#indiewebcamp 2016-04-09

2016-04-09 UTC
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[dym_cx] shaners: @jeena is right about "the c carving is somehow a bit short", http://i.imgur.com/iiET2wU.jpg
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[shaners] Huh?
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[dym_cx] from https://indiewebcamp.com/logo > Adopt Shane Becker's proposal: "+1 Jeena Paradies the c carving is somehow a bit short, in comperrison with the other two"
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[shaners] what does “short” mean in this context?
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[dym_cx] imo it can go that half of circle deeper
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[shaners] Ok. I’ll look at it later tonight.
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+1316) "/* Machine Tags */" (view diff)
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[shaners] Anyone doing anything with machine tags?
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aaronpk what are machine tags?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "machine tags" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ho
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veganstraightedge.com edited /logo (-72) "/* Adopt {{shaners}}'s proposal */" (view diff)
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[shaners] !tell dym_cx,Jeena: I fixed the logo knockout. re: "the c carving is somehow a bit short, in comperrison with the other two"
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[shaners] Machine tags are tags with three parts (namespace, predicate, value) in the form of namespace:predicate=value, usually added by software to a post, not by humans directly.
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aaronpk let's try that again
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aaronpk what are machine tags?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "machine tags" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hp
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[shaners] Machine tags are tags with three parts (namespace, predicate, value) in the form of namespace:predicate=value, usually added by software to a post, not by humans directly.
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loqi.me created /Machine_tags (+198) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-08/line/1460167095043 and dfn added by [shaners]" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+17) "/* Link to Machine Tags page */" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club (+88) "/* Los Angeles (Santa Monica) */ Chris Aldrich RSVP" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club (+93) "/* Notes */ added note about Camp/LA" (view diff)
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miklb might have jekyll-indieweb ready for next weekend
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aaronpk Wow nobody said anything all night?
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kylewm nope!
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kylewm does anybody know what's up with php-mf2 returning stdClass instead of array for an empty "rels" dictionary?
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kylewm the comment says "This breaks PHP looping over rels, but allows the output to be correctly serialized as JSON."
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GWG Good morning, all
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kylewm ohh, I get it. empty php array encodes to rels: [], where per the spec it should be rels: {}
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GWG petermolnar, I have been working on something that might interest you.
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dorthy hi'
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[kevinmarks] PHP arrays are weird
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aaronpk i wonder if we could use http://php.net/arrayobject instead so that it's still iterable
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GWG Hi, dorthy
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kylewm aaronpk++ that looks like it works to me!
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Loqi aaronpk has 110 karma
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kylewm php > echo json_encode(["rels" => new ArrayObject()]);
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kylewm {"rels":{}}
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kylewm you get an error if you try to use array methods on it though, like
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kylewm php > var_dump( array_keys($arr) );
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kylewm PHP Warning: array_keys() expects parameter 1 to be array, object given in php shell code on line 1
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aaronpk yeah hmm. but it should fix iterating right?
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kylewm yep
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kylewm i commented on the issue, maybe barnaby will weigh in
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aaronpk cool
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myfreeweb aaronpk: hey, i have new micropub feedback :) so, now i think that handling updates with { replace: ..., remove: ... } (multiple actions at the same time) should be required by the spec
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myfreeweb i'm working on my editor https://github.com/myfreeweb/micro-panel -- just realized that i have to track removed properties and send them to the server in the save request
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myfreeweb obviously sending two requests makes no sense, it's one save operation
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aaronpk yeah true!
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GWG I think I may have done a bad thing.
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tantek The #indiewebcamp confessional is open, how may we be of service?
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GWG Do I start that, Forgive Me Founder, I have Sinned?
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GWG I sent a pull request, and it didn't get a response yet, but I keep adding commits to it.
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miklb GitHub purgatory here you come
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myfreeweb how is that bad? that's how PRs are supposed to work
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GWG myfreeweb: Making the PR larger and larger is the way they are supposed to work?
