game thinking”Š—”Šnot gamification.” - @amyjokim https://medium.com/@amyjokim/bots-mods-multiplayer-co-op-why-slack-is-game-like-not-gamified-bb1b7ac93c04 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/646434828771061761)
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snarfed tantek: congrats on http://tantek.com/2015/265/t1/social-web-wg-first-improved-license ! also, i'm curious, why put links in footnotes as opposed to just linking the phrases directly?
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snarfed looks like a deliberate choice?
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tantek easier to type as plain text
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tantek and creating plain text typing patterns that I expect to analyze in the future for auto-linking
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tantek that is, much prettier default presentation than anything Markdown makes you do
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snarfed huh, ok. so you would have happily linked the phrases if it was easy to author that at the time?
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tantek also optimized for getting more text content into a tweet (since links cost 23 characters)
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tantek without having to write separate custom tweet POSSE text
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tantek yes, optimizing for ease of authoring is super important IMO
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tantek and no way I'm going to author ugly Markdown style links
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tantek I want my plain text to look good as plain text
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snarfed heh, ok
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snarfed just curious
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tantek unlike Markdown's link markup's sacrifice of its primary principle
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tantek besides, yay typography!
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Loqi woot
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bear i'm curious why the * is not also defined down in the footer with the ”  one
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KevinMarks the Slack post by Amy Jo was very interesting in UX terms and amde me think about indieweb approaches
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snarfed interesting. looking at your feed, you're consistent in that you almost never hyperlink text phrases. pretty much the only links in your posts are twitter user mentions and URLs
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aaronpk I also don't hyperlink text phrases except in articles
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snarfed (likes are an exception, the link text is the post title. i'm guessing that's semi automated)
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snarfed aaronpk: interesting
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tantek bear - it's inline - again, deliberately so it shows up in POSSE tweet copy
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aaronpk to me, it's not a text post if there is markup in it
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snarfed i guess i never really got that into social networks, so i never developed patterns for them
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snarfed (maybe. who knows.)
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tantek snarfed - yes - likes are fairly automated - the only requirement for my like posts is the link - and my code generates reasonable automatic link text (using site, author, post type from whatever it can inspect from the URL)
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tantek though I can choose to customize the linktext of a like
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tantek in the cases where the algorithm produces too plain of a result or where I want to explicitly include more information (Author's full name, full name of link destination, etc.)
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bear to me links are so much a part of the web that I put up with a bit of creation pain to enable link crawling when viewed
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tantek aaronpk - agreed re: "it's not a text post if there is markup in it" <-- and that's exactly why Markdown doesn't follow it's own principles.
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tantek s/it's own/its own/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk - agreed re: "it's not a text post if there is markup in it" <-- and that's exactly why Markdown doesn't follow its own principles.
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tantek bear - I may add footnote symbol detection and autolinking to my CASSIS auto_link function at some point
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tantek point is - even as plain text it works just fine - which is how plain-text-first design is supposed to work
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tantek it was also a fun excuse to experiment with daggers
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tantek hence yay typography :)
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Loqi :D
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bear my only quibble is that in a text post viewed online you don't know where the bottom is necessarily to go look for a footnote text
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tantek bear - sounds like a theoretical quibble - since my text posts with footnotes are all short enough for the bottom to be self-evident. counter-examples welcome.
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bear so yea, +1 on getting your auto_link function to make the footnote symbols anchor to the footnote definitions
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bear "short enough" presumes knowledge of viewing screen size
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tantek BTW it's amazing how much you can get done by dismissing theoretical quibbles.
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bear is working thru some of the questions your post raised in my own mind, not trying to be combative
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tantek bear - fair enough about screen size assumption
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tantek on my ipod (just checked) required scrolling half a screen worth - which people do reflexively (single touch flick see text bounce at bottom) so that's good enough for me for a trivially (even reflexively) discoverable "where the bottom is"
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tantek but beyond that - I agree - the footnote hyperlink pattern starts to become increasingly annoying for the reader
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tantek (probably why I use footnotes so rarely)
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tantek also can I just say it's still magic to me the way Bridgy makes my POSSE copies of posts on FB look so good.
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bear I just checked on the tablet (which I hold landscape because that is where the widest margin is) -- and yea, your tendancy to shorter posts makes most of the quibbles exactly that - quibbles
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tantek I'm not making *any* customizations for that (not putting any explicit thought into authoring for FB or Bridgy)
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tantek bear it's worth documenting such quibbles perhaps as warnings - in the "there be dragons here" edge of the map kind of thing
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tantek Bridgy++
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Loqi Bridgy has 25 karma
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bear bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 26 karma
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snarfed thanks all! glad to hear it
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aaronpk bridgy++ just because
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Loqi bridgy has 27 karma
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loqi.me created /etag (+254) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /Google_Contacts (+340) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek I've updated my legacy Atom feed to only provide the most recent item - due to bandwidth abuse by dumb Atom consuming code/bots etc.
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tantek legacy feed = 1 item only.
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gRegorLove How much bandwidth were they eating?
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snarfed :cry:
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kevinmarks.com edited /etag (+898) "discussion of how to do this dynamically" (view diff)
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KevinMarks tantek: does that help?
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tantek also this is interesting: http://www.projecthoneypot.org/harvester_useragents.php
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tantek what are User Agents?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "User Agents" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103J
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tantek what is a UA?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "UA" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103K
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kylewm User Agents are /user-agent
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loqi.me created /User_Agents (+23) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-22/line/1442964046458 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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kylewm UA is /user-agent
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loqi.me created /UA (+23) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-22/line/1442964053277 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /user-agent (+140) "stub, ''', linky linky, resources project honeypot, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /user-agent (+114) "blocking bad bots resource" (view diff)
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