#indiewebcamp 2016-05-26

2016-05-26 UTC
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aaronpk
awesome
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[kevinmarks]
Do you want one from unmung.com too?
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willnorris
[kevinmarks]: what library is unmung running?
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[kevinmarks]
the python one with a couple of tweaks, so not different from kyle's much
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[kevinmarks]
unless you're on the BBC recipes site
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[kevinmarks]
I did normalise unicode to utf8
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[kevinmarks]
so that is different
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Loqi
microformats2-parsing-issues
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@aegibson73
This is a long term goal of mine. @chimo already has his setup. https://indiewebcamp.com
(twitter.com/_/status/735633915965235202)
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KevinMarks
hm, thats a novel approach to a webmention endpoint
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KevinMarks
<link rel="webmention" href="https://aaronegibson.com/?webmention=endpoint" />
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KevinMarks
it already has a parameter
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KevinMarks
which I think is breaking both my and Known's WM sending
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[kylewm]
kevinmarks: wordpress's has always been like that
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KevinMarks
hm, OK, I
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KevinMarks
ll try again
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aaronpk
Yeah it's always been that way but I also added explicit text to the spec to allow that. And a webmention.rocks test checks that as well
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GWG
I think there was a reason
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KevinMarks
I wonder why it is failing then
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KevinMarks
hm, I need to flush bad tasks
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KevinMarks
ah trailing /
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willnorris
kylewm: looks great, thanks!
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@IndieWebCampDE
Mit 6 Leuten hat der gestrige erste Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg hat einen guten Start hingelegt! #indieweb https://www.flickr.com/short_urls.gne?photoset=aHskxboA2T
(twitter.com/_/status/735752598070792192)
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@dkreuz
RT @IndieWebCampDE Mit 6 Leuten hat der gestrige erste Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg hat einen guten Start hingelegt! #indieweb https://www.flickr.com/short_urls.gne?photoset=aHskxboA2T
(twitter.com/_/status/735753197994704896)
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@egoexpress
RT @IndieWebCampDE Mit 6 Leuten hat der gestrige erste Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg hat einen guten Start hingelegt! #indieweb https://www.flickr.com/short_urls.gne?photoset=aHskxboA2T
(twitter.com/_/status/735759349419642882)
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jkphl.is
created /User:Julieannenoying.Com (+430) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name">Juliane Schütz</span> = <span class="p-role">Web designer & Photographer</span> from <span class="p-locality">Nürnberg</span>, <span class="p-country-nam...""
(view diff)
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jkphl.is
created /Template:julieannenoying (+163) "Created page with "<span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline|https://twitter.com/iwontsignuphere/profile_image}} [[User:julieannenoying.com|Juliane Schütz]]</span>""
(view diff)
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Loqi
cweiske: tantek left you a message 17 hours, 26 minutes ago: yeah I'm looking at obsoleteing that Atom feed, preferring to use h-feed http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-25/line/1464194621059
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cweiske
what happens when an indieweb site gets lots of comments, likes and shares: https://adactio.com/journal/10708
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Loqi
[Jeremy Keith] Regressive Web Apps
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cweiske
is there a view helper which gives me the first variable that has content?
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cweiske
e.g. when I have variable "defaultmail" and "contact.mail", I want to use contact.mail if it is filled. if not, it should fall back to defaultmail
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cweiske
like <cool:firstof val="{contact.mail}" val2="{defaultmail}"/>
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@synvila
Are there any people from #indiewebcamp who does "microcasts" or similar audio posts? Looking for stuff to follow and be inspired by.
(twitter.com/_/status/735800729458364416)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Attending IndieWeb Summit 2016" by Will Norris https://willnorris.com/2016/05/indieweb-summit
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aaronpk
"microcasts"?
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aaronpk
I didn't even know that was a thing
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aaronpk
tho it appears "microcast" refers to audio segments that are about 5-10 minutes. i would have expected shorter, like radio news segment length.
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
At least in SF, the HWC quiet writing hour has been growing quite consistently, enough to put it on more equal footing IMO in the descriptions
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tantek.com
edited /events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club (+30) "/* What */ expand quiet writing, rewrite description of meetup / hack night"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell aaronpk,benwerd,KevinMarks,kylewm Since quiet writing hour has been growing at HWC SF, I've updated the HWC description put it on more equal footing, and emphasized the IndieWeb demos more (which have gotten good feedback) Thoughts? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club#What
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, duh, n/m
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tantek
hilarious
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tantek
catches up on logs from overnight
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[kylewm]
tantek: I think those changes look good. Can you make it a little more apparent that Quiet writing hour is venue-specific? i.e. under the *What* section
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[kylewm]
also wondering if we can get rid of "
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[kylewm]
All times are Pacific Time unless otherwise noted in venues."
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[kylewm]
since I think P[SD]T is now the exception rather than the rule!
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Loqi
[kylewm]: tantek left you a message 12 minutes ago: Since quiet writing hour has been growing at HWC SF, I've updated the HWC description put it on more equal footing, and emphasized the IndieWeb demos more (which have gotten good feedback) Thoughts? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club#What http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-26/line/1464277725411
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@TechLifeWeb
RT @synvila Are there any people from #indiewebcamp who does "microcasts" or similar audio posts? Looking for stuff to follow and be inspired by.
(twitter.com/_/status/735866848575512576)
nitot_, nitot and j12t joined the channel
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tantek
kylewm ok will try an iteration
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tantek
LOL: https://adactio.com/journal/10708#comment33107 <-- that comment in particular, you have to click scroll to it unless Loqi has figured out how to get fragment ID referenced content
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Loqi
[Jeremy Keith] Regressive Web Apps
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aaronpk
is there a description of how to find the text of a comment from a fragment ID?
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aaronpk
it looks like adactio has good markup and that one would be relatively easy. take the HTML tree starting at the fragment ID and parse that with the mf2 parser
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tantek
the practice pre-dates IndieWebCamp so I'm not sure we've ever written it down there!
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tantek
right, that, basically
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aaronpk
but sometimes the fragment ID is just in a <a id="foo"></a> with the text outside of that
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tantek
or after it
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sknebel
take the h-item the fragment link is in?
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adactio
But if an HTML element has both an h-entry class and an ID, wouldn't that be a good indicator to parse the fragment as a comment?
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aaronpk
i'm wondering how much "magic" to build into a parser that handles this basically
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aaronpk
like should it only handle the cases like adactio's where it's very well constructed HTML, or try to catch more of the edge cases too
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tantek
only the cases where it's well constructed, then fallback to current behavior (page level)
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tantek
so yeah, mf2 parse the DOM tree at that frag ID, use the first h-* object
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tantek
if no items, then use the page as a whole
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tantek
that's a good start :)
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tantek
we can add more use-cases as needed
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KevinMarks
and don't worry about name id's
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Loqi
KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 58 minutes ago: Since quiet writing hour has been growing at HWC SF, I've updated the HWC description put it on more equal footing, and emphasized the IndieWeb demos more (which have gotten good feedback) Thoughts? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club#What http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-26/line/1464277725411
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tantek
that too!
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aaronpk
oh yeah good that makes it easier
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KevinMarks
though I suppose you could apply the containing element thing that fragmention does
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aaronpk
now that i think about it, i see the pattern of <a name="foo"></a> with content after that more often than with IDs
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KevinMarks
that's oldschool markup. blogegr still preserves it I think
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tantek
aaronpk, you meant antipattern
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aaronpk
yes but antipatterns are a subset of patterns right? ;-)
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aaronpk
ha wow
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KevinMarks
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8602367063649488172"> <a name="c8602367063649488172"></a> <div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock"><span dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.blogger.com/profile/11855510310992673801" rel="nofollow" onclick="" class="avatar-hovercard" id="av-0-11855510310992673801"><img src="//img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" width="16" height="16" alt="" title="Brien Malone"> </a></span></div> <a hr
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tantek
interesting follow-up to adactio's post, in HN of all places: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11772514
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tantek
is anyone backfeeding from HN?
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aaronpk
that name sounds familiar
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tantek
very likely
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[kylewm]
tantek: I do everything I can to avoid HN
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tantek
perhaps adactio can talk kinlan into posting comments on his own site instead of HN ;)
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tantek
paul.kinlan.me
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KevinMarks
Paul is the web intents chap
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tantek
I think Nürnberg is now the most photogenic HWC. Goodness: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/sets/72157666365389413/
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KevinMarks
that looks like stock photos for "shiny web startup"
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tantek.com
edited /events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club (-162) "-PT by default, note quiet writing hour at some venues, simplify when to de-dup description"
(view diff)
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tantek
kylewm - take a look, took your suggestions, and tried to simplify even further: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club#When
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tantek
pro-tip: when you see a "</div>" in a wiki page (not just when editing), it likely means there's a missing </span> in the source (edit the page and find/fix it)
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KevinMarks
it's a bit odd when you edit a partial page and there's a </div> in it
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KevinMarks
threw me in the guest list yesterday
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aaronpk
*sigh* mediawiki
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gRegorLove
Any messages, Loqi?
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aaronpk
thinks he should increase the timeout on the slack gateway since more people are using it regularly now
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tantek
aaronpk: in looking at https://indiewebcamp.com/2015#Photos - have we reached out to folks that came last year for coming back to IWS?
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aaronpk
i haven't
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[benatwork]
Can I mention how much I love that “unnecessary weirdness” post? Kyle pointed me at it and I can’t stop thinking about it
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aaronpk
except I have talked to yourmom.io
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aaronpk
[benatwork]: me too!
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[benatwork]
It’s very similar to the startup “iterate the one thing that makes you special, and do everything else in a standard way” to minimize the reasons why someone would reject you
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[benatwork]
(advice I’m bad at following)
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tantek
benatwork I disagree with the "one thing" framing the same reason I disagree with the "follow your passion" advice. It's too self-limiting, and fragile.
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tantek
better: iterate the *things* that make you special, listen to market response to them, and focus next iteration on the subset of those things that the market responds more strongly to.
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tantek
and then all the other "do everything else in a standard way”
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+222) "/* Current setup & practices */ FB profile & reply POSSE breakdown"
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tantek
sidenote, maybe this is why startups/projects need to "pivot" so often, they have mis-chosen the "one thing" (because of said bad advice), pushed it into the ground, and then they have to "pivot" to a new "one thing" and hope that their luck is better
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[benatwork]
pivoting, if it’s done right, can be thought of as refining
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[benatwork]
you start in a direction with a rough hypothesis and change what you’re doing based on feedback
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[benatwork]
if a pivot is a complete change you probably started out with the wrong hypothesis
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[benatwork]
“Things” is a fair change, but you can’t do too many things
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gRegorLove
What's this "unnecessary weirdness" post?
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Inessential Weirdnesses in Open Source Software
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aaronpk
adds that to the reading list for the Leaders' Summit
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2016/Leaders (+177) "/* Session Ideas */"
(view diff)
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tantek
benatwork, I think stretching pivoting to include just refining is an unuseful dilution of the term
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tantek
common understanding of pivoting includes giving up on the previous thing
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tantek
of course you can't do too many things, but that problem is self-solving, at all levels
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tantek
the problem of artificially constrained focus, the "one thing" framing, however, is not solvable at all levels, because it is a negative force
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tantek
and is exactly why people have to resort to calling things "side projects" or "skunkworks"
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KartikPrabhu
what is service worker?
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Loqi
service workers are scripts that run in the background, separate from tabs with the site open, and are commonly used for offline functionality and push notifications https://indiewebcamp.com/service_worker
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tantek
why not admit that it is *right* to pursue multiple things you're good at, not knowing which is most important, and learn by iteration?
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /service_worker (+45) "start indieweb examples section with a blank as prompt"
(view diff)
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tantek
the fetishization of side projects and skunkworks (plenty of posts about always have a side project etc.) would be unnecessary if we weren't oppressed by the dominant framing of "the one thing"
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KartikPrabhu
anyone using service workers please add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/service_worker so we have examples for others!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: check recent Demos sessions from /2016/Dusseldorf and /2016/Nuremberg for demos of indieweb sites that added service worker
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[benatwork]
side projects are usually because you’re working for someone else, and therefore don’t have autonomy to pursue your own goals. ideal to avoid but often not possible. skunkworks is similar, in larger companies with lots of layers of management.
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KartikPrabhu
cool will so
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[benatwork]
if you’re running side projects while also running your own company, you’re doing something wrong.
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KartikPrabhu
hmmm that is a weirdly strong claim ^
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[benatwork]
(or you have a cofounder who isn’t on board with your ideas.)
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aaronpk
considers that comment
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tantek
benatwork, completely agreed. in all cases you listed there is deception, what I'm saying is, avoid self-deception in that process.
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aaronpk
definitely had side projects while also running a startup
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[benatwork]
+1
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KartikPrabhu
is a physicist with many side projects including indieweb so <shrug>
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KartikPrabhu
unless the discussion is exclusively about companies
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tantek
Kartikprabhhu, you are not job, nor are you your degree.
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[benatwork]
right, I think it’s different if the side projects are irrelevant to what you’re doing as a business
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[benatwork]
every side project I had ended up wrapped into Known in some way (the bot, etc)
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KevinMarks
microformats were a side project at a startup tantek and I worked at
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tantek
no microformats started as a talk when I worked at Microsoft
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tantek
and yes that was very definitely a side-project, that I realized was more "one of the things I was good at", and that self-realization contributed to quitting
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tantek
at Technorati we were allowed to make working on microformats part of our day job
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tantek
it was not a side project
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KevinMarks
I meant that in a good way - a side project that outlasted the host organism. Like Slack and Glitch
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tantek
KevinMarks: this is my point about "the fetishization of side projects and skunkworks (plenty of posts about always have a side project etc.) would be unnecessary"
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tantek
btw that weirdnesses article does not go far enough
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tantek
I'm going go out on a limb here and say that if your community is unable to attract people that are "different" in ways inessential to the community (e.g. your gender / race etc. should not matter in anything open source), then you have a problem
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tantek
or you don't have a community, you have a club of close friends
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tantek
but as soon as you make that "community" claim, if all you've got are white men, then you've got a problem
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KartikPrabhu
iirc that has be levied against this "community" too sometimes
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: has *been*
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KartikPrabhu
yeah sorry being keyboard dumb at the moment
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tantek
However I will point out that *every* IndieWebCamp has had at least some women and usually non-white participants too
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tantek
and we should continue to work hard to improve that
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tantek
and age range too btw
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tantek
e.g. this was pretty good last year: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF#Photos but we can do better
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tantek
(it makes sense to compare year-over-year for same cities / regions)
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@jgmac1106
@kevinmarks I had no idea I could make svgs in Google Drawing. I thought it was all kinds of complicated. changes things. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/735904549383311360)
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KevinMarks
I agree, that post is very well written and evokes empathy well
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tantek
This in particular is something I think we're pretty good (not always) at avoiding: http://blog.aurynn.com/86/contempt-culture <-- still worth reading
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tantek
really appreciate that there's a name for that
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tantek.com
edited /2016/Düsseldorf (+263) "/* Photos */ more twitch gifs"
(view diff)
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miklb
Can brid.gy webmention endpoints be used as syndicate-to links?
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aaronpk
yeah! that's how I use bridgy publish
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miklb
cool. I've reached out to Aaron Gustafason on his Jekyll webmention plugin about being able to send webmentions from beyond what is in the text of the markdown file. He seems to think Front Matter wouldn't be that difficult. Which would be the missing piece of my Jekyll/Micropub/Notes/POSSE holy grail :-)
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aaronpk
awesome
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miklb
It's still a fairly limited use for general Jekyll users, but one more step closer until a way to send via feed surfaces.
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GWG
Howdy
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aaronpk
silopub++
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Loqi
silopub has 1 karma
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aaronpk
just used it to posse to github
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snarfed
oh man github posse, so good
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snarfed
makes me want backfeed
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snarfed
...wait, i'd need to build that. crap. :P
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GWG
snarfed, you can do it.
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GWG
I have faith in you
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snarfed
lol yes, just wish i had the time
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snarfed
silopub++ regardless
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snarfed
kylewm++
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Loqi
silopub has 2 karma
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Loqi
kylewm has 331 karma
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miklb
oh, wait, I can use silo.pub with my own micropub endpoint?
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snarfed
that's...confusing
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snarfed
what would that do?
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aaronpk
miklb: my "syndicate to" options are all either webmentuon endpoints like bridgy publish and indienews or micropub endpoints like silo.pub
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aaronpk
it's actualy pretty slick to configure a new one too
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miklb
ah. I saw the `post to hosted blogs on Wordpress.com, Tumblr, or Blogger.` and didn't really look closer
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GWG
aaronpk, does Indienews have a logo?
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aaronpk
hm it does not
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GWG
aaronpk, could it?
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GWG
I would try, but I have no logo talents.
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GWG
I am working on updating Syndication Links to SVG.
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GWG
As well as the Indieweb plugin. So I figured I'd ask.
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GWG
I am worried about breaking snarfed's site
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snarfed
is embarrasingly still on the synd links plugin 1.x
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snarfed
sigh leading space
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snarfed
GWG: don't worry though, people can always downgrade if a new version breaks them
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GWG
snarfed, if I switch to SVG over icon fonts, people will notice.
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snarfed
of course! it's your prerogative as the maintainer though
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GWG
I think it is better going forward, especially since Genericons is deprecating social icons.
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KartikPrabhu
why does an API have "max-height" in it!?
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aaronpk
that's from oembed
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aaronpk
it's to tell the server the dimensions of where the thing will be embedded so the server can decide to return something different depending on the size
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gregorlove.com
edited /service_worker (+84) "/* Indieweb Examples */ +adactio"
(view diff)
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[emmak]
one frustration i've had with oembed is the fixed dimensions don't work well with responsive layouts
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aaronpk
I'm not surprised. oembed was created before responsive layouts were a thing :-)
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snarfed
fwiw i've been happy with http://embed.ly/ for embedding arbitrary web pages
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snarfed
similar to oembed but more modern. (and proprietary, granted.)
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Jeena
Can someone who understands the twitter API explain to me how i am counting the length of my string wrong? https://gist.github.com/jeena/8a154b7f8f31fc832f9a701a2a7ea651
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Jeena
I didn't ask you to do it Loqi ;)
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techlifeweb
I failed at captcha. I may be a robot.
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KevinMarks
I don't think they t.co localhost, so that will not be a short url
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KevinMarks
yes, http://localhost:3000/notes/595 doesn't turn blue on twitter
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snarfed
KevinMarks: maybe they require at least one dot in the domain
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Jeena
ah hm didn't think about checking on their website, I read some parts of it
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@jeena
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678... http://blog.rust-lang.org/2016/05/26/Rust-1.9.html more at https://jeena.net/notes/694
(twitter.com/_/status/735954260857376768)
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KevinMarks
you probbaly don't want t.co storing localhost urls
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gRegorLove
I need to find out how to do that on Windows ^
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techlifeweb
gRegorLove: this may help though I haven't tried it yet http://netsekure.org/2010/04/how-to-disable-trusted-root-certificates/
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Loqi
[Nasko] How to disable trusted root certificates
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snarfed1
hmm, not sure it's quite that big a deal
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snarfed
sounds like symantec did intentionally issue the intermediate cert, ie it wasn't compromised, and bluecoat is a legit org (though maybe minorly controversial)
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colintedford
Lately I seem to encounter more and more sites with menus that require js >:(
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snarfed
the post reads more like "i don't personally trust bluecoat, and i wanted to figure out how to do this anyway, so i did, and here's how you can too"
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aaronpk
i also personally don't trust bluecoat, having had direct experience with them at my last job
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KartikPrabhu
colintedford: that is unfortunate
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snarfed
got it
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colintedford
KartikPrabhu: Yes, and annoying.
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aaronpk
they sell a product that companies use to be able to MITM the web traffic on your machine. right now, in order to do that without you seeing browser warnings, the IT department installs the bluecoat intermediate cert on your computer.
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aaronpk
with this change, they'll be able to MITM the traffic without requiring that extra step
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colintedford
Even benwerd's site! (though that's not new)
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[benatwork]
huh?
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aaronpk
i guess i should write a post about this
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snarfed
aaronpk: oh definitely agreed, intermediate CA certs like this are scary. i just expect there are many iffy orgs with them, and have been for a while
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snarfed
this one may not be special
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colintedford
[benatwork]; just grousing about js-only site menus
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aaronpk
that would be unfortunate. there's also unