#indiewebcamp 2015-11-20

2015-11-20 UTC
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kylewm kevinmarks: looks like items from excluded feeds are still being pushed to woodwind when it gets updates, I'll work on filtering those out too
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tantek good evening #Indiewebcamp!
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[snarfed] evening!
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kevinmarks evening all
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GWG Evening, all previously mentioning good evening
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@t Grateful for #IndieWeb & Homebrew Website Club communities. Congrats 2 years of HWC; now 6 regular cities in US UK EU! (ttk.me t4eJ2) (twitter.com/_/status/667547225627607040)
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tantek time to update events and wiki pages for two weeks from now!
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tantek.com edited /Events (+0) "move this week's HWC to recent" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next 11-24" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-92) "Edi & SF" (view diff)
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tantek !tell kylewm could you create a POSSE FB event for HWC SF 2015-12-02? https://kylewm.com/2015/12/sf-homebrew-website-club Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm.com edited /events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club (+64) "/* San Francisco */" (view diff)
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kylewm donezo
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 45 minutes ago: could you create a POSSE FB event for HWC SF 2015-12-02? https://kylewm.com/2015/12/sf-homebrew-website-club Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-19/line/1447991761660
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acegiak GWG: heads up, I'm hunting through your code trying to find the stuff that mf2 autopopulates the fields from the url so I can comment it out
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message on 11/16 at 12:14pm: Currently not possible, but I should add that http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-16/line/1447704850386
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 16 hours ago: Thinking about your query and the best way to balance automatic fill-in and manual fill-in. The goal of automatic was to encourage posting by making it a matter of adding a URL and everything else came with it. So, I think maybe the way of not using it needs to be more than a simple button. I might have to break down and learn how to do it with AJAX. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-18/line/1447852581650
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 16 hours ago: Would like to talk it out with you sometime. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-18/line/1447852616698
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GWG acegiak: And here I was changing the interface to try and address the issue.
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acegiak GWG: happy to chat about it now while I'm working on it
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GWG acegiak: The best UI option is to have a button, which when clicked, populates the fields.
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acegiak GWG: that works.
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GWG I don't normally do AJAX, but I'm going to give it a try.
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acegiak I mean, I've never had an issue where I needed the feature because all my use cases I'm able to pass all the data I want through the URL
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acegiak So I'm maybe not the best person to talk about how this would work best because i've only ever noticed it when it's gotten in my way
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GWG The goal for me was to pass the URL and have all the information available.
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GWG acegiak: I have a bunch of improvements I want to make. You may notice I keep dismantling it and rearranging it.
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acegiak GWG: yeah I get the goal, it's just not an itch I've had, so I'm not the best person to comment on it
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acegiak GWG: is it just MF2 parsing you want to do or other stuff as well?
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GWG acegiak: What do you mean by other stuff? I have lots of other stuff on my list.
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GWG I want to add more metadata fields in the Post UI and I think I found a way to make that work better.
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GWG I want to switch to a better template system. I still think the presentation could be better.
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GWG acegiak: Maybe you could help me with that planning.
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acegiak sorry, by other stuff I mean grabbing the page content or title from other kinds of markup
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acegiak I'd love to hear about your more metadata fields ideas
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GWG acegiak: It's already in there. I parse OGP and MF2 now
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acegiak ah ok, neat
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GWG But, I want to cover time-based. When I was at IWC, aaronpk was talking about trip, and I keep thinking I want to build start/end date in, which would get event, trip, and other activities.
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acegiak GWG, I use published date and duration to cover start and end times
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GWG acegiak: How would you handle an upcoming trip then?
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acegiak oh as a future event?
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GWG Yes
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acegiak interesting. I don't do anything with future events at the moment
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GWG Neither do I.
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kevinmarks rhiaro does - you could learn form her
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acegiak GWG: Where is the code I need to disable to stop the autopopulate behaviour?
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acegiak hmm, no ok weird
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acegiak I thought I'd disabled it but it's still being weird
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acegiak GWG: I can't navigate this code :/
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acegiak I've somehow made it worse?
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acegiak Should I open an issue on github? "Make it so that when I enter data in the metadata fields it gets saved rather than erased or replaced?"
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acegiak cause really that default behavior is the one feature I'd like back right now
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acegiak is sleep deprived, has a bird yelling at her and hasn't seen her partner in a week and shouldn't be trying to solve technical issues
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: sleep is always good
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acegiak Yeah. I just wanted to repost a YouTube video and it all went downhill from there
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KartikPrabhu knows that feeling quite well
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acegiak Cause I can't "just leave it and fix it later"
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KartikPrabhu you always can leave and sleep :)
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acegiak Which is then half the reason I end up sleep deprived
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acegiak Yeah
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acegiak Sorry for bitching, folks. Back later
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KartikPrabhu good night!
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Loqi sleep tight!
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petermolnar good morning
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Loqi petermolnar: kylewm left you a message 13 hours, 33 minutes ago: love that site, and its offshots. I literally based the redesign of kylewm.com on http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-19/line/1447958884209
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petermolnar sidenote: I used to have ~10lines of JS for handling the menu on the mobile version (css based, not a separate design), and till yesterday I wasn't aware of this: http://timpietrusky.com/advanced-checkbox-hack
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petermolnar so whoever is using JS just and only for handling menus on a mobile site, check that thing out :)
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: I use that hack at https://kartikprabhu.com/papers but found out from http://www.lottejackson.com/learning/building-a-css-toggle-feature-with-checked-and-flexbox
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petermolnar same thing
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KartikPrabhu yes
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kodfabrik.se edited /Drupal (+288) "Added links to two IndieWeb related modules" (view diff)
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@decadecity @ben_seven POSSE: http://tantek.com/2012/173/t1/posse-core-indieweb-approach (I don't do this as much as I'd like but do IFTTT in the other direction.) (twitter.com/_/status/667678403584217088)
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tantek GWG - did you see my UI suggestion for your auto-form-filling plugin? Use JS to have each input field keep track of whether the user has entered anything into it (or changed it any way, pasted, deleted text) - and if so, then DO NOT auto-fill the field.
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tantek pretty sure that will fix the issue that acegiak is having with it.
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tantek (it's also a common pattern for auto-fill like UIs)
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GWG Tantek, my plan is to use Javascript. I just have to learn Javascript.
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GWG But I actually want to rewrite the form anyway for new fields, so I can do that concurrently
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GWG There is also the question of whether or not I want to store data that I won't display.
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[snarfed] pro tip: you don't actually have to learn a language to write code in it
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[snarfed] common misconception £
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[snarfed] (only half joking!)
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@kylewmahan @decadecity @ben_seven unfortunately Instagram has never had an API for publishing, so most indiewebcamp folks use http://ownyourgram.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/667726037720035328)
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GWG I need to learn enough to get by
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ben_thatmustbeme so long as you have A) google and B) sample code (see A) you are pretty much set
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ben_thatmustbeme and you have a concept of coding concepts that is not language specific too
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ben_thatmustbeme s/a concept/a strong knowledge/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: and you have a strong knowledge of coding concepts that is not language specific too
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I think I have concepts down. Execution not so much
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good morning, tantek
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GWG I'm trying to rewrite my Post UI. Stuck on name again
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GWG I originally called it Response, then Citation, then Citation/In Response To. But it is morphing into more Microformat Properties.
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tantek GWG - it's for bookmarking though right?
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GWG Well, I use the WordPress posting interface for all kinds of posts. So the box would be there regardless.
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tantek GWG makes sense - you're using the "normal" posting interface and just adding to it then. Then just what I said before. When a user enters a URL and you go fetch stuff about it (via mf2 OGP etc.), only use that stuff to pre-fill fields the user hasn't already touched, or at least make sure the field is *empty* before you put anything into it automatically.
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GWG tantek: Right now, I'm redesigning the box concurrently with the idea of fetching.
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tantek cool
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tantek perhaps draw and share a flow chart of the UX you're imagining!
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tantek Now that I'm posting more photos on my own site (thanks to fewer steps to POSSE, cleaner presentation as self-encouraging feedback loop), I'm noticing an interesting phenomenon that I'm not sure what to make of from an indieweb perspective.
