#indiewebcamp 2015-10-07

2015-10-07 UTC
nitot and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] Dharmishta Rood, Shing Wong, and Kat Lucky were invited to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/6j66-aQz44D6pfVArEhVIA
nitot joined the channel
#
david.shanske.com edited /h-feed (+226) (view diff)
#
GWG tantek: Does that explain the issue I was talking about?
#
tantek GWG, not quite - I'm hoping you can provide specific examples?
#
tantek the challenge here is that theoretically I can imagine how any page *could* have a reasonable h-feed
#
tantek e.g. a post permalink could contain a nested h-feed of the responses to it!
#
tantek nearly any page could have a nested h-feed of the revisions to the page!
#
GWG tantek: But this is a top-level h-feed
#
tantek GWG, e.g. here's a concrete example of a "random" page with a top level h-feed (because there was nothing else I could think of to markup?) http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/favelets/
#
tantek the point is that simply the presence of an h-feed is not bad nor a problem per se
#
tantek I suppose I should ask that question
#
tantek what is the problem?
#
tantek oops
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "problem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1046
#
tantek The problem is that when you ask what is the problem, you need to be more specific.
#
loqi.me created /problem (+106) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-06/line/1444181060540 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek.com edited /problem (+4) "The" (view diff)
#
tantek GWG, what specific problem are you encountering with a top level h-feed?
#
GWG tantek: My objection is that people are just putting it in without thought. It is a decision become copied over and over again.
#
tantek extraneous markup?
#
tantek sounds like something we can perhaps suggest for indiewebify.me
#
GWG tantek: This is the same decision in WordPress that has hentry automatically added to everything. The implementation was wrong when they did it, and it has just propogated.
#
tantek that is - noticing that there is an extraneous h-feed, and reporting it as an error
#
tantek GWG, but that decision is not completely wrong either - h-entry is a very good default top level microformat for a page
#
GWG I was reporting it as a bug.
#
GWG WordPress uses two class functions to automatically insert classes...body_class and post_class.
#
tantek GWG, I think the real problem here is that the semantic markup is being split across core and templates
#
GWG tantek: What's the solution for that?
#
tantek whereas it really should be all in one or the other
#
GWG Templating makes sense in some cases.
#
tantek because when it is split across core and templates, it's nearly impossible for EITHER side to fix it!
#
tantek GWG, nah, if you can't put all of the default markup in core, then it should all be put into templates
#
tantek this may be a WordPress architectural issue - the fact that core has a body_class and post_class at all is likely a mistake
#
tantek whereas the solution would be to empower a template to control the entire page markup
#
tantek and have ZERO markup in "core"
#
tantek and then different kinds of templates for different pages etc.
wolftune joined the channel
#
tantek one should be able to completely change the markup without touching core code
#
tantek that is, by only editing templates
#
tantek so this is a bigger WordPress architectural problem than just "too many hfeeds or too many hentrys"
#
tantek happy to have snarfed, or any other WordPress users here review my reasoning / find any flaws.
#
GWG But every time I talk to the themers, they say it is a core issue.
#
GWG The core people say it is a theme issue
#
GWG I can't win on this one.
#
tantek You can point out that it's a core architectural issues, because core should not be interfering with markup - that's the theme's job and responsibility.
#
tantek The themers are right. When the core people say it is a theme issue - ask them, how do they propose a theme "undo" the markup that is hard coded in core?
#
tantek BTW this is probably worth capturing in /template
#
tantek.com edited /template (+710) "WordPress Template Issues" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /template (+1) "/* = WordPress Template Issues */ =" (view diff)
#
tantek GWG, please feel free to capture more (e.g. citations to your conversations) here https://indiewebcamp.com/template#WordPress
#
tantek if we can't fix WordPress core, at least we can document the architectural error so that other implementations don't make the same mistake
#
tantek and maybe someday someone will be able to fix WordPress core, maybe they even have an outstanding issue on this!
#
GWG tantek: I filed one.
#
GWG tantek: I've been working on other issues. I just closed a 9 year old issue for them about pingbacks.
#
tantek whoa!
#
tantek GWG, great - please add citations to the issues you file!
#
GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3491
#
GWG If you don't believe me
#
tantek nicely done
#
GWG I'm trying to build credibility.
nitot joined the channel
#
tantek GWG, it's a very worthy approach
wolftune and KevinMarks joined the channel
#
KevinMarks GWG I love that you closed a 9-year old bug that references a dead site
#
GWG KevinMarks: I was looking for low hanging fruit. I'm trying to get to: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/32653
#
KevinMarks also that it was redmonk implementing votelinks https://web.archive.org/web/20070315161737/http://redmonk.net/archives/2006/12/21/voteback/
#
GWG https://developer.wordpress.org/reference/classes/wp_xmlrpc_server/pingback_ping/
#
GWG KevinMarks: This is the WordPress Pingback code. It really needs a massive update.
#
GWG If only I was better at parsing. I always had issues with that.
#
@Covata EU Court of Justice rules Safe Harbor invalid due to insufficient personal data protection #OwnYourData http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-eu-ireland-privacy-idUSKCN0S00NT20151006 (twitter.com/_/status/651589031130726401)
#
tantek what does that even mean?
shaunguice joined the channel
#
tantek massive FB invitations for tomorrow's HWC SF finally sent out
#
tantek let's see how the Bridgy clustering works
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
@StuajonesA RT @Covata: EU Court of Justice rules Safe Harbor invalid due to insufficient personal data protection #OwnYourData http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-eu-ireland-privacy-idUSKCN0S00NT20151006 (twitter.com/_/status/651593182900162560)
#
Loqi [mention] someone posted https://itskevin.com/2015/10/06/indieweb/ that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/ and https://indiewebcamp.com/PESOS https://webmention.io/notification/8EskRRYsLM9r6w81irGN_Q
wolftune joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] Kevin Smokler, Ben Moskowitz, George Kelly, Colleen Taylor, Atul Varma, Lawrence Lessig, Cariwyl Hebert, David Baron, Jay Zalowitz, Justin David Kruger, Stephanie Vacher, Stacey Rivet, Marie Williams, Jeff Hodsdon, Jeffrey Veen, Megs ORorke, Erin Stevenson O'Connor, Olya Lapina, Daniel Appelquist, Evan Prodromou, Chris Heuer, Stephen Wyatt Bush, James Craig, Tony Rai, Michael Owens, Joël Franusic, Kara Murphy, Loic Le Meur, Amy MacKinnon, Zibi Braniecki, Jeff Rider, Thomas Vander Wal, Kitt Hodsden, Jesse Vincent, C Alaric Moore, Stephanie Haupt Sullivan Rewis, Simon Law, Zoe Schiffer, Brian Behlendorf, Martin Atkins, Christine Herron, Paul Hammond, Beau Smith, Charles Hope, Jen Bradburn, Matthew Levine, Christopher Carfi, Mo Kudeki, Peter Hirshberg, Lizz Noonan, Nima Dilmaghani, Om Malik, Cari Levay, Laura Helen Winn, Pius Uzamere, Jeremy Anderson, Matt Schaar, Carla Borsoi, Joichi Ito, Jordan McArthur, Thor Muller, Brynn Evans, Yan XZ, Jessica Suttles, Ben Metcalfe, Adam Rifkin, Nate Koechley, Mar
#
Loqi [mention] Jina Anne RSVPd no to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/SwGVRaAVyX173liz13SAJg
#
Loqi [mention] PJ Khalil RSVPd maybe to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/r2i4N9dBdDBJx6EdXtdAOA
#
Loqi [mention] Jet Villegas, Sarah Austin, Kyle Huey, Zack Fischmann, Laura Gluhanich, and Tom Coates were invited to https://webmention.io/notification/7ETuA4OvuXERenfOqk5k0Q
nitot joined the channel
#
aaronpk omg etherpad.mozilla.org is gone
#
aaronpk good thing we archive all that content to our wiki regularly
benwerd joined the channel
#
KevinMarks ouch
#
KevinMarks site-deaths update
#
aaronpk looks like they're making the plaintext content available at a new URL base
#
aaronpk https://old.etherpad-mozilla.org/indiewebcamp
#
aaronpk https://old.etherpad-mozilla.org/indiewebcamp-indieauth
#
wagle noobs might be interested in https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:W3Cx+HTML5.1x+4T2015/info which is so far a fairly detailed course on html5, including microdata etc
#
KevinMarks microdata isn't part of html5
#
KevinMarks search http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ - no microdata in it
#
wagle ok, they explain it, but i'm reading fast
#
wagle i bring up microdata since one of my projects here is grokking it, where-ever it fits into the puzzle
#
wagle they dont actually say its part of html5
#
wagle but you might be forgiven for assuming that since they bring it up in week 1 of the mooc
#
KevinMarks well, it's not implemented in any browser http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/153772
wolftune joined the channel
#
KevinMarks https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/b54nW_mGSVU/87CLF5jmPdoJ
#
aaronpk yup that's kind of unfortunately the problem with that course
#
wagle well, huh
#
wagle google apparently can see it: https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/
#
KevinMarks right, that was part of google 'format of the month' advice
todrobbins joined the channel
#
wagle well, i'm pretty ignorant of the whole html/css/whatever-version-of-out-of-band-data-you-are-using, so I hope learning about microdata transfers to others
#
KevinMarks well, here you'll here a lot about microformats
#
KevinMarks s/here a/hear a/
#
Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: well, here you'll hear a lot about microformats
#
wagle ok.. it was micro-something-or-other... 8/
#
wagle http://web.archive.org/web/20131125153723/http://www.sencha.com/blog/the-html5-family-microdata-overview/ "a part of the html5 family" (???)
