#indiewebcamp 2015-12-23

2015-12-23 UTC
M-RyanRix and [shaners] joined the channel
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[shaners] Progress! The build is no longer erroring, now it’s just failing. Huzzah!
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aaronpk woo!
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[shaners] Can anyone who has known issues with the ruby parser file issues on the github repo please? That way we at least know what we’re dealing with.
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KevinMarks can you check it with the test harness?
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aaronpk i think mine are already on there
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[shaners] kevinmarks: what does that mean?
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[shaners] what is “the test harness”?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "“the test harness”" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10AH
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[shaners] I mean, kevinmarks, what do you mean by “the test harness”?
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KevinMarks the test runner thingy
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[shaners] kylewm bear tantek ben_thatmustbeme et al:
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[shaners] do you have any issues with the ruby parsers that aren’t already issues on the github repo?
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[shaners] s/parsers/parser/
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Loqi [shaners] meant to say: do you have any issues with the ruby parser that aren’t already issues on the github repo?
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KevinMarks where is glen jones' text runner?
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GWG Evening\
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aaronpk it's part of the node parser right?
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[shaners] kevinmarks: are you suggesting that the ruby gem run a node test suite? I’m confused.
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aaronpk the test suite is a bunch of files
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kylewm KevinMarks: last time I checked the test runner was down
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[kevinmarks] There's a test suite that is implementation independent
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[kevinmarks] Glenn had a full that called all the existing parsers and compared them
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aaronpk this? https://github.com/microformats/tests
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[kevinmarks] s/full/tool/
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Loqi [kevinmarks] meant to say: Glenn had a tool that called all the existing parsers and compared them
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[kevinmarks] That's the test suite, yes
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aaronpk yes it's a collection of HTML and expected parsed results https://github.com/microformats/tests/tree/master/tests/microformats-v2/h-event
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aaronpk so it should be not that hard to use those files in a ruby test suite
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[shaners] At the time that we built this, we were importing Glenn tests from
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[shaners] <http://microformat2-node.jit.su
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[shaners] which doesn’t exist anymore
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[shaners] Looks like I’ll have to update where all the html / json files from. :shrug:
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ben_thatmustbeme [shaners]: honestly i have been unable to build it
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ben_thatmustbeme last time i tried i got a bunch of errors when trying to install it as a gem
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ben_thatmustbeme install the gem
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ben_thatmustbeme but i haven't looked at it recently
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[shaners] Which ruby version do you have installed?
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[shaners] ruby -v
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[shaners] Nothing would’ve changed since last time you tried. I’m only just now starting to look at it. Mostly doing repo administrivia.
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aaronpk i'm using it just fine on webmention.io, it just has the bugs that are listed so some things don't work quite right
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, but my system has changed
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[shaners] ah. i see.
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ben_thatmustbeme well it installed this time
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[shaners] Well, next time you get time to try installing it, if it fails, dump that into an issue please.
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[shaners] Great!
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[shaners] We’ll get this thing cleaned and on par with the other parsers. Slow and steady.
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[shaners] Is anyone using a `<base>` tag on there site?
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[shaners] Or come across it when parsing other people’s sites?
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tantek Hey GWG, I'm going to keep bugging you to pelase note which dates work better for you here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#New_York_City
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tantek and that's for anyone else that is interested in participating or co-organizing an IndieWebCamp NYC!
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[shaners] !tell jeena Finally merged your PR
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[shaners] <https://github.com/indieweb/microformats2-ruby/pull/33
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek bear, you too especially since you were a big help last time! (and I promise to avoid any / all license arguments/discussions for the duration! :) )
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tantek last time at IWC NYC that is
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GWG tantek: None work better than others.
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tantek GWG - can you note that at least?
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tantek maybe as a list item right below the line starting with "Possible dates:"
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tantek here I'll make a category for you
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+55) "/* New York City */ add a generic Anything in January or February works for me! for general support of any of the dates" (view diff)
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tantek shaners - weren't you in NYC for a bit? or still there?
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tantek GWG, could you email Jeremy Z and ask him about dates also?
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GWG That I can do.
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[shaners] I’m back in LA. I was in NYC in late September after @al3x’s wedding.
