#indiewebcamp 2016-05-08

2016-05-08 UTC
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gRegorLove voxpelli: Is it ok to include the HTML of one of your posts in the php-mf2 language tests?
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gRegorLove URL to original included, of course
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gRegorLove !tell voxpelli Is it ok to include the HTML of one of your posts in the php-mf2 language tests? URL to original included, of course
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /2016/Dusseldorf/bookmarking (+103) "a session photo" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I've got basic html-lang parsing working in php-mf2. Working on the fallback to meta Content-Language now.
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@indiewebcamp RT @iwontsignuphere shiny happy people @indiewebcamp düsseldorf <3 @btconf #indiewebcamp #btconf https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/26266222363/sizes/o/ https://twitter.com/iwontsignuphere/status/729058305650364420/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729108767636393984)
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@IndieWebCampDE RT @iwontsignuphere shiny happy people @indiewebcamp düsseldorf <3 @btconf #indiewebcamp #btconf https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/26266222363/sizes/o/ https://twitter.com/iwontsignuphere/status/729058305650364420/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729109310165389312)
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tantek.com edited /2016/Dusseldorf/comments (+103) "a session photo" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2016/Dusseldorf/homepage (+1472) "archive from Etherpad, with some styling help" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Fallback to meta Content-Language is working now.
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gRegorLove Parsing works as expected on voxpelli's sv article.
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gRegorLove Does not work on Stephanie's here http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2013/09/17/basic-bilingual-1-0-plugin-for-wordpress-blog-in-more-than-one-language/ because lang=fr is specified on a div within .entry-content, not on the same element.
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Loqi [Stephanie Booth] Basic Bilingual 1.0 Plugin for WordPress: Blog in More Than One Language! [en]
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GWG Evening, gRegorLove
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gRegorLove Howdy, GWG
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GWG Working on languages, I see?
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gRegorLove Yep, got it working in php-mf2 for the most part.
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tantek gRegorLove: makes sense for language to be per property
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tantek but yes, harder to deal with "specified on a div within .entry-content"
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tantek and with that
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tantek good night
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Loqi buenas noches
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gRegorLove Loqi, I think you meant guten nacht
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Loqi yeah!
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GWG I'm trying to decide if adopting php-comment is a good idea.
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GWG I think it is, but I haven't heard the opposing viewpoint.
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gRegorLove codereuse++
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Loqi codereuse has 1 karma
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GWG gRegorLove: Is that a for using php-comment over the existing code WordPress users are using?
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tantek.com created /2016/Dusseldorf/syndication (+2907) "archive from Etherpad, with some minor corrections" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: Was today at Dusseldorf fun and intellectually stimulating?
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tantek.com edited /2016/Dusseldorf/travel (+1145) "archive from Etherpad, with some styling help" (view diff)
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tantek very!
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GWG I feel I do better with stimulation in person
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GWG The last two, I had trouble with remote participation
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tantek.com created /2016/Dusseldorf/beatdown (+1226) "archive from IRC, background" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] I think Stephanie does it that way because the summary is often in another language
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@LucaSalvini If you’re up at 6am after less than 4 hrs sleep either you’re really excited for the day or you’re getting old fast. #IndieWebCamp #day2 (twitter.com/_/status/729165102008643585)
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hongpong Anyone want to review? i am trying to convert the microformats style sitewide hCard - i found a Drupal8 port - now it is almost ready but the block is not working. posted here https://www.drupal.org/node/2720199 the module code is here
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hongpong https://github.com/HongPong/microformats/tree/hcard_sitewide I adapted from this https://www.drupal.org/node/2624866 but there must be a mistake in the block config code.
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hongpong Also having some luck tonight with the indieweb libraries, i committed a standalone example code snippet , onto drupal.org/project/microformats
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hongpong also i put a PR for aaronpk on the indieweb php-mentions library to improve the debug messages and better PHPdoc on functions .. i want to have these libraries wrapped with drupal functions that can optionally go into the Watchdog log
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@jjnegi RT @HongPong Building blocks of #indieweb for #Drupal8 starting here: https://www.drupal.org/project/microformats just baby steps yet, but will streamline for all Drupals :O (twitter.com/_/status/729175784938606592)
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@jjnegi RT @HongPong by including #indieweb libraries in #Drupal8 (going to add wrappers with logging) then small modules can implement webmention & others (twitter.com/_/status/729175812809822210)
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@webrocker Hello @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf, Day two. There are things to be done :) https://www.webrocker.de/2016/05/08/indiewebcamp-duesseldorf-day-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/729184257843834880)
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@m_ott @helloanselm Auch STR 🚀 DUS waren nur 2:45 h. Kommst Du noch zum #IndieWebCamp? (twitter.com/_/status/729201145856593925)
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sknebel !tell Zegnat: just for protocol (CC0 requirement), is it okay if I copy some of your IRC notes to the matching session pages in the wiki?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@webgefrickel Second day @indiewebcamp — and it will be awesome! (twitter.com/_/status/729205893473173505)
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@jkphl "Breakfast of champions" — another day of heavy @indiewebcamp'ing ahead! w/ @t @iwontsignuphere @aaronpk https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729207781933330432/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729207781933330432)
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Zegnat !tell sknebel Consider all my IRC notes to be CC0, copy away. I will probably hold of ’til tomorrow on updating the wiki with my notes, so anything you can already do is much appreciated.
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Loqi Zegnat: sknebel left you a message 29 minutes ago: just for protocol (CC0 requirement), is it okay if I copy some of your IRC notes to the matching session pages in the wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-07/line/1462690100444
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 16 karma
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Zegnat is enjoying the calm outside the sipgate offices
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sknebel is still confused by the fact that the high-speed train he is taking today is faster, more comfortable, has wifi... and is *cheaper* than the Regio he took yesterday
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Zegnat Hahahaha
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Loqi awesome
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Zegnat Thalys?
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sknebel yeah
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sknebel annoying as hell to book
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sknebel but nice
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@jkphl Caption contest! #indiewebcamp #btconf https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729211847015018496/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729211847015018496)
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adactio.com edited /2016/Düsseldorf (+0) "/* Schedule */" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /2016/Düsseldorf (+0) "/* Schedule */" (view diff)
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webgefrickel Good morning!
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sknebel morning!
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Zegnat Huh. my IRC bouncer died for a few minutes. Had to read on the online logs.