#
KevinMarks if you already know html and a bit of css, microformats re easy to understand
#
wagle not arguing, just trying to make sense of the big picture
nitot joined the channel
#
KevinMarks they're a set of conventions for using classes to make the page easier to extract data from
#
KevinMarks microdata instead takes the approach of adding a lot of extra properties that often duplicate the data
#
wagle http://tools.seomoves.org/microdata/
#
wagle .. ah ok.. i'm agnostic
#
wagle i'm just reporting a small selection of what the mooc points me at
#
wagle .. trying to figure out why this guy seems to be claiming that microdata is "real"
#
wagle meh: http://miageprojet2.unice.fr/Intranet_de_Michel_Buffa/Outils_de_validation_HTML5%2F%2Fextensions_de_navigateurs
#
wagle i'm figure it out, eventually
#
wagle i'll
#
KevinMarks microdata was Ian's attempt to make up a syntax that was somewhere between RDF and mciroformats
#
todrobbins JSON-LD is looking like a good evolution
#
KevinMarks unlike the rest of his editorial work, he was less focused on implementations
#
KevinMarks of what, todrobbins?
#
todrobbins of encoding a set of RDF modelled data for consumption by the client/spider
#
wagle ah...
#
todrobbins it’s compact yet expressive, at least to most developers
#
todrobbins especially when compared to previous encodings of RDF. Microformats and microdata are great too
#
todrobbins I’m not trying to malign those efforts at all.
#
KevinMarks yes, it's a good dynamic language represention of RDF concepts
#
KevinMarks no it's not a good thing to put in web pages
#
KevinMarks it's a regression from RDFa there
#
KevinMarks I wrote a post that is somewhat related to this http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
#
todrobbins KevinMarks, I’ll read that
#
todrobbins Thanks for sharing
#
todrobbins you don’t think JSON-LD should be included in a script tag on a page? A kind of sidecar metadata file?
#
aaronpk what is a sidefile?
#
Loqi The sidefile-antipattern is a violation of the DRY principle by the use of secondary files (typically in some one-off XML format) to provide information that is a duplicate of information available in primary files on a website (in HTML), and is an antipattern due to typical DRY violation problems such as out-of-date, missing, corrupted, or outright false data https://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile
#
KevinMarks it's nto really showing mciroformats best practices, as there's lots of that here, but it is a mapling between them
klickreflex joined the channel
#
KevinMarks hi klickreflex, how's the instagram replacing going?
#
KevinMarks if you're going to include JSON-LD in a page, it would make sence to put it in a script tag and assign it to a variable, so it is at least accessible to code running in the page
#
KevinMarks that's still an antipattern, but it is a semi-useful one
#
todrobbins KevinMarks: gotcha
#
KevinMarks what is js;dr
#
Loqi js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indiewebcamp.com/js;dr
#
todrobbins That makes sense. Sidefile is probably the wrong way to describe my example. Loqi, good reference to js;dr
#
KevinMarks the problem wiht sidefiles, especially ones that have nothing to do with the construction of the page, is that they rot
#
KevinMarks you see that in the JSON-LD example I link to from my post
#
wagle thsnk for the info! (i'm busy with this test now)
#
todrobbins Which is why the argument is to just embed the data in the markup itself
#
todrobbins ?
#
aaronpk i guess sidefile doesn't quite describe JSON-LD islands, but it's still DRY
#
KevinMarks well, it's likely a sidefile before browserify touches it...
#
todrobbins aaronpk: by JSON-LD islands, you mean a script tag with a JSON-LD object at the end of an HTML doc?
#
aaronpk yeah, that's a common term for it as far as i can tell
#
todrobbins or even a separate .json file in the same dir on the server?
#
todrobbins cool, thanks
#
KevinMarks that would be a sidefile
#
todrobbins right
#
KevinMarks aaronpk has another approach
#
aaronpk "JSON-LD can be provided as islands embedded in HTML" http://www.seoskeptic.com/json-ld-google-knowledge-graph-schema-org-seo/
#
KevinMarks you cna get any of his pages as json because he will parse the html for you
#
todrobbins so does microformats support linked data in the attribute values?
#
aaronpk heh from that same page "The challenge is keeping the JSON-LD data in sync with what appears on the page"
#
KevinMarks so eg https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/14/1/swat0 can also be https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/14/1/swat0.json
#
todrobbins meaning, attributes (foaf, for instance) and values (URIs)
#
KevinMarks which is the same as running http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes%2F2015%2F07%2F14%2F1%2Fswat0
#
aaronpk I suppose so! what would that look like...
#
KevinMarks or indeed http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes%2F2015%2F07%2F14%2F1%2Fswat0&html=&pretty=on
#
aaronpk mf2 is ultimately a relatively small set of parsing rules, and the parsing rules are not connected with the vocabulary at all
#
KevinMarks in general, instead of attributes it uses text, html, urls, dates from the page
#
todrobbins does microformats place vocabulary in a secondary rank? I need to refresh my understanding of the current state of microformats, but it seems there wasn’t much crosswalking/sensemaking between the what hcard might describe and what some other ontology/vocab/what-have-you similarly described
#
KevinMarks yes, that was the key change with microformats 2
#
todrobbins I should note I come from a information science background, so you’ll have to forgive my angle at times
#
todrobbins ah cool
#
Loqi +1
#
KevinMarks there's now a consistent parsing model that si not bound to vocabulary http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
#
todrobbins then that’s what I need to study
#
todrobbins haha
#
KevinMarks we have backwards compatible parsing form microformats 1 in the parsers too
#
todrobbins ps: aaronpk that SWAT0 demo is the bananas
#
KevinMarks but you cna express any vocabulary in mf2, which was the point of my schema post
#
todrobbins cna? (sorry!)
#
KevinMarks s/cna/can/
#
Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: but you can express any vocabulary in mf2, which was the point of my schema post
#
todrobbins ah gotcha, this is really helpful guys
#
todrobbins thanks!
#
KevinMarks and we have a lot of existing parsers in multiple languages that parse consistently
#
KevinMarks (with tests)
#
todrobbins where should I read to get up to speed on mf2?
#
todrobbins besides https://indiewebcamp.com/ of course
#
aaronpk i think this is a good intro to mf2 in general http://microformats.org/2014/03/05/getting-started-with-microformats2
#
todrobbins and… http://microformats.org/wiki/
#
todrobbins thanks aaronpk
#
todrobbins do any of the Schema partners index mf2?
#
todrobbins do they display customized search results based on h-card, for instance?
#
KevinMarks some of them index mf1
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KevinMarks it's not very clear tbh; what search engines index is always a bit hit and miss as a lot of it is heuristics
#
aaronpk that was a fun little exercise
#
aaronpk I tried adpting the radio episode example from KevinMarks' post to a slightly different JSON-LD representation in mf2
#
aaronpk http://pin13.net/scratch/mf2-schema.html and http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpin13.net%2Fscratch%2Fmf2-schema.html
#
aaronpk it's very close
#
KevinMarks h-http:\/\/schema.org\/RadioSeries what?
#
aaronpk (I expanded the @context from the JSON-LD example)
#
todrobbins brb
#
KevinMarks is that why the dates are crap again?
#
KevinMarks does the JSON-LD just not do dates right?
#
aaronpk oops no i just forgot the dt-
#
KevinMarks the irony being so did the schema people
#
KevinMarks on this page, only 1 example has ISO dates in the JSON-LD https://schema.org/BroadcastService
#
aaronpk "19:45 on the 2nd of June" is really not an ISO date right?
