#indiewebcamp 2015-10-07

2015-10-07 UTC
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Loqi
[mention] Dharmishta Rood, Shing Wong, and Kat Lucky were invited to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-07-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/6j66-aQz44D6pfVArEhVIA
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GWG
tantek: Does that explain the issue I was talking about?
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tantek
GWG, not quite - I'm hoping you can provide specific examples?
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tantek
the challenge here is that theoretically I can imagine how any page *could* have a reasonable h-feed
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tantek
e.g. a post permalink could contain a nested h-feed of the responses to it!
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tantek
nearly any page could have a nested h-feed of the revisions to the page!
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GWG
tantek: But this is a top-level h-feed
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tantek
GWG, e.g. here's a concrete example of a "random" page with a top level h-feed (because there was nothing else I could think of to markup?) http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/favelets/
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tantek
the point is that simply the presence of an h-feed is not bad nor a problem per se
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tantek
I suppose I should ask that question
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tantek
what is the problem?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "problem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1046
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tantek
The problem is that when you ask what is the problem, you need to be more specific.
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loqi.me
created /problem (+106) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-06/line/1444181060540 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek.com
edited /problem (+4) "The"
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tantek
GWG, what specific problem are you encountering with a top level h-feed?
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GWG
tantek: My objection is that people are just putting it in without thought. It is a decision become copied over and over again.
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tantek
extraneous markup?
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tantek
sounds like something we can perhaps suggest for indiewebify.me
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GWG
tantek: This is the same decision in WordPress that has hentry automatically added to everything. The implementation was wrong when they did it, and it has just propogated.
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tantek
that is - noticing that there is an extraneous h-feed, and reporting it as an error
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tantek
GWG, but that decision is not completely wrong either - h-entry is a very good default top level microformat for a page
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GWG
I was reporting it as a bug.
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GWG
WordPress uses two class functions to automatically insert classes...body_class and post_class.
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tantek
GWG, I think the real problem here is that the semantic markup is being split across core and templates
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GWG
tantek: What's the solution for that?
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tantek
whereas it really should be all in one or the other
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GWG
Templating makes sense in some cases.
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tantek
because when it is split across core and templates, it's nearly impossible for EITHER side to fix it!
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tantek
GWG, nah, if you can't put all of the default markup in core, then it should all be put into templates
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tantek
this may be a WordPress architectural issue - the fact that core has a body_class and post_class at all is likely a mistake
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tantek
whereas the solution would be to empower a template to control the entire page markup
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tantek
and have ZERO markup in "core"
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tantek
and then different kinds of templates for different pages etc.
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tantek
one should be able to completely change the markup without touching core code
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tantek
that is, by only editing templates
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tantek
so this is a bigger WordPress architectural problem than just "too many hfeeds or too many hentrys"
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tantek
happy to have snarfed, or any other WordPress users here review my reasoning / find any flaws.
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GWG
But every time I talk to the themers, they say it is a core issue.
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GWG
The core people say it is a theme issue
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GWG
I can't win on this one.
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tantek
You can point out that it's a core architectural issues, because core should not be interfering with markup - that's the theme's job and responsibility.
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tantek
The themers are right. When the core people say it is a theme issue - ask them, how do they propose a theme "undo" the markup that is hard coded in core?
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tantek
BTW this is probably worth capturing in /template
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tantek.com
edited /template (+710) "WordPress Template Issues"
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tantek.com
edited /template (+1) "/* = WordPress Template Issues */ ="
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tantek
GWG, please feel free to capture more (e.g. citations to your conversations) here https://indiewebcamp.com/template#WordPress
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tantek
if we can't fix WordPress core, at least we can document the architectural error so that other implementations don't make the same mistake
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tantek
and maybe someday someone will be able to fix WordPress core, maybe they even have an outstanding issue on this!
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GWG
tantek: I filed one.
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GWG
tantek: I've been working on other issues. I just closed a 9 year old issue for them about pingbacks.
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tantek
whoa!
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tantek
GWG, great - please add citations to the issues you file!
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GWG
If you don't believe me
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tantek
nicely done
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GWG
I'm trying to build credibility.
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tantek
GWG, it's a very worthy approach
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KevinMarks
GWG I love that you closed a 9-year old bug that references a dead site
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GWG
KevinMarks: I was looking for low hanging fruit. I'm trying to get to: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/32653
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GWG
KevinMarks: This is the WordPress Pingback code. It really needs a massive update.
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GWG
If only I was better at parsing. I always had issues with that.
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@Covata
EU Court of Justice rules Safe Harbor invalid due to insufficient personal data protection #OwnYourData http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-eu-ireland-privacy-idUSKCN0S00NT20151006
(twitter.com/_/status/651589031130726401)
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tantek
what does that even mean?
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tantek
massive FB invitations for tomorrow's HWC SF finally sent out
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tantek
let's see how the Bridgy clustering works
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@StuajonesA
RT @Covata: EU Court of Justice rules Safe Harbor invalid due to insufficient personal data protection #OwnYourData http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-eu-ireland-privacy-idUSKCN0S00NT20151006
(twitter.com/_/status/651593182900162560)
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Loqi
[mention] Kevin Smokler, Ben Moskowitz, George Kelly, Colleen Taylor, Atul Varma, Lawrence Lessig, Cariwyl Hebert, David Baron, Jay Zalowitz, Justin David Kruger, Stephanie Vacher, Stacey Rivet, Marie Williams, Jeff Hodsdon, Jeffrey Veen, Megs ORorke, Erin Stevenson O'Connor, Olya Lapina, Daniel Appelquist, Evan Prodromou, Chris Heuer, Stephen Wyatt Bush, James Craig, Tony Rai, Michael Owens, Joël Franusic, Kara Murphy, Loic Le Meur, Amy MacKinnon, Zibi Braniecki, Jeff Rider, Thomas Vander Wal, Kitt Hodsden, Jesse Vincent, C Alaric Moore, Stephanie Haupt Sullivan Rewis, Simon Law, Zoe Schiffer, Brian Behlendorf, Martin Atkins, Christine Herron, Paul Hammond, Beau Smith, Charles Hope, Jen Bradburn, Matthew Levine, Christopher Carfi, Mo Kudeki, Peter Hirshberg, Lizz Noonan, Nima Dilmaghani, Om Malik, Cari Levay, Laura Helen Winn, Pius Uzamere, Jeremy Anderson, Matt Schaar, Carla Borsoi, Joichi Ito, Jordan McArthur, Thor Muller, Brynn Evans, Yan XZ, Jessica Suttles, Ben Metcalfe, Adam Rifkin, Nate Koechley, Mar
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Loqi
[mention] Jet Villegas, Sarah Austin, Kyle Huey, Zack Fischmann, Laura Gluhanich, and Tom Coates were invited to https://webmention.io/notification/7ETuA4OvuXERenfOqk5k0Q
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aaronpk
omg etherpad.mozilla.org is gone
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aaronpk
good thing we archive all that content to our wiki regularly
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KevinMarks
site-deaths update
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aaronpk
looks like they're making the plaintext content available at a new URL base
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wagle
noobs might be interested in https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:W3Cx+HTML5.1x+4T2015/info which is so far a fairly detailed course on html5, including microdata etc
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KevinMarks
microdata isn't part of html5
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KevinMarks
search http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ - no microdata in it
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wagle
ok, they explain it, but i'm reading fast
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wagle
i bring up microdata since one of my projects here is grokking it, where-ever it fits into the puzzle
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wagle
they dont actually say its part of html5
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wagle
but you might be forgiven for assuming that since they bring it up in week 1 of the mooc
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KevinMarks
well, it's not implemented in any browser http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/153772
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aaronpk
yup that's kind of unfortunately the problem with that course
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wagle
well, huh
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KevinMarks
right, that was part of google 'format of the month' advice
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wagle
well, i'm pretty ignorant of the whole html/css/whatever-version-of-out-of-band-data-you-are-using, so I hope learning about microdata transfers to others
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KevinMarks
well, here you'll here a lot about microformats
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KevinMarks
s/here a/hear a/
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Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: well, here you'll hear a lot about microformats
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wagle
ok.. it was micro-something-or-other... 8/
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KevinMarks
if you already know html and a bit of css, microformats re easy to understand
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wagle
not arguing, just trying to make sense of the big picture
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KevinMarks
they're a set of conventions for using classes to make the page easier to extract data from
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KevinMarks
microdata instead takes the approach of adding a lot of extra properties that often duplicate the data
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wagle
.. ah ok.. i'm agnostic
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wagle
i'm just reporting a small selection of what the mooc points me at
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wagle
.. trying to figure out why this guy seems to be claiming that microdata is "real"
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wagle
i'm figure it out, eventually
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KevinMarks
microdata was Ian's attempt to make up a syntax that was somewhere between RDF and mciroformats
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todrobbins
JSON-LD is looking like a good evolution
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KevinMarks
unlike the rest of his editorial work, he was less focused on implementations
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KevinMarks
of what, todrobbins?