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david.shanske.com edited /Planning (+82) "/* New York City */" (view diff)
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[shaners] tantek: take if you didn’t follow along with my photos of my changing geo and return to LA :wink:
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tantek shaners, yeah I haven't found a good reading/following replacement yet for the social silos :/
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tantek I mostly dip in / out semi-randomly
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kylewm shaners: tantek's site has a base tag
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tantek and permalinks too
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tantek where did the base tag question come up?
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kylewm 15 minutes ago or so
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[shaners] tantek: I merged @jeena’s PR #33 that addressed #32.
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[shaners] <https://github.com/indieweb/microformats2-ruby/issues/32
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GWG tantek: The WordPress problem, I'm still confused as to how to approach it.
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tantek GWG, start by naming it, and documenting it, how and why it happened
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tantek because if you don't do that, then you'll likely just repeat the problem with mf2
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tantek we need to document an understanding of the problem before we approach "fixing" it with mf2 etc.
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GWG tantek: I want to submit something they'd put in before WordPress 4.5 if I can.
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KevinMarks a lot of things do rely on their existing markup. eg readability
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gRegorLove wonders who tantek's base belongs to
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tantek GWG, rushing something before understanding it usually results in a broken solution, and you certainly don't want to bake-in a broken solution since it's obviously very hard to change.
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GWG I'm not, I have months
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gRegorLove GWG, are you referring to the WP themes using mf1 class names for CSS issue?
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GWG Not exactly, but yes
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tantek gRegorLove: do you know if that issues is documented anywhere or is it just folklore?
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gRegorLove I don't know
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GWG I can confirm it
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gRegorLove GWG: What was the pushback you got on adding mf2? Is there a URL for it?
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GWG When I first started in this community, I tried to use pfefferle's wordpress-mf2 plugin to add as much markup as possible without customizing the theme.
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GWG gRegorLove: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/30783
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GWG This is where we left off.
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GWG When I activated his plugin, which removed hentry, the theme appearance changed.
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GWG This was the stock theme distributed with WordPress that year, Twenty-Fourteen
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GWG I am proud to say that styling based on hentry no longer exists in Twenty-Sixteen. I pushed for that. And Twenty-Sixteen and _s are both addressing it.
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GWG But the issue comes because hundreds of themes do style on classic microformats. So removing hentry as currently applied is not something they can commit.
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gRegorLove Good. So it sounds like mf-based styling isn't really a concern for getting mf2 into WP core.
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GWG The request was to have it alongside the existing mf1 implementation, which is flawed.
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GWG Wherein lies the issue of when the mf1 and mf2 properties are on different elements.
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tantek that only works if you put the mf2 classes o the same elements
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GWG Thus the problem
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gRegorLove So you'd need to fix their messed up mf1 support at the same time.
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tantek right
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GWG Yes, but my solution was a flag to indicate this, which I think they are against on some level.
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GWG If I break backward compatibility then they'll reject the commit.
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[shaners] GWG++ for being persistent in trying to get mf2 into wp.
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Loqi GWG has 132 karma
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GWG If I keep it, it breaks parsing.
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tantek GWG, how do you prevent future themes from styling based on the mf2 classes and just repeating the problem all over again?
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gRegorLove Interesting thread: https://twitter.com/jmhodges/status/679484058850598912
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@jmhodges I ask my former Twitter colleagues to dig into their userbase's UserAgents & TLS ClientHellos & reconsider this post https://twitter.com/twittereng/status/679458046645407744 (twitter.com/_/status/679484058850598912)
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GWG tantek: You don't.
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gRegorLove Well, I think our main concern is just the official WP-distributed themes, right?
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GWG Also a problem.
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GWG Also, not propogating the problem
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gRegorLove So the twenty* themes that come installed.
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GWG The newest one doesn't use hentry as a styling element, so they could do mf2 support without issue.
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GWG But the more I dig, then you have people commenting that plugins might depend on it too.
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GWG It's not an easy problem
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gRegorLove It's at least possible to keep an eye on the one official theme in case someone tries to add it back.
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gRegorLove Plugins might depend on HTML classes?
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gRegorLove Example?
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tantek GWG, how about a unit test for any core theme stylesheets to make sure they don't depend on mf1 or mf2 classnames?
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tantek gRegorLove: interesting thread indeed
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GWG tantek: Also a good idea. I'm still struggling with unit testing design.
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[shaners] What's the damage on just declaring bankruptcy on mf1 problems in existing themes and core, and instead only pushing in mf2 classes that do The Right Thing?
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tantek GWG, if the latest core theme indeed DOES NOT depend on mf1 classes then add a unit test ASAP to prevent them or mf2 classes from EVER creeping into it!