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Zegnat The Thalys wasn’t worth the effort for me, I will just take the ICE back tomorrow
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sknebel yeah, i'd generally do that as well, but here it allows me to leave 50 min later and still be at sipgate 10.05 or so,
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Zegnat Oh, nice. I don’t think the Thalys was an option for me anyway. I have to be at work in Ede (the Netherlands) again tomorrow morning at 9 ;)
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@jkphl #indiewebcamp day 2 booting up. +@btconf @sipgate https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729217898439426048/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729217898439426048)
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@iwontsignuphere RT @jkphl Caption contest! #indiewebcamp #btconf https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729211847015018496/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729218810423693312)
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@srbanister @jkphl @indiewebcamp @t @iwontsignuphere @aaronpk sweet! (twitter.com/_/status/729218904388702208)
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@webrocker Konterobst #btconf #indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/729219366726848512/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729219366726848512)
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@fredericmarx #food Pastrami sandwiches yesterday, salmon guac bagels today. @sipgate_kitchen killing it again this #indiewebcamp. (twitter.com/_/status/729219419335970816)
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@wltrd Als @sipgate Kunde freue ich mich über die Unterstützung vom #indiewebcamp Düsseldorf. Tolles Essen & Location! https://twitter.com/wltrd/status/729220824876630016/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729220824876630016)
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@jkphl .@adactio kicking off the "Day for getting shit done" @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf #btconf https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729221529611931648/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729221529611931648)
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@sipgateDE RT @wltrd Als @sipgate Kunde freue ich mich über die Unterstützung vom #indiewebcamp Düsseldorf. Tolles Essen & Location! https://twitter.com/wltrd/status/729220824876630016/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729223936563683328)
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@raquelpgodinho RT @iwontsignuphere shiny happy people @indiewebcamp düsseldorf <3 @btconf #indiewebcamp #btconf https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/26266222363/sizes/o/ https://twitter.com/iwontsignuphere/status/729058305650364420/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729226624286232576)
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@sipgateDE Good morning: #indiewebcamp part 2 @sipgateDE! #btconf #sipgate https://twitter.com/sipgateDE/status/729228597945348096/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729228597945348096)
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@m_ott #testing #webmentions: https://matthiasott.com/articles/the-art-of-the-restart (twitter.com/_/status/729230720841977856)
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@m_ott #testing #webmentions https://matthiasott.com/articles (twitter.com/_/status/729230938090160128)
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@btconf Join us for day two of the #IndieWebCamp https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729217898439426048 (twitter.com/_/status/729231445391245312)
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@systemsofplay #testing #webmentions https://matthiasott.com/articles/the-art-of-the-restart (twitter.com/_/status/729231513984839680)
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@sipgateDE RT @iwontsignuphere shiny happy people @indiewebcamp düsseldorf <3 @btconf #indiewebcamp #btconf https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/26266222363/sizes/o/ https://twitter.com/iwontsignuphere/status/729058305650364420/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729233472829702145)
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@eaybot @eay Test einer Webmentions auf die Homepage: http://eay.cc/ (twitter.com/_/status/729235018493612032)
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@eaybot @eay http://eay.cc/2016/webmentions-rocks-test/ Test einer Webmentions auf den Webmention-Test-Post! (twitter.com/_/status/729235274228764672)
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voxpelli !tell gRegorLove You can absolutely include one of my posts in the tests! Eg. http://voxpelli.com/2015/09/oberoende-sociala-webben-2015/ would fit well (it's an indieweb post)
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Loqi voxpelli: gRegorLove left you a message 8 hours, 34 minutes ago: Is it ok to include the HTML of one of your posts in the php-mf2 language tests? URL to original included, of course http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-07/line/1462667562594
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@btconf RT @sipgateDE Good morning: #indiewebcamp part 2 @sipgateDE! #btconf #sipgate https://twitter.com/sipgateDE/status/729228597945348096/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729244608325165056)
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@tskcookieluv32 RT @sipgateDE Good morning: #indiewebcamp part 2 @sipgateDE! #btconf #sipgate https://twitter.com/sipgateDE/status/729228597945348096/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729245328394862593)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+236) "/* Handling */ send a webmention to all responses" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+60) "tombstone, updated default text, dt-deleted" (view diff)
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@eay IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf: Webmentions Test-Posting: http://eay.cc/2016/webmentions-rocks-test/ (twitter.com/_/status/729249237410549760)
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tantek What is updated?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "updated" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10L0
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tantek An updated is a post that has been edited by the author.
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loqi.me created /updated (+80) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08/line/1462701952551 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+14) "/* See Also */ updated" (view diff)
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@IndieWebCampDE Eindrücke vom #IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf — starke Mannschaft, starke Bilder! Dank an @iwontsignuphere https://www.flickr.com/short_urls.gne?photoset=aHskzpxJXf (twitter.com/_/status/729252200891977728)
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@jkphl Awesome pictures of 1.5 days serious @indiewebcamp'ing. So excited to see all the results later today! #btconf https://twitter.com/IndieWebCampDE/status/729252200891977728 (twitter.com/_/status/729252786685227009)
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tantek.com edited /updated (+2218) "draft based on [[deleted]]" (view diff)
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tantek what is updated?
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Loqi An updated is a post that has been edited by the author https://indiewebcamp.com/updated
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Emma i love the gif!!!
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sknebel just passed what looks like all webmention.rocks discovery tests, thanks to ronkyuu!
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sknebel bear++
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Loqi bear has 131 karma
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bear cool!
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bear I've just finished updating kaku project for flask handling of micropub and webmentions
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bear.im edited /updated (+205) "add to examples" (view diff)
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@nebu ...but, this is madness!? This. is. @sipgate ! Froyo self service at #indiewebcamp DUS. Keeping brains from melting. https://twitter.com/nebu/status/729268988300148736/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729268988300148736)
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@sipgate_kitchen RT @fredericmarx #food Pastrami sandwiches yesterday, salmon guac bagels today. @sipgate_kitchen killing it again this #indiewebcamp. (twitter.com/_/status/729273725409988612)
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voxpelli tantek: regarding your "deleted" update – sending webmention to the responses of ones post sounds weird and feels like something that can have unintended consequences for those who don't support deletes
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@sipgateDE RT @fredericmarx #food Pastrami sandwiches yesterday, salmon guac bagels today. @sipgate_kitchen killing it again this #indiewebcamp. (twitter.com/_/status/729273885208752128)
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voxpelli imho Webmention are only to be sent upstream to posts directly mentioned
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voxpelli it would of course be good if responses could easily be notified somehow, but that's not necessarily somehting that webmention is for
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kodfabrik.se edited /deleted (+452) "/* Handling */ Adding feedback inline due to lack of other place to discuss this new feature addition. Feature should perhaps be moved to brainstorm section?" (view diff)
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voxpelli tantek: ^ added feedback
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aaronpk yeah sending webmentions to people who have sent you webmentions has not been explored much yet
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voxpelli if A ping B because A has mentioned B and then B updates his post and pings A because of that, then B will have included the mention from A in his page so A will think that B has mentioned A and then include the comment from B
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voxpelli if A then supports Salmentions A will ping B to let B know that someone has mentioned A :P
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voxpelli and A will anyhow present a mention from A that's originates from the comment presentation within B
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voxpelli which is just wrong
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aaronpk if I receive a webmention from a post that I link to, I can tell that and not show it as a comment
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aaronpk but... if I don't add special handling for that, the "fallback" or "default" behavior would be that I would show it as a comment
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voxpelli ugh, then we get into lots of special cases :/
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voxpelli + nothing says that the post that you mention can't also mention you back
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voxpelli that can be a very valid case
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aaronpk right but i could tell the difference between that based on where the link to my post is
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voxpelli with all those extra checks, question is if another mechanism than webmention might not be more suited for such notifications then
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voxpelli (I think Facebook handles mentions of web pages by just limiting the time it caches the representation of one, that could be acceptable in the case of reply-contexts, not as much need for them to be realtime)
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voxpelli (one could possibly even argue that a reply-context maybe shouldn't update as it should represent the state of the reply at the time one replied to it)
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voxpelli will stop ranting now and do some coding instead :P
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tantek voxpelli: it's not for salmentions, but rather for reply-context updates: https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#CRUD
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tantek this has been documented there for a while: "For this to work, an original post that accepts and displays comments should send webmentions to all the comments permalinks when the original post is updated or deleted. "
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voxpelli tantek: does anyone actually do it?
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voxpelli feels very wrong to me
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emmahodge.org edited /IRC_People (+121) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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voxpelli I would have to do lots of special work in my Webmention endpoint to ensure that such downstream Webmentions doesn't get shown as comments
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EmmaH test
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EmmaH test
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sknebel hi EmmaH
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EmmaH hello!
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sknebel python people: If I want to modify html, do I want to use Beautiful Soup or html5lib directly? (ping bear kylewm)
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Zegnat Just making sure the /IRC People change stuck for Emma :)
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aaronpk it takes a few minutes before it's updated
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Zegnat It worked basically instantly, aaronpk. The web portal just constantly displayed a “connecting to IRC” for EmmaH, which covered the bottom ~2 lines of text
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Zegnat Not sure what was going on there, as her messages did arrive to IRC
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tantek voxpelli: why "lots" of special work? replies already know what they are in-reply-to
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voxpelli tantek: I know very little of the posts people mention
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aaronpk ah cool Zegnat. must have got lucky with the cron job timing
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kodfabrik.se edited /reply-context (+1434) "/* CRUD */ Add feedback about downstream webmentioning" (view diff)
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KevinMarks depends what you're doing, sknebel
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KevinMarks Beautiful Soup is good at grabbing chunks out
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KevinMarks html5lib if you're transforming the whole document
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sknebel KevinMarks: I want to add classes, wrapping divs and stuff to tags in my posts. (e.g. I just put <img src="attachment.jpg"> in the file and transform it to <div class="image_container"><img class="u-photo u-featured" src=...