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todrobbins
of encoding a set of RDF modelled data for consumption by the client/spider
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wagle
ah...
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todrobbins
it’s compact yet expressive, at least to most developers
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todrobbins
especially when compared to previous encodings of RDF. Microformats and microdata are great too
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todrobbins
I’m not trying to malign those efforts at all.
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KevinMarks
yes, it's a good dynamic language represention of RDF concepts
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KevinMarks
no it's not a good thing to put in web pages
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KevinMarks
it's a regression from RDFa there
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KevinMarks
I wrote a post that is somewhat related to this http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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todrobbins
KevinMarks, I’ll read that
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todrobbins
Thanks for sharing
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todrobbins
you don’t think JSON-LD should be included in a script tag on a page? A kind of sidecar metadata file?
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aaronpk
what is a sidefile?
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Loqi
The sidefile-antipattern is a violation of the DRY principle by the use of secondary files (typically in some one-off XML format) to provide information that is a duplicate of information available in primary files on a website (in HTML), and is an antipattern due to typical DRY violation problems such as out-of-date, missing, corrupted, or outright false data https://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile
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KevinMarks
it's nto really showing mciroformats best practices, as there's lots of that here, but it is a mapling between them
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KevinMarks
hi klickreflex, how's the instagram replacing going?
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KevinMarks
if you're going to include JSON-LD in a page, it would make sence to put it in a script tag and assign it to a variable, so it is at least accessible to code running in the page
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KevinMarks
that's still an antipattern, but it is a semi-useful one
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todrobbins
KevinMarks: gotcha
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KevinMarks
what is js;dr
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Loqi
js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indiewebcamp.com/js;dr
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todrobbins
That makes sense. Sidefile is probably the wrong way to describe my example. Loqi, good reference to js;dr
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KevinMarks
the problem wiht sidefiles, especially ones that have nothing to do with the construction of the page, is that they rot
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KevinMarks
you see that in the JSON-LD example I link to from my post
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wagle
thsnk for the info! (i'm busy with this test now)
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todrobbins
Which is why the argument is to just embed the data in the markup itself
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aaronpk
i guess sidefile doesn't quite describe JSON-LD islands, but it's still DRY
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KevinMarks
well, it's likely a sidefile before browserify touches it...
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todrobbins
aaronpk: by JSON-LD islands, you mean a script tag with a JSON-LD object at the end of an HTML doc?
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aaronpk
yeah, that's a common term for it as far as i can tell
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todrobbins
or even a separate .json file in the same dir on the server?
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todrobbins
cool, thanks
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KevinMarks
that would be a sidefile
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KevinMarks
aaronpk has another approach
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aaronpk
"JSON-LD can be provided as islands embedded in HTML" http://www.seoskeptic.com/json-ld-google-knowledge-graph-schema-org-seo/
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KevinMarks
you cna get any of his pages as json because he will parse the html for you
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todrobbins
so does microformats support linked data in the attribute values?
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aaronpk
heh from that same page "The challenge is keeping the JSON-LD data in sync with what appears on the page"
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todrobbins
meaning, attributes (foaf, for instance) and values (URIs)
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aaronpk
I suppose so! what would that look like...
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aaronpk
mf2 is ultimately a relatively small set of parsing rules, and the parsing rules are not connected with the vocabulary at all
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KevinMarks
in general, instead of attributes it uses text, html, urls, dates from the page
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todrobbins
does microformats place vocabulary in a secondary rank? I need to refresh my understanding of the current state of microformats, but it seems there wasn’t much crosswalking/sensemaking between the what hcard might describe and what some other ontology/vocab/what-have-you similarly described
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KevinMarks
yes, that was the key change with microformats 2
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todrobbins
I should note I come from a information science background, so you’ll have to forgive my angle at times
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KevinMarks
there's now a consistent parsing model that si not bound to vocabulary http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
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todrobbins
then that’s what I need to study
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KevinMarks
we have backwards compatible parsing form microformats 1 in the parsers too
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todrobbins
ps: aaronpk that SWAT0 demo is the bananas
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KevinMarks
but you cna express any vocabulary in mf2, which was the point of my schema post
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todrobbins
cna? (sorry!)
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KevinMarks
s/cna/can/
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Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: but you can express any vocabulary in mf2, which was the point of my schema post
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todrobbins
ah gotcha, this is really helpful guys
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KevinMarks
and we have a lot of existing parsers in multiple languages that parse consistently
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KevinMarks
(with tests)
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todrobbins
where should I read to get up to speed on mf2?
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todrobbins
thanks aaronpk
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todrobbins
do any of the Schema partners index mf2?
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todrobbins
do they display customized search results based on h-card, for instance?
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KevinMarks
some of them index mf1
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KevinMarks
it's not very clear tbh; what search engines index is always a bit hit and miss as a lot of it is heuristics
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aaronpk
that was a fun little exercise
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aaronpk
I tried adpting the radio episode example from KevinMarks' post to a slightly different JSON-LD representation in mf2
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aaronpk
it's very close
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KevinMarks
h-http:\/\/schema.org\/RadioSeries what?
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aaronpk
(I expanded the @context from the JSON-LD example)
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KevinMarks
is that why the dates are crap again?
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KevinMarks
does the JSON-LD just not do dates right?
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aaronpk
oops no i just forgot the dt-
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KevinMarks
the irony being so did the schema people
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KevinMarks
on this page, only 1 example has ISO dates in the JSON-LD https://schema.org/BroadcastService
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aaronpk
"19:45 on the 2nd of June" is really not an ISO date right?
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KevinMarks
it's certainly not the one true format; it may be one of the innumerable variants, but it doen't look like any of them either
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KevinMarks
it's not any of the ones in this list, for example https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/date-parsing.html
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aaronpk
i think i got comment/like/repost handling done for my new site
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Loqi
[bridgy] Henne Vogelsang replied '@jkphl awesome!' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/henne/status/651349968565981184)
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KevinMarks
with webactions?
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aaronpk
hah no
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aaronpk
i'm just trying to get back to par with my current site
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aaronpk
i want to launch this ASAP, *then* I will start adding new features
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aaronpk
I just don't want to launch with too many features lost
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aaronpk
getting there. hope to make more progress during tomorrow's HWC
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todrobbins
what is ‘h-http'
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todrobbins
h-card http type?
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KevinMarks
what is that, aaronpk?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "that, aaronpk" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1047
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@dangillmor
@kevinmarks yes; IndieWeb kinds of things are the best long-term answer for a lot of this @mmasnick @pmarca
(twitter.com/_/status/651638278664376320)
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@kevinmarks
RT @dangillmor: @kevinmarks yes; IndieWeb kinds of things are the best long-term answer for a lot of this @mmasnick @pmarca
(twitter.com/_/status/651638337741045761)
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@kevinmarks
RT @dangillmor: @kevinmarks yes; IndieWeb kinds of things are the best long-term answer for a lot of this @mmasnick @pmarca
(twitter.com/_/status/651638423447404544)
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KevinMarks
hm, twitter glitch retweeted twice
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kylewm
todrobbins: that's a weird shim to represent a schema.org vocabulary in microformats
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kylewm
h-http... that is
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KevinMarks
hm, so if i subscribe to a wordpress site in woodwindas hfeed, it doesn't get timestamps?
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todrobbins
thanks kylewm
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todrobbins
good night all! And thank you KevinMarks and aaronpk for being patient with my questions
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Loqi
goodnight!
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kylewm
KevinMarks: does the wordpress hfeed specify 'published' dates?
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tantek
aaronpk that's a bummer about etherpad.mozilla.org - odd that it was handled that way with the old.etherpad-mozilla
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tantek
guess we have a bunch of links to fix?
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tantek
and I have no idea how many open tabs I have for etherpad.mozilla.org on how many machines. sigh.
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tantek
not sure we've actually archived all sessions to the wiki
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tantek
what is a mooc?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "mooc" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1048
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tantek
what are data islands?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "data islands" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1049
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tantek
data islands are defunct technique for adding DRY-violating invisible data to HTML pages (AKA sidecar metadata), first introduced then abandoned by Microsoft as XML Data Islands, and more recently, by Google as JSON(LD) embedded in HTML.
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loqi.me
created /data_islands (+264) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-06/line/1444198529403 and dfn added by tantek"
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@benward
Wonders how on earth the WHATWG list went from zero to 700 unread messages without him noticing. Elects not to start writing ‘This week in HTML5’ ever.
(twitter.com/_/status/882773)
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harryreeder.co.uk
edited /next-hwc (+0) "HWC Europe Over, Next HWC -> HWC US"
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@dominik
It looks like Twitter broke IndieAuth be putting a http://t.co short url into the rel=”me”… https://lostfocus.de/13048-2/
(twitter.com/_/status/651707646387580928)
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@dominik
It looks like Twitter broke IndieAuth by putting a http://t.co short url into the rel=”me”… https://lostfocus.de/13048-2/
(twitter.com/_/status/651707891355938817)
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@Rosaemerald
RT @Lottejackson: Homebrew website club is back tomorrow. Come and join us from 6pm - 7:30pm. https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club
(twitter.com/_/status/651711119246118912)
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@lostfocus
It Looks Like Twitter Broke Indieauth By Putting A http://T.co Short Url Into The Rel=”me” Link. Ugh. https://lostfocus.de/13048-2/
(twitter.com/_/status/651713145451491329)
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell aaronpk do you have a list of all the push notifications (phone notifications) that you have needed? Such as 'tagged you in a photo' ' mentioned you' etc
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
good morning
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Loqi
aaronpk: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 1 hour, 32 minutes ago: do you have a list of all the push notifications (phone notifications) that you have needed? Such as 'tagged you in a photo' ' mentioned you' etc http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444223241764
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aaronpk
good question
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aaronpk
so I saw this on twitter this morning and thought it was a joke/parody
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aaronpk
"The Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) Project is an open source initiative that embodies the vision that publishers can create mobile optimized content once and have it load instantly everywhere."
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aaronpk
I thought it was going to be a joke promotion to get publishers to write plain HTML pages with no javascript bogging down the page
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aaronpk
"AMP HTML is a new way to make web pages that are optimized to load instantly on users’ mobile devices."
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aaronpk
turns out it's not a joke, but is basically that
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aaronpk
a "subset" of HTML
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Zegnat
But with custom elements / web components as well, aaronpk
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Zegnat
https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ - “AMP components may have JavaScript under the hood”
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Zegnat
If I understand it right, they forbid the use of JS outright? Fits perfectly with tantek's js;dr then. No JS apart from components they themselves have created, that is.
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aaronpk
oh it's the google thing
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aaronpk
if you look at the demo, they launch an in-browser full screen popup that shows the contents of the story right on the google search results
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Zegnat
There is some weird stuff in there too. They limit what CSS you are allowed to use (for speed? don’t know) but allow any @font-face inclusion. Which is a much bigger bottleneck than any CSS
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aaronpk
that's good
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aaronpk
basically they want the structured content from the publisher so that they can reformat it to show in their own page
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aaronpk
interesting, here's a NYT article with AMP HTML
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aaronpk
amazing, it loads almost instantly ;)
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Zegnat
Well, I don’t really care who starts the initiative and for what reasons. Less crap around articles will be a plus in my book
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aaronpk
we'll see if it translates to their main site too, cause they may only be updating the HTML on their mobile site
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Zegnat
I think there is a big incentive for publishers to *not* have it as their main site yet. The fact AMP limits advertisement and tracking possibilities comes to mind.
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Zegnat
s/tracking/analytics/
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Loqi
Zegnat meant to say: I think there is a big incentive for publishers to *not* have it as their main site yet. The fact AMP limits advertisement and analytics possibilities comes to mind.
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shanehudson.net
edited /2015/Brighton (-1) "/* Remote Attending */"
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ShaneHudson_
It appears that the wiki is broken for https images?
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aaronpk
what do you mean?
#
ShaneHudson_
My image wasn't appearing, changed to HTTP instead of HTTPS and it worked. It should be HTTPS
#
aaronpk
still don't know what you mean
#
ShaneHudson_
It breaks and shows nothing/the broken image box
#
ShaneHudson_
Thought my site had gone down lol
#
aaronpk
looks fine to me
#
ShaneHudson_
Oh that's odd... maybe a bug in browser then
#
Zegnat
ShaneHudson_, my console shows a 403 Forbidden for your avatar on https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=2015/Brighton&oldid=20711
#
aaronpk
the wiki doesn't do anything with hotlinked images, it just writes it to the <img> tag
#
aaronpk
(i'm going to have to proxy those eventually so that the wiki is https-only but that's a project for another day)
#
ShaneHudson_
Zegnat: So is it something I'm doing nginx side? I see quite a few broken images on that page
#
ShaneHudson_
My HTTP should redirect to HTTPS anyway, so not sure the difference
#
aaronpk
well one of the broken images is because someone has an invalid ssl cert
#
aaronpk
a lot of them just don't have images
#
ShaneHudson_
Ah fair enough heh
#
aaronpk
another one looks like they lost their hosting account
#
aaronpk
another one is 502 bad gateway
#
aaronpk
yup all legit errors or no images in the first place
#
aaronpk
i should totally use my avatar archive that webmention.io is using to save the external images that are linked from the wiki
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ShaneHudson_
I've always liked the idea of somehow proxying dead links to archive.org or alternative archived sites. But think it could very quickly become a massive project
#
Zegnat
I wonder why your image is being blocked, ShaneHudson_, I can’t really see any differences between the HTTP and HTTPS one
#
ShaneHudson_
I presume it is my fault somewhere down the line
#
Zegnat
Although Safari’s developer tools have problems with it too
#
todrobbins
aaronpk: I just saw the comment by tantek about etherpad.mozilla.org. what happened there?