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tantek Normally with backfeed, we mix all the likes/reposts/comments in a big list (or facepile) on our own posts
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tantek however sometimes I'm seeing people "like" *multiple* POSSE copies and I'm not sure:
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tantek 1) what does it mean when someone likes the same thing on multiple POSSE copies?
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tantek 2) how should we display that on our own site? since displaying two likes from the same person might look like a "duplicates" bug, how can we do better?
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tantek I like the facepiles for likes that aaronpk does where he stamps the backfeed like faces with little mini silo icons. Perhaps stamping a backfeed face with multiple silo icons (for each silo they like it on) is a possibility?
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@benwerd Do you believe in owning your data? Is your website your online identity? Join us Dec 3 in SF: http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/667766707499347968)
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@benwerd @kid_oyo An #indiewebcamp DC would be cool ... (twitter.com/_/status/667767634629296128)
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Loqi [bridgy] Ben Werdmüller replied '@kid_oyo An #indiewebcamp DC would be cool ...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/667767634629296128)
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Loqi [bridgy] kidOYO replied '..wish I was in SF sometimes. @benwerd' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/kid_OYO/status/667767104729387008)
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voxpelli tantek: tricky thing there is to compile the persons identity graph to be able to consolidate two silo profiles – in every case but the simplest ones you may need to jump more steps than one
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voxpelli (again: I should really get my rel-spider up and running :P )
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tantek voxpelli: simplest solution there is to depend on your own /nicknamescache
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tantek which could be hand-edited to start with, then eventually semi-auto-populated via rel=me spidering
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voxpelli rel-spider is more or less an extreme nicknamescache
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tantek no they're two different components
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tantek a rel-spider can go get the present state
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tantek whereas a nicknamescache has a mix of hand-edited state, and cached state from other sources (like possibly a rel-spider)
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tantek neither depends on the other
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voxpelli yeah, re-read wiki on nicknamecache right now – rel-spider would be a good data source that one can curate into a nicknamecache
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@timmmmyboy @kid_oyo @benwerd We talked about this but didn't rally enough interest at the time. https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/DC (twitter.com/_/status/667768918224801796)
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voxpelli I guess no one here has made a good implementation of a sensible recrawl algorithm? that's more or less the main big item lacking to launch relspider
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tantek ^^^ hey if there's *two* of you local in DC - you can get together and co-organize it!
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tantek voxpelli: many people have
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tantek e.g. glennjones has
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tantek open source even IIRC
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GWG O
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GWG I'd come down to DC
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GWG I have an uncle who would let me stay with him
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tantek GWG - perhaps indicate that in indiewebcamp.com/Planning
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voxpelli tantek: cool, not sure I can find it though – but perhaps I'm just being pedantic – initially it could perhaps be okay to recrawl the entire index at a set interval – every 24-72 hours or something
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tantek or use PuSH to subscribe to people's home pages - like /readers do already!
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tantek no need to recrawl that which is not updated :)
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voxpelli it mainly crawls silos though
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voxpelli but interesting suggestion with PuSH
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Kongaloosh dumb question: I seem to remember someone mentioning that bridgy can show you your errors... does anyone know where that is on the site?
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tantek in the Bridgy doc
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singpolyma Kongaloosh: on your user page on bridgy it shows errors
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Kongaloosh singpolyma++
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Loqi singpolyma has 5 karma
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tantek Kongaloosh: sorry I misread - I thought you meant documentation about the errors that Bridgy can return
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snarfed tantek: https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#How_to_de-duplicate ?
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Kongaloosh tantek: no big deal
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Kongaloosh huh, that's odd... when I post to https://brid.gy/publish/facebook I get no response...
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snarfed Kongaloosh: i expect you got a 405
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snarfed you want to post to /publish/webmention
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snarfed https://brid.gy/about#webmentions
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tantek thanks snarfed!
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Kongaloosh oh-ho!
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Kongaloosh snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 171 karma
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Kongaloosh is a silly sausage
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tantek what is about?