#
KevinMarks it's certainly not the one true format; it may be one of the innumerable variants, but it doen't look like any of them either
#
KevinMarks it's not any of the ones in this list, for example https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/date-parsing.html
nitot and todrobbins joined the channel
#
aaronpk i think i got comment/like/repost handling done for my new site
#
Loqi [bridgy] Henne Vogelsang replied '@jkphl awesome!' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/henne/status/651349968565981184)
cweiske joined the channel
#
KevinMarks with webactions?
#
aaronpk hah no
#
aaronpk i'm just trying to get back to par with my current site
#
aaronpk i want to launch this ASAP, *then* I will start adding new features
#
aaronpk I just don't want to launch with too many features lost
#
aaronpk getting there. hope to make more progress during tomorrow's HWC
#
todrobbins what is ‘h-http'
#
todrobbins for instance ‘h-http://schema.org/OnDemandEvent'
#
todrobbins h-card http type?
#
KevinMarks what is that, aaronpk?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "that, aaronpk" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1047
nitot joined the channel
#
@dangillmor @kevinmarks yes; IndieWeb kinds of things are the best long-term answer for a lot of this @mmasnick @pmarca (twitter.com/_/status/651638278664376320)
#
@kevinmarks RT @dangillmor: @kevinmarks yes; IndieWeb kinds of things are the best long-term answer for a lot of this @mmasnick @pmarca (twitter.com/_/status/651638337741045761)
#
@kevinmarks RT @dangillmor: @kevinmarks yes; IndieWeb kinds of things are the best long-term answer for a lot of this @mmasnick @pmarca (twitter.com/_/status/651638423447404544)
#
KevinMarks hm, twitter glitch retweeted twice
#
kylewm todrobbins: that's a weird shim to represent a schema.org vocabulary in microformats
#
kylewm h-http... that is
#
KevinMarks hm, so if i subscribe to a wordpress site in woodwindas hfeed, it doesn't get timestamps?
#
todrobbins thanks kylewm
#
todrobbins good night all! And thank you KevinMarks and aaronpk for being patient with my questions
#
Loqi goodnight!
tantek joined the channel
#
KevinMarks I want http://www.aldaily.com/ as an hfeed
#
kylewm KevinMarks: does the wordpress hfeed specify 'published' dates?
#
tantek aaronpk that's a bummer about etherpad.mozilla.org - odd that it was handled that way with the old.etherpad-mozilla
#
tantek guess we have a bunch of links to fix?
#
tantek and I have no idea how many open tabs I have for etherpad.mozilla.org on how many machines. sigh.
#
tantek not sure we've actually archived all sessions to the wiki
#
tantek what is a mooc?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mooc" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1048
#
tantek what are data islands?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "data islands" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1049
loic_m joined the channel
#
tantek data islands are defunct technique for adding DRY-violating invisible data to HTML pages (AKA sidecar metadata), first introduced then abandoned by Microsoft as XML Data Islands, and more recently, by Google as JSON(LD) embedded in HTML.
#
loqi.me created /data_islands (+264) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-06/line/1444198529403 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
lukebrooker and fkooman joined the channel
#
@kevinmarks @rsarver @spolsky some of us have ideas http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/replacing-comments-with-external-posts #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/651657412827443200)
friedcell, sanduhrs, eschnou, tvn, lewisnyman, j12t, petermolnar, elf-pavlik and nitot joined the channel
#
KevinMarks nice http://svgur.com/s/2B
lewisnyman, friedcell, nitot and eschnou joined the channel
#
KevinMarks first mention fo html5 on twitter https://twitter.com/benward/status/882773
#
@benward Wonders how on earth the WHATWG list went from zero to 700 unread messages without him noticing. Elects not to start writing ‘This week in HTML5’ ever. (twitter.com/_/status/882773)
lewisnyman_ and j12t joined the channel
#
harryreeder.co.uk edited /next-hwc (+0) "HWC Europe Over, Next HWC -> HWC US" (view diff)
KevinMarks__, Tino, alexhartley, j12t, KevinMarks___ and KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
@dominik It looks like Twitter broke IndieAuth be putting a http://t.co short url into the rel=”me”… https://lostfocus.de/13048-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/651707646387580928)
#
@dominik It looks like Twitter broke IndieAuth by putting a http://t.co short url into the rel=”me”… https://lostfocus.de/13048-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/651707891355938817)
ttepasse and j12t joined the channel
#
@Rosaemerald RT @Lottejackson: Homebrew website club is back tomorrow. Come and join us from 6pm - 7:30pm. https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club (twitter.com/_/status/651711119246118912)
#
@lostfocus It Looks Like Twitter Broke Indieauth By Putting A http://T.co Short Url Into The Rel=”me” Link. Ugh. https://lostfocus.de/13048-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/651713145451491329)
loic_m, KevinMarks__, mlncn, j12t, KevinMarks, KevinMarks_, nitot, friedcell, davidmead and eschnou joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme !tell aaronpk do you have a list of all the push notifications (phone notifications) that you have needed? Such as 'tagged you in a photo' ' mentioned you' etc
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
elf-pavlik, hs0ucy, snarfed, snarfed1, friedcell, tvn, mlncn, peacekeep3r and lewisnyman joined the channel
#
aaronpk good morning
#
Loqi aaronpk: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 1 hour, 32 minutes ago: do you have a list of all the push notifications (phone notifications) that you have needed? Such as 'tagged you in a photo' ' mentioned you' etc http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444223241764
#
aaronpk good question
#
aaronpk so I saw this on twitter this morning and thought it was a joke/parody
#
aaronpk https://www.ampproject.org/
#
aaronpk "The Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) Project is an open source initiative that embodies the vision that publishers can create mobile optimized content once and have it load instantly everywhere."
#
aaronpk I thought it was going to be a joke promotion to get publishers to write plain HTML pages with no javascript bogging down the page
#
aaronpk "AMP HTML is a new way to make web pages that are optimized to load instantly on users’ mobile devices."
#
aaronpk turns out it's not a joke, but is basically that
#
aaronpk a "subset" of HTML
elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
Zegnat But with custom elements / web components as well, aaronpk
#
Zegnat https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ - “AMP components may have JavaScript under the hood”
snarfed joined the channel
#
Zegnat If I understand it right, they forbid the use of JS outright? Fits perfectly with tantek's js;dr then. No JS apart from components they themselves have created, that is.
#
aaronpk oh it's the google thing
#
aaronpk yeah
#
aaronpk if you look at the demo, they launch an in-browser full screen popup that shows the contents of the story right on the google search results
#
Zegnat There is some weird stuff in there too. They limit what CSS you are allowed to use (for speed? don’t know) but allow any @font-face inclusion. Which is a much bigger bottleneck than any CSS
#
aaronpk that's good
#
aaronpk basically they want the structured content from the publisher so that they can reformat it to show in their own page
lewisnyman joined the channel
#
aaronpk interesting, here's a NYT article with AMP HTML
#
aaronpk http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/us/politics/hillary-clintons-proposed-changes-to-health-law-zero-in-on-affordability.amp.html
#
aaronpk amazing, it loads almost instantly ;)
#
Zegnat Well, I don’t really care who starts the initiative and for what reasons. Less crap around articles will be a plus in my book
#
aaronpk we'll see if it translates to their main site too, cause they may only be updating the HTML on their mobile site
#
Zegnat I think there is a big incentive for publishers to *not* have it as their main site yet. The fact AMP limits advertisement and tracking possibilities comes to mind.
#
Zegnat s/tracking/analytics/
#
Loqi Zegnat meant to say: I think there is a big incentive for publishers to *not* have it as their main site yet. The fact AMP limits advertisement and analytics possibilities comes to mind.
#
shanehudson.net edited /2015/Brighton (-1) "/* Remote Attending */" (view diff)
#
ShaneHudson_ It appears that the wiki is broken for https images?
#
aaronpk what do you mean?
#
ShaneHudson_ My image wasn't appearing, changed to HTTP instead of HTTPS and it worked. It should be HTTPS
#
aaronpk still don't know what you mean
#
aaronpk link?