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[shaners] Seems like fighting two fronts at the same time is expensive.
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tantek shaners, there's no such thing as "declaring bankruptcy" that's the problem
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KartikPrabhu certain CSS naming conventions use "u-stuff" for styling
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KartikPrabhu u = utility
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GWG shaners, backward compatibility is something WordPress takes very seriously. They won't break a large amount of sites without a good reason
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[shaners] Tantek: I just mean splitting this into two efforts. Get mf2 support first then try to clean up mf1.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: my understanding is that it's just one obscure framework
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[shaners] Gwg: I'm not suggesting breaking compatibility. I'm suggesting leaving mf1 alone for now. And just adding the mf2 support.
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KartikPrabhu not a code framework, just a naming convention. Anyway I just wanted to warn that "don't allow mf2 names in classes" might not work as a blanket approach
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: True. I've run into that on my own site using getskeleton. class u-max-full-width for responsive elements.
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GWG Read this comment - https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/32336#comment:4
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tantek KartikPrabhu: can you cite where that "naming convention" exists beyond just that one styling framework?
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KartikPrabhu looking
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[shaners] Gwg: again, I'm not suggesting that hentry get removed.
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gRegorLove I think a mixture of incorect mf1 and correct mf2 in WP core themes is a bad situation.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: if you are asking for a live site then I don't know
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tantek I am - in bundled themes
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gRegorLove GWG: What does WP core use for unit tests, PHPunit?
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KartikPrabhu i don't know a live bundled theme example
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GWG Yes, but we go back to the issue tantek mentioned
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GWG gRegorLove: Correct.
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gRegorLove reads up on https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/testing/automated-testing/
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gRegorLove Womp womp https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/testing/automated-testing/phpunit/#writing-tests "TODO"
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GWG gRegorLove: I know, I read that.
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gRegorLove The PHPunit manual is good last I checked though
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GWG If I felt comfortable with unit tests yet, I would have given snarfed his micropub ones. I still can't wrap my head around the issue.
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gRegorLove I've written a couple for php-mf2. I'm new, so don't really know best practices. A PHP test on a CSS file is odd, but it's doable.
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gRegorLove file_get_contents() and parse for the mf1 names, I guess.
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aaronpk GWG: i've been doing a lot of testing lately, maybe you could look at some of that code for inspiration
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GWG My problem is figuring out how to design tests. I understand the idea of putting in data and seeing if the expected answer comes out, but I break so many things...I'm not sure how I can do that reliably.
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kousu Hey aaronpk: you turned on HTTPS the other day, but unfortunately the defaults are not safe. See https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html
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kousu If you click the connection info in Chrome on https://aaronpk.com you'll see "You are using an obsolete cipher suite". I noticed because when I read about LogJam I went into Firefox and turned off all the old cipher suites, so now sometimes I run into sites I can't get at.
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kousu If you just tell nginx to prefer ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 it will make your site work with paranoid people like me :)
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aaronpk kousu: I haven't changed anything recently, but I used the latest known list of good ciphers when I set that up. It's probably time to audit the list though.
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kousu https://aaronparecki.com/articles/2015/12/07/1/letsencrypt ?
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kousu I did this last week for my jabber server and my webserver and my browser and it was a pain. Hopefully in the next year the defaults will become sane.
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aaronpk that was actually for an unrelated domain, I just used aaronpk.com as the example
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KartikPrabhu kousu: you should write about your letsnecrypt experience
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kousu I should! It was super quick and easy.
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Loqi +1
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aaronpk GWG: I've found testing useful as a way to describe what I want to build before I build it. I guess that's called test-driven-development but whatever.
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aaronpk along the same lines I also like writing the docs for the thing i'm building before I write any code
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GWG aaronpk: I'd like to see your examples.
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aaronpk here's what i've been working on the last couple days:
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/Telegraph/tree/master/tests
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aaronpk a more low-level test is in the mention-client library: https://github.com/aaronpk/mention-client-php/tree/master/tests
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aaronpk GWG: specifcally check out this example: https://github.com/aaronpk/mention-client-php/blob/master/tests/LinkHeaderParserTest.php#L36 I give it some input, run the "discoverWebmentionEndpoint" function, then check that the result is what I expect
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GWG That may help me in writing the micropub ones, if you all can stop changing the standard.
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk well basic creating hasn't changed like ever. but we are definitely still figuring out editing.
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aaronpk and frankly more input from peopel actually building things is great
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GWG Did we settle mp- vs no mp-?
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KartikPrabhu is upgrading to Django 1.9
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KartikPrabhu phew! done. including fixing back-compat issues!
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kylewm GWG: I think mp-syndicate-to is prevailing right now, do you have an opinion/preference?
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GWG kylewm: Not really. Just want something definitive
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@hmans @epirat Nein, erstmal keinen Bock auf Indieweb/Bloggen/etc. (twitter.com/_/status/679634672511528960)
friedcell, mapkyca, nitot_, ttepasse, mlncn, glennjones, j12t, mxuribe, singpolyma, hs0ucy, ZipGun, gRegorLove, gRegorLove_, wolftune, kousu and e-lima joined the channel
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ZipGun hi there
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KevinMarks hi ZipGun
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ZipGun 1st time here
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KevinMarks what's your website?
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ben_thatmustbeme waves to ZipGun
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ZipGun dont have a website... but im looking to meet someone on this channel and learnmore about this
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gRegorLove Welcome, ZipGun
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ZipGun thanks, Hi gRegor
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gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started should be helpful, ZipGun. Let us know if you have any questions.
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ZipGun nice... | now reading |
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gRegorLove Our bot might even help answer your questions from the wiki, e.g.
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gRegorLove What is getting started?
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Loqi Get started on the indieweb by connecting with the indiewebcamp community, getting a personal domain, a place for your content, and setting up your home page & other indieweb essentials https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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gRegorLove What is point of the indieweb?
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Loqi "You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world [wide web]." — Morpheus, The Matrix
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aaronpk tantek: in http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-h-card-parsing I'm assuming "if the page contains one single h-card with a url property matching the page URL" means only do this if there is exactly one h-card on the page?
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tantek aaronpk - yes, and I'm curious how "contains one single h-card" is not quite the same as "if there is exactly one h-card" ?
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tantek I'd like to improve the wording to be clearer, less ambiguous.
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GWG Afternoon
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tantek good day GWG
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aaronpk tantek: the ambiguity is because of the phrase that follows
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tantek aaronpk: ah, it's missing a comma to separate those
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aaronpk "if the page contains one single h-card with a url property matching the page URL" could mean if only one of all the h-cards matches the URL
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tantek what is the WordPress hentry problem?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WordPress hentry problem" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10AJ
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aaronpk could be rewritten as: "if the page contains one single h-card, and the h-card has a url property matching the page URL,"
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tantek GWG ^^^ could you start documenting that? summary definition, cite the URLs you cited yesterday etc.?
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tantek aaronpk: yes
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tantek aaronpk: want to fix it?
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aaronpk sure
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aaronpk done
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GWG The WordPress hentry problem is an improper use of classic microformats that cannot easily be changed due to backward compatibility issues.
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loqi.me created /WordPress_hentry_problem (+162) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-23/line/1450893093007 and dfn added by GWG" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk i'm on a roll with making libraries :)
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aaronpk publishing a php representative h-card library now
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GWG I'll get to it tonight
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GWG aaronpk, is there a list? I need more php mf2 libraries to the use.
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aaronpk there are various lists on some of the individual spec pages and such
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GWG if you wrote it, I have confidence in it.
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GWG What is PHP?
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aaronpk thanks for the vote of confidence
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Loqi PHP is a programming language and web server runtime environment used for many IndieWeb projects https://indiewebcamp.com/PHP
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GWG Could you add it to that page?
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aaronpk you should probably add a qualifier though, "if you wrote it, and are using it on your site..."
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Loqi yea!
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aaronparecki.com edited /PHP (+186) "add representative-h-card-php" (view diff)
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GWG Do you have something for post type discovery based on php-mf2 output?
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aaronpk no i don't think so
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GWG Sh
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GWG Shame
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GWG I w
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GWG I wanted to make the phrase replied to a post on aaronparecki.com more detailed.
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aaronpk okay it's live and tests are passing and package is automatically updated!
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GWG tests++
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Loqi tests has 17 karma
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GWG Well, back to the grind. On tonight's agenda, help section for my plugin.
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Loqi [indienews] New post: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/12/23/1/h-card http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/12/23/1/h-card
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[shaners] Aaronpk: why does the representative method need the url as well as the parsed html?