#
aaronpk
they're archiving their old etherpad installation
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ShaneHudson_
Well it is called ether pad, at least they made no false pretenses. Unlike Google Keep
#
aaronpk
hahaha
#
Loqi
hehe
#
Zegnat
ShaneHudson_, HTTP vs HTTPS: http://imgur.com/a/4Oq4o
#
ShaneHudson_
... that doesn't make sense. The image loaded, must have content :/
#
todrobbins
ShaneHudson_++
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Loqi
ShaneHudson has 16 karma
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Zegnat
I know, and the headers on the right seem to be exactly the same for both, so I am clueless as to a difference
#
ShaneHudson_
Yeah. I am going to ignore it for now. Sounds like it could be a cloudflare thing
#
ShaneHudson_
Used to host DNS myself but I couldn't keep up with blocking the attacks
#
aaronpk
oh this is cloudflare?
#
aaronpk
all bets are off then
#
ShaneHudson_
So they can deal with it until they shut down
#
ShaneHudson_
Very true. I had forgotten until I read those headers
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todrobbins
aaronpk: does the chat from the public pads get collected by indiewebcamp as well?
#
aaronpk
i don't think anyone has copied that over
#
aaronpk
there also hasn't been much on those chats since we have IRC
#
todrobbins
cool, just curious if that was a concern
#
todrobbins
just for LOCKSS
wolftune, ttepasse and j12t joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
so, AMP requires schema and bans SVG o_O
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KevinMarks
apparently they allow some svg now but didn't update the spec o_O
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Zegnat
I thought aaronpk had a tweet saying they don’t *require* schema?
#
Zegnat
They ban a lot of stuff though, and some things feel a bit random to me (CSS selectors? Seriously?) while other things that are performance hit on mobile are completely fine (@font-face)
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KevinMarks
"AMP HTML documents MUST be marked up with schema.org/CreativeWork or any of its more specific types such as schema.org/NewsArticle or schema.org/BlogPosting. More types may be added in the future."
#
KevinMarks
Both JSON-LD and microdata serializations of schema.org are supported.
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aaronpk
Zegnat: no I said they *do* require schema
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@aaronpk
@cramforce oh? Interesting! I saw that http://schema.org is required and assumed that Google is getting the content from there.
(twitter.com/_/status/651773224141766657)
#
aaronpk
the google guy said schema wasn't required
#
Zegnat
Ah, alrighty, got your tweet mixed up with him reply then!
#
Zegnat
s/him/his/
#
Loqi
Zegnat meant to say: Ah, alrighty, got your tweet mixed up with his reply then!
#
KevinMarks
just the tip of schema
snarfed joined the channel
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KevinMarks
OK, they added svg back in
shiflett joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
so I'm on TWiG to argue with Jarvis about this, so lets work through it
#
aaronpk
oh nice
#
Zegnat
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 170 karma
#
KevinMarks
jarvis: "Imagine starting a new media service without a web site"
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aaronpk
interesting
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KevinMarks
hm. I'd like to hear tantek's views on the layout stuff
#
bear
that buzzmachine link is taking a lot of time to load...
#
KevinMarks
I read it in woodwind
tantek joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /data_islands (+594) "history, see also"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
OK, what should I convert to AMP to ab/test?
#
tantek
what is AMP?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "AMP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104A
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aaronpk
augh the new namecheap control panel is a huge step backwards
#
aaronpk
i used to be able to see my whole list of domains on one screen, now I can only see 5 and I have to scroll
#
tantek
what is namecheap?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "namecheap" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104B
#
aaronpk
NameCheap is a domain registration company http://namecheap.com
#
aaronpk
case sensitive?
#
aaronpk
namecheap is a domain registration company http://namecheap.com
#
aaronpk
go Loqi go
#
tantek
Loqi, y u ignore aaronpk?
#
KevinMarks
AMP is Accelerated Mobile Pages, a google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml
#
KevinMarks
did I miss the window?
#
aaronpk
uhoh i wonder if my SSL change just now broke something
#
aaronpk
yup. Loqi is running on a server that's too old and can no longer talk to the wiki
#
Loqi
yeah!
#
aaronpk
oh you already knew that
#
tantek
KevinMarks: feel free to add to https://indiewebcamp.com/data_islands
snarfed joined the channel
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loqi.me
created /NameCheap (+133) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
in today's lesson in domain registration management, Aaron learns that when you transfer a domain between registrars, the contact info stays the same. If your previous registrar used "whois privacy" and published their own proxy email, the proxy email transfers over too.
#
aaronpk
this means when your new registrar tries to contact you via the email address onthe domain, the emails don't go through, because the previous registrar stops forwarding the emails since the domain isn't with them anymore
#
tantek
wow that sounds worth documenting on ...
#
tantek
what is a domain registrar?
#
Loqi
A domain name registrar is an organization that will register domain names for you typically for an annual fee https://indiewebcamp.com/domain_registrar
#
tantek
yeah that
nitot joined the channel
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loqi.me
created /DNSimple (+98) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear"
(view diff)
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loqi.me
created /root_server (+87) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear"
(view diff)
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tantek
bear++
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Loqi
bear has 74 karma
#
tantek
I fully expect that eventually bear will end up educating all of us (and Loqi) on sysadmin / devops 101
#
tantek
and maybe, just maybe we can help simplify all of that for the next generation
#
loqi.me
created /bind_server (+136) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear"
(view diff)
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loqi.me
created /BIND (+116) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by bear"
(view diff)
[kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
This may be a better AMP starting link https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/
#
bear
one of my longer term goals at &yet is to make open source ops more of a real thing
#
bear
breaking down what I do daily into a series of recipes that people can learn from and use
#
bear
an opinionated collection of best practices
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ShaneHudson_
I always forget you are at &yet. One of my favourite companies on earth heh
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#
KevinMarks
what is AMP?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "AMP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104M
#
KevinMarks
AMP is Accelerated Mobile Pages, a google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml
#
loqi.me
created /AMP (+194) "prompted by KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444237606570 and dfn added by KevinMarks"
(view diff)
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snarfed
AMP, wow. what the i don't even
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aaronpk
i can do that :)
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aaronpk
heh they already use rel=canonical
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KevinMarks
right, they are google
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aaronpk
whoa the json-ld example has a ton of invisible metadata
#
aaronpk
the publisher info is only in the JSON-LD island
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KevinMarks
right - the page doesn't show the content
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aaronpk
the microdata example they moved it into the body of the page
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KevinMarks
which is at least not DRY, just evrbose
#
KevinMarks
should I translate this post into AMP ? http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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aaronpk
ha sure
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aaronpk
hm does h-entry have any concept of "publisher" (different from author)
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ben_thatmustbeme
wait, did they put an emoji lightening bolt in to the HTML tag as a requirement??