#
ShaneHudson_ https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Brighton#Remote_Attending
#
ShaneHudson_ If you edit that and preview my image as https://shanehudson.net/avatar.png instead of http://shanehudson.net/avatar.png
#
ShaneHudson_ It breaks and shows nothing/the broken image box
#
ShaneHudson_ Thought my site had gone down lol
#
aaronpk looks fine to me
#
ShaneHudson_ Oh that's odd... maybe a bug in browser then
#
Zegnat ShaneHudson_, my console shows a 403 Forbidden for your avatar on https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=2015/Brighton&oldid=20711
#
aaronpk the wiki doesn't do anything with hotlinked images, it just writes it to the <img> tag
#
aaronpk (i'm going to have to proxy those eventually so that the wiki is https-only but that's a project for another day)
#
ShaneHudson_ Zegnat: So is it something I'm doing nginx side? I see quite a few broken images on that page
#
ShaneHudson_ My HTTP should redirect to HTTPS anyway, so not sure the difference
#
aaronpk well one of the broken images is because someone has an invalid ssl cert
#
aaronpk a lot of them just don't have images
#
ShaneHudson_ Ah fair enough heh
#
aaronpk another one looks like they lost their hosting account
#
ShaneHudson_ :(
#
aaronpk another one is 502 bad gateway
#
aaronpk yup all legit errors or no images in the first place
#
aaronpk i should totally use my avatar archive that webmention.io is using to save the external images that are linked from the wiki
#
ShaneHudson_ Heh
todrobbins joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson_ I've always liked the idea of somehow proxying dead links to archive.org or alternative archived sites. But think it could very quickly become a massive project
#
Zegnat I wonder why your image is being blocked, ShaneHudson_, I can’t really see any differences between the HTTP and HTTPS one
#
ShaneHudson_ I presume it is my fault somewhere down the line
#
Zegnat Although Safari’s developer tools have problems with it too
#
todrobbins aaronpk: I just saw the comment by tantek about etherpad.mozilla.org. what happened there?
#
aaronpk more context from last night: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-06#t1444188386062
#
aaronpk they're archiving their old etherpad installation
lewisnyman joined the channel
#
todrobbins wow
#
ShaneHudson_ Well it is called ether pad, at least they made no false pretenses. Unlike Google Keep
#
aaronpk hahaha
#
Loqi hehe
#
Zegnat ShaneHudson_, HTTP vs HTTPS: http://imgur.com/a/4Oq4o
#
ShaneHudson_ ... that doesn't make sense. The image loaded, must have content :/
#
todrobbins ShaneHudson_++
#
Loqi ShaneHudson has 16 karma
tvn_ joined the channel
#
Zegnat I know, and the headers on the right seem to be exactly the same for both, so I am clueless as to a difference
#
ShaneHudson_ Yeah. I am going to ignore it for now. Sounds like it could be a cloudflare thing
#
ShaneHudson_ Used to host DNS myself but I couldn't keep up with blocking the attacks
#
aaronpk oh this is cloudflare?
#
aaronpk all bets are off then
#
ShaneHudson_ So they can deal with it until they shut down
#
ShaneHudson_ heh
#
ShaneHudson_ Very true. I had forgotten until I read those headers
LanceyWork joined the channel
#
todrobbins aaronpk: does the chat from the public pads get collected by indiewebcamp as well?
#
aaronpk i don't think anyone has copied that over
#
aaronpk there also hasn't been much on those chats since we have IRC
#
todrobbins cool, just curious if that was a concern
#
todrobbins I am backing up docs on archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20151007152622/https://old.etherpad-mozilla.org/indiewebcamp
#
todrobbins just for LOCKSS
#
aaronpk nice
wolftune, ttepasse and j12t joined the channel
#
KevinMarks so, AMP requires schema and bans SVG o_O
lewisnyman joined the channel
#
KevinMarks apparently they allow some svg now but didn't update the spec o_O
gRegorLove joined the channel
#
Zegnat I thought aaronpk had a tweet saying they don’t *require* schema?
#
Zegnat They ban a lot of stuff though, and some things feel a bit random to me (CSS selectors? Seriously?) while other things that are performance hit on mobile are completely fine (@font-face)
snarfed joined the channel
#
KevinMarks "AMP HTML documents MUST be marked up with schema.org/CreativeWork or any of its more specific types such as schema.org/NewsArticle or schema.org/BlogPosting. More types may be added in the future."
#
KevinMarks Both JSON-LD and microdata serializations of schema.org are supported.
#
aaronpk Zegnat: no I said they *do* require schema
#
aaronpk https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/651773224141766657
#
@aaronpk @cramforce oh? Interesting! I saw that http://schema.org is required and assumed that Google is getting the content from there. (twitter.com/_/status/651773224141766657)
#
aaronpk the google guy said schema wasn't required
#
Zegnat Ah, alrighty, got your tweet mixed up with him reply then!
#
Zegnat s/him/his/
#
Loqi Zegnat meant to say: Ah, alrighty, got your tweet mixed up with his reply then!
#
KevinMarks just the tip of schema
snarfed joined the channel
#
KevinMarks OK, they added svg back in
shiflett joined the channel
#
KevinMarks so I'm on TWiG to argue with Jarvis about this, so lets work through it
#
aaronpk oh nice
#
Zegnat KevinMarks++
#
Loqi KevinMarks has 170 karma
#
KevinMarks jarvis: "Imagine starting a new media service without a web site"
#
KevinMarks http://buzzmachine.com/2015/10/07/faster-distributed-web/
#
aaronpk interesting
#
KevinMarks hm. I'd like to hear tantek's views on the layout stuff
#
bear that buzzmachine link is taking a lot of time to load...
#
KevinMarks I read it in woodwind
#
KevinMarks :D
tantek joined the channel
#
bear :)
#
tantek.com edited /data_islands (+594) "history, see also" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks OK, what should I convert to AMP to ab/test?
#
tantek what is AMP?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AMP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104A
elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
aaronpk augh the new namecheap control panel is a huge step backwards
#
aaronpk i used to be able to see my whole list of domains on one screen, now I can only see 5 and I have to scroll
#
tantek what is namecheap?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "namecheap" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104B
#
aaronpk NameCheap is a domain registration company http://namecheap.com
#
Loqi
#
aaronpk case sensitive?
#
aaronpk namecheap is a domain registration company http://namecheap.com
#
aaronpk go Loqi go
#
tantek Loqi, y u ignore aaronpk?
#
KevinMarks AMP is Accelerated Mobile Pages, a google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml
#
Loqi
#
KevinMarks did I miss the window?
#
aaronpk uhoh i wonder if my SSL change just now broke something
#
aaronpk yup. Loqi is running on a server that's too old and can no longer talk to the wiki
#
Loqi yeah!
#
aaronpk oh you already knew that
#
tantek KevinMarks: feel free to add to https://indiewebcamp.com/data_islands
#
tantek.com created /XML_data_islands (+26) "r" (view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
loqi.me created /NameCheap (+133) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
#
tantek huh
#
aaronpk in today's lesson in domain registration management, Aaron learns that when you transfer a domain between registrars, the contact info stays the same. If your previous registrar used "whois privacy" and published their own proxy email, the proxy email transfers over too.
#
aaronpk this means when your new registrar tries to contact you via the email address onthe domain, the emails don't go through, because the previous registrar stops forwarding the emails since the domain isn't with them anymore
#
tantek wow that sounds worth documenting on ...
#
tantek what is a domain registrar?
#
Loqi A domain name registrar is an organization that will register domain names for you typically for an annual fee https://indiewebcamp.com/domain_registrar
#
tantek yeah that
nitot joined the channel
#
loqi.me created /DNSimple (+98) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
#
loqi.me created /root_server (+87) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
#
tantek bear++
#
Loqi bear has 74 karma
#
tantek I fully expect that eventually bear will end up educating all of us (and Loqi) on sysadmin / devops 101
#
tantek and maybe, just maybe we can help simplify all of that for the next generation
#
loqi.me created /bind_server (+136) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
#
loqi.me created /BIND (+116) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
[kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] This may be a better AMP starting link https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/
#
bear one of my longer term goals at &yet is to make open source ops more of a real thing
#
bear breaking down what I do daily into a series of recipes that people can learn from and use
#
bear an opinionated collection of best practices
cleverdevil joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson_ I always forget you are at &yet. One of my favourite companies on earth heh
lewisnyman joined the channel
#
KevinMarks what is AMP?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AMP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104M
#
KevinMarks AMP is Accelerated Mobile Pages, a google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml
#
loqi.me created /AMP (+194) "prompted by KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444237606570 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
snarfed AMP, wow. what the i don't even
#
KevinMarks send them a pr to add mf2 to this dir? https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/tree/37fc9dc68f59582b9a00ea6485386765268f9cab/examples/article-metadata
#
aaronpk i can do that :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme +1
#
aaronpk heh they already use rel=canonical
#
KevinMarks right, they are google
#
aaronpk whoa the json-ld example has a ton of invisible metadata
#
aaronpk the publisher info is only in the JSON-LD island
#
KevinMarks right - the page doesn't show the content
#
aaronpk the microdata example they moved it into the body of the page
#
KevinMarks which is at least not DRY, just evrbose
#
KevinMarks should I translate this post into AMP ? http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
#
aaronpk ha sure
#
aaronpk hm does h-entry have any concept of "publisher" (different from author)
#
ben_thatmustbeme wait, did they put an emoji lightening bolt in to the HTML tag as a requirement??