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[shaners] `Mf2\HCard\representative($parsed, '<http://aaronparecki.com/');`
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tantek shaners - presumably for relative URL resolution
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aaronpk no, first step of the algorithm is "If the page contains an h-card with uid and url properties both matching the page URL..."
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aaronpk it's so the library knows the url of the page the parsed data came from
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@call_user_func [New]indieweb/representative-h-card https://packagist.org/packages/indieweb/representative-h-card (twitter.com/_/status/679740770484535297)
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[shaners] That doesn't come in inside the the parsed html object?
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aaronpk no, where would it be?
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aaronpk the result of the mf2 parser doesn't say anything about the URL it came from
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[shaners] Oh I see
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aaronpk relative URL resolution is handled by the parser before this library gets a hold of it
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tantek makes sense
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aaronpk i'm getting really nervous about hitting the 2016 deadline!
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[shaners] You can do it!
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[shaners] We believe in you!
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[shaners] :star2::star2::star2::star2:
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aaronpk if nothing else, i'll have this great webmention sending tool done
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[shaners] Aaronpk: here's an idea for us to work on post nye:
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tantek shaners - what are your 2016-01-01 ship commitments?
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[shaners] Sub domains for all the mf2 parsers web views.
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[shaners] <http://php.microformats.org|php.microformats.org (pin13)
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[shaners] node.
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[shaners] python.
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[shaners] ruby.
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[shaners] And maybe a unified one like
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[shaners] <http://parser.mf.org|parser.mf.org
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tantek shaners, add to https://indiewebcamp.com/2016-01-01-commitments#Commitments
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[shaners] I'd love to get spec compliance matrix comparing all the parsers on the same test suite. So everyone knows where each tool stands.
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[shaners] Tantek: I'm computerless at the moment. So it's hard to commit to getting anything done.
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[shaners] Other than talking in channel
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tantek that's fair, here's to hoping you get a computer in the new year if not sooner!
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[shaners] Thanks!
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[shaners] I did get mf2.rb moved to gh/iwc. So there's that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek yes! and merged pull requests and worked through issues and stuff.
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[shaners] tantek or aaronpk et al: can you take a look at my pull request and merge if looks good please?
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[shaners] <https://github.com/microformats/tests/pull/46
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[shaners] Optionally additionally, can you add me to the mf org on GH?
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aaronpk I don't have commit access to that repo
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[shaners] !tell glennjones <https://github.com/microformats/tests/pull/46
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell gRegorLove just tried to "Add to homescreen" your site and noticed it comes up with a "g" as the /icon - is that intentional? a "g" instead of your icon as in the logs? https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-23/line/1450888201715
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove Yes, that's my favicon
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gRegorLove I prefer a graphic for my favicon rather than my picture
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gRegorLove Psst. Hey Loqi.
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tantek Loqi now knows not to bother passing on a message when the recipient responds within some number of minutes to the !tell
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Loqi woot!
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gRegorLove Ooh, sweet
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tantek.com edited /icon (+194) "/* Should you use a photo of your face */ add a "No" answer stub to encourage sharing of reasons to use non-face personal site icons" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: could you add your reasoning to the "No" answer here? https://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Should_you_use_a_photo_of_your_face
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tantek I know there isn't unanimity on this point so we might as well capture the diversity of reasons why
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tantek for others to consider as well for themselves
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gregorlove.com edited /icon (+420) "/* Should you use a photo of your face */ my reasoning" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Done. My reasoning is pretty personal, not meant to be prescriptive.
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gRegorLove But maybe it will help someone :)
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gRegorLove What is well known URL?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "well known URL" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10AK
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gRegorLove What is well known?
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Loqi Well-known refers to designating a common URL on domains for data to be easily located https://indiewebcamp.com/well-known
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gRegorLove well known URL is /well-known
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loqi.me created /well_known_URL (+23) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-23/line/1450909335900 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gregorlove.com edited /icon (+16) "/* Should I just use well known URLs */ link well-known" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I merged shane's PR and added him to the mf tests
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tantek thanks gRegorLove !
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tantek !tell gRegorLove I'm now leaning towards the default of continuing with the every two weeks of HWC, since we haven't seen strong opinions one way or another. With 2016-01-13 being the first HWC of 2016.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+202) "/* HWC 2016 */ ok with either date as start. so if no one else says anything, we'll go with 2016-01-13 as the" (view diff)
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[shaners] Kevinmarks thanks!
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