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tantek feedback / adding commits is how PRs typically work
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aaronpk as long as you aren't adding unrelated things that's fine
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GWG It depends how you scope unrelated.
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tantek as in the first PR attempt has some issues, you get feedback, you fix them with additional commits, and then hopefully eventually gets accepted
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GWG I keep adding things related to my scope, but not necessarily the scope I named the PR with.
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GWG I'm concerned I was either too narrow, broad, impatient....
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miklb a wise man once told me "branches are cheap"…
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GWG I branched
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GWG But the newer commits depend on the older commits.
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GWG Back to the possibly impatient thing.
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kylewm I've had that problem before, where I want to make two pull requests, but one depends on the other
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kylewm I don't think there's a very good way to do it?
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GWG Thus I'm adding the commits to the existing Pull Request.
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GWG I can ask for pfefferle's forgiveness later. Maybe the fact I fixed the indents will help
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GWG How would you complete this sentence, "WebMention is an alternative to Pingback or Trackback that..."
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GWG Also updating the README
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tantek GWG s/WebMention/Webmention :)
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GWG tantek: I'll fix that too. The README had it as WebMention
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GWG I don't like the "modern alternative" to pingbacks and trackbacks that is currently in the README.
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GWG Modern doesn't say much
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tantek GWG, I'd suggest something about enabling better presentation, so that comments actually look like comments ;) being simpler (no crufty XML-RPC), and a W3C Working Draft.
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tantek alternative is not right. it's an update/replacement
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tantek with Webmention, you should no longer need the others, especially for receiving
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tantek you can still send Pingbacks for legacy reasons if necessary
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KevinMarks well, GWG does also do better presentation for pingbacks and trackbacks received
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tantek KevinMarks, doubtful, since trackback/pingback senders are unlikely to have the necessary microformats2 for the better presentation
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tantek so I wouldn't make that claim
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tantek certainly not in a readme that seems like an empty promise unless you have actual real world live examples (permalinks) to point to with screenshots
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tantek otherwise I'm *VERY* skeptical of that seemingly theoretical claim
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singpolyma most pingback senders are wordpress, and a large part of wordpress themes have microformats
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KevinMarks it is tricky, as a lot of the better presentation depends on the senders using a note-like rather than article-like model
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singpolyma I do tests with stock wordpress.com blogs against all my receivers routines
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singpolyma s/routines/routinely
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Loqi singpolyma meant to say: I do tests with stock wordpress.com blogs against all my receivers routinely
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tantek singpolyma: do they show anything reasonable e.g. with indiewebify.me's h-entry tester?
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tantek singpolyma do you publish results of your tests anywhere? screenshots?
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singpolyma since most mf2 parsers also support microformats
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KevinMarks so if you use wordpress for terse posts the responses look better than if you quote them in the middle of a long article
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tantek basically I'm asking for proof of a decent looking comment received via Pingback (outside of Pfefferle's blog)
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singpolyma my primary test site is down right now after my recent server move, unfortunately
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KevinMarks medium has similar problems
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tantek singpolyma - yeah without documentation of such evidence, it's an empty claim unfortunately, and likely misleading because of legacy non-note publishing practices
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singpolyma tantek: sure, I know you only believe things you've done yourself. Which I guess is reasonable or whatever
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tantek singpolyma: nope, go document it on the wiki
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tantek me asking for a URL != me done myself
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singpolyma I seriously doubt documentation would convince you of anything useful in this case ;)
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tantek basically, if you're so confident of something, you should be able to show the evidence
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tantek singpolyma: happens all the time with the IndieWebCamp wiki - it's how we work here
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tantek we debate / discuss, people cite real world working URLs, and upload screenshots
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tantek the email-style discussion of making empty claims back & forth is obsolete
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singpolyma not really interested in fighting with you about it
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tantek asking for evidence is not a fight, it's science
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tantek but yes, I'm not interested in empty claims
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singpolyma I wish you'd be less aggressive. I can handle it better, since I've been around so long
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tantek singpolyma: it's an unfortunate adaptation to developers being aggressive with empty claims
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GWG tantek reminds me of my older brother in that regard, so I'm used to a very strong point of view.
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tantek (from mailing lists etc. W3C, once in a while in here too)
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tantek and in general in the space of distributed/federated systems/web with lots of hyped claims
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singpolyma yes, lots of those unfortunately :) NiH very popular, probably always will be
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tantek singpolyma: that being said, I accept your feedback. I'm trying to learn to be better about that by watching folks like snarfed and kylewm, and how they communicate about such things.
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singpolyma tantek: also, sorry, I maybe communicated a bit emotionally. I do respect you and a lot of your work
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tantek (never thought you didn't :) )
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miklb I'm building out social icons for rel=me links, does Facebook have a standardized profile URL like Twitter?
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aaronpk you *can* get a custom facebook url like https://facebook.com/aaronpk but that's not on by default
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miklb so a fully qualified URL might be best rather than user name in a config setting
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aaronpk yeah
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miklb cool. thanks. Also, should all social profiles be rel=me?
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voxpelli miklb: on a profile page then all profiles that represent the person itself should be a rel=me, yes
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miklb voxpelli thanks. I'm doing something like this for the home page (screenshot) http://cdn.miklb.com/Jekyll-IndieWeb_2016-04-08_23-56-49.png
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voxpelli miklb: cool :) just ensure that if those links also exists outside of the home page that no rel-me is added then :)
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miklb voxpelli currently that is only loaded with a conditional that it is home page.
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miklb realizes might need to be also use base.url in that condition
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KevinMarks i thought fb urls were on by default now - you'll be kevinmarks.102 or something
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aaronpk oh maybe
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KevinMarks yep, he exists https://www.facebook.com/kevin.marks.102
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aaronpk but in that case, people may not even know they have a facebook username
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KevinMarks probably hates me
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aaronpk i'm considering adding my profile photo to my note and photo posts
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aaronpk i don't think it would look good to have it on all posts, so the logic for this is going to be a little weird since i don't have explicit types
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KevinMarks actually getting those urls out of the API for fb is apparently very difficult now
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aaronpk but i think https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-04-09-12-09-13.png and https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-04-09-12-06-30.png look reasonable
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miklb voxpelli for a beginning jekyll user, would building in support for webemtion.io be a bad idea?
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voxpelli miklb: perhaps make it optional? and I would of course suggest https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ ;)
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KevinMarks right. it's Stubbornella's media object: http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/06/25/the-media-object-saves-hundreds-of-lines-of-code/
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KevinMarks (that was to aaron)
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aaronpk miklb: i might recommend the herokuapp one (does it have a real name?) since it will display commments client-side with a bit of JS
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miklb voxpelli only reason I wasn't going to use yours is the "9 of 100 accounts" available right now
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voxpelli miklb: that's a soft limit, I can easily raise it
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voxpelli it's just to ensure that I don't a thousand people signing up in an instance because of some Hacker News / Product Hunt adventure or similar
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voxpelli aaronpk: looks good
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miklb aaronpk ah, I have some js from Aaron Gustafason for webmention.io that I just assumed was from webmention.io
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aaronpk oh yeah, that was neat. no that was on his own
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voxpelli aaronpk: real name is on the todo list :)
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miklb but I'm not married to either. I'll use the herokuapp for jekyll-indieweb
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KevinMarks it seems to allow me to add it to lots of sites, voxpelli - is that by design?
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voxpelli KevinMarks: yes, a single account can have an infinite number of sites
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KevinMarks I have (manually) made github hosted sites with it
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KevinMarks eg reddoric.com
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KevinMarks work swell, especially with bridgy
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voxpelli nice!
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voxpelli is so so looking forward to start adding features to it again
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voxpelli two IWC:s in the upcoming month and then a workload slashed in half will hopefully do wonders in that regard :)
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aaronpk voxpelli: are you coming to both?
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voxpelli aaronpk: yes!
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aaronpk awesome!
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GWG I have to see about remote attendance
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aaronpk i'm bringing a webcam and table mic for remote participation
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miklb aaronpk you'll be in Germany too?
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aaronpk yep!
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aaronpk I actually leave on Monday so I'll have a few days to adjust to the timezone ahead of time
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miklb sets alarm for next Saturday morning
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GWG Reading the Vouch and Salmentions protocols
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GWG I'm not sure how to implement Vouch
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aaronpk wat. does iOS safari not support flexbox?
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aaronpk that's disappointing.
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emmahodge.org edited /Planning (+76) "/* New York City 2 */" (view diff)
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emmahodge.org edited /Planning (-2) "/* New York City 2 */" (view diff)
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miklb aaronpk where did you read that?
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KevinMarks it does but you need -webkit-flex etc prefixes
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miklb http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox
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aaronpk it's just not working for me
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KevinMarks hm, it's supposed to not need that post 9.2
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aaronpk look at http://wmrocks.tunnlr.xyz/test/5 in landscape mode (I added a media query to make it wrap when it's skinny in portrait mode)
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aaronpk oops my tunnel isn't back up
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KevinMarks that 504'd, yes
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tantek Welcome Emma!
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GWG Wondering...why a version of this didn't end up in the Webmention specification http://indiewebcamp.com/DDOS#HEAD_request_source_first
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tantek aaronpk: ^^^ ?
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Emma hello
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tantek GWG, you remember Emma from IWC NYC
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aaronpk hm that is probably a good idea to recommend that
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Emma hi guys! i tried to add to the discussion on planning the next IWC in NY
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KevinMarks well, text/* maybe if you support other types
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GWG tantek: No. I didn't get there on Sunday.
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Emma hi GWG!
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tantek but you saw us on Talky right?
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Emma we can meet at the next one, hopefully!
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tantek I feel like I remember seeing you
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GWG tantek: Yes, but I found the video on Sunday a bit harder to see.
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GWG Emma: I was snowed in till Tuesday
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GWG I live in Queens
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GWG KevinMarks: I was thinking the inverse. Blacklist over whitelist
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Emma Its fine, i get it. you didnt want to meet me on Sunday.
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Emma hehehe
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Emma jk
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Emma do you guys know how I can make my comment for the planning of the next one have my name be a hyperlink like the other ones?
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GWG Basically, reject image/video/audio and so on. Known bad types.
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gRegorLove Howdy, indiewebcamp!
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tantek hey gRegorLove !
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tantek do we have a intro / tutorial for making the Template:yourname pages for folks?
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tantek Emma had a question about that
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gRegorLove I'm working on /authorship step 4 and wondering the easiest way to find the parent h-feed for an h-entry
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gRegorLove In PHP, specifically
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gRegorLove But other languages welcome if I can grok them
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gRegorLove tantek: Yeah, I think it's on template:sparkline
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gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:sparkline#How_to_make_a_small_h-card_template
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tantek a-ha! ok good, Emma check that out and definitely speak up if any of it is confusing at all!
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Emma thank you!
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gRegorLove Welcome!
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gRegorLove What is sparkline template?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sparkline template" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hq
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gRegorLove sparkline template is /Template:sparkline
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loqi.me created /sparkline_template (+31) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-09/line/1460235927695 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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GWG Hmmm...did this ever go anywhere? https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7239#section-1
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gRegorLove what is sparkline template?
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Loqi The sparkline template is used to display an inline photo with a u-photo microformat. It is commonly used to create templates for users to sign their name on event RSVPs or other wiki pages https://indiewebcamp.com/sparkline_template
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gRegorLove That should help discovery, tantek ^
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tantek yes, some. I think few think to ask for "sparkline" though
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tantek more like, why does it say "Template:" next to my name when I put it in brackets/braces?
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gRegorLove Could redirect "signature template" or similar there.
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aaronpk i forgot it was called sparkline
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tantek exactly
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gRegorLove It has an explicit p-summary now, so I think any redirect will be picked up by Loqi
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aaronpk tunnel is back up http://wmrocks.tunnlr.xyz/test/5
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Test #5
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aaronpk so what's up with my flexbox?
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aaronpk doesn't work on desktop safari either
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KevinMarks desktop says there's a display:block
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KevinMarks oh wait, that's in the narrow version
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miklb aaronpk what are trying to flexbox? the "one" "two" <ul> ?
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aaronpk no the profile photo
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miklb ah
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aaronpk compare chrome on the left and safari on the right https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-04-09-14-22-53.png
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gRegorLove For /authorship step 4 "otherwise if the h-entry has a parent h-feed with author property, use that" do we have any examples in the wild of that? It sounds like an h-feed that has only one h-entry
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aaronpk gRegorLove: i think that's a common case when someone is publishing an h-feed. can't remember off hand who is tho.
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KevinMarks won't wp do that in effect
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KevinMarks due to back compat
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KevinMarks hatom hentry
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aaronpk gRegorLove: here you go https://jeena.net/notes
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gRegorLove reviews /h-feed
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KevinMarks so safari has made the image box 0 pixels wide
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gRegorLove That's multiple notes in a feed, though. The way I understand step 1, we're starting with a particular h-entry, which would be the note permalink, e.g. https://jeena.net/notes/623
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Loqi [Jeena] Note #623
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gRegorLove I have multiple notes in an h-feed, too
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aaronpk but /authorship does not assume you're starting with a post permalink
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aaronpk it applies if you're looking for the author of a particular post in an h-feed too
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gRegorLove Hmm. I'm confused, I guess
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gRegorLove If I got a webmention from Jeena's note h-feed, am I supposed to parse every h-entry to find the one that mentioned me?
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aaronpk why wouldn't you?
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gRegorLove Cause my code is lazy? Haha. I haven't heard of this use-case before.
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Loqi ahahahaha
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aaronpk then don't do it :P
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KevinMarks OK, weird
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kylewm gRegorLove: authorship of an h-entry in an h-feed was something i needed to implement in Woodwind
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aaronpk i don't know what I would want to display as a comment if I got a webmention from someone's h-feed that included my post
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KevinMarks if I set flex:0 it goes to 0 width but flex:0 1 auto; it does the right thing
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gRegorLove I'm not opposed to adding it if I need to, just not clear on it yet.
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KevinMarks implies some rogue flex-basis is being applied
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gRegorLove kylewm: For h-feeds that didn't have an author attribute in each entry?
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aaronpk the /authorship algorithm is not *only* for post permalinks, so there is some stuff there that won't apply on post permalinks such as if there is no h-feed
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KevinMarks it says computed flex-basis is 0px
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kylewm gRegorLove: yeah, here's the code https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util.py#L233
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aaronpk KevinMarks: I don't understand flexbox enough i guess, but i will change it to flex: 0 1 auto; and cross my fingers :D
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KevinMarks does seem like a safari bug
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KevinMarks flex:0; should imply flex:0 1 auto;
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KevinMarks flex: 0 auto; also works
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KevinMarks hm, I wonder if hober knows about flex-basis oddness like that
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aaronpk woo fixed it on my site too now
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aaronpk KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 206 karma
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KevinMarks I used flex-shrink etc explicitly rather than flex on its own
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snarfed.org edited /photo_comment (+22) "bridgy implemented backfeeding facebook photo comments" (view diff)
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aaronpk whoa really? fancy
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snarfed (bridgy twitter has done them for years, fwiw)
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aaronpk nice. I don't think I handle photo comments at all so I never noticed
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GWG tantek, gRegorLove: By the way, I found out why Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions were deliberately separated.
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gRegorLove What's that?
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gRegorLove s/What/Why/
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Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: Why's that?
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GWG Well, pfefferle told snarfed on November 19, 2013 that he was working on a completely new version that only implemented the webmention spec....as it existed then.
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GWG pfefferle opened this as an issue on October 9, 2013 - https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/4
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GWG acegiak made the initial commit to Semantic Linkbacks on October 24, 2013.
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GWG Even the current version of the specification does not require microformats.
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tantek GWG, "does not require" is not usually a good way to make design decisions
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tantek the current Webmention spec leans heavily on microformats, thus implying if you have "normal" implementation, you should support them
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GWG tantek: I didn't join the community till after that.
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tantek that "does not require" is only there for possibly weird or exotic implementations that are more theoretical (W3C like exceptions) than practical (actual on the web stuff)
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GWG Either way, I don't feel like I'm the one to comment on the matter.
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aaronpk heh, found a weird edge case with webmention
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aaronpk if I update a post and remove a link, I'm supposed to re-send a webmention to that link so that it knows my link is gone
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aaronpk however, the correct response from the webmention endpoint is an error, saying that no link was found on my source URL
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aaronpk is that weird? is that okay?
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aaronpk it means i'm intentionally sending an "invalid" webmention since there is no source URL on my post anymore
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snarfed aaronpk: nah seems like the right idea. "invalid" is maybe semantics. you're intentionally telling the receiver to update its existing wm, keyed by u-uid/url/source url
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snarfed the expected behavior usually being to remove it
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aaronpk yeah, it's just a bit weird that there isn't a well-defined acknowledgement reply
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[kevinmarks] It is odd enough to document
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[kevinmarks] The receiver may want to keep the expunged mention and Mark it as deleted
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aaronpk yeah but that's just an implementation detail since the end result to the public viewer is the same
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snarfed aaronpk: the spec says the receiver should reply with 400/4xx, right? so maybe just document this flow and that expected response in the spec?
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aaronpk i mean it's mostly in there already http://webmention.net/draft/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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aaronpk specifically "(including re-sending a Webmention to a URL that may have been removed from the document)"
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snarfed ok!
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sknebel but in 3.2.3 "Possible sender related errors:[...] source URL does not contain a link to the target URL.", but in this case that is not a sender-side error
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tantek right if its an update
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tantek that's a good point
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aaronpk there we go yeah i knew there was something that needed to be fixed
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tantek it's not an error if you previously received a webmention and the source URL did contain a link to the target URL
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tantek and yes the section on Webmention updates should be explicit about that
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aaronpk so that actually means this is one case where the receiver can mark the webmention request as successful despite the source URL not having the link
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miklb is there a foursquare personal profile page that is commonly linked to?
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aaronpk miklb: take a look at the footer of my website, you'll find all sorts of fun profile URLs there :)
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aaronpk tantek has a good collection too
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KevinMarks what do you mena, commonly?
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KevinMarks https://foursquare.com/kevinmarks
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miklb I'm trying to cover the basis right now for a beginning user. Couldn't find specifics about what a foursquare profile URL is
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miklb s/basis/basics/
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Loqi miklb meant to say: I'm trying to cover the basics right now for a beginning user. Couldn't find specifics about what a foursquare profile URL is
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KevinMarks if you go to foursqure.com and sign in, then click on your face in the corner, thats what you get
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KevinMarks s/squre/square/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: if you go to foursquare.com and sign in, then click on your face in the corner, thats what you get
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miklb ok, thanks KevinMarks
snarfed joined the channel
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aaronpk huh. kbs hasn't been around lately has he?
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aaronpk for some reason can't log in to https://checkmention.appspot.com/
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aaronpk voxpelli: it would be helpful if https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger showed me the actual response from the webmention endpoint instead of just saying there was an error
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aaronpk ah looks like it's an issue already https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger/issues/6
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aaronpk voxpelli++ for webmention-testpinger! gave me a lot of great data to work with for this
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Loqi voxpelli has 67 karma
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aaronpk look at all that junk! http://wmrocks.tunnlr.xyz/test/5
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Test #5
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KevinMarks odd date format
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aaronpk oops
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aaronpk that was a typo. refrehs
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KevinMarks nice
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aaronpk oops wow. I gotta sanitize the author URL field. nice catch.