#
tantek aaronpk - it does not, however h-cite does
#
aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: not required, you can use AMP instead
#
ben_thatmustbeme oh good
#
aaronpk tantek: that doens't work in this case. this is an article which is specifying the publisher of the same article
#
aaronpk but it's the canonical URL of the article, not a citation of it
#
[kevinmarks] http://marketingland.com/google-open-mobile-web-145588
#
tantek aaronpk - I'm saying there have been use-cases to justify a "publisher" in h-cite, but not yet in h-entry
#
aaronpk okay
#
tantek ah sorry, p-publication specifically: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Properties
#
aaronpk hm that's also different
#
tantek that's what we found data for
#
aaronpk wtf why doesn't this parse
#
aaronpk <body class="h-entry"> is allowed right?
#
tantek yes!
#
tantek which parser?
#
aaronpk oh boy, it's the weird style tag that's breaking it
#
aaronpk php parser
#
aaronpk when this is in the <head> it doesn't find the h-entry tag
#
aaronpk <style>body {opacity: 0}</style><noscript><style>body {opacity: 1}</style></noscript>
#
tantek oops
#
aaronpk i don't even understand why that would be a thing
#
tantek so that the page can use script to fade the body opacity from 0 to 1
#
aaronpk no i mean why that would break it
#
[kevinmarks] Seems like it makes the page invisible?
#
aaronpk python parser doesn't see the content either
#
aaronpk node one is fine
#
tantek the node parser is amazing
#
tantek having thoroughly code reviewed it and its test suite / harness
#
[kevinmarks] The closest thing to publisher may be source-org from hnews http://microformats.org/wiki/hnews#Additional_Fields
#
tantek google has rel=publisher too right?
#
aaronpk i'm just gonna run the node parser on an AWS Lambda URL and use that for everyhting :P
#
tantek what is AWS Lambda?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AWS Lambda" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104N
#
aaronpk what is Lambda?
#
Loqi Lambda is a service from Amazon Web Services that runs individual functions of code rather than running a server https://indiewebcamp.com/Lambda
#
aaronpk AWS Lambda is [[Lambda]]
#
loqi.me created /AWS_Lambda (+19) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444239454418 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
[kevinmarks] How does that break the python parser?
#
aaronpk same way it breaks the php parser :P
#
[kevinmarks] We have 3 parser options, it may break the shitty built-in one, but lxml and html5lib should work
#
tantek can you file bugs upstream?
#
aaronpk the fact that both php and python break would indicate it's an mf2 problem rather than an html problem
#
tantek nah - more likely they copied the same parser bug
#
aaronpk the top-level object on the page is the nested author h-card
#
aaronpk it's not like it returns an empty result
#
tantek if it's not seeing the body class=h-entry, then it's the parser's fault
#
tantek obv that should be in the DOM
#
aaronpk ading h-entry to the html tag makes it work
#
kylewm html5lib and lxml handle <noscript> very differently
#
aaronpk well I don't know how the parsers work anyway. where should I file bugs?
#
aaronpk we need to get all the parsers using the same test suite so we can start adding these examples to all of them easily
#
[kevinmarks] We did start on that
#
aaronpk <link class="u-url" href="..."> should work too right?
#
[kevinmarks] I spent a chunk of time on getting the python parser working with the general test suite
#
aaronpk i'm willing to do that with the php one
#
[kevinmarks] The node one already does
#
kylewm it's a big job
hs0ucy joined the channel
#
kylewm oh bummer, looks like testrunner-47055.onmodulus.net is gone/down
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
aaronpk wow the googlebot github account makes you sign a CLA when you submit a PR
#
aaronpk super automated process, but the bot is commenting on github like an actual account!
#
aaronpk very clever
#
[kevinmarks] I wonder if that is willnorris
#
tantek willnorris turned himself into a bot?
#
kylewm rustlang has a bot that automatically randomly assigns a reviewer for PRs
#
kylewm I thought that was cool
nitot joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] Will did a lot of the github integration for Google
#
aaronpk okay here's my mf2 version https://github.com/aaronpk/amphtml/blob/master/examples/article-metadata/microformats.amp.html
#
aaronpk broken php parsed: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/aaronpk/amphtml/master/examples/article-metadata/microformats.amp.html
#
aaronpk correct node version: http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fraw.githubusercontent.com%2Faaronpk%2Famphtml%2Fmaster%2Fexamples%2Farticle-metadata%2Fmicroformats.amp.html&callback=&dateformat=auto
#
[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/Souders/status/651817063464370176
#
@Souders Like seeing @google's focus on mobile #WebPerf w/ AMP announcement. Custom elements prevents lookahead parser tho. https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ (twitter.com/_/status/651817063464370176)
#
tantek indeed. one does not need custom elements for mobile performance. that smells of an excuse to use "new shiny".
#
[kevinmarks] They replace img and video with custom elements
#
[kevinmarks] With required pixel width and height
#
[kevinmarks] And their own layout model
#
aaronpk anyone want to review that example before I send the PR?
#
[kevinmarks] The p-name is implied in the author h-card
#
aaronpk hm, I kind of like having it be explicit tho
#
KevinMarks their logo 404s
#
aaronpk it was in their examples
#
KevinMarks I know, not blaming you
#
aaronpk i thought that was weird too
#
KevinMarks hm, I bet we don't see src urls on amp-img
KartikPrabhu and aaronpk joined the channel
#
kylewm +1 kevin on removing <span class="p-name">
#
bear ugh - AMP is allowing vendors to define custom tags like <amp-twitter> -- https://blog.twitter.com/2015/introducing-accelerated-mobile-pages-0
#
tantek why is that useful?
aaronpk joined the channel
#
KevinMarks it lets you embed tweets. it overrides benward's nice blockquote fallback
#
KevinMarks stoopid
#
Loqi [mention] Jennifer Taylor was invited to https://webmention.io/notification/qCboh19BuQW9q1wYE6uQBg
#
Loqi [mention] Lisa Brewster posted an invite: "invited" https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/688447421193285/1018383818191914/10153082631379783 that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/rWBkj6cRcLzQsu-V-jWuMQ
#
Loqi [mention] Emilie Mueller was invited to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/-tIUolC5GH4ReZzcdvDw-g
#
tantek silos encouraging more proprietary markup
#
Loqi [mention] Caro Seidel and Amy Muller were invited to https://webmention.io/notification/tKYxVk7FS9cb02zrzMzJzw
#
tantek does the ampproject site itself use amp? it's too slow to load for me to bother finding out.
#
aaronpk updated the example to remove the span tag
#
tantek simplermarkup++
#
Loqi simplermarkup has 1 karma
#
[kevinmarks] Some of it does
#
snarfed googlebot++ aaronpk, agreed, the new automated CLA process is light years better than the old process(es)
#
Loqi googlebot has 1 karma
#
aaronpk okay I *think* I updated my SSL cert everywhere it's used. Guess I'll find out on Friday if things start breaking
#
bear at least you updated it before the ocsp window hit
#
bear that time when ocsp caches have your old cert but you've just updated to a new one
#
aaronpk uhoh what's the ocsp window?
#
aaronpk oh man
#
aaronpk didn't even think about that
#
aaronpk SSL is hard
#
bear startssl is very fast with updates - so you won't get a lot of breakage today
#
tantek what is OCSP window?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OCSP window" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104P
#
aaronpk oops no still a few more places :P
#
tantek I hope you're keeping a list of these places, to then add to /HTTPS#Maintenance !
#
aaronpk i am, but it's all very specific to my servers, not really useful generally
#
aaronpk the scary thing is this cert expires in 2 years which means I am very likely going to not remember this
hs0ucy joined the channel
#
tantek exactly
#
bear OCSP window is that small amount of time between when your SSL certificate vendor registers your new cert and when the browser update their certificate cache
#
loqi.me created /OCSP_window (+184) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444242658921 and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek HTTPS - how to make your website more fragile without anyone attacking it!