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KevinMarks you cna do ti with either, it depends which syntax you prefer
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KevinMarks html5lib is more like a tree walking model
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KevinMarks BS is more like dom selection
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sknebel k, thank you, then I'll look at the docs a bit to decide which looks nicer to me
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tantek voxpelli - anyone can curl a webmention endpoint with source and target URLs
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voxpelli tantek: yeah?
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tantek if your reply posts can't handle a webmention of a source of their in-reply-to to the target of the reply, then anyone can cause that to happen
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tantek thus implementers have no choice but to code for this
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tantek is tempted to run some automation to do this
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voxpelli tantek: as I said to aaronpk before, just because I mention you that doesn't mean that you can't mention me
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tantek reply posts MUST in their webmention handler check to see if the "source" is their "in-reply-to" and then either ignore it, or use it as a reply-context update hook
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tantek voxpelli: yes it does
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tantek in fact a third party can do it
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tantek since anyone can do a curl of your webmention endpoint
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tantek with that source and target
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tantek you must be able to handle it
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tantek because you cannot stop it
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@btconf RT @fredericmarx #food Pastrami sandwiches yesterday, salmon guac bagels today. @sipgate_kitchen killing it again this #indiewebcamp. (twitter.com/_/status/729287745324077056)
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tantek your implementation has no choice but to be defensive
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voxpelli tantek: one could handle it through moderation tools as well
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tantek no because you cannot tell the difference
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tantek between someone doing that randomly
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tantek and someone using "Telegram" to send their webmentions for them
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tantek in fact, *I* could use Telegram to send webmentions on behalf of someone else
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tantek moderation tools are irrelevant in this situation
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aaronpk the solution is to check *where* the link to your site appears in the source URL
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aaronpk if the link appears in the content, then it's a normal mention/comment
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KevinMarks or indiewebify.me or mention.tech
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aaronpk if the link appears in the "like-of" property then the source liked your post
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tantek what "the link"? the "source" ?
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aaronpk target
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aaronpk (your url)
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tantek the solution is to check to see if you're already linking to the claimed source
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tantek from your target
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aaronpk if the link appears in a "repost" or "comment" property then that's not a normal comment and you don't need to display it as such
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voxpelli I think it's wrong to check the "like-of" param – rather chekc if the link back to ones post is in the actual h-entry rather than in a comment to that h-entry
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aaronpk voxpelli: the "like-of" example is totally unrelated, but you are probably handling that anyway
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voxpelli but okay, that may be something that one should ideally do but that so far haven't proved to be an issue for those that don't, but actively promoting downstream mentions will make it a more immediate issue
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aaronpk it could also be used as a mechanism to say "hey your comment appears on my site now"
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voxpelli still not convinced that downstream webmentions is the best tool to achieve the aim of keeping reply-contexts up to date
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aaronpk e.g. if you have a manual moderation queue
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aaronpk or if you verify asynchronously
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tantek voxpelli, the larger point is that any reasoning that starts with "it's bad to send webmentions" is flawed, because ANYONE can be sending that webmention behalf of any source / target
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tantek voxpelli: in fact, I am suggesting that webmention.rocks do this AUTOMATICALLY just to see if someone's webmention handler mishandles this
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tantek every webmention receiver has no choice but to handle this
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voxpelli tantek: just because anyone can use a tool doesn't mean that tool is the appropriate one for every problem, so not buying your argument there?
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tantek and we should be explicit about it
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voxpelli I'm mainly questioning whether a mechanism built for _upstream_ notifications is suitable for _downstream_ notifications
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tantek voxpelli: I am saying the reasoning "it is too complex" is not true and irrelevant, because you have to code defensively for it anyway
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tantek no, webmention was built for any peer to peer mention / link
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tantek that's from the definition
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tantek there was no "upstream" or "downstream" from the beginning
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voxpelli tantek: and I have accepted that the complexity argument isn't fully valid: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08/line/1462710978627
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Loqi [voxpelli] but okay, that may be something that one should ideally do but that so far haven't proved to be an issue for those that don't, but actively promoting downstream mentions will make it a more immediate issue...
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tantek the point is since receivers MUST handle this anyway, then it is ok for them to be given the *option* of doing something more than just ignoring
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tantek it already is an immediate issue
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voxpelli but someone should maybe make a chart of every place one is supposed to ping when a post is updated because it's getting to a point where that will be a massive amount of pings
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tantek it's not even a spam problem
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tantek just everything you link to
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tantek why is that a chart?
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voxpelli tantek: "why is that a chart?" – not sure what you mean? a flow chart?
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tantek you said "maybe make a chart"
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tantek not sure what you mean
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[kevinmarks] a list maybe
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voxpelli tantek: something like this but with actual data: https://dr.tt/view?d=j1x9l7y0flyh7tu%2F2016-05-08%20at%2014.41.png%2F
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[kevinmarks] http://svgur.com/s/4v
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Loqi Indie Pleasures
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voxpelli I'm thinking that eg. one of [kevinmarks] more popular posts will likely have to send +20 pings whenever edited if doing all of regular webmentions, Salmentions and downstream webmentions
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aaronpk the simplest rule for sending webmentions is send webmentions for all links that appear on your page
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+715) "/* Feedback */ tl;dr endpoints must handle any webmention; they must detect/defend against anything "buggy" (like create fake comments)" (view diff)
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aaronpk if you follow that rule literally, then you automatically send webmentions for all the comments that appear on your page
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@btconf This – amongst other things – is what you miss at the #IndieWebCamp at @sipgate right now! https://twitter.com/fredericmarx/status/729269561133019136 (twitter.com/_/status/729291282472914944)
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voxpelli aaronpk: that doesn't really scale :/
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[kevinmarks] and any you deleted recently
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[kevinmarks] :wink:
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aaronpk [kevinmarks]: that's not the *simplest* rule ;-)
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aaronpk "scale" seems like a challenge that can be addressed
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[kevinmarks] I should finish my write-up http://www.kevinmarks.com/cthulu.html
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Loqi +1
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[kevinmarks] as I wrote it I felt the need for diagrams
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voxpelli aaronpk: or one could look at how other people have solved and try to mimic their solutions? :)
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[kevinmarks] but I distracted myself with Joy Division themed sparklines
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+8) "/* CRUD */ linky linky" (view diff)
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voxpelli aaronpk: if we should follow the rule literally, then any link on a page should be pinged whenever that page has been updated, which means every response one get should result in a ping to all links and thus all other responses one have gotten...
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tantek when I start displaying webmentions I'm going to send webmentions right back as notifications to the commenters that their comments were displayed :P
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tantek and if those commenters are buggy and display my original post as a comment on their post that will expose the bug in their implementation(s) visibly hopefully motivating them to fix it ASAP to not do that!
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tantek s/on their post/on their reply
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and if those commenters are buggy and display my original post as a comment on their reply that will expose the bug in their implementation(s) visibly hopefully motivating them to fix it ASAP to not do that!
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tantek re: "every response one get should result in a ping to all links and thus all other responses one have gotten" <--- yes that is basically Salmention!
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tantek so that people's sites can give them notifications like "Aaron, Barnaby, and 2 others also commented on a photo."
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tantek ^^^ actual text from a Facebook notification with names changed
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tantek what happens when people comment after you comment
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KevinMarks and if they ping you back likewise that could go on forever
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tantek KevinMarks nonsense. changes do not go on forever automatically.
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voxpelli aaronpk: perhaps http://webmention.net/draft/#webmention-verification should mention something about the need to handle links that may be from embedded mentions or something, to avoid the case pointed out by tantek here
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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KevinMarks I mean if you both have the 'show the salmention webmention as a new comment' bug
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tantek KevinMarks lol
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tantek that only causes more than one change if you fail to handle webmention updates
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voxpelli KevinMarks: I'm very much looking forward to finding IndieWeb sites DoS:ing themselves with circular Salmention pings :)
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voxpelli should maybe follow tantek's lead and build a tool that sends circular Salmentions to other sites
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tantek if you post a new comment for every webmention sent from *one* reply, then you are failing to handle webmention updates
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KevinMarks voxpelli handles updates, I demoed that on wednesday
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tantek otherwise the second time you get a webmention from the same source, you'll go to update it, see that nothing has changed, and stop
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KevinMarks in real time even
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voxpelli tantek: about the "see that nothing has changed" part – that's easier said than done :P
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tantek nah, you have to build that for your own site anyway to detect updates yourself to see if you should *send* an update webmention!
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tantek so once you have done that, you have code to detect if a post has been updated
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voxpelli if someone adds in a CSRF-token or something somewhere, then a page may have changed every time you fetch it
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tantek which you can apply to others' posts in addition to your own
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tantek voxpelli: not "page source changed" but rather, just the parsed h-entry
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tantek "page source changed" is a straw man
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voxpelli really? people do a diff to check whether to send an update webmention? I would assume people just did a ping whenever a post was saved :P
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tantek voxpelli, if your editing is decoupled from your backend (e.g. separate micropub client vs your micropub server) then yes
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voxpelli tantek: one could, by mistake or evil intent, create a parsed h-entry that creates an infinite update loop as well :/ I haven't decided on how pessimistic my change detection should be – one of the major remaining parts of my Salmention implementation
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tantek voxpelli: I don't really understand your upstream vs downstream distinction btw
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tantek because AFAIK both are done "normally"
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tantek an original post sends *downstream* webmentions to e.g. every link mentioned in the content body, person-tags etc.
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tantek a *reply* post sends *upstream* webmention to the original post it is in reply to
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tantek so a *reply* post that itself has links inside its content sends BOTH *upstream* webmention(s) to the links it is in reply to (e.g. multi-reply) AND sends downstream webmentions to the links in its content
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tantek so this statement makes no sense: "webmentions are only sent upstream – never downstream. "
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tantek or as I said, " I don't really understand your upstream vs downstream distinction "
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tantek I'm going to document that as confusion over upstream vs downstream
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voxpelli tantek: how are "mentions" downstream but "replies" upstream? Everything mentioned by the post itself is sent upstream, no? doesn't matter if it has a "reply-to" think or not?
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tantek because threads have a notion of order and thus up/down
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voxpelli "things a post mentions" -> upstream, "things mentioning a post" -> downstream. That's at least how I've been looking at things
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tantek and an original post is at the top, and thus everything it mentions is "downstream"
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tantek responses are the only things that send webmentions "upstream" because they are a response to something that came before
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voxpelli feels wrong to say that it's downstream, I can buy that it maybe isn't upstream, but saying that it's downstream feels wrong to me – those mentions are certainly different from mentions received by the post
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voxpelli and in the context of webmention itself it can't really make the distinction between a reply and a link/mention – either a page mentions another page or a page gets mentioned by another page
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tantek right! and that "can't really make the distinction" is the reason why attempting to distinguish up/downstream is futile
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voxpelli I disagree and still find it a valuable distinction to have between what a page itself mentions and what other pages mentions itself – especially as the latter isn't even necessary to publish on the site
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voxpelli But I can see that you won't change your standpoint on that so lets leave it
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voxpelli On the topic of infinite updates, here's an example that will likely cause an infinite loop: https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/0e7378797e116568b9e926bd95c56415
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+1282) "document Upstream Downstream Confusion" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: so in a real world consideration, if someone merely *updates* an earlier comment, FB does not provide notifications to later comments (whether it should or not is a different question)
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tantek and vice versa
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tantek if someone *updates* a later comment, FB does not provide notifications to earlier comments.
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tantek FB only provides notifications when new comments show up *after* an earlier comment.
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tantek s/comment/response
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Loqi tantek meant to say: FB only provides notifications when new responses show up *after* an earlier response.
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tantek where a response can be a comment, a like, or even a person-tag
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tantek FB also does not send notifications for deletions
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tantek I'm assuming that's a deliberate design choice
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@walterebert Serious Business at #indiewebcamp Düsseldorf https://twitter.com/walterebert/status/729298772883288064/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729298772883288064)
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kodfabrik.se edited /deleted (+635) "/* Upstream Downstream Confusion */" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: I am currently writing code to detect when my own entries change (either updates or deletes) to determine when to send webmentions to everything they link(ed) to before/after
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+275) "/* Upstream Downstream Confusion */ see no distinction. pages to link to pages, any link can be webmentioned" (view diff)
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aaronpk voxpelli: I don't think it's useful to say whether or not you *should* send webmentions to things that linked to you
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aaronpk the point is *anyone* can send a webmention from one of your comments to your post, if your post shows the comment
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@kevinmarks Inspired by @iwontsignuphere and @jkphl, I made #indieweb Joy Division themed sparklines http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html (twitter.com/_/status/729299784553660416)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Inspired by @iwontsignuphere and @jkphl, I made #indieweb Joy Division themed sparklines http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/inspired-by-iwontsignuphere-and-jkphl-i-made-indieweb-joy-division
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aaronpk sure there may be a *better* way to pass that information along, but you still have to handle the case
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voxpelli aaronpk: well, if we say that the mechanism for keeping reply-contexts up to date is to rely on webmentions from the thing that you reply to, then we create an expectation that people will do that
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voxpelli I'm questioning whether that's the right mechanism for keeping reply-contexts up to date
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@jkphl Look at this: #JoyDivision goes #indieweb! #btconf https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/729299784553660416 (twitter.com/_/status/729300538408480768)
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aaronpk voxpelli: i agree that sending 200 webmentions when the 201st webmention comes in is not a good solution. basically using webmention to notify commenters that another comment has been made is not a good solution.
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aaronpk there is likely a better solution to that problem, for exmaple PubSubHubbub places less burden on the publisher
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@IndieWebCampDE Selbst #JoyDivision hätte großen Spaß am @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf! Danke @kevinmarks & @iwontsignuphere! 💕http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html #btconf (twitter.com/_/status/729301166245478400)
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aaronpk there may be other solutions too
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aaronpk but... all that said, you still have to handle receiving that webmention because it might happen anyway
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aaronpk (we just talked through that in person, i think i summarized it accurately)
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voxpelli aaronpk: yes, I used a bad argument to prove my point and derailed the entire discussion, I get that, I'm sorry :)
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KevinMarks you can see the IWC in that graph as activity in the top left
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KevinMarks and Nürnberg too I think
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voxpelli an additional reason as to why it's bad to rely on webmentions to update reply-contexts: it's dependent on the receiver accepting ones mention
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+709) "/* Brainstorming */ label issues, add "Webmentions to responses inefficiency"" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: I tried to capture aaronpk's (in)efficiency point here: https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Webmentions_to_responses_inefficiency - I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at or not but perhaps it covers part of it
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voxpelli tantek: that seems to capture it fairly well
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voxpelli thanks!
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tantek ok cool. I wanted to at least capture it even if we are not encountering the issue(s) yet in practice :)
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tantek Kevinmarks++ that is ridiculously amazing
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Loqi Kevinmarks has 215 karma
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tantek IRC DIVISION
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aaronpk KevinMarks: is each line a day?
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KevinMarks yes, each line is a day in PDT
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aaronpk what timezone determines the start/end day?
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KevinMarks most recent at the top
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "The Joy of Sparks 2016-05-08" http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html
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KevinMarks it's based on your pages, so PDT
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aaronpk omg did you just crawl all the log pages? :P
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KevinMarks it walks back through 90 pages and parses microformats to get post times
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aaronpk nice
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KevinMarks it is a bit slow to parse that many h-entries
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aaronpk grouped by...? minute? hour?
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KevinMarks 15 minute intervals
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aaronpk nice
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KevinMarks as that gives 96 points a day, which was what we converged on before
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aaronpk is 96 the recommendation for the number of x axis points in a sparkline?
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KevinMarks well, everyone seemed to by using 100 points approx
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KevinMarks it seemed to give the right kind of spikiness
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aaronpk sweet
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KevinMarks I actually did plots like that in fortran in the 19080s for my university final year project
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tantek voxpelli: agreed that sending webmentions to responses is a new brainstorm and should be distinguished from what "should" be implemented in current understanding. Making that distinction now.
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voxpelli great!
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aaronpk matthiasott: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/90123640cb26f2f586f8baaf4439cd8f
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tantek kevinmarks, can you hyperlink those 96 points to their places in the logs?
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tantek so that one could e.g. click on a peak to figure out what was happening at that point in time?