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Loqi "About" is a commonly occurring page or section on a site that provides an introduction, overview, or summary of the site https://indiewebcamp.com/about
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gRegorLove What is rel-spider?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel-spider" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107V
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gRegorLove What is relspider?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "relspider" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/107W
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voxpelli gRegorLove: https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider
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voxpelli relspider is a web crawler that indexes the identity/social graph of profiles
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loqi.me created /relspider (+104) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448046453337 and dfn added by voxpelli" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gRegorLove rel-spider is /relspider
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loqi.me created /rel-spider (+22) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448046445371 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that's a potentially confusing name because rel-* implies rel=* and rel=spider is not really what you're talking about
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gRegorLove Yeah, I thought it was rel=* related
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gRegorLove spider-of-rels :)
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kodfabrik.se edited /relspider (+73) "Added GitHub repository" (view diff)
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voxpelli it's a spider of rels :)
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tantek Spider Of Link A Rels
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gregorlove.com edited /relspider (+31) "see also, linkify title" (view diff)
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voxpelli I can see how the name may be confusing – I use it camel-cased in the project name so it doesn't look as much as an attribute
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gRegorLove The what is prompt isn't working for some reason
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gRegorLove What is relspider?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/relspider
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gRegorLove Has a dfn. Need an explicit p-summary for some reason?
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tantek gRegorLove: likely missing a .
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gRegorLove Aha
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gRegorLove fixes
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gregorlove.com edited /relspider (+1) "." (view diff)
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gRegorLove What is relspider?
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Loqi relspider is a web crawler that indexes the identity/social graph of profiles https://indiewebcamp.com/relspider
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[snarfed] re de duping, in practice, bridgy backfed h-authors usually have both silo profile *and* website u-urls (pulled from the profile). so you can often de dupe on that website without any additional work.
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tantek snarfed, awesome!
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singpolyma Hmm. It seems that for historical reasons I have <span class="entry-title entry-content">blah blah</span> on my tweets. bridgy is picking up the "title" and using that (which is working). When I experiment (locally) with removing the entry-title class, it seems that the parser turns the entire child text of the article element into "displayName" instead of just not having a name and then uses that ins
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singpolyma is that expected behaviour, or a bug in the mf2 parser?
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gRegorLove Have an example link? Those are mf1 class names, so removing might cause issues with the mf2 parser backcompat.
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voxpelli sounds like the implied "name" property? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_for_implied_properties
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singpolyma from that page: " else use the textContent of the .h-x for name "
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singpolyma so sounds like expected behaviour
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singpolyma " Imply properties only on explicit h-x class name root microformat element (no backcompat roots) " -- this quote (also from that page) implies to me that on backcompat it should *not* be implying, but in either case, if implication is normal then granary should *not* be assuming name will ever be non-present
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tantek correct, on backcompat it MUST not be implying
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tantek that was a recently resolved issue - not sure if all the parsers are up to date
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tantek I know that glennjones's parser is
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tantek kylewm: just noticed that https://kylewm.com/2015/12/sf-homebrew-website-club says "UTC-07:00" when I think you mean UTC-08:00
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tantek I think it was DST when you created the indie event, even though the indie event itself is during non-DST
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tantek kylewm: also - since Woodwind has a "reply" button to reply to posts you are reading (and post your reply to your own site), does (should?) it have [★ Interested] [+ Going] buttons for event posts you are reading?
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tantek !tell snarfed,kylewm oh dear - Bridgy Publish RSVP seems to have broken maybe? I didn't change any markup on my end, and tried to BP http://tantek.com/2015/324/t2/homebrew-website-club-mozsf and got: "Error: 'list' object has no attribute 'get'"
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove DST--
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Loqi DST has -1 karma
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GWG I'm still trying to figure out how to do AJAX handling with Wordpress
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kylewm whooa nice catch on the DST thing, how on earth did that happen??
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 41 minutes ago: oh dear - Bridgy Publish RSVP seems to have broken maybe? I didn't change any markup on my end, and tried to BP http://tantek.com/2015/324/t2/homebrew-website-club-mozsf and got: "Error: 'list' object has no attribute 'get'" http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448048970675
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kylewm sorry if this has been discussed before, is there anything that converts an h-feed of events into an iCal or the like?
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tantek h2vx.com supports hCalendar -> iCal
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kylewm sweet, just need to add mf1 properties on my events
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gRegorLove I (barely) started work on upgrading h2vx for mf2 support a while ago. Kind of forgot about it.
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+47) "/* Interests */ Work on upgrading h2vx.com with mf2 support." (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: note https://github.com/microformats/h2vx.com
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tantek feel free to file issues there if you want to keep track in an open / collaborative space (none in github so far), and/or http://microformats.org/wiki/h2vx#issues (currently where all open issues are)
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gRegorLove Yeah, I've got the repo pulled
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tantek !tell aaronpk remember how we used to have the bright orange banner at the top of IndieWebCamp.com when there was an imminent upcoming IndieWebCamp (e.g. "IndieWebCamp 2015: July 11-12 in Portland, Oregon and Brighton, UK!"), could you flip that on for IWC SF?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove Think this was the last time I worked on/talked about it: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-23#t1435103759080
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kylewm tantek: sorry about the bridgy publish bug -- I see the problem and filed an issue for it. we'll fix soon!
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tantek thanks kylewm!
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tantek had me worried it was a FB API change thing
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kylewm having properties that can be single or multi-valued is not my favorite thing
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kevinmarks reads scrollback
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kevinmarks the checkbox hacks look like a complicated version of details/summary
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kevinmarks though I did use one of those for the code in http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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kevinmarks why aren't tabbed panels in html? so many ways to construct them
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@portiLinks IndieWebify.Me - a guide to getting you on the IndieWeb: https://indiewebify.me/ (twitter.com/_/status/667825078256537600)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+123) "moving past site deaths" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (-31) "/* Upcoming */ clean up 'soonest first'" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+318) "/* Upcoming */ +Rdio blog link and quote" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: just to be sure - did you verify Yahoo Pipes no longer works and same with Comcast personal pages?
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gRegorLove Yeah, the Yahoo Pipes URL didn't resolve. I don't know a Comcast homepage URL though. Anyone?
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gRegorLove Yep, looks like it: http://harveybroome.home.comcast.net/
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gRegorLove Same on multiple links (from google results): http://thedevonmemorial.home.comcast.net/
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gRegorLove Heh, looks like some olllld HTML on those 404 pages.
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acegiak OK I'm awake
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acegiak Hello all
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+169) "/* Comcast/Xfinity Personal Web Pages */" (view diff)
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snarfed !tell tantek,singpolyma you should both talk! http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#Plain_text_authoring vs https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/527 :P
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 3 minutes ago: oh dear - Bridgy Publish RSVP seems to have broken maybe? I didn't change any markup on my end, and tried to BP http://tantek.com/2015/324/t2/homebrew-website-club-mozsf and got: "Error: 'list' object has no attribute 'get'" http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448048970675
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@jeffubois I'm late to this party, but with POSSE, @t @kevinmarks and others are onto a possible tonic for what ails the web https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/667843831338041345)
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@kevinmarks @jeffubois have a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention too (twitter.com/_/status/667844016185081856)
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kylewm any brilliant ideas for an app icon for silo.pub? KartikPrabhu?
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@jeffubois @kevinmarks Thanks. (Does Ted Nelson get to say "I told you so?") The longweb discusion at http://indiewebcamp.com/ is also cool. (twitter.com/_/status/667845713632567296)
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu https://thenounproject.com/term/silo/199885/
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KartikPrabhu or combine the silo icon with the arrow from this: https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=input&i=138774
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gRegorLove silo icon + https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=beer&i=16324
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Loqi [bridgy] Jeff Ubois replied '@kevinmarks Thanks. (Does Ted Nelson get to say "I told you so?") The longweb discusion at indiewebcamp.com is also cool.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (https://twitter.com/jeffubois/status/667845713632567296)
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kylewm hehe
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tantek Loqi, messages?
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 40 minutes ago: you should both talk! http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#Plain_text_authoring vs https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/527 :P http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-20/line/1448060002454
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tantek problem is that Twitter has basically "won" use of @-names
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tantek by default
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tantek thus if a user types it, or sees it on TV etc. by default it means Twitter
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tantek evidence: https://indiewebcamp.com/silo-sponsorship#US_Democratic_Candidate_Debate_2015-11-14
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tantek !tell snarfed I with you on this: "my strongest inclination at this point is to keep bridgy publish dumb"
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kevinmarks @jeffubois for Nelson style partial linking, there are fragmentions too http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions (twitter.com/_/status/667853709225959424)
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