#
aaronpk CloudFlare is looking like a really good option
#
tantek HTTPS is like the inkjet business model for CAs.
#
bear pfft - I could say the same thing about most developers ;)
#
aaronpk it's a magic SSL layer in front of your site
#
aaronpk i'm using this cert not only on web stuff tho. mail server, IRC server, IRC bouncer
#
tantek aaronpk, supposedly LetsEncrypt is going to solve the cert update problem
#
tantek I'll believe it when it ships and does its first automated update
#
aaronpk cloudflare is still more magic
XgF joined the channel
#
tantek what is cloudflare?
#
Loqi CloudFlare is a service to, in their own words, "supercharge your website" https://indiewebcamp.com/CloudFlare
#
tantek we have contact(s) there too
#
tantek they want to host an HWC or IWC one day if possible
#
aaronpk oh nice
#
aaronpk where are they based?
#
tantek SF
#
tantek one of their folks (Lauren B) has been to a bunch of our HWC SF meetups
#
tantek (Lauren B )
#
aaronpk nice
#
aaronpk man i wonder what it'd take so that I can stop running this mail server
#
tantek aside, just told CSSWG folks who lost their Moz Etherpad tool they could use ours if they don't mind that everything they type into it goes CC0 / Public Domain
#
bear cloudflare works because they have automated the hard part of doing HTTPS over a CDN while reducing the amount of cdn grief you normally get
#
tantek this was in # css on the W3C IRC server
#
tantek aaronpk, consider lurking in # css on W3C IRC
#
tantek (e.g. when you're connected to # social on there)
#
aaronpk i thought mozilla launched the new etherpad
#
aaronpk https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/
#
cleverdevil let me know if DreamHost can help in any way, btw.
#
cleverdevil happy to do what we can.
#
aaronpk cleverdevil: with SSL stuff?
#
cleverdevil well, honestly, with anything infrastructure related for IndieWeb efforts.
#
cleverdevil I can't guarantee help in every case, but I can always be an advocate :)
#
aaronpk cool thanks
#
aaronpk okay *now* i have the cert everywhere
#
GWG !tell tantek I have a use case for publisher in an h-entry or h-feed, see site name.
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
_6a68_ joined the channel
#
aaronpk we'll see how this goes https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/pull/499
nitot joined the channel
#
voxpelli anyone done a mapping between https://developers.facebook.com/docs/instant-articles/reference and how to parse eg. an h-entry?
#
voxpelli apart from a few "op-" properties like "op-published" and "op-ad" it's mostly just basic html tags and thus fairly similar to how one could interpret an h-entry
KartikPrabhu and eschnou joined the channel
#
aaronpk I just re-read the PuSH spec and it says the notifications need to have HTTP headers for rel=hub and rel=self. pretty sure Switchboard is not sending those.
#
aaronpk kylewm: have you noticed any issues receiving pings from Switchboard?
#
kylewm not that i'm aware of
#
aaronpk you must be using a unique subscription URL per feed then
#
aaronpk and you aren't using any contents of the POST from the hubs other than the URL that was POSTed to, right?
#
voxpelli including the rel-hub must be to enable the move to a new hub and the rel-self to know what content that is actually being pushed?
#
kylewm aaronpk: yeah unique subscription url -- I use the X-Hub-Signature if provided but no other headers
#
aaronpk huh okay
#
aaronpk yeah if you're using a unique subscription URL that's enough to identify what is being updated. if you're using the same one you'd need to use the rel=self value from the header
#
aaronpk funny cause the spec also says it's "good practice" to use a unique subscription URL
#
voxpelli talked to someone about paginated pages and PuSH and the pushed URL doesn't necessairly have to match the subscribed one
#
voxpelli you can subscribe to the first page, but receive an update for the third page for example
#
aaronpk is rel=self useful in that case for some reason?
#
voxpelli hmm, that doesn't matter here when I think again because the rel-self would still be the same I guess
#
aaronpk and still if you're using a unique subscription URL it doesn't matter
#
voxpelli yeah, it's probably just to make simple implementations easier
#
voxpelli the rel-hub is the more interesting one – enabling the move from one hub to another
#
kylewm voxpelli: what would a push for the third page look like?
#
aaronpk voxpelli: is the implication that if the subscriber gets a rel=hub that's a different value than was used, they should create a subscription on the new hub?
#
aaronpk i don't quite follow that
#
voxpelli aaronpk: that's how I would interpret such a push
#
voxpelli kylewm: just the content of the third page with the same rel-self I think, was a while since I discussed it
#
aaronpk huh, that's not mentioned in the spec at all, which just says "with rel=hub pointing to the Hub" which kind of implies it would be the same hub that was subscribed to
#
kylewm maybe just a sanity check?
#
voxpelli maybe it's not meant to communicate a hub switch, but it would make sense to use it for one and it would be useful to have a way to communicate something like that :)
#
voxpelli kylewm: regarding the pagination: https://twitter.com/superfeedr/status/645664173259649024
#
@superfeedr @voxpelli well yes exactly. That's the point of using a "self". Details by email maybe? (twitter.com/_/status/645664173259649024)
#
aaronpk it would probably be useful to be able to indicate a hub switch. otoh as soon as the subscription expires the subscriber is going to find the new hub anyway
#
voxpelli that reasoning also shines some light on why rel-self isn't the same as rel-canonical
#
kylewm voxpelli: i think i would interpret that exchange differently
#
kylewm you said "i expected push subscriptions to be for the exact url" and he said "yes exactly"
#
voxpelli right, I realize there's some ambiguity in that exchange now, I guess I have to sort that out with Julien
#
voxpelli one challenge with PuSH when it comes to Crud is what happens with items that has fallen of the first page of a feed
#
kylewm yes
#
kylewm very similar to the problem i'm having thinking through how to fetch likes and comments and show them in woodwind
#
aaronpk yepyep
shiflett and wolftune joined the channel
#
snarfed ambitious
#
snarfed it'll be an awesome feature, but i definitely don't envy you implementing it kylewm
#
snarfed amusingly i actually had to to the opposite and *strip* like/comment/share counts in https://facebook-atom.appspot.com/ because they made stories reappear over and over when they changed
#
voxpelli kylewm: in the spirit of Salmention a received like or comment should trigger a PuSH
#
voxpelli so yeah, very similar, if PuSH has support for pages (which it might already perhaps have with a liberal interpretation of the spec) then that would be enough
#
voxpelli snarfed: only in classic feed readers I guess? which weren't checking for unique id:s or URL:s to find duplicates?
#
aaronpk the spec is meant to be interpreted liberally so go for it?
#
kylewm snarfed: ha KevinMarks mentioned that. i probably won't do an ambitious implementation, at least at first. tantek suggested just fetching like and comment count on demand (maybe on a click). that would be a good proof of concept
renoirb, martinBrown, tantek, nitot and Lancey joined the channel
#
loqi.me created /Instant_Articles (+233) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
#
tantek earlier I asked what is Instant Articles?
#
KevinMarks FB's is mostly POSH
#
Loqi tantek: GWG left you a message 1 hour, 8 minutes ago: I have a use case for publisher in an h-entry or h-feed, see site name. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444243764056
#
Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Instant_Articles
#
tantek GWG, that's publication - not publisher. which we have in h-cite - and likely would work for site name too
#
voxpelli Instant articles is almost a microformats approach – only weird thing is their geo-data
#
tantek GWG, want to start gathering examples? http://microformats.org/wiki/publication-examples
#
tantek subsequently I asked do we have history of proprietary silo markup failures?
#
KevinMarks Apple's is not defined publicly yet.
#
tantek does it have a name?
#
tantek like Apple News or iOS News or ?
#
tantek is it iOS only?
#
aaronpk oh right
#
aaronpk omg this is the year of silo markup
#
snarfed voxpelli: even in modern readers with id handling. meh!
#
snarfed voxpelli: https://github.com/snarfed/facebook-atom/issues/11
#
tantek voxpelli: anything geo related in RSS has a murky past, including the poorly named and defined GeoRSS
#
aaronpk i hope this doesn't kill the web
#
tantek (back when it was fashionable to suffix your "thing" with *RSS to make it sound cool, like MediaRSS or whatever it was called that Yahoo did)
#
voxpelli tantek: Instant Articles aren't RSS-based, RSS is simply a distribution mechanism for the HTML
#
tantek what weird trick did they do with geo then?
#
voxpelli tantek: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/instant-articles/reference/map
#
voxpelli embedded JSON
#
tantek more data islands?