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KevinMarks I could yes, though that would make the file a lot bigger
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tantek and incredibly useful
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tantek as archive nav
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KevinMarks socialwg looks very different http://svgur.com/s/5R
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Loqi SocialWG irc activity
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KevinMarks you can see the telcons and F2F
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KevinMarks and the timezone change
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks as Im adjusting to PDT, but the logs are in PST before the switch
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KevinMarks I I was going to make it dynamic/clickable I'd redo it in d3
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KevinMarks or maybe add JS for that
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KevinMarks you could make one per BIM, tantek
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tantek.com edited /updated (+131) "move notifying responses to brainstorming since it is newer than everything else and subject to reply-context CRUD issues" (view diff)
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GWG How long till demos, by the way? On schedule?
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+135) "move notifying responses to brainstorming since it is newer than everything else and subject to reply-context CRUD issues, put up/downstream confusion adjacent to it" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: done to both /updated and /deleted - sending webmentions to responses for both those use-cases are now brainstorms, with links to common issue(s) in reply-contexts
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voxpelli tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 290 karma
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tantek that was a very useful/illuminating back/forth and hopefully we've captured the current ideas and problem sufficiently that when it gets discussed again people can keep the challenges in mind
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Zegnat Starting the demos
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Zegnat aaronpk is kicking us of
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tantek KevinMarks: can you hear us? see us?
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/live
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Zegnat aaronpk has worked on "photo things". He is currently only posting photos that would go to Instagram. Those are "highlights" of the huge amount of all photos he takes.
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GWG I hear nothing. But I see pictures of beverages and people.
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Zegnat Currently the full archive would go to Flickr, but Flickr is still a silo
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Zegnat Still nothing GWG?
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KevinMarks I can see a screen streame dbut no sound
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@jkphl Aaaaaaand: Demo time @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf! \o/ #btconf https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729313122750697476/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729313122750697476)
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Zegnat aaronpk is checking sound
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GWG Yes. No audio, but some sort of round pie with fruit?
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Zegnat A nutella pizza, actually
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Zegnat Permalink photo post pizza: https://aaronparecki.com/2016/05/07/24/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] They liked us so much they brought out a free Nutella pizza for the table! #indiewebcamp
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: It's Demo time at Indiewebcamp Düsseldorf - live stream at https://www.youtube.com/ chat at https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08 (twitter.com/_/status/729313433091346432)
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GWG I was trying to be general as I wasn't sure if it was chocolate or nutella.
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Zegnat There should be sound in a second
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Zegnat aaronpk did not have collections/albums of photos, and he did not want to have separate photo posts for every single one by it self.
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Zegnat He is using Flickr to manage collections of photos
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GWG I have to turn the volume way up though. But I hear it now
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@teckgeer RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: It's Demo time at Indiewebcamp Düsseldorf - live stream at https://www.youtube.com/ chat at https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08 (twitter.com/_/status/729313889796673536)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I have album posts now on my own site like flickr, which will collect comments (twitter.com/_/status/729313906053636096)
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Zegnat Album should be like any other post, it should be able to get comments et al. The next question was how to give every photo its own permalink but still make it part of an album
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Zegnat The solution would be a small carousel at the bottom
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: so each photo that is in an album has links to the rest of the album (twitter.com/_/status/729314067328851968)
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Zegnat Inspiration is being taken from Flickrs display, where the tile grid always goes to full-width of the screen
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Zegnat The secret being that rows do not need to have the same height
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I started working on the tiled layout of photos for the album - on flickr every row is full width (twitter.com/_/status/729314285680132097)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: the secret is that the rows aren't all the same height, os they can make it fit that way (twitter.com/_/status/729314432862412801)
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sknebel aaronpk: https://github.com/flickr/justified-layout
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Zegnat jkphl.is things the flickr way is open-sourced, but it has not been found yet by aaronpk. Instead he was working on its own system
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Zegnat (thanks sknebel)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: people who build this kind of thing don't tend to make it work without javascript (twitter.com/_/status/729314668183838720)
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Zegnat aaronpk worked from the fallback system forward. So first just display all the images in HTML, and then put his new library in.
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KevinMarks there is masonry.js which is close to this
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Zegnat "Google image search tries to do it, but does it wrong" - tantek
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I'm not going to use flexbox for this - I'm working on laying it out in JS (twitter.com/_/status/729315076025393152)
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Zegnat aaronpk is pretty sure no existing library handles progressive enhancement as good as his will
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KevinMarks I am
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KevinMarks my notes are coming into IRC too
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Zegnat Next up: adactio
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the flickr library was open sourced a month ago, and the inputs are all the aspect ratios of the images (twitter.com/_/status/729315430364368896)
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tantek code from Flickr http://flickr.github.io/justified-layout/
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tantek looks like Flickr library solution requires knowledge of all image height/width aspect ratios upfront
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Zegnat adactio has been working on plumbing, just fixing, and then never stopped fixing
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: I didn't end up doing what I said I was going to do, but I started fixing plumbing and never stopped (twitter.com/_/status/729315580885372928)
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tantek thus does not handle incremental loading of image
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tantek s
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Zegnat This is the actual release post from Flickr: http://code.flickr.net/2016/04/05/our-justified-layout-goes-open-source/
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Zegnat (thanks again to jkphl.is sitting next to me)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: my webmention handling wasn't very good, as I built it on a 15 year old db table for comments (twitter.com/_/status/729315695725416454)
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webrocker webrocker
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GWG We had things called blogs in the day?
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Zegnat "Stuff that was messed up is now less messed up" - adactio
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Zegnat Likes have been fixed on adactio.com
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: so now I have a custom table that stores responses, likes and so on better (twitter.com/_/status/729315876889989120)
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Zegnat And the error that showed with aaronpk's reaction at the demo yesterday morning has also been fixed
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: @aaronpk posted a beer yesterday, which now is parsed correctly (twitter.com/_/status/729316005772562433)
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Zegnat adactio is now trying to redo the photo posting demo
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: I've been using a deprecated twitter call for posting images - so I updated (twitter.com/_/status/729316129856995328)
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loqi.me created /CDURU (+181) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: so the demo that didn't work yesterday now does - it POSSEs to twitter and flickr (twitter.com/_/status/729316298421719040)
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Zegnat Photo posting works now: https://adactio.com/notes/10618 and it is POSSEd using the latest API version for Twitter (away from deprecated)
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GWG As long as it lays the groundwork for the future, improving things is still good.
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Demo time!
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GWG applauds
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KevinMarks who's up?
