#indiewebcamp 2016-04-08

2016-04-08 UTC
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@WordPressHelps Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/718224053459423234)
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@ChrisAldrich Phone bricked. New one in hand. First order of business: Making it #indieweb capable! http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/sharing-from-the-indieweb-on-mobile-android-with-apps-and (twitter.com/_/status/718232414821224448)
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@ChrisAldrich Webmentions for Improving Annotation and Preventing Bullying on the Web http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/07/webmentions-for-improving-annotation-and-preventing-bullying-on-the-web/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/718244031529160704)
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mblaney kylewm I've implemented /authorship too, in both dobrado and SimplePie.
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mblaney (even official SimplePie, since I'm now the maintainer)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /p3k_naming_convention (+0) "/* Alphabetize Unused p3k Names */" (view diff)
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[shaners] How is it a surprise to anyone anymore when Google shuts down services?
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[shaners] Should be their tagline.
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kylewm mblaney: cool! could you add them to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Implementation_heuristics please?
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kylewm also we can probably change that section to just "Implementations" now
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@fonte011 Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/718302086077792256)
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unicyclic.com mal edited /authorship (+348) "/* Implementations */" (view diff)
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@TPH_SSD_Hosting Wouldn’t it be great it there was a standardized way to notify other websites when you link to them? It’d be even... https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/718332617347702784)
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acegiak I should open an issue on bridgy about recieving Twitter replies that include images
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 19 hours, 1 minute ago: What is the history of Semantic Linkbacks? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-07/line/1460036233819
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Loqi agreed.
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acegiak !tell gwg semantic linkbacks was a part of ... I think the webmention plugin? But then pfefferle and I decided that the functionality should be split out so I did that because pfefferle was busy. Or at least that's how I remember it
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak But most of the code isn't really mine
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KevinMarks separating the presentation of responses from the mechanism makes sense
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KevinMarks but the name could probably be improved
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dym_cx how webmentions go about sites with dynamically loaded content (ie blank page with pulled json objects)?
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cweiske what is js;dr?
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Loqi js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indiewebcamp.com/js;dr
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cweiske dym_cx, see that
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dym_cx approx 90% of pages on the wiki are "This article is a stub".. but if everyone is a stub – no one is.
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bjoern.stierand.org edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+259) "/* Participants */ added participant Björn Stierand" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu dym_cx: webmention don't "deal" with "dynamically loaded" content because such content is not parseable
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KartikPrabhu dym_cx: also [citation needed] for "approx 90% pages are stub"
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cweiske KartikPrabhu, I have the same feeling
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KartikPrabhu even if they are that is OK. It means someone started documenting something and it is not complete
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dym_cx what are Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:stub
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KartikPrabhu the indieweb wiki is supposed to be community-generated documentation not an encyclopedia
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dym_cx loki cant even :D; http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:stub
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KartikPrabhu if you feel some page is a stub for no reason then improve it
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dym_cx it's a given that a wiki page is something everyone can and should improve if they can, no need to remind about it every time
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dym_cx even long, old, full articles (like http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship ) are "stubs" – there is no indication on what is really a stub if everything is
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voxpelli what is curlable?
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Loqi A curlable URL is one where you can use the curl command line tool to request the URL via http(s), and receive back HTML with visible contents https://indiewebcamp.com/curlable
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voxpelli ^ that's pretty much the approach of all or at least most indieweb-tools – if it's not curlable, then it's not available
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unicyclic.com mal edited /authorship (-10) "remove stub ;-)" (view diff)
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mblaney dym_cx: I agree with you, I don't find the default stub text overly helpful.
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mblaney and as you say it tends to remain in place longer than it should.
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dym_cx web-irc-chat shows wiki login-name as URL and in case of @mblaney – with a space instead of `/`
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mblaney yeah that applies to anyone who logs into the wiki using a path with their domain.
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dym_cx is there an issue tracker for such things?
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mblaney not sure, good idea though.
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dym_cx looking for another stub from 2010 which says "meta"
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dym_cx test
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dym_cx indiewebslack working both ways, but also echoes everying inside slack
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dym.cx edited /Slack (+213) "issue with an echo; rocket.chat" (view diff)
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snarfed hey voxpelli!
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snarfed so i still don't quite understand the PuSH parts of https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/53
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voxpelli snarfed: understandable, I felt my description became very confusing :P
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snarfed earlier in it, kylewm asked if his site (not granary) would ping the hub, and you agreed
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voxpelli snarfed: but wasn't that when a custom hub was added?
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snarfed custom, ie different from the site's rel-hub link?
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voxpelli I think that either Granary does a custom hub through query param that the is pinged by the one that added it, or Granary has a hub of its own and adds it to all PuSH-enabled feeds and pings that hub whenever it receives a notification from the original hub
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voxpelli s/that the/that then/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: I think that either Granary does a custom hub through query param that then is pinged by the one that added it, or Granary has a hub of its own and adds it to all PuSH-enabled feeds and pings that hub whenever it receives a notification from the original hub
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snarfed ok. yeah, i was always thinking the former
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snarfed but i figured the site would also have that hub in its own rel-hub link
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snarfed woudn't it?
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voxpelli I think it can often be two different ones
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voxpelli eg. some tools have a built in hub for their own feeds and then needs to use a third-party hub for any other feeds
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snarfed ok. so, if they're the same, granary could read and use the rel-hub from the site's html or headers, right?
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snarfed we'd only need the hub param if there are multiple?
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voxpelli well, if the query param is the same as the rel-hub, then why read the rel-hub? or am I misunderstanding you?
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snarfed right, that's my question. the first step seems like just propagating the site's rel-hub into the atom, without adding a query param
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voxpelli ah, no, the query param hub would be unique for the Granary feed and not be added to the original site
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snarfed ok.
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snarfed i still don't quite understand the multiple hub use case, or the custom hub for granary use case, but that's ok
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snarfed i'll start with reading the site's own rel-hub, and then if we actually have someone who wants to use a separate hub for their real site, i can add the query param
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snarfed if that makes sense...?
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voxpelli snarfed: the hub needs to know about the feeds its supposed to send notifications for and if the hub is built into the page then it won't know about any third party URL:s
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snarfed i guess i need to read the push spec to fully understand this
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snarfed which is unlikely :P
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snarfed no matter, it's easy to add anyway
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voxpelli I don't find much sense in reuisng the rel-hub – sure, in some cases like when it's a Superfeedr hub it will work nicely, but then one can just as well specify it explicitly
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snarfed ok. is there any harm in it though?
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voxpelli yes it is
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snarfed ie if the site has a rel-hub, and also sends a hub= param, i could put both in the atom...?
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snarfed oh? that'd be bad?
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voxpelli a rel-hub indicates that one can expect a ping to be sent to the hub whenever an update is added to the feed, so if one adds a rel-hub without ensuring that the hub is actually pinged, then one will make most sites only fetch the feed once every 24h or worse
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snarfed but granary can't ensure that your site pings the hub param any more than it can ensure you ping your own rel-hub
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snarfed it's just trusting your site either way, right?
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[aaronpk] Wait what happened to the slack gateway?
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voxpelli snarfed: if one explicitly adds a hub, then one kind of takes on the responsibility of ensuring that the hub is pinged
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snarfed i guess. but the site also explicitly added a rel-hub to its html or headers, right?
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snarfed man i don't understand this
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snarfed i should just stop asking questions and implement the param :P
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Loqi I agree
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[aaronpk] Hello?
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snarfed [aaronpk]: yes hi
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[aaronpk] Oh apparently found another bug with the slack gateway lol... Messages from slack not appearing in the web streaming logs
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voxpelli snarfed: a ping includes the url of the feed that is updated, so one needs to ping a hub with the granary URL specifically for its rel=hub to work
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snarfed voxpelli: ...ok...but it would have to do that for the hub= hub too, right?
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voxpelli snarfed: not sure I get what you mean?
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snarfed voxpelli: i'm not either :P
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snarfed if a site uses a granary feed with hub=, it would have to also send that specific granary feed to a hub in a ping, right?
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voxpelli yes
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snarfed ok. so i guess i still don't see the difference btw hub= and rel-hub
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aaronpk dym_cx: I think you found a very special edge case with the slack/web chat gateway
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snarfed except that some sites want to ping hubs that they don't advertise in their own html/headers?
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aaronpk feels like he should catch up on the PuSH discussion
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aaronpk rel-hub is for a consumer to discover the hub to subscribe to
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voxpelli snarfed: the difference is two: 1. it's explicit so one knows that the hub will be pinged 2. the explicitly specified hub can be expected to handle a third-party URL like Granary, which not all hubs do
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snarfed voxpelli: just to be clear, this isn't proposing that granary ever pings hubs itself, or does anything else to participate in PuSH, right?
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voxpelli snarfed: exactly
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snarfed ok. granary would just take the hub= value and stick it in a rel-hub in the atom. right?
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voxpelli snarfed: yep, and add a rel-self pointing to itself
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snarfed voxpelli: thanks for explaining. i think i get the difference, and it's easy to do. will do.
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snarfed acegiak: bridgy backfeed already renders tweets with images ok, including u-photo. eg https://brid.gy/post/twitter/acegiak/718400075131527172 . got a specific example of something not working?
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Loqi [acegiak] Vurms: spassundspiele:Bandit – fantasy characterconcept by zhangbo - acegiak.net/2016/04/08/spa…
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[aaronpk] trying out a minor tweak to the Slack bridge...
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[aaronpk] oops
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[aaronpk] much better
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aaronparecki.com edited /code-of-conduct (+101) "/* Similar Codes of Conduct */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+84) "/* New York City 2 */ change my pref for 08-06 because considering Carrot Stick conf" (view diff)
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dym_cx aaronpk: there should i file a bug about wiki-login URLs with slashes becoming spacecs? (ie http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Unicyclic.com_mal >> http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-08#t1460112925864 )
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aaronpk this is the repo for the wiki for stuff like that https://github.com/indieweb/wiki
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aaronpk but that in particular is a pretty low-level mediawiki thing
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aaronpk and is likely not possible to fix
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dym_cx what about urls with other "special" symbols like ?, & and https-only sites.. maybe make like a subtitle on wiki user-page which will always show login-url?
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aaronpk you can hide the default title on your user page and add your own
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aaronpk add __NOTITLE__ in the page then just use regular header syntax
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miklb any indieweb WordPress people interested in talking about your uses might be interested in -> https://twitter.com/kadamwhite/status/718422104400609280
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@kadamwhite #wordpress friends, I hear of folks using WP to archive all sorts of personal data e.g. Fitbit etc; I'd like to interview you if that's you! (twitter.com/_/status/718422104400609280)
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dym_cx aaronpk: ok, https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/22
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aaronpk ah cool thanks
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dym_cx also, i still getting slack echo
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aaronpk you managed to find a fun edge case :)
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aaronpk so, you first signed in via the web gateway
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aaronpk then via slack with the same name
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aaronpk so it re-used your connection :D
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dym_cx yay, im special
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aaronpk normally when you talk through slack your IRC nick is wrapped with [] so that the gateway knows not to echo those back
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aaronpk i just fixed it so that shouldn't happen again. Haven't restarted the gateway yet tho
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dym_cx ah, ok, i'll remove this issue from wiki
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snarfed kind of wants to drag the email efail people here into this pro-email debate...only since it's friday! :P https://www.facebook.com/snarfed.org/posts/10102223481816413?comment_id=10102223711541043&reply_comment_id=10102227084920763
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aaronpk snarfed: ohh no you don't
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snarfed we'll see
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aaronpk "Email is alive, and required, for open source communities. Group discussion is needed" :cringe:
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snarfed yup that's the quote i was going to drop but you did it for me!
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aaronpk don't nerdsnipe me into this :P
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snarfed if not you then who?!?
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snarfed waits for the obvious answer
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dym_cx the fact that this discussion is happening on facebook is not at al ironic
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snarfed dym_cx: mostly yes, but to be fair there is https://snarfed.org/2016-04-06_17322
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Email is now basically online snail mail. It’s dying, it just doesn’t know it yet. Time to let it retire gracefully.
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aaronpk snarfed: OKAY FINE
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[shaners] Has anyone implemented email to micropub?
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[shaners] As a way to post to your site with an email app.
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aaronpk https://quill.p3k.io supports that
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[shaners] Like Posterous did initially years ago
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[kevinmarks] Aaron did that, yes
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[kevinmarks] You cc the address and it posts
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aaronpk works with photos too
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[shaners] grawesome
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singpolyma snarfed: should have done webmention to you, but it's not showing on the page. do you have moderation on?
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Loqi singpolyma: kylewm left you a message 1 day, 21 hours ago: do you know that "Microblog" and "Full Activitystream" links at the top right of your site take me to a SubToMe page? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459976855575
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singpolyma kylewm: yes, that's by design
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snarfed singpolyma: i don't think i got it
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snarfed (and no, my wms aren't moderated)
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singpolyma snarfed: hmm.. my wordpress db "pinged" column has https://snarfed.
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singpolyma org/2016-04-06_17322
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singpolyma in it
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snarfed oh btw dym_cx, the obligatory party line is that https://snarfed.org/2016-04-06_17322 is actually better than the FB thread, because it has the twitter thread too
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Email is now basically online snail mail. It’s dying, it just doesn’t know it yet. Time to let it retire gracefully.
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singpolyma I did it manually and it worked, at least, who knows
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snarfed singpolyma: hmm. i'll check logs, but i expect it either didn't get sent or my site 400/500ed it
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snarfed oh? you got a 200?
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singpolyma yes, on my curl
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singpolyma and it's showing up now
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singpolyma on the page
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singpolyma so it worked
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snarfed ah ok so your manual one worked
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snarfed singpolyma: btw yeah it's hard to separate email from smtp etc. if you redefine it as also wave, blog comments, etc, that's a big stretch
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singpolyma like, I think IRC is obviously different from email. But any long-form 1:1 (or even 1:*) message seems basically the same to me
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singpolyma public is different. short/realtime is differen
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snarfed i'm with you that long form messaging has a future. it's just weird to expand the definition of email to include that kind of non-email.
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snarfed generally accepted existing definitions are useful. trying to change them by fiat is a losing game :P
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KartikPrabhu I redefine "generally accepted" to mean "changed by fiat" ;)
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aaronpk there's a name for that style of argument, right? where you change the definition so that your assertion is correct?
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snarfed lol
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snarfed insert NSA joke here
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KartikPrabhu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_correlative
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KartikPrabhu ?
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singpolyma snarfed: not trying to change them. email predates SMTP, and will survive it, that's all I'm saying
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singpolyma changing the protocol has been done before
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singpolyma and hardly seems relevant
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singpolyma if the UX is the same
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aaronpk but the UX of email has changed a lot too
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snarfed singpolyma: ah i see. i definitely didn't mean protocol then, i meant UX. i think the *email UX* is dying, which is a good thing.
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snarfed slow, async, long form comm is great! i just think there are/will be much better UXes for it than the current email UX
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aaronpk maybe "a lot" is a stretch, but we've come a long way from the simple inbox/folder model, with threaded conversations and labeling and instant search for example.
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snarfed true!
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gRegorLove And mic drops
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gRegorLove dym_cx, aaronpk: Mediawiki user pages can be moved. Not sure there's any fix for the forward-slash though, since that means a sub-page in MW.
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aaronpk it looks like the actual problem has to do with the IRC logs autolinking usernames to the wrong thing. I can probably fix that without fiddling with mediawiki.
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gRegorLove What would it use if not the user page title?
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gRegorLove I guess it wouldn't pick up a redirected user page in that case, though.
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aaronpk i think right now it's just using the literal text of the MW username, not actually fetching the page
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aaronpk snarfed: argh you got me into a facebook argument about email :P
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snarfed IT'S FRIDAY FRIDAY FRIDAY
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aaronpk at least i've been posting the replies on my site too
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tantek aaronpk++ for saying what I was thinking ;)
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Loqi aaronpk has 108 karma
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/replies
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snarfed is lazy and counts backfeed as owning his replies
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aaronpk i might too, but these won't be backfed to my site :)
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tantek snarfed absolutely! because you have a copy of them, good enough right?
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snarfed mostly!
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snarfed they're stored differently, so they're not on https://snarfed.org/responses#replies , so not ideal, but FB API turned off commenting, so meh
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Responses
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tantek snarfed, your lightweight trolling has me thinking, perhaps April 1st is a good day to pick such fights
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snarfed aww only if you don't actually care about the subject
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tantek because people don't know if you're joking or not when something is actually conceivable, they have to think *harder* about it in order to respond
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snarfed definitely nice idea in theory, not sure if it's true in practice
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snarfed who knows
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tantek snarfed, worth an experiment :)
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snarfed hard to measure how hard people think about something :P
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KartikPrabhu FB algorithm can
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tantek snarfed, qualitative judgment call from the responses
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snarfed sure!
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gRegorLove https://twitter.com/wordpressdotcom/status/718486222859935747
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@wordpressdotcom HTTPS Everywhere: Encryption for All https://wordpress.com/ https://en.blog.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/https-everywhere-encryption-for-all-wordpress-com-sites/ [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/718486222859935747)
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tantek hey snarfed do you have photo or video comments working yet on your site/blog?
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snarfed tantek: trying to parse. i think so? looking
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Micropub Spec Updates" https://aaronparecki.com/2016/04/08/7/micropub
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tantek snarfed, I mean photo comments on your posts, not comments on your photo posts
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snarfed right
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snarfed i post photo comments/replies myself
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snarfed is that what you mean...?
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tantek and if so, how? via u-photo? just a link to a .jpg in the plain text of the comment (and you auto-embed) ?
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tantek where do you post photo comments?
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aaronpk it's kind of fun when this all comes together. just used Quill's nice editor to post that blog post to my site via micropub, then added tags to it and syndicated it to indienews with the p3k inline micropub editor.
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snarfed all good questions, i have no crisp answers
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snarfed i'll see if i can find some
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tantek looking for an example of photo or video comments on your posts
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snarfed those are actually easier to find. eg https://snarfed.org/2015-12-07_bridgy-stats-update#comment-2596759
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Bridgy stats update
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snarfed hand authored html. (actually markdown, but no matter)
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snarfed (oh and the numbers there are old, we've optimized bridgy's cost down to 1¢ per user per month now :P)
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tantek ah, in your native comment UI
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snarfed yes
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tantek wondering if there's a way to cause that to happen as a comment on your site via webmention
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tantek e-content?
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snarfed i'll find a photo comment i sent to someone else's site
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tantek and that it showed up on their site?!?
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tantek (with photo?)
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snarfed yes at least on kylewm's redwind
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snarfed tantek: i *think* wp's comment sanitizing would allow incoming wms w/photos, but not sure
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-08.html I'll generate it again in an hour and it will be sent out at 2pm.
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aaronparecki.com edited /Events (+63) "/* 2016 */ attempt to fix IWC Summit link" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Events (-1) "/* June */ too many s's" (view diff)
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tantek haha oops on the photo for this week's HWC - it's a u-featured, not a u-photo ;)
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tantek is reviewing https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-08.html
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snarfed tantek: ok came back to this. a couple examples...
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/2014-11-11_kyle-mahan-on-twitter-courtarro-i-was-more-going-for-the-meaningless-comparisons-are-meaningless-angle => http://2015.kylewm.com/2014/11/courtarro-i-was-more-going-for-the-meaningless-comparisons
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/2015-06-01_kyle-mahan-that-thing-where-youre-lecturing-family-members => http://2015.kylewm.com/2015/06/that-thing-where-you-re-lecturing-family-members
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Kyle Mahan on Twitter: “@courtarro I was more going for the “meaningless comparisons are meaningless” angle :)”
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Loqi [Kyle Mahan] http://2015.kylewm.com/static/_mirror/twitter.com/courtarro/resized-26/profile_image.jpgEthan Trewhitt I was more going for the “meaningless comparisons are meaningless” angle :)...
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Kyle Mahan: That thing where you’re lecturing family members
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Loqi [Kyle Mahan] That thing where you’re lecturing family members on Facebook with odious and incorrect opinions… about datetime formatting.
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aaronpk oh that wasn't from that event?
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tantek nope, it's the header image for the event, and thus from a *previous* event https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club
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tantek and just double-checked, it's class="u-featured", not a u-photo
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tantek aaronpk: any photo from HWC PDX? we (I) forgot to take one at HWC SF this week :/
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aaronpk totally forgot in the bustle of getting kicked out of Cup & Bar early
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aaronpk (they closed early for a staff meeting)
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GWG aa
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Loqi GWG: acegiak left you a message 11 hours, 48 minutes ago: semantic linkbacks was a part of ... I think the webmention plugin? But then pfefferle and I decided that the functionality should be split out so I did that because pfefferle was busy. Or at least that's how I remember it http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-08/line/1460104854393
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gregorlove.com edited /srcset (+72) "Flavours subheading => How, IndieWeb Examples, added adactio, Implementations subhead" (view diff)
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GWG aaronpk, I have a question for you about the webmention specifications. Why does it suggest 5s as the timeout?
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-08.html
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aaronpk tantek: looks like my code is actually looking for a u-featured. should it not do that for the newsletter?
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gRegorLove Idea: separate out new User: pages in the newsletter in a section like "New Community Members"
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aaronpk gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 57 karma
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gregorlove.com edited /this-week-in-the-indieweb (+76) "/* Ideas */ New community members" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /responsive_images (+48) "link to srcset" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com deleted /User:Todrobbins "duplicate of [[User:Todrobbins.com]]"
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aaronpk gRegorLove: done! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-08.html
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gRegorLove Whoa
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gRegorLove aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 109 karma
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aaronpk i'm sure there's improvements that can be made, but it's a start :)
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tantek nice work!
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tantek one improvement would be if they have an h-card with a u-photo or logo, show that!
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tantek s/h-card/h-card on their User: page
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Loqi tantek meant to say: one improvement would be if they have an h-card on their User: page with a u-photo or logo, show that!
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aaronpk it will use the p-summary like every other wiki page right now, but h-card would be great
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gRegorLove GWG: 5s timeout is just a reasonable example, I think.
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tantek looks for a User: page with h-card with u-photo or logo as an example
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GWG I am wondering why pfefferle set for 100s.
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gRegorLove Not a hard-and-fast rule
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GWG I am trying to think worst case
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aaronpk GWG: yeah it's just an arbitrary example
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gRegorLove 10s seems plenty long, maybe he typoed
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GWG gRegorLove, WordPress sets pingbacks to 10
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aaronpk hm if wordpress limits to 10s, maybe i should update the example in the webmention spec to that
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tantek limits what to 10s?
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aaronpk the timeout when fetching the source URL
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tantek seems like a reasonable start, and then can you cite something for that 10s?
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tantek GWG - where did you get that "10" #?
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GWG tantek, they use it for pingbacks.
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tantek where is it documented?
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (-9) "remove markup to create a richer h-card" (view diff)
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GWG https://developer.wordpress.org/reference/classes/wp_xmlrpc_server/pingback_ping/#source-code
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GWG They also set maximum size to 150kb vs the suggestion in the specification for 1mb.
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tantek success! https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tantek.com now has an h-card with a u-photo :D
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GWG When I read and try to understand and implement, I obsess about every detail
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GWG So, is a page now vs when Wordpress set their number likely to be larger, or is the specification number conservative?
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+168) "h-card" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek: Another example ^. I'm not seeing u-photo in yours though?
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tantek pin13 found it
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tantek ;)
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gRegorLove That's what I used, though only your h-card snippet.
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tantek.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+6) "slight markup tweak to include photo in h-card" (view diff)
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GWG What is the advantage of using per media type rules in webmention verification?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "advantage of using per media type rules in webmention verification" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hk
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tantek.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+114) "use img instead of Image: for simpler markup" (view diff)
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aaronpk GWG: that's there in case you get a webmention from a page that does not contain HTML, such as a JSON document.
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GWG Yes, but if you do a straight text search on the page, you would get identical results.
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GWG Regardless of page type
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tantek.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+37) "use img instead of Image: for simpler markup, use explicit property class names since markup too complex for implied name, URL, photo" (view diff)
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sknebel GWG: re filesizes: 150kb seems a bit limited to me, e.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/projects is ~110k, a random page from the python docs I just had open is 350k
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aaronpk a text search would falsely match on an HTML page in some cases
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GWG sknebel, that is why I was contemplating it.
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GWG aaronpk, do you have an example of that?
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aaronpk an HTML page doesn't "link" to another URL unless that URL appears in the href attribute of an <a> tag. so if the page just contained the string value of the URL it's not actually linking to it.
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tantek GWG, a URL in HTML comments
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aaronpk what tantek said
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tantek like say, anything that publishes trackback references like (most?) Movable Type installs on the web
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GWG What you both said actually.
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tantek aaronpk: I believe I have expanded your h-card to include your photo but it took much more work than I expected (since you're using a MediaWiki = heading = for your name) https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=User%3AAaronparecki.com&action=historysubmit&diff=26796&oldid=25888
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tantek feel free to revert if that's not your preference
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tantek tried to maintain visual parity
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aaronpk Looks good! I'm going to move the TOC down.
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aaronpk also looks like i need to update a few things on that page ;-)
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tantek go for it. the TOC right now is auto-generated
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tantek so I left it that way (tried experimenting with moving it down, then decided you should decide that presentational aspect)
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tantek so now we have (at least) two examples of user: pages with h-cards with photos. mine has an implied u-photo, and aaronpk's has an explicit u-photo
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dym.cx edited /User:Dym.cx (+129) "added rel=me" (view diff)
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indiewebcamp.com user:dym.cx created /User:Indiewebcamp.com_user:dym.cx (+125) "added rel=me" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh my
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aaronpk indieauth inception
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tantek wat
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indiewebcamp.com user:indiewebcamp.com user:dym.cx created /User:Indiewebcamp.com_user:indiewebcamp.com_user:dym.cx (+125) "we need to go deeper" (view diff)
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aaronpk look at the website on https://twitter.com/dym_cx
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tantek uh, perhaps blacklist indiewebcamp.com as a sign-in for indiewebcamp.com?!?
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aaronpk sorry dym_cx :)
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tantek but kudos for the hackception!
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tantek (very clever!)
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[dym_cx] i saw you putting h-card and stuff on the wiki, so..
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tantek wait wat how can an IRC nick have [ ] in it?!?
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[dym_cx] slack
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tantek since when does the slack bridge show "... joined the chat room" in IRC?
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[dym_cx] https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/messages/indiewebcamp/
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aaronpk since forever
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gRegorLove three examples, tantek
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aaronpk [] are valid IRC nick chars
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tantek was waiting for that correction gRegorLove despite the vague expression "(at least) two" ;)
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gRegorLove hehe
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aaronpk tantek: you even commented on how the [] make the IRC nick look like it's inside a box
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gRegorLove Still don't see a u-photo on http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2FUser%3ATantek.com though
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veganstraightedge.com edited /User:Veganstraightedge.com (+12) "Copied Tantek's User:page h-card style :)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: no I don't remember seeing this: "[dym_cx] joined the chat room." but nevermind, I see it above that too.
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aaronpk it's the same as any IRC user joining the room
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tantek gRegorLove: hmm
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tantek gRegorLove: a-ha! looks like maybe a pin13 / phpmf2 bug! microformatshiv finds the photo! http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/?url=https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2FUser%3ATantek.com&callback=&dateformat=auto
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tantek canaries once again
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gRegorLove reviews http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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veganstraightedge.com edited /User:Veganstraightedge.com (+15) "add p-name to my h-card" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I'll file a php-mf2 issue, unless you already started one tantek
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tantek go for it!
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snarfed tantek: heh, coincidental timing re us talking about photo comments: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/646
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (-1) "Fix kylewm's tag URL in indieweb examples" (view diff)
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[shaners] kylewm: what was the name of your software before you moved to Known?
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[shaners] Was it Red Wind?
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gRegorLove Filed https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/88
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tantek What was Redwind?
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Loqi Red Wind (source code) is Kyle Mahan's IndieWeb-ready blog software written in Python and running on Flask https://indiewebcamp.com/redwind
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tantek snarfed indeed!
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tantek what is a photo comment?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "photo comment" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hm
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tantek what is a photo reply?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "photo reply" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hn
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+103) "/* Kyle Mahan */" (view diff)
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tantek A photo reply is a reply with a photo, thus also a [[photo]] post that is [[in-reply-to]] another post.
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loqi.me created /photo_reply (+128) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-08/line/1460151504348 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek A photo comment is what a [[photo reply]] looks like in the context of the original post that it is in-reply-to.
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loqi.me created /photo_comment (+137) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-08/line/1460151500754 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /photo_comment (+560) "expand with indieweb examples stub, silo examples, bridgy backfeed support feature request" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photo_comment (+45) "/* Twitter */ example" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photo_comment (+121) "indieweb example kylewm 2015" (view diff)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+635) "/* Add me/Dark Matter to tags IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photo_reply (+495) "examples, see also" (view diff)
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tantek shaners when did you add tags support to Dark Matter?
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tantek remembers he added tag support a few months ago
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[shaners] Well, it was in two phases. I had linked tags to aggregation pages. But those pages weren’t listing tagged posts until recently (last week I think). Do you want both dates or just the latter?
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tantek when did you add the u-category markup support to tags?
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tantek.com edited /tags (+531) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add myself, implemented tags on a long flight back from NYC/EWR 2016-01-25" (view diff)
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[shaners] that part was years ago
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[shaners] lemme look through the old iamshane.com repo
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tantek er, u-category or p-category depending on person-tag or plain text tag
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[shaners] i’m not doing person tags yet. just p-category for text tags.
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tantek.com edited /tags (+0) "/* mark up and post a tag reply */ fix person-tag markup, u-category" (view diff)
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tantek yep - that works
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tantek once you've marked them up as tags you've implemented /tags on your posts. linking them to something interesting is additiona (good) work
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tantek e.g. once you implemented tag aggregation pages that listed tagged posts, then you implemented https://indiewebcamp.com/tag_aggregation
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[shaners] gotcha
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tantek hmm - maybe that's overloaded
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gRegorLove I'm still thinking through / not sure how to add more context to a tag. E.g. I'm tagging a lot of things with band names and would like to make it clear they are bands and not something else.
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tantek aggregating tags across sites vs. just across posts on one site
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tantek aaronpk: what do you call your pages that show all posts with a particular tag?
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aaronpk you're not going to like it
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tantek (aggregation tends to imply multiple (remote) sources)
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[shaners] grabs popcorn and 3D glasses
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aaronpk I call it a "tag feed"
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tantek lol
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tantek why not tag stream? :P
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tantek or tag collection? ;)
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[shaners] or tag exhaust :stuck_out_tongue:
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tantek looks at Flickr
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aaronpk collection means something else
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gRegorLove What is collection?
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KartikPrabhu a tag page
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Loqi A collection is a type of post that explicitly lists and/or embeds multiple other posts chosen by the author https://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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tantek Flickr calls them "Recently tagged"
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tantek aaronpk: "tag feed" is better than "tag aggregation"
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tantek KartikPrabhu: "tag page" may ironically not be that bad, especially in comparison to other options
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aaronpk i like "feed" because it implies you can subscribe to it and that the content is reverse time ordered and updates often
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snarfed tantek: the two examples you put in https://indiewebcamp.com/photo_reply#IndieWeb_Examples aren't actually photo replies. i'm guessing you meant my replies to those posts?
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snarfed i'll fix unless you disagree
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aaronpk "tag page" sounds more like it could be curated
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KartikPrabhu then it would tag collection
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tantek KartikPrabhu is right
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tantek snarfed, yeah, I put the wrong long. Go head and fix
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tantek s/long/links
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Loqi tantek meant to say: snarfed, yeah, I put the wrong links. Go head and fix
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tantek.com edited /photo_comment (+83) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ another kylewm 2015 link" (view diff)
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[shaners] tantek: I committed .p-category on 2012-11-18, adding it to tag links that I had since 2010-06-17.
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tantek nice! yeah I expect a lot of features we build apply to backposts like that. if you have the date of deploy, note that explicitly (i.e. for sorting), but definitely also note the date of commit
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[shaners] deploy and commit were the same
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tantek then I typically just say "implemented" for that combination
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[shaners] k
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tantek but yeah, well done
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[shaners] thx
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tantek.com edited /tag_aggregation (+1227) "Overloaded naming naming problem with some brainstorm suggestions in IRC" (view diff)
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aaronpk :sigh: facebook is discontinuing their instagram API libraries now too
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tantek I don't have an idea for how to resolve this now so I just documented current state: https://indiewebcamp.com/tag_aggregation#Overloaded_naming please feel free to iterate on those, add more suggestions etc.
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aaronpk https://github.com/facebookarchive/python-instagram moved to archive
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+799) "Add dates to my various tags implementations" (view diff)
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[shaners] aaronpk: do you know when you added .p-category to your tags?
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aaronpk my new site launched with that, but not sure about before
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aaronpk probably a while ago
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[shaners] !tell kylewm do you know when you added .p-category to your tags? For /tags.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[shaners] Do you have your site/s in some version control?
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[shaners] I mean, do you have your OLD site/s in version control?
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aaronpk yeah
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kylewm [shaners]: May 2014
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Loqi kylewm: [shaners] left you a message 9 minutes ago: do you know when you added .p-category to your tags? For /tags. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-08/line/1460155110165
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[shaners] thanks kylewm. Know the day?
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kylewm 9th
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[shaners] thx
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aaronpk this is the p-category class on the tags that appear on a post permalink?
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[shaners] yes
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aaronpk ugh making me go dig through old terrible code :P
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[shaners] git blame and git history got me to what I was looking for on mine
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[shaners] Don’t I know it. Same for me.
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aaronpk yeah i can't even remember where those come from
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aaronpk there it is. 2014-03-13
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+521) "/* Add my Private Tags support */" (view diff)
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[shaners] thx
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KevinMarks reads scrollback
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[shaners] aaronpk: do you have a public commit for that date?
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[shaners] kylewm: do you have a public commit for yours?
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aaronpk oh ... it was before that
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aaronpk this is the first time it hit github https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core/commit/41edf0137cd5e07e0fe5af89f6c6d7857d7986ba
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aaronpk but that was just me moving from one repo to another
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[shaners] I have some of that too
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kylewm tantek: got kind of an interesting test case for cassis/auto-linking in general auto_link("foo.com/bar,foo.com/baz");
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KevinMarks re webmention timeout - I had to turn up mine past 5s for acegiak's site because her background scripts would cause it to wedge for a bit
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[shaners] kylewm: that’s tough one
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kylewm [shaners]: lol you are being very thorough https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/commit/e5f5b3248489c85742600df1ed37098ba6139f7b
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KevinMarks gRegorLove: using a p-category h-card style tag for Bands seems reasonable
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[shaners] I don’t think autolink can be too clever with a string like that. Bc it’s ambiguous. That could be one URL or two.
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kylewm yeah cassis makes lots of decisions like that though, a URL can end with punctuation too, but it strips that off
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[shaners] I think you either leave it as one URL and leave it on the author to space out their URLs
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aaronpk [shaners]: okay i found it. no public URL for it. but it was 2013-04-21
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[shaners] Opinionated Software™
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: Not sure how to do that if I'm just selecting tags from a list. And does that mean I need to create a page for each band that contains an h-card?
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[shaners] aaronpk: is there a private repo URL? for future you if no one else.
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aaronpk yes
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kylewm interestingly (not surprisingly) it handles foo.com,bar.com the way you'd want
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KevinMarks do the bands not have URLs already?
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veganstraightedge.com edited /tags (+132) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Sure. I would need to find a way to link to their URL as well as my tag stream then.
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gRegorLove Those tags would resemble person-tags at that point, I think.
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KevinMarks yes, a person is one case of an h-card. presumably a band would have an org set
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gRegorLove Hmm
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KevinMarks iirc the name==org heuristic for org cards, not individuals
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gRegorLove So <a href="#" class="p-category h-card"><span class="p-org">Band Name</span></a> ?
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KevinMarks that parses OK http://www.unmung.com/?html=%3Ca+href%3D%22%23%22+class%3D%22p-category+h-card%22%3E%3Cspan+class%3D%22p-org%22%3EBand+Name%3C%2Fspan%3E%3C%2Fa%3E+%3F&pretty=on
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kylewm ohh interesting, there's a case where you want p-name to be implied even when another p- property is specified
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tantek is pleased that shaners indepenently came to same conclusion re: kylewm's comma separated apparent URL question
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KevinMarks though an url of # is a bit odd
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gRegorLove Heh, as is a band called Band Name :)
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tantek this precisely: "leave it as one URL and leave it on the author to space out their URLs"
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KevinMarks as urls can contain commas, though I haven't seen anyone do it sicne webobjects
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tantek "," without a space is likely part of previous URL
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tantek ", " with space is required for English use of comma, and since the outer context is plain text (likely) English, it makes sense to treat it at that outer context instead of part of the URL
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tantek re: p-org implying p-name - really don't want the parser to have to do anything specific with vocabulary it encounters
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KevinMarks well the distinction is <a href="#" class="p-category h-card"><span class="p-name">Paul McCartney</span><span class="p-org">The Beatles</span></a>
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tantek and yes, person-tags are just a subset of possible linked-tags
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gRegorLove Meaning I should use p-name p-org so it's explicit?
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tantek s/linked-tags/object-tags
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and yes, person-tags are just a subset of possible object-tags
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KevinMarks vs <a href="#" class="p-category h-card"><span class="p-name p-org">The Beatles</span></a>
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tantek gRegorLove: correct
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gRegorLove Ok
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kylewm tantek: my point was that gRegorLove wrote his markup expecting name to be implied, even though there was another explicit property ref: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided
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Loqi microformats2-parsing-issues
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KevinMarks which is current behaviour
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tantek kylewm: he wrote it here in IRC only as an example or was that from an actual post?
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tantek (because as an example people take all kinds of shortcuts that they don't "live")
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kylewm he wrote as an example in IRC
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gRegorLove It's not live currently, but that's written as I might actually implement it
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gRegorLove I wasn't really aware of the implied p-* discussion
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tantek gRegorLove: it has come up quite often here as frustration with implied p-name being too long / noisy to be usable (by consuming code)
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gRegorLove Yeah, I'm familiar with some of that discussion, just hadn't read that microformats.org discussion about it before.
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gRegorLove Now I need to figure out how to associate the h-card with a tag so I can just select it from a list and it displays the h-card markup rather than just p-category
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[shaners] kevinmarks: i believe json-api uses commas in urls when requesting a collection of non-sequential resources
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tantek has anyone here ever used hashbang URLs with their site?
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aaronpk :cringe:
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[kevinmarks] with blogger, by accident
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gRegorLove Thankfully no
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tantek KevinMarks: how does one accidentally use hashbang URLs with Blogger?
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[shaners] File hashbang URLs under U for Ugh, I’m glad those are done.
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tantek shaners, just don't go linking to Google Groups "permalinks" then ;)
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KevinMarks they turned them on for everyone when they did the js template thing
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[shaners] Really? Still? Gross.
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tantek are they still "turned on"?
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tantek s/turned on/on
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Loqi tantek meant to say: are they still "on"?
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KevinMarks no, they fixed them to use real urls now
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KevinMarks eg http://www.blog.juliaferraioli.com/2015/08/minecraft-docker-compute-engine.html?view=flipcard
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kylewm is afraid to think too hard about js URL routing works
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