#
tantek wow
#
aaronpk geo data does not really map to HTML very well
#
aaronpk no pun intended
#
aaronpk okay pun kind of intended
#
tantek 😂😂😂
#
tantek hey is that geojson?
#
voxpelli good thing is that that's the only weird thing – the rest is class-based and HTML5-tags I thing
#
voxpelli tantek: yes
#
tantek.com edited /data_islands (+328) "Facebook instant articles geo data" (view diff)
#
tantek what is GeoJSON?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "GeoJSON" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104R
#
voxpelli they link to the GeoJSON-site rather than documenting it themselves
#
tantek "element with the op-map class attached" ... "with the op-geotag class attached."
#
tantek huh, class names for semantics ;)
#
tantek voxpelli: is that what you meant by microformats approach?
#
ShaneHudson_ GeoJSON is a standard format for geographic data, ranging from single points to collections of complicated polygons.
#
loqi.me created /GeoJSON (+143) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444248540604 and dfn added by ShaneHudson_" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
aaronpk oh! there's an extra </script> tag
#
voxpelli tantek: the "op-published" and "op-modified" classes are very similar to their "dt-" counterparts
#
tantek fascinating
#
voxpelli and they use "op-" for some "h-" style classes as well
#
aaronpk oh darn that didn't fix the parser
#
tantek voxpelli: that means you have to know what the fixed op-* vocabulary is in order to parse it
#
tantek more classic microformats style
#
voxpelli yeah, but thinking it would be fairly easy to translate the "op-" classes to mf2-classes as they both share some commonalities
#
aaronpk ah too bad they didn't learn from mf1
#
voxpelli it's interesting to note that there's two prefixes just like in "open graph" – "op-" and "fb-"
#
voxpelli so they do distinguish between reusable prefixes and such that are purely meant for Facebook
#
voxpelli s/reusable prefixes/reusable classes/
#
Loqi voxpelli meant to say: so they do distinguish between reusable classes and such that are purely meant for Facebook
#
aaronpk hah well progress on my mf2 example
#
KevinMarks yuck contain a <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1,minimum-scale=1,maximum-scale=1,user-scalable=no,minimal-ui">
#
aaronpk now the real test https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/pull/499#issuecomment-146317307
#
aaronpk at least now it'll be on record if they reject it
tantek joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson_ aaronpk++
#
Loqi aaronpk has 969 karma
#
@muhhbot Die ganzen IndieWeb Plugins für diese Jahresvorschauliste da mit aufnehmen (twitter.com/_/status/651859150717255681)
#
tantek oh hey at least AMP appears to be listening to the js;dr lessons! (finally reading IRC scrollback)
#
KevinMarks post for review http://www.kevinmarks.com/ampreaction.html
#
aaronpk i thought font-face was banned too
#
ShaneHudson_ I don't know much about amp but currently working with a CMS based on Wordpress that bans loads of things... driving me insane. Everything I do is ending up as a total hack.
#
ShaneHudson_ (as if Wordpress wasn't bad enough! hah)
#
aaronpk ah there is a whitelist of supported fonts for @font-face
#
tantek ShaneHudson_: loads of things are YAGNI
#
aaronpk https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/spec/amp-html-format.md#custom-fonts
#
aaronpk "Font providers can be whitelisted if they support CSS-only integrations and serve over HTTPS. The following origins are currently allowed for font serving via link tags: https://fonts.googleapis.com"
#
KevinMarks on twig now
#
aaronpk wait but then "Authors are free to include all custom fonts via a @font-face CSS instruction via their custom CSS. Fonts included via @font-face must be fetched via HTTP or HTTPS scheme."
#
aaronpk :/
#
tantek LOL https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ uses <blockquote> for headings :(
#
Loqi it'll be ok
#
aaronpk i don't actually read those as headings, more like strangely large callouts
#
tantek except they're not callouts because they're not elsewhere in the doc
#
aaronpk good point
#
tantek AND when they do, they function more as headings than not, e.g. AMP HTML loves CSS!
#
KevinMarks on TWiG now, jeff is doign the big sell
#
tantek big sell of what?
#
bear of AMP
#
bear he (jeff) was at the event announcing this
#
tantek KevinMarks, keep saying js;dr as often as you can ;)
#
KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/ampreaction.html
nitot joined the channel
#
tantek https://twitter.com/amphtml hasn't tweeted yet
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson_ Who's behind it all anyway? Worth paying attention to at all?
#
bear KevinMarks - so will DRM'd video streams work with this google blessed js video tag?
#
tantek lol: https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/651852331596668928
#
@ericlaw "In fact, this page is, itself, an AMP HTML document." View Source: "PS: Technically this file is an invalid AMP HTML file." (twitter.com/_/status/651852331596668928)
#
aaronpk all of the examples are invalid
#
aaronpk see: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/503
#
aaronpk and https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/458
#
tantek looks like they have some work to do
#
KartikPrabhu what is amp?
#
Loqi AMP is Accelerated Mobile Pages, a google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://indiewebcamp.com/AMP
#
davidpea.ch edited /Laravel (+144) (view diff)
#
davidpea.ch edited /Laravel (+21) (view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu is so confused by what amp is trying to do
#
davidpea.ch edited /scrobble (+90) "/* davidpea.ch */" (view diff)
#
aaronpk KartikPrabhu: it makes sense when you do the demo on a phone
#
aaronpk visit this on a phone, the search for something like "obama" http://g.co/ampdemo
#
aaronpk or on desktop change your user agent to something that looks mobile
#
KartikPrabhu so if it speeds up things on mobile why not speed up things on desktop too?
#
KevinMarks does the validator work?
#
KevinMarks give me more reactions
#
kylewm it didn't work on my phone...
#
cleverdevil looks like its basically trying to be a more open version of FB instant articles and Apple News and the like.
#
KevinMarks yes
#
cleverdevil at least, the technology behind it.
#
KevinMarks well, it will make desktop faster, sure
#
aaronpk well they support separate AMP files from the main site
#
aaronpk so nytimes and such are publishing two pages for every article
#
kylewm do you need to be using chrome on a mobile device?
#
aaronpk no
#
aaronpk it actually worked pretty crappy in chrome on ios
#
KartikPrabhu nothing special happened on FF
#
aaronpk scrolling within the article was sloooowwwww
#
aaronpk KartikPrabhu: you should see special results at the top for the AMP-enabled search results
#
KartikPrabhu goes back to actual stuff
#
ben_thatmustbeme wait, would that work with node js?
#
ben_thatmustbeme or would it kill all the client side js?
#
bear only if your using nodejs to generate server side static pages
#
bear if your using dynamic pages at all it won't load your js
#
KartikPrabhu lol!
#
aaronpk right. at least they're encouraging people to publish html
#
KartikPrabhu seems like "lets make bloated webpages and add Google's bloat to unbloat them"
#
aaronpk nah look at the examples, they want people to publish actual HTML https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/examples/article-metadata/json-ld.amp.html
#
aaronpk with the exception of the crazy amp-img stuff
#
KartikPrabhu so why not just publish HTML
#
KartikPrabhu that's what I am confused by
#
aaronpk it's so they can have more control over the loading of the images and videos when displaying a page
#
tantek there you go: https://twitter.com/t/status/651868490920390656
#
@t Remember when I declared js;dr? #AMP: “not include author-written JavaScript, nor 3rd-party scripts” ... http://tantek.com/2015/280/t1/js-dr-amp-not-include-javascript (twitter.com/_/status/651868490920390656)
#
KartikPrabhu yup sounds like Google's FB Instant Articles
#
KartikPrabhu no thanks. I am not writing random JSON crap in my HTML thanks
#
tantek hey Apple's thing has a name
#
tantek what is Apple News Publisher?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Apple News Publisher" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104S
#
tantek Apple News Publisher is https://developer.apple.com/news-publisher/ an iOS9 app for news and magazine stories that uses the Apple News Format.
#
loqi.me created /Apple_News_Publisher (+169) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444252637258 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek What is Apple News Format
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Apple News Format" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104T
#
tantek Apple News Format is an yet unspecified [[Apple]]-proprietary format for publishing news for iOS devices.
#
loqi.me created /Apple_News_Format (+132) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444252687586 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek.com edited /Apple_News_Format (+72) "coming soon citation" (view diff)
#
tantek aaronpk: who is @cramforce?
#
tantek ah: Tech lead of the AMP Project.
#
aaronpk tech lead of AMP https://twitter.com/cramforce/status/651762967147483136
#
@cramforce A new approach to web performance. Today we are starting the AMP Project to make mobile web content fast again. https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ (twitter.com/_/status/651762967147483136)
#
tantek so good: https://twitter.com/BoredElonMusk/status/651797834031853568
#
@BoredElonMusk Me: How do we make this rocket move faster? You: How do we make this mobile ad load faster? (twitter.com/_/status/651797834031853568)
#
aaronpk heh
tantek joined the channel
#
bear makes me wonder if google has thought about doing micropayments if AMP is used
#
tantek bear, that's not their business model
gRegorLove joined the channel
#
KevinMarks well, it is except the micropayments are ads
#
bear that's the point I was badly making - if AMP is used then it allows finer grained tracking of click/views with google blessed tech
#
bear hmm, google via AMP as a article broker
#
KevinMarks that is the demo
#
KevinMarks ok, what else is new?
#
KartikPrabhu is there a webmention protocol for handling address spoofing
#
aaronpk address spoofing?
#
KartikPrabhu yeah someone sends me a webmention pretending to be someone else. eg: second last webmention here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
#
KartikPrabhu Have been thinking about it since I got a bunch of addressed spoofed emails from the Nobel Prize committe ;)
#
aaronpk bridgy basically does this
#
KartikPrabhu yes so I will ave to verify against some silo profile?
#
aaronpk you can check that the domain of the source URL matches the domain of the author
#
snarfed right
#
aaronpk that would block bridgy but would also block spoofing
#
aaronpk you could then whitelist bridgy and allow only bridgy (or whatever backfeed service your'e using) to spoof
#
KartikPrabhu hmm
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: if you want something bigger, e.g. check that the author is truly the person with the name and picture in the h-card, that's kinda either unsolvable or massively hard
#
KartikPrabhu yeah
#
snarfed you basically need to check id out of band, which...no
#
aaronpk haha yeah. i just went through this with startssl extended validation
#
KartikPrabhu not a problem with webmentions yet, but was thinking in comparison to email
#
aaronpk email is just as spoofable
#
snarfed although, hmm. using the "silos as plumbing" model, you could check that their profile is "verified" (or whatever it's called)
#
KartikPrabhu yes it is. I was wondering if webmention can be better than email there
#
snarfed gross idea - forget i suggested it - but still
#
aaronpk attempts to solve email are actually worse than the source URL + author URL check IMO
#
snarfed email has DKIM etc, webmention has vouch
#
aaronpk you don't need vouch to reject spoofed webmentions
#
snarfed aaronpk: you do if they serve the h-card url, image, etc all from their domain
#
KartikPrabhu yup ^
#
aaronpk oh ha
#
snarfed having said that, this is so far not a problem in practice
#
snarfed i suggest we maybe wikify it and then drop it :P
#
KartikPrabhu yes, so far not a problem
#
aaronpk i would say that is more along the lines of spam
#
snarfed similar to phishing
#
tantek pretty sure this is all already documented on the wiki - did any of you bother to check?
#
snarfed even better!
#
tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Spoofing
#
tantek feel free to improve on that!
#
snarfed at least the domain check idea
#
snarfed otherwise: tons of prior art, huge nerd snipe tarpit, and not an actual problem we have yet...all good reasons to deprioritize with a vengeance
#
aaronpk the domain check idea only works in conjunction with receiving a webmention
#
tantek also, let the race to make AMP smaller begin: https://twitter.com/t/status/651876961971646465
#
@t @chrismessina we can make #AMP smaller: * script: ban JSONLD * meta: ban "property" attr, schema-org make ... http://tantek.com/2015/280/t2/make-amp-smaller-ban-jsonld-schema-org (twitter.com/_/status/651876961971646465)
#
tantek snarfed++
#
Loqi snarfed has 145 karma
#
aaronpk snarfed++
#
Loqi snarfed has 146 karma
#
tantek OTOH I'm more than happy to fuel the nerd snipe fire for minimizing HTML that AMP appears to be sparking
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: aah cool. my bad for not checking on wiki first
#
tantek we've already been doing that in IndieWeb for quite some time (minimizing HTML) out of laziness / efficiency. but I repeat myself.
#
KartikPrabhu but also no potential solution documented but that is ok as low priority
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: it's ok, feel free to add anything new you think of (whether question, solution, ideas) to that page
nitot joined the channel
#
tantek aaronpk++ for https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/pull/499
#
Loqi aaronpk has 970 karma
#
tantek.com edited /AMP (+250) "IndieWeb support - link to pull request, see also" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks so, do we have a thing to recommend to leo et al that will actually work?
#
tantek KevinMarks by "actually work" presumably you mean "has been user tested on someone other than Leo"?
#
KevinMarks indeed
#
KevinMarks I don't want that experience again
#
tantek you could user test with someone else, whatever you were thinking of demoing to Leo
#
KevinMarks whats new and demos well since I was last on?
#
tantek KevinMarks: have you checked the last week in the indieweb page(s)?
#
KevinMarks quill email? that was cool
#
aaronpk that will work as long as you put the quill email address in the "To" field
#
aaronpk :)
#
tantek KevinMarks - keep repeating this message: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/651637772847964160
#
@kevinmarks @dangillmor @mmasnick @pmarca we have ways of working with that http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/replacing-comments-with-external-posts (twitter.com/_/status/651637772847964160)
#
tantek comments are every publishers & producers problem
#
KevinMarks I can talk about motherboard with jeff
#
tantek keep repeating the message that we have and are using a solution, and your message may eventually get through
#
KevinMarks I'll discuss the comments thing
#
aaronpk this is starting to get reaaaallly itchy http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2015/08/29/1/why-i-live-in-irc
#
aaronpk gotta launch my new site first tho
friedcell and lukebrooker joined the channel
#
aaronpk I have some fun plans for Monocle up my sleeve
#
bear what is Monocle
#
Loqi Monocle is an open source IndieWeb-enabled reader developed by Aaron Parecki https://indiewebcamp.com/Monocle
Nissyen and mlncn joined the channel
#
aaronpk oh dear
#
aaronpk we have two planning pages
#
aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Planning and http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/planning
snarfed joined the channel
#
KevinMarks thats poor planNing
#
aaronpk lol
yalamerde and nitot joined the channel
#
bear haha
#
tantek it's fine. first half of the year, and 2nd half of the year!
#
KartikPrabhu not sure a capitalisation connotes that
#
tantek no - and it's why I was planning things on /2015/ first
#
tantek which somehow got moved to /2015/planning :/
#
Nissyen PlanningFirstHalf and planning_second_half
#
tantek the /2015/Planning is literally only for the main annual
#
KartikPrabhu the irony grows
#
tantek as in planning for *the* 2015 IndieWebCamp
#
gRegorLove suggests /planningPlanning to plan the planning pages. ;)
#
KartikPrabhu what about /planningplanning then?
#
KartikPrabhu or the other 2 variants
#
aaronpk clearly we need /planningplanningplanning to plan the name for the page to plan the planning pages
#
KartikPrabhu oh no! 2^3 combinations now
#
gRegorLove We should move this discussion to the mailing list... :D
#
Loqi I agree
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu eventually we'll hit a singularity and the wiki will become sentient enough to plan its own planning
#
Nissyen Discussion of that should be on the planningPlanningSentience page
#
KartikPrabhu this is where tantek kicks us out to #indiechat
#
gRegorLove On-topic, should planning for the year be at /2015-planning, leaving /2015/planning as planning for the IWC events that year?
#
aaronpk what about just /Planning
#
aaronpk that way there's no confusion between planning a specific event vs a bunch of events
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
gRegorLove With a section for each year on /Planning? Sounds good.
#
gRegorLove Archive them to /Planning/YYYY ?
#
tantek ugh I hope not
#
tantek planning-centric seems badly bureaucratic
#
gRegorLove Just tossing out ideas
#
gRegorLove Heh, /2015/planning even has a 2016 section
#
tantek the point was that for any IWC related home page blahblahYearLocation
#
tantek that all subpages be blahblahYearLocation/subpage
#
aaronpk i'm sorry I brought this up. I just went to go look up the status of 2015/SF and couldn't find it because I was on the wrong planning page
snarfed1, snarfed, KevinMarks and KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
KevinMarks hm, the validator doesn't demand schema
#
KevinMarks so <amp-twitter></amp-twitter> doesn't treat it's contents as fallback
#
KartikPrabhu that seems to be a probelm with web components in general. Custom tags but no need to specify good default fallback behaviour
nitot joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu adactio wrote about this a while back: https://adactio.com/journal/7967