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tantek
aaronpk - it does not, however h-cite does
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: not required, you can use AMP instead
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aaronpk
tantek: that doens't work in this case. this is an article which is specifying the publisher of the same article
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aaronpk
but it's the canonical URL of the article, not a citation of it
#
tantek
aaronpk - I'm saying there have been use-cases to justify a "publisher" in h-cite, but not yet in h-entry
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tantek
ah sorry, p-publication specifically: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Properties
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aaronpk
hm that's also different
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tantek
that's what we found data for
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aaronpk
wtf why doesn't this parse
#
aaronpk
<body class="h-entry"> is allowed right?
#
tantek
which parser?
#
aaronpk
oh boy, it's the weird style tag that's breaking it
#
aaronpk
php parser
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aaronpk
when this is in the <head> it doesn't find the h-entry tag
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aaronpk
<style>body {opacity: 0}</style><noscript><style>body {opacity: 1}</style></noscript>
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aaronpk
i don't even understand why that would be a thing
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tantek
so that the page can use script to fade the body opacity from 0 to 1
#
aaronpk
no i mean why that would break it
#
[kevinmarks]
Seems like it makes the page invisible?
#
aaronpk
python parser doesn't see the content either
#
aaronpk
node one is fine
#
tantek
the node parser is amazing
#
tantek
having thoroughly code reviewed it and its test suite / harness
#
[kevinmarks]
The closest thing to publisher may be source-org from hnews http://microformats.org/wiki/hnews#Additional_Fields
#
tantek
google has rel=publisher too right?
#
aaronpk
i'm just gonna run the node parser on an AWS Lambda URL and use that for everyhting :P
#
tantek
what is AWS Lambda?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "AWS Lambda" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104N
#
aaronpk
what is Lambda?
#
Loqi
Lambda is a service from Amazon Web Services that runs individual functions of code rather than running a server https://indiewebcamp.com/Lambda
#
aaronpk
AWS Lambda is [[Lambda]]
#
loqi.me
created /AWS_Lambda (+19) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444239454418 and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
#
[kevinmarks]
How does that break the python parser?
#
aaronpk
same way it breaks the php parser :P
#
[kevinmarks]
We have 3 parser options, it may break the shitty built-in one, but lxml and html5lib should work
#
tantek
can you file bugs upstream?
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aaronpk
the fact that both php and python break would indicate it's an mf2 problem rather than an html problem
#
tantek
nah - more likely they copied the same parser bug
#
aaronpk
the top-level object on the page is the nested author h-card
#
aaronpk
it's not like it returns an empty result
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tantek
if it's not seeing the body class=h-entry, then it's the parser's fault
#
tantek
obv that should be in the DOM
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aaronpk
ading h-entry to the html tag makes it work
#
kylewm
html5lib and lxml handle <noscript> very differently
#
aaronpk
well I don't know how the parsers work anyway. where should I file bugs?
#
aaronpk
we need to get all the parsers using the same test suite so we can start adding these examples to all of them easily
#
[kevinmarks]
We did start on that
#
aaronpk
<link class="u-url" href="..."> should work too right?
#
[kevinmarks]
I spent a chunk of time on getting the python parser working with the general test suite
#
aaronpk
i'm willing to do that with the php one
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[kevinmarks]
The node one already does
#
kylewm
it's a big job
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kylewm
oh bummer, looks like testrunner-47055.onmodulus.net is gone/down
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
aaronpk
wow the googlebot github account makes you sign a CLA when you submit a PR
#
aaronpk
super automated process, but the bot is commenting on github like an actual account!
#
aaronpk
very clever
#
[kevinmarks]
I wonder if that is willnorris
#
tantek
willnorris turned himself into a bot?
#
kylewm
rustlang has a bot that automatically randomly assigns a reviewer for PRs
#
kylewm
I thought that was cool
nitot joined the channel
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[kevinmarks]
Will did a lot of the github integration for Google
#
@Souders
Like seeing @google's focus on mobile #WebPerf w/ AMP announcement. Custom elements prevents lookahead parser tho. https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/
(twitter.com/_/status/651817063464370176)
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tantek
indeed. one does not need custom elements for mobile performance. that smells of an excuse to use "new shiny".
#
[kevinmarks]
They replace img and video with custom elements
#
[kevinmarks]
With required pixel width and height
#
[kevinmarks]
And their own layout model
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aaronpk
anyone want to review that example before I send the PR?
#
[kevinmarks]
The p-name is implied in the author h-card
#
aaronpk
hm, I kind of like having it be explicit tho
#
KevinMarks
their logo 404s
#
aaronpk
it was in their examples
#
KevinMarks
I know, not blaming you
#
aaronpk
i thought that was weird too
#
KevinMarks
hm, I bet we don't see src urls on amp-img
KartikPrabhu and aaronpk joined the channel
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kylewm
+1 kevin on removing <span class="p-name">
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bear
ugh - AMP is allowing vendors to define custom tags like <amp-twitter> -- https://blog.twitter.com/2015/introducing-accelerated-mobile-pages-0
#
tantek
why is that useful?
aaronpk joined the channel
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KevinMarks
it lets you embed tweets. it overrides benward's nice blockquote fallback
#
tantek
silos encouraging more proprietary markup
#
Loqi
[mention] Caro Seidel and Amy Muller were invited to https://webmention.io/notification/tKYxVk7FS9cb02zrzMzJzw
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tantek
does the ampproject site itself use amp? it's too slow to load for me to bother finding out.
#
aaronpk
updated the example to remove the span tag
#
tantek
simplermarkup++
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Loqi
simplermarkup has 1 karma
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[kevinmarks]
Some of it does
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snarfed
googlebot++ aaronpk, agreed, the new automated CLA process is light years better than the old process(es)
#
Loqi
googlebot has 1 karma
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aaronpk
okay I *think* I updated my SSL cert everywhere it's used. Guess I'll find out on Friday if things start breaking
#
bear
at least you updated it before the ocsp window hit
#
bear
that time when ocsp caches have your old cert but you've just updated to a new one
#
aaronpk
uhoh what's the ocsp window?
#
aaronpk
oh man
#
aaronpk
didn't even think about that
#
aaronpk
SSL is hard
#
bear
startssl is very fast with updates - so you won't get a lot of breakage today
#
tantek
what is OCSP window?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "OCSP window" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104P
#
aaronpk
oops no still a few more places :P
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tantek
I hope you're keeping a list of these places, to then add to /HTTPS#Maintenance !
#
aaronpk
i am, but it's all very specific to my servers, not really useful generally
#
aaronpk
the scary thing is this cert expires in 2 years which means I am very likely going to not remember this
hs0ucy joined the channel
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tantek
exactly
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bear
OCSP window is that small amount of time between when your SSL certificate vendor registers your new cert and when the browser update their certificate cache
#
loqi.me
created /OCSP_window (+184) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444242658921 and dfn added by bear"
(view diff)
#
tantek
HTTPS - how to make your website more fragile without anyone attacking it!
#
aaronpk
CloudFlare is looking like a really good option
#
tantek
HTTPS is like the inkjet business model for CAs.
#
bear
pfft - I could say the same thing about most developers ;)
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aaronpk
it's a magic SSL layer in front of your site
#
aaronpk
i'm using this cert not only on web stuff tho. mail server, IRC server, IRC bouncer
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tantek
aaronpk, supposedly LetsEncrypt is going to solve the cert update problem
#
tantek
I'll believe it when it ships and does its first automated update
#
aaronpk
cloudflare is still more magic
XgF joined the channel
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tantek
what is cloudflare?
#
Loqi
CloudFlare is a service to, in their own words, "supercharge your website" https://indiewebcamp.com/CloudFlare
#
tantek
we have contact(s) there too
#
tantek
they want to host an HWC or IWC one day if possible
#
aaronpk
oh nice
#
aaronpk
where are they based?
#
tantek
one of their folks (Lauren B) has been to a bunch of our HWC SF meetups
#
tantek
(Lauren B )
#
aaronpk
man i wonder what it'd take so that I can stop running this mail server
#
tantek
aside, just told CSSWG folks who lost their Moz Etherpad tool they could use ours if they don't mind that everything they type into it goes CC0 / Public Domain
#
bear
cloudflare works because they have automated the hard part of doing HTTPS over a CDN while reducing the amount of cdn grief you normally get
#
tantek
this was in # css on the W3C IRC server
#
tantek
aaronpk, consider lurking in # css on W3C IRC
#
tantek
(e.g. when you're connected to # social on there)
#
aaronpk
i thought mozilla launched the new etherpad
#
cleverdevil
let me know if DreamHost can help in any way, btw.
#
cleverdevil
happy to do what we can.
#
aaronpk
cleverdevil: with SSL stuff?
#
cleverdevil
well, honestly, with anything infrastructure related for IndieWeb efforts.
#
cleverdevil
I can't guarantee help in every case, but I can always be an advocate :)
#
aaronpk
cool thanks
#
aaronpk
okay *now* i have the cert everywhere
#
GWG
!tell tantek I have a use case for publisher in an h-entry or h-feed, see site name.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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#
voxpelli
anyone done a mapping between https://developers.facebook.com/docs/instant-articles/reference and how to parse eg. an h-entry?
#
voxpelli
apart from a few "op-" properties like "op-published" and "op-ad" it's mostly just basic html tags and thus fairly similar to how one could interpret an h-entry
KartikPrabhu and eschnou joined the channel
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aaronpk
I just re-read the PuSH spec and it says the notifications need to have HTTP headers for rel=hub and rel=self. pretty sure Switchboard is not sending those.
#
aaronpk
kylewm: have you noticed any issues receiving pings from Switchboard?
#
kylewm
not that i'm aware of
#
aaronpk
you must be using a unique subscription URL per feed then
#
aaronpk
and you aren't using any contents of the POST from the hubs other than the URL that was POSTed to, right?
#
voxpelli
including the rel-hub must be to enable the move to a new hub and the rel-self to know what content that is actually being pushed?
#
kylewm
aaronpk: yeah unique subscription url -- I use the X-Hub-Signature if provided but no other headers
#
aaronpk
huh okay
#
aaronpk
yeah if you're using a unique subscription URL that's enough to identify what is being updated. if you're using the same one you'd need to use the rel=self value from the header
#
aaronpk
funny cause the spec also says it's "good practice" to use a unique subscription URL
#
voxpelli
talked to someone about paginated pages and PuSH and the pushed URL doesn't necessairly have to match the subscribed one
#
voxpelli
you can subscribe to the first page, but receive an update for the third page for example
#
aaronpk
is rel=self useful in that case for some reason?
#
voxpelli
hmm, that doesn't matter here when I think again because the rel-self would still be the same I guess
#
aaronpk
and still if you're using a unique subscription URL it doesn't matter
#
voxpelli
yeah, it's probably just to make simple implementations easier
#
voxpelli
the rel-hub is the more interesting one – enabling the move from one hub to another
#
kylewm
voxpelli: what would a push for the third page look like?
#
aaronpk
voxpelli: is the implication that if the subscriber gets a rel=hub that's a different value than was used, they should create a subscription on the new hub?
#
aaronpk
i don't quite follow that
#
voxpelli
aaronpk: that's how I would interpret such a push
#
voxpelli
kylewm: just the content of the third page with the same rel-self I think, was a while since I discussed it
#
aaronpk
huh, that's not mentioned in the spec at all, which just says "with rel=hub pointing to the Hub" which kind of implies it would be the same hub that was subscribed to
#
kylewm
maybe just a sanity check?
#
voxpelli
maybe it's not meant to communicate a hub switch, but it would make sense to use it for one and it would be useful to have a way to communicate something like that :)
#
@superfeedr
@voxpelli well yes exactly. That's the point of using a "self". Details by email maybe?
(twitter.com/_/status/645664173259649024)
#
aaronpk
it would probably be useful to be able to indicate a hub switch. otoh as soon as the subscription expires the subscriber is going to find the new hub anyway
#
voxpelli
that reasoning also shines some light on why rel-self isn't the same as rel-canonical
#
kylewm
voxpelli: i think i would interpret that exchange differently
#
kylewm
you said "i expected push subscriptions to be for the exact url" and he said "yes exactly"
#
voxpelli
right, I realize there's some ambiguity in that exchange now, I guess I have to sort that out with Julien
#
voxpelli
one challenge with PuSH when it comes to Crud is what happens with items that has fallen of the first page of a feed
#
kylewm
very similar to the problem i'm having thinking through how to fetch likes and comments and show them in woodwind
#
aaronpk
yepyep
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snarfed
ambitious
#
snarfed
it'll be an awesome feature, but i definitely don't envy you implementing it kylewm
#
snarfed
amusingly i actually had to to the opposite and *strip* like/comment/share counts in https://facebook-atom.appspot.com/ because they made stories reappear over and over when they changed
#
voxpelli
kylewm: in the spirit of Salmention a received like or comment should trigger a PuSH
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voxpelli
so yeah, very similar, if PuSH has support for pages (which it might already perhaps have with a liberal interpretation of the spec) then that would be enough
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voxpelli
snarfed: only in classic feed readers I guess? which weren't checking for unique id:s or URL:s to find duplicates?
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aaronpk
the spec is meant to be interpreted liberally so go for it?
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kylewm
snarfed: ha KevinMarks mentioned that. i probably won't do an ambitious implementation, at least at first. tantek suggested just fetching like and comment count on demand (maybe on a click). that would be a good proof of concept
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loqi.me
created /Instant_Articles (+233) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by KevinMarks"
(view diff)
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tantek
earlier I asked what is Instant Articles?
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KevinMarks
FB's is mostly POSH
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Loqi
tantek: GWG left you a message 1 hour, 8 minutes ago: I have a use case for publisher in an h-entry or h-feed, see site name. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444243764056
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tantek
GWG, that's publication - not publisher. which we have in h-cite - and likely would work for site name too
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voxpelli
Instant articles is almost a microformats approach – only weird thing is their geo-data
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tantek
GWG, want to start gathering examples? http://microformats.org/wiki/publication-examples
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tantek
subsequently I asked do we have history of proprietary silo markup failures?
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KevinMarks
Apple's is not defined publicly yet.
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tantek
does it have a name?
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tantek
like Apple News or iOS News or ?
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tantek
is it iOS only?
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aaronpk
oh right
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aaronpk
omg this is the year of silo markup
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snarfed
voxpelli: even in modern readers with id handling. meh!
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tantek
voxpelli: anything geo related in RSS has a murky past, including the poorly named and defined GeoRSS
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aaronpk
i hope this doesn't kill the web
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tantek
(back when it was fashionable to suffix your "thing" with *RSS to make it sound cool, like MediaRSS or whatever it was called that Yahoo did)
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voxpelli
tantek: Instant Articles aren't RSS-based, RSS is simply a distribution mechanism for the HTML
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tantek
what weird trick did they do with geo then?
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voxpelli
embedded JSON
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tantek
more data islands?
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aaronpk
geo data does not really map to HTML very well
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aaronpk
no pun intended
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aaronpk
okay pun kind of intended
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tantek
😂😂😂
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tantek
hey is that geojson?
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voxpelli
good thing is that that's the only weird thing – the rest is class-based and HTML5-tags I thing
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voxpelli
tantek: yes
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tantek.com
edited /data_islands (+328) "Facebook instant articles geo data"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is GeoJSON?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "GeoJSON" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104R
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voxpelli
they link to the GeoJSON-site rather than documenting it themselves
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tantek
"element with the op-map class attached" ... "with the op-geotag class attached."
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tantek
huh, class names for semantics ;)
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tantek
voxpelli: is that what you meant by microformats approach?
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ShaneHudson_
GeoJSON is a standard format for geographic data, ranging from single points to collections of complicated polygons.
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loqi.me
created /GeoJSON (+143) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444248540604 and dfn added by ShaneHudson_"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
oh! there's an extra </script> tag
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voxpelli
tantek: the "op-published" and "op-modified" classes are very similar to their "dt-" counterparts
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tantek
fascinating
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voxpelli
and they use "op-" for some "h-" style classes as well
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aaronpk
oh darn that didn't fix the parser
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tantek
voxpelli: that means you have to know what the fixed op-* vocabulary is in order to parse it
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tantek
more classic microformats style
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voxpelli
yeah, but thinking it would be fairly easy to translate the "op-" classes to mf2-classes as they both share some commonalities
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aaronpk
ah too bad they didn't learn from mf1
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voxpelli
it's interesting to note that there's two prefixes just like in "open graph" – "op-" and "fb-"
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voxpelli
so they do distinguish between reusable prefixes and such that are purely meant for Facebook
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voxpelli
s/reusable prefixes/reusable classes/
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Loqi
voxpelli meant to say: so they do distinguish between reusable classes and such that are purely meant for Facebook
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aaronpk
hah well progress on my mf2 example
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KevinMarks
yuck contain a <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1,minimum-scale=1,maximum-scale=1,user-scalable=no,minimal-ui">
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aaronpk
at least now it'll be on record if they reject it
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ShaneHudson_
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 969 karma
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@muhhbot
Die ganzen IndieWeb Plugins für diese Jahresvorschauliste da mit aufnehmen
(twitter.com/_/status/651859150717255681)
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tantek
oh hey at least AMP appears to be listening to the js;dr lessons! (finally reading IRC scrollback)
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aaronpk
i thought font-face was banned too
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ShaneHudson_
I don't know much about amp but currently working with a CMS based on Wordpress that bans loads of things... driving me insane. Everything I do is ending up as a total hack.
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ShaneHudson_
(as if Wordpress wasn't bad enough! hah)
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aaronpk
ah there is a whitelist of supported fonts for @font-face
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tantek
ShaneHudson_: loads of things are YAGNI
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aaronpk
"Font providers can be whitelisted if they support CSS-only integrations and serve over HTTPS. The following origins are currently allowed for font serving via link tags: https://fonts.googleapis.com"
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KevinMarks
on twig now
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aaronpk
wait but then "Authors are free to include all custom fonts via a @font-face CSS instruction via their custom CSS. Fonts included via @font-face must be fetched via HTTP or HTTPS scheme."
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tantek
LOL https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/ uses <blockquote> for headings :(
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Loqi
it'll be ok
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aaronpk
i don't actually read those as headings, more like strangely large callouts
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tantek
except they're not callouts because they're not elsewhere in the doc
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aaronpk
good point
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tantek
AND when they do, they function more as headings than not, e.g. AMP HTML loves CSS!
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KevinMarks
on TWiG now, jeff is doign the big sell
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tantek
big sell of what?
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bear
of AMP
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bear
he (jeff) was at the event announcing this
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tantek
KevinMarks, keep saying js;dr as often as you can ;)
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ShaneHudson_
Who's behind it all anyway? Worth paying attention to at all?
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bear
KevinMarks - so will DRM'd video streams work with this google blessed js video tag?
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@ericlaw
"In fact, this page is, itself, an AMP HTML document." View Source: "PS: Technically this file is an invalid AMP HTML file."
(twitter.com/_/status/651852331596668928)
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aaronpk
all of the examples are invalid
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tantek
looks like they have some work to do
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KartikPrabhu
what is amp?
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Loqi
AMP is Accelerated Mobile Pages, a google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://indiewebcamp.com/AMP
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KartikPrabhu
is so confused by what amp is trying to do
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davidpea.ch
edited /scrobble (+90) "/* davidpea.ch */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: it makes sense when you do the demo on a phone
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aaronpk
visit this on a phone, the search for something like "obama" http://g.co/ampdemo
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aaronpk
or on desktop change your user agent to something that looks mobile
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KartikPrabhu
so if it speeds up things on mobile why not speed up things on desktop too?
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KevinMarks
does the validator work?
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KevinMarks
give me more reactions
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kylewm
it didn't work on my phone...
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cleverdevil
looks like its basically trying to be a more open version of FB instant articles and Apple News and the like.
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cleverdevil
at least, the technology behind it.
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KevinMarks
well, it will make desktop faster, sure
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aaronpk
well they support separate AMP files from the main site
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aaronpk
so nytimes and such are publishing two pages for every article
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kylewm
do you need to be using chrome on a mobile device?
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aaronpk
it actually worked pretty crappy in chrome on ios
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KartikPrabhu
nothing special happened on FF
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aaronpk
scrolling within the article was sloooowwwww
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: you should see special results at the top for the AMP-enabled search results
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KartikPrabhu
goes back to actual stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme
wait, would that work with node js?
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ben_thatmustbeme
or would it kill all the client side js?
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bear
only if your using nodejs to generate server side static pages
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bear
if your using dynamic pages at all it won't load your js
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aaronpk
right. at least they're encouraging people to publish html
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KartikPrabhu
seems like "lets make bloated webpages and add Google's bloat to unbloat them"
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aaronpk
with the exception of the crazy amp-img stuff
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KartikPrabhu
so why not just publish HTML
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KartikPrabhu
that's what I am confused by
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aaronpk
it's so they can have more control over the loading of the images and videos when displaying a page
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@t
Remember when I declared js;dr? #AMP: “not include author-written JavaScript, nor 3rd-party scripts” ... http://tantek.com/2015/280/t1/js-dr-amp-not-include-javascript
(twitter.com/_/status/651868490920390656)
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KartikPrabhu
yup sounds like Google's FB Instant Articles
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KartikPrabhu
no thanks. I am not writing random JSON crap in my HTML thanks
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tantek
hey Apple's thing has a name
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tantek
what is Apple News Publisher?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Apple News Publisher" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104S
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tantek
Apple News Publisher is https://developer.apple.com/news-publisher/ an iOS9 app for news and magazine stories that uses the Apple News Format.
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tantek
What is Apple News Format
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Apple News Format" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104T
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tantek
Apple News Format is an yet unspecified [[Apple]]-proprietary format for publishing news for iOS devices.
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loqi.me
created /Apple_News_Format (+132) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-07/line/1444252687586 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Apple_News_Format (+72) "coming soon citation"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk: who is @cramforce?
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tantek
ah: Tech lead of the AMP Project.
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@cramforce
A new approach to web performance. Today we are starting the AMP Project to make mobile web content fast again. https://www.ampproject.org/how-it-works/
(twitter.com/_/status/651762967147483136)
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@BoredElonMusk
Me: How do we make this rocket move faster? You: How do we make this mobile ad load faster?
(twitter.com/_/status/651797834031853568)
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bear
makes me wonder if google has thought about doing micropayments if AMP is used
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tantek
bear, that's not their business model
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KevinMarks
well, it is except the micropayments are ads
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bear
that's the point I was badly making - if AMP is used then it allows finer grained tracking of click/views with google blessed tech
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bear
hmm, google via AMP as a article broker
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KevinMarks
that is the demo
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KevinMarks
ok, what else is new?
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KartikPrabhu
is there a webmention protocol for handling address spoofing
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aaronpk
address spoofing?
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KartikPrabhu
yeah someone sends me a webmention pretending to be someone else. eg: second last webmention here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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KartikPrabhu
Have been thinking about it since I got a bunch of addressed spoofed emails from the Nobel Prize committe ;)
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aaronpk
bridgy basically does this
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KartikPrabhu
yes so I will ave to verify against some silo profile?
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aaronpk
you can check that the domain of the source URL matches the domain of the author
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aaronpk
that would block bridgy but would also block spoofing
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aaronpk
you could then whitelist bridgy and allow only bridgy (or whatever backfeed service your'e using) to spoof
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: if you want something bigger, e.g. check that the author is truly the person with the name and picture in the h-card, that's kinda either unsolvable or massively hard
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snarfed
you basically need to check id out of band, which...no
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aaronpk
haha yeah. i just went through this with startssl extended validation
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KartikPrabhu
not a problem with webmentions yet, but was thinking in comparison to email
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aaronpk
email is just as spoofable
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snarfed
although, hmm. using the "silos as plumbing" model, you could check that their profile is "verified" (or whatever it's called)
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KartikPrabhu
yes it is. I was wondering if webmention can be better than email there
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snarfed
gross idea - forget i suggested it - but still
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aaronpk
attempts to solve email are actually worse than the source URL + author URL check IMO
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snarfed
email has DKIM etc, webmention has vouch
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aaronpk
you don't need vouch to reject spoofed webmentions
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snarfed
aaronpk: you do if they serve the h-card url, image, etc all from their domain
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snarfed
having said that, this is so far not a problem in practice
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snarfed
i suggest we maybe wikify it and then drop it :P
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KartikPrabhu
yes, so far not a problem
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aaronpk
i would say that is more along the lines of spam
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snarfed
similar to phishing
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tantek
pretty sure this is all already documented on the wiki - did any of you bother to check?
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snarfed
even better!
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tantek
feel free to improve on that!
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snarfed
at least the domain check idea
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snarfed
otherwise: tons of prior art, huge nerd snipe tarpit, and not an actual problem we have yet...all good reasons to deprioritize with a vengeance
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aaronpk
the domain check idea only works in conjunction with receiving a webmention
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tantek
also, let the race to make AMP smaller begin: https://twitter.com/t/status/651876961971646465
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@t
@chrismessina we can make #AMP smaller: * script: ban JSONLD * meta: ban "property" attr, schema-org make ... http://tantek.com/2015/280/t2/make-amp-smaller-ban-jsonld-schema-org
(twitter.com/_/status/651876961971646465)
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tantek
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 145 karma
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aaronpk
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 146 karma
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tantek
OTOH I'm more than happy to fuel the nerd snipe fire for minimizing HTML that AMP appears to be sparking
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: aah cool. my bad for not checking on wiki first
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tantek
we've already been doing that in IndieWeb for quite some time (minimizing HTML) out of laziness / efficiency. but I repeat myself.
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KartikPrabhu
but also no potential solution documented but that is ok as low priority
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's ok, feel free to add anything new you think of (whether question, solution, ideas) to that page
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Loqi
aaronpk has 970 karma
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tantek.com
edited /AMP (+250) "IndieWeb support - link to pull request, see also"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
so, do we have a thing to recommend to leo et al that will actually work?
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tantek
KevinMarks by "actually work" presumably you mean "has been user tested on someone other than Leo"?
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KevinMarks
I don't want that experience again
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tantek
you could user test with someone else, whatever you were thinking of demoing to Leo
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KevinMarks
whats new and demos well since I was last on?
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tantek
KevinMarks: have you checked the last week in the indieweb page(s)?
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KevinMarks
quill email? that was cool
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aaronpk
that will work as long as you put the quill email address in the "To" field
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tantek
comments are every publishers & producers problem
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KevinMarks
I can talk about motherboard with jeff
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tantek
keep repeating the message that we have and are using a solution, and your message may eventually get through
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KevinMarks
I'll discuss the comments thing
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aaronpk
gotta launch my new site first tho
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aaronpk
I have some fun plans for Monocle up my sleeve
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bear
what is Monocle
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Loqi
Monocle is an open source IndieWeb-enabled reader developed by Aaron Parecki https://indiewebcamp.com/Monocle
Nissyen and mlncn joined the channel
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aaronpk
oh dear
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aaronpk
we have two planning pages
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KevinMarks
thats poor planNing
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bear
haha
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tantek
it's fine. first half of the year, and 2nd half of the year!
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KartikPrabhu
not sure a capitalisation connotes that
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tantek
no - and it's why I was planning things on /2015/ first
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tantek
which somehow got moved to /2015/planning :/
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Nissyen
PlanningFirstHalf and planning_second_half
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tantek
the /2015/Planning is literally only for the main annual
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KartikPrabhu
the irony grows
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tantek
as in planning for *the* 2015 IndieWebCamp
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gRegorLove
suggests /planningPlanning to plan the planning pages. ;)
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KartikPrabhu
or the other 2 variants
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aaronpk
clearly we need /planningplanningplanning to plan the name for the page to plan the planning pages
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KartikPrabhu
oh no! 2^3 combinations now
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gRegorLove
We should move this discussion to the mailing list... :D
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Loqi
I agree
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KartikPrabhu
eventually we'll hit a singularity and the wiki will become sentient enough to plan its own planning
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Nissyen
Discussion of that should be on the planningPlanningSentience page
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KartikPrabhu
this is where tantek kicks us out to #indiechat
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gRegorLove
On-topic, should planning for the year be at /2015-planning, leaving /2015/planning as planning for the IWC events that year?
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aaronpk
what about just /Planning
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aaronpk
that way there's no confusion between planning a specific event vs a bunch of events
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gRegorLove
With a section for each year on /Planning? Sounds good.
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gRegorLove
Archive them to /Planning/YYYY ?
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tantek
ugh I hope not
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tantek
planning-centric seems badly bureaucratic
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gRegorLove
Just tossing out ideas
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gRegorLove
Heh, /2015/planning even has a 2016 section
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tantek
the point was that for any IWC related home page blahblahYearLocation
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tantek
that all subpages be blahblahYearLocation/subpage
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aaronpk
i'm sorry I brought this up. I just went to go look up the status of 2015/SF and couldn't find it because I was on the wrong planning page
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KevinMarks
hm, the validator doesn't demand schema
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KevinMarks
so <amp-twitter></amp-twitter> doesn't treat it's contents as fallback
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KartikPrabhu
that seems to be a probelm with web components in general. Custom tags but no need to specify good default fallback behaviour
nitot joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
adactio wrote about this a while back: https://adactio.com/journal/7967