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sknebel vandrijevik
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Zegnat vandrijevik now supports events in his travel log
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @vandrijevik: I did some cleanup and added things to my travel plans to show events at the top (twitter.com/_/status/729316761045106689)
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loqi.me created /undeleted (+193) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Zegnat His "stays" have been updated to be parsable h-events
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @vandrijevik: and I made the stays an h-event not an h-card so it had duration too (twitter.com/_/status/729316857283371008)
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Zegnat Another hack day spend on refactoring and cleaning on his side: the HTML markup is now more readable and less nested
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @vandrijevik: and I cleaned up the markup (twitter.com/_/status/729317060325445632)
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Zegnat Reasons for keeping flights as one event rather than departure/arrival: keep duration neat
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@cybind Webmention https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-webmention-20160112/ (twitter.com/_/status/729317225849626625)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: It's OK to have more than one location for an event - that can be true [ie I'm not in Duusseldorf] (twitter.com/_/status/729317249455022080)
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@eaybot IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf: Webmentions Test-Posting https://eay.cc/2016/webmentions-rocks-test/ (twitter.com/_/status/729317254744162305)
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GWG applauds
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Zegnat Next up fmarx.com
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tantek.com edited /undeleted (+56) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek what is metalsmith
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "metalsmith" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10L3
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Zegnat He wanted to move away from having everything on medium only
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Zegnat His medium articles now link to "canonical" versions on his own domain
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Zegnat Where the site is a staticly generated website through metalsmith.io
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webrocker http://www.metalsmith.io/
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sknebel Metalsmith is [http://www.metalsmith.io/], a static site generator written in [[JavaScript]]
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loqi.me created /Metalsmith (+119) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08/line/1462717805033 and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @fredericmarx: my site https://fmarx.com/ uses a static site generator, metalsmith.io (twitter.com/_/status/729317794072776705)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @fredericmarx: medium has a feature where it works out what a link on a line at its own means (twitter.com/_/status/729317907503587328)
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Zegnat fmarx.com was worried about embedding (which Medium handles really well)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @vandrijevik: I did some cleanup and added things to my travel plans to show events at the top (twitter.com/_/status/729318022918320128)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @vandrijevik: and I made the stays an h-event not an h-card so it had duration too (twitter.com/_/status/729318023845253120)
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@handsonl1fe RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @vandrijevik: and I made the stays an h-event not an h-card so it had duration too (twitter.com/_/status/729318025300684802)
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Zegnat He is running javascript that finds links where href === text content it will replace it with an embed
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @fredericmarx: for vimeo I don't want to put iframes in my markdown, so I expand links that are embedded (twitter.com/_/status/729318132477657088)
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Zegnat This way he did not need to add embed code into his plain text markdown files
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @fredericmarx: if href== text content I can auto-add richer links (twitter.com/_/status/729318257358831616)
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Zegnat And, as a quick aside after aplaus, webmentions are there too
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Zegnat Next up: EmmaH
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tantek next up EmmaHodge.org
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @fredericmarx: and I have webmentions working too (twitter.com/_/status/729318383506710529)
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Zegnat EmmaH wanted to learn how CSS could be used to display things differently
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @EmmaGHodge: I had 3 objectives today - organising homepage, layout and fonts, and photos (twitter.com/_/status/729318525647523841)
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Zegnat As well as how photos can be uploaded
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Zegnat The example page: http://emmahodge.org/dusseldorf.html
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@energyovertime RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: It's Demo time at Indiewebcamp Düsseldorf - live stream at https://www.youtube.com/ chat at https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08 (twitter.com/_/status/729318651573084162)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @EmmaGHodge: I have new fonts and played around with layouts, and got photos upload working (twitter.com/_/status/729318709139939328)
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Zegnat EmmaH is now working with a new flow, instead of editing pages straight inside of GitHub repository she can now use GitHub Desktop and Atom to work locally
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @EmmaGHodge: I downloaded the Mac github client and atom editor so that I have good tools for my site (twitter.com/_/status/729318831076696065)
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Zegnat what is atom?
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Loqi Atom is an XML format for publishing feeds that was developed as a more formally specified alternative to RSS https://indiewebcamp.com/Atom
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Zegnat Aah … hmm
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Zegnat what is atom.io?
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tantek overloadedterms--
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "atom.io" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10L4
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Loqi overloadedterms has -1 karma
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Zegnat Atom.io is a code editor from GitHub https://atom.io
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@faulancr Vom Hauptbahnhof fährt der 707 Bus Schienenersatzverkehr direkt zu @sipgateDE Wupperstrasse. #btconf #indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/netzvagabund/status/729299869945466881 (twitter.com/_/status/729318993543204864)
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loqi.me created /Atom.io (+79) "prompted by Zegnat https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-08/line/1462718149527 and dfn added by Zegnat" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Zegnat Next up https://matthiasott.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @EmmaGHodge: Andreas describes himself as a notorious team player and I endorse that description (twitter.com/_/status/729319076628078593)
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Zegnat He continued work on the webmention plugin for Craft CMS
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Zegnat Webmentions are now sucessfully received
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Zegnat As well as likes and reposts
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Zegnat Appearance tweaks are still bein g considered
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @m_ott: I am now receiving webmention successfully at https://matthiasott.com/articles (twitter.com/_/status/729319368257998848)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @m_ott: and I have likes and repost parsing working too (twitter.com/_/status/729319475267260416)
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Zegnat Back-end demo
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Zegnat You will get some basic options within Craft CMS to configure the webmention endpoint
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Zegnat There is also a nice POST form to manually add a mention
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @m_ott: I have a webmention sending UI as well (twitter.com/_/status/729319680423297024)
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Zegnat Available on https://matthiasott.com/webmention
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Zegnat "human-friendly webmention endpoint" - adactio
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Zegnat Back-end is also showing a switch for whether you want to receive brid.gy webmentions or not
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Zegnat The next step would be putting it up on GitHub for the world.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @m_ott: I have a human friendly webmention endpoint here: https://matthiasott.com/webmention (twitter.com/_/status/729320053024260097)
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Zegnat But it still needs validation of the webmention before it is really done for wide use
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Zegnat Next up: Keith
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Zegnat http://keithandrews.com
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Zegnat Showing is something he finished yesterday
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Zegnat HTML Slidy does not work well with mobile, so they have been working on responsive slidy (rSlidy)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+629) "s/GONE/Gone. delete any POSSE copies as recommended practice (in process of implementing!), note" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Keith Andrews: I have an html slideshow linked from my talks using rSlidy (twitter.com/_/status/729320843428298752)
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Zegnat Demoing http://keithandrews.com/talks/2015/ddj-2015-11-26/
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Zegnat It can now use touch to sweep through slides
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sknebel correct URL is http://keithandrews.com/talks/2015/ddj-2015-11-26/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Keith Andrews: for example, i have sides at http://keithandrews.com/talks/2015/ddj-2015-11-26/ and I can control with my phone (twitter.com/_/status/729321131711176704)
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Zegnat Tilting has also been implemented
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@ralph_hansen RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the flickr library was open sourced a month ago, and the inputs are all the aspect ratios of the images (twitter.com/_/status/729321203446513664)
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Zegnat Using the MotionEvents API
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Keith Andrews: can also navigate slides by tilting the phone (twitter.com/_/status/729321273440919552)
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@ralph_hansen RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: so each photo that is in an album has links to the rest of the album (twitter.com/_/status/729321283578675200)
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Zegnat All written in TypeScript, but without other external dependencies
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@ralph_hansen RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I have album posts now on my own site like flickr, which will collect comments (twitter.com/_/status/729321351186677760)
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@btconf RT @faulancr Vom Hauptbahnhof fährt der 707 Bus Schienenersatzverkehr direkt zu @sipgateDE Wupperstrasse. #btconf #indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/netzvagabund/status/729299869945466881 (twitter.com/_/status/729321598419910657)
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Zegnat Next up: glennjones
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Zegnat http://glennjones.net
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Zegnat He has been looking into owntracks
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Zegnat http://owntracks.org
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Zegnat You need to run a native app to get geo tracking
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@webrocker Nice #webmention plugin work for Craft CMS demoed by @m_ott - def. need to check out this cms https://matthiasott.com/articles/the-art-of-the-restart @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/729321911809921024)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @glennjones: I had a look at an app called owntracks that runs in the background on the phone as web apps don't do that (twitter.com/_/status/729321914934562816)
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loqi.me created /OwnTracks (+60) "prompted by sknebel and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /updated (+97) "/* Handling */ update any POSSE copies, link to details on POSSE page" (view diff)
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Zegnat Uses NQTT for message queueing
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @glennjones: this app logs your location and send events when you arrive at a geofenced location (twitter.com/_/status/729322084078223360)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+49) "/* Handling */ delete POSSE copies details" (view diff)
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Zegnat The iPhone app lets you set-up a URL where it will communicate the geo data to
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @glennjones: it has a find your friends feature, which uses MQTT to send events that I can tap into (twitter.com/_/status/729322361615327232)
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Zegnat So glennjones has build a webserver that can sit and listen to inputs
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GWG OwnTracks looks intriguing.
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Zegnat Location comes up as soon as the app publishes
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Zegnat JSON content with the actual location in lat/lon (and some battery data)
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Zegnat Using HTTP Basic security
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @glennjones: it sends lat long and time out via json to a webhook post (twitter.com/_/status/729322614632517632)
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Zegnat Android is more difficult because it uses NQTT, so you will need a server that actually handles that
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Zegnat Glenn is using an extra server that accepts that and then just forwards it to the standard HTTP POST based endpoint
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Zegnat What will hopefully happen in the future is that it will trigger notifications for him so he can chose on his phone if he wants to do a checkin or not
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+4) "/* POSSE or Send Webmentions First */ update FAQ link" (view diff)
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Zegnat Possibly using geofencing so it only comes up for specific locations.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @glennjones: in future I want tot take it a bit further and do chrome notifications SO I can check in from those events (twitter.com/_/status/729323003998183424)
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Zegnat Next up: bastian
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Zegnat He is a big fan of Airtable, a Google Spreasheet alternative
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Zegnat The table will give you an API for everything
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Zegnat READ and POST APIs are ready out of the box
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Zegnat https://airtable.com
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bastianallgeier: I'm a fan of Airtable - a google spreadsheet alternative that gives an api for everything (twitter.com/_/status/729323351265529861)
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Zegnat He wants to move from this hosted service to something he would control himself
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bastianallgeier: it has a lot of prebuilt column types and layouts that are useful (twitter.com/_/status/729323516735021056)
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@diddleapp RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @glennjones: it has a find your friends feature, which uses MQTT to send events that I can tap into (twitter.com/_/status/729323517779554304)
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Zegnat It is not about replicating airtable, but more about how such a back-end would work for oneself
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bastianallgeier: now airtable is a hosted service, so I wanted a backend for myself (twitter.com/_/status/729323635840684032)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bastianallgeier: i wanted to make it file based as that is easier to back up (twitter.com/_/status/729323805223440384)
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Zegnat You define a DB schema (YAML) but with column types that you would not usually find in a database
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Zegnat The back-end then gives you special parsers (validators, getters, setters) for those specific types
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Loqi [indieweb] "Shared a post by Kevin Marks" https://kylewm.com/2016/05/repost-of-kevin-marks-inspired-by-https-twitter-com
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@kylewmahan RT @kevinmarks Inspired by @iwontsignuphere and @jkphl, I made #indieweb Joy Division themed sparklines http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html (twitter.com/_/status/729324083435855872)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bastianallgeier: I define a schema but with column types that are good for online use (twitter.com/_/status/729324092424232960)
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Zegnat All the data ends up in simple YAML files, for nice/easy back-uping
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bastianallgeier: the posts end up in YAML files so they are easy to back up (twitter.com/_/status/729324234137317378)
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Zegnat Possible extension will be a straight backup method, to make your prototyping even faster and less painful
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@m_ott @webrocker @indiewebcamp Craft is great! You have complete control and (≠ WordPress) you can start without assumptions reg. the frontend. (twitter.com/_/status/729324378652082176)
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Zegnat jkphl.is did a lot of housecleaning as well, and helped juli (who is up next)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I did a lot of tidying up on my site and helped Julie (twitter.com/_/status/729324611993657344)
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Zegnat Domainname got registered at the bar
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Zegnat She was wondering why she would need a website when she had a tumblr, flickr, instagram, etc
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sknebel http://julieannenoying.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iwontsignuphere: I made my nick name Julie Anne Noying a while ago, and this week a domain name was registered at the bar (twitter.com/_/status/729324852989984768)
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Loqi julie anne
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iwontsignuphere: so now I'm at http://julieannenoying.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/729324980551356417)
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@btconf Fantastic set of photos by @iwontsignuphere of day one at the #IndieWebCamp. https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/sets/72157667827003412/ (twitter.com/_/status/729325205995323392)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iwontsignuphere: I have rel me links to my twitter and flickr and an example photo from my collection (twitter.com/_/status/729325238220038144)
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Zegnat Also showing of KevinMarks' http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html
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Loqi The Joy of Sparks 2016-05-08
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iwontsignuphere: and this post is what @kevinmarks made based on my t-shirt this weekend http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html (twitter.com/_/status/729325347724918784)
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Zegnat Next up quick.io
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Zegnat aka https://andreasnebiker.com
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Loqi Andreas Nebiker
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Zegnat Hr has been “catching up a bit”
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Zegnat Has been giving the website (after resurrecting it before IWC) a big front-end overhaul
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Zegnat And implementing h-card, like announced this morning
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@webrocker @m_ott my cms of choice is @processwire - wp only because of my blog running on it since 2005 :) @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/729325628550483968)
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Zegnat His second plan was to get a service worker working
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Zegnat But it currently only serves the HTML
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Andreas Nebiker: my site is at https://andreasnebiker.com (twitter.com/_/status/729325654072647680)
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Zegnat The idea being that adding this to your homescreen on your phone you should have all information for contact right there
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@jkphl RT @btconf Fantastic set of photos by @iwontsignuphere of day one at the #IndieWebCamp. https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/sets/72157667827003412/ (twitter.com/_/status/729325794330349568)
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Zegnat Even when offline
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Andreas Nebiker: I got h-card working and started to get a service worker installed for offline use (twitter.com/_/status/729325889930993664)
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Zegnat The idea is that the current site will only show when offline (offline only gets an h-card) otherwise people get an actual feed of recent activities
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Zegnat Interesting idea for offering different contect depending on online status
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Andreas Nebiker: so I show my face on the site when you're offline and replace with updates later (twitter.com/_/status/729326154205659136)
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KevinMarks who's up?
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Zegnat sknebel, do you have the URL?
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Zegnat https://webgefrickel.de/
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Zegnat is up now
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Zegnat showing of his work on service workers
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@Editor_Page Heute in Düsseldorf jetzt hier live #indieWebCamp nicht familientauglich @IndieWebCampDE https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/729326563339190272)
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Zegnat He has worked on cache refreshing for the service worker
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Zegnat He has also been working on his micropub implementation
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webgefrickel: I have a service worker set up, and it can bring in infor from elsewhere (twitter.com/_/status/729326817039896576)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webgefrickel: I'm now working on my micropub (twitter.com/_/status/729326860039905281)
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Zegnat Service working has an hash of the JSON package and that way can reregister itself as a newer version
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Zegnat seems to be the gist of it
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Zegnat Jochm is showing of what they have been implementing for the bookmarking service
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@m_ott Photo grids, flicking slides by accelerometer, a new backend scheme, APIs, ServiceWorkers. Impressive #Demos at #IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf! (twitter.com/_/status/729327409644875777)
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Zegnat token endpoint is not fully operational yet, but they are working on their own auth implementation
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KevinMarks http://wersdoerfer.de/ ?
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sknebel Zegnat is presenting now
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@jkphl Woohoo! @iwontsignuphere demoing her first #indieweb site incl. h-card, rel=me, @Indie_Auth & random @Flickr img! https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729327764000669697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729327764000669697)
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@m_ott @webrocker @indiewebcamp I haven't checked @processwire yet. Thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/729327792379301889)
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KevinMarks who is zegnat?
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven is a long-time web tinkerer living in Tösse, Sweden http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Vanderven.se/martijn/
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sknebel worked on h-card, added facebook messenger barcode, made it representative
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @martinvdven: I added h-card to my site as a representative hcard (twitter.com/_/status/729328112501035008)
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sknebel has telephone numbers in h-card, with protocols in front. doesn't know if that work
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sknebel also made endpoint to get pinboard tags for random urls
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @martinvdven: if you're parsing h-card for phonenumber, I'm using urls so check if that works for youu (twitter.com/_/status/729328453732864001)
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sknebel (normally requires auth)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @martinvdven: I made an endpoint to retrieve pinboard tags for arbirtary URLs (twitter.com/_/status/729328678140706816)
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KevinMarks who'd this?
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sknebel he looked at micropub
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sknebel wants to make an intelligent endpoint
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Zegnat Would like to create a natural language date parser, inspired by fantastical's handling
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Zegnat http://jansauer.de
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Zegnat was that
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Zegnat Now up, sknebel
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Zegnat Also did mostly plumbing stuff
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Zegnat Worked on scheduled posts going up in the future, and hold off on doing webmentions until a post is actually officially published
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @sknebel: I mostly did plumbing stuff for future posts so I can send webmentions once the post has actually been published (twitter.com/_/status/729329778440818688)
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Zegnat sknebel showing how data is stored on the server end
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Zegnat the flat file storage TXT files are available through a public URL
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Zegnat http://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/4/22/a.txt for http://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/4/22/
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Loqi [Sven Knebel] http://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/4/22/clocks.jpg
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sknebel yeah, loqi likes my markup now ;) (sort of. image needs an alt tag...)
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tantek voxpelli: do you know how to manually unregister or reset a protocol handler that has been registered via RegisterProtocolHandler?
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Loqi yo
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voxpelli tantek: yes, depends on browser, you're Firefox I assume?
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tantek yes user is on FIrefox
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tantek demoing now :)
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Zegnat Now a demo of a protocol handler for web-actions
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Zegnat what is web-action?
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voxpelli Preferences -> Applications -> Search for "web+action" -> select value in dropdown
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Loqi A web action is the interface and user experience of taking a specific discrete action, across the web, from one site to another site or application https://indiewebcamp.com/web_action
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voxpelli tantek: "Application details..." in dropdown allows deletion of setting
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tantek we definitely need to document that in the wiki
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Zegnat href="web-action:auth" being shown in use
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Zegnat Safari is considering support, but no real support yet. You might want to check that (using JS) and display web-action only when supported
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Zegnat several shoutouts to voxpelli
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Zegnat suspense in the room as tantek says he might have something to demo
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Zegnat "its half working"
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Zegnat s/its/it's
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Loqi Zegnat meant to say: "it's half working"
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Zegnat shoutout to http://xkcd.com/386/
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Zegnat But he is advocating for us doing it, even when the XKCD seems to suggest you should stop doing this
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Zegnat Sometimes you just need to lose a discussion
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Zegnat tantek is now demoing his /Delete flow
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Zegnat (wait, the wiki is not /Delete?)
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sknebel What is deleted?
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Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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Zegnat Meta data status as 410 Gone
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sknebel ^wiki documentation of his discussion with voxpelli earlier, also in IRC logs earlier today
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aaronparecki.com created /Delete (+20) "r because it was linked to" (view diff)
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Zegnat instead of actual HTTP header change
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Zegnat Tantek makes a post disappear automatically, by setting a future delete date
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Zegnat Navigation still needs fixing, as it does not skip over deleted posts
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Zegnat Example link: http://tantek.com/2016/129/t2
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] This post is gone.
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Zegnat dt-deleted items will stick around in the feed for readers to update
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Zegnat Deleting POSSE copies is still an open issue
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Zegnat demos ending
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Zegnat adactio and aaronpk stand up to end things
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tantek see https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#Delete for discussion of deleting POSSE copies
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Zegnat beers and bbq outside, so we ar thanking sponsor sipgate again for the venue, food, et al
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tantek http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html
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Loqi The Joy of Sparks 2016-05-08
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kylewm really impressed with the demos, great work all!
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Zegnat Shoutout to veganstraightedge.com for the new logo
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Zegnat http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html back on screen
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Loqi The Joy of Sparks 2016-05-08
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GWG Did someone say New York?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I got deleting posts working on my site eg http://tantek.com/2016/129/t2 is gone, by setting a deleted date (twitter.com/_/status/729333862048800768)
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Zegnat glenn will make the journey if there is one in brighton
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Zegnat I think you did, GWG
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Zegnat clean-up time
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KevinMarks see also http://svgur.com/s/5R
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Loqi SocialWG irc activity
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Zegnat signing off again
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voxpelli for web-actions/indie-config: How to remove protocol handler from Chrome: Settings -> Advanced -> Content settings -> Manage handlers(?)
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@webgefrickel And it's a wrap! Had lots of fun @indiewebcamp - but now I have even more on my todo-list ;) (twitter.com/_/status/729335233049468930)
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@jkphl .@indiewebcamp DUS is over — & was a blast! Thanks to the organizers @aaronpk @t @adactio, 👉@marcthiele👈 & @sipgate! https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729335870873063425/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729335870873063425)
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@btconf RT @jkphl .@indiewebcamp DUS is over — & was a blast! Thanks to the organizers @aaronpk @t @adactio, 👉@marcthiele👈 & @sipgate! https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/729335870873063425/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729336560785723392)
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@kevinmarks Notes from closing demos at IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf: http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebcampdusseldorfdemos2016.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/729336645950930948)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from closing demos at IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf: http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebcampdusseldorfdemos2016.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-closing-demos-at-indiewebcamp-d%C3%BCsseldorf-indiewebcampdusseldorfdemos2016html-indieweb
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[andreasnebiker] Hi from Slack. Finally a reason to use this
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Zegnat pinging [andreasnebiker] as a test
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GWG Hello
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Zegnat Does it translate to Slack or not
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Zegnat also trying without squarebrackets: andreasnebiker
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Zegnat Also trying slack syntax: @andreasnebiker
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[andreasnebiker] So far no dice @zegnat ;(
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@gRegorLove RT @kevinmarks Inspired by @iwontsignuphere and @jkphl, I made #indieweb Joy Division themed sparklines http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html (twitter.com/_/status/729359400175951872)
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[shaners] Thanks to everyone who wrote in the channel what was happening at camp, so I don't have to watch the videos. :+1::skin-tone-2:
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@C_Logemann RT @wltrd Als @sipgate Kunde freue ich mich über die Unterstützung vom #indiewebcamp Düsseldorf. Tolles Essen & Location! https://twitter.com/wltrd/status/729220824876630016/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/729376380102819841)
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[shaners] And be sure to order up your IWC shirt in the next 7 days.
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[shaners] https://teespring.com/indiewebcamp
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@LitaPirrassa RT @IndieWebCampDE 1. #IndieWeb Hack Day im @zbau_nbg #Nürnberg am 22.6. im Rahmen der @openSUSE-Konferenz 2016 — jetzt Platz sichern! http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg/IndieWeb-Hack-Day (twitter.com/_/status/729383590371438592)
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[kevinmarks] Shaners, did you like the joy division sparklines?
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[shaners] Kevinmarks: 1. I wouldn't call those sparklines. Which is fine. A line chart is perfectly ok. 2. I was never into joy division. So, while the original shirt looks cool, the remixes aren't anything special to me. 3. But your execution was very good. And the idea is clever.
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GWG I have to figure out what to do next
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GWG I think I wrote something vaguely Salmentionish, but I heard about this discussion earlier I need to catch up on
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sknebel GWG: yeah, also look at the wiki edit history for today,i edits on on /updated, /deleted, /reply-context hopefully document it quite well
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GWG I did a lot of work recently on updating.
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GWG But I saw something about amplification that concerns me
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[andreasnebiker] Hi matthiasott
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GWG I added code that I haven't tested that looks an h-entrys marked as comments on a webmention retrieved source and adds them as threaded comments triggering the same code that enhances the original webmentions
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GWG I need to figure out how to test it
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@jeffubois This looks excellent http://2016.indieweb.org/ @indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/729418802664984576)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from closing demos at IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf: http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebcampdusseldorfdemos2016.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-closing-demos-at-indiewebcamp-d%C3%BCsseldorf-indiewebcampdusseldorfdemos2016html-indieweb
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Loqi [indieweb] "Inspired by @iwontsignuphere and @jkphl, I made #indieweb Joy Division themed sparklines http://www.kevinmarks.com/joyofsparks.html" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/inspired-by-iwontsignuphere-and-jkphl-i-made-indieweb-joy-division
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@thrilway @JesseThorn I 100% agree. I'd be more interested to see collaboration between podcasters and (e.g.) the IndieWeb community, though. (twitter.com/_/status/729422834276040704)
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Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf" by Stefan https://eay.cc/2016/indiewebcamp-duesseldorf/
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Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf:" http://eay.li/2ta
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@eaybot IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf: https://eay.cc/2016/indiewebcamp-duesseldorf/ (twitter.com/_/status/729426734588821507)
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aaronpk haha [shaners] your "thanks for the irc notes" comment is great and also sad because it takes a lot of effort to make the videos of the sessions
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GWG a
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GWG aaronpk, I liked the video, but the audio was very low.
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aaronpk really? darn
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aaronpk was it better yesterday or today?
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GWG Yesterday, I think. I said it was low at the time. Had to raise my speaker volume
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Zegnat Oh man, I must have not seen that GWG, else I would have raised the issue with aaronpk, like I did when people wrote there was no audio at all at the start
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Zegnat also a thank you to sknebel who jumped in and got some personal URLs from people I didn’t have at my fingertips during today's demoing session
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bear cool - my posts now us dt-published, dt-updated and dt-deleted as needed
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bear is very happy
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@webrocker well chuffed after being awake for 20+ hrs. great 2nd day of getting #indieweb stuff done & great #btconf warm up afterwards - cu tomorrow (twitter.com/_/status/729443966702243840)
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@ssp2158 WP push http://srikanthperinkulam.com/indieweb/wp-push (twitter.com/_/status/729447413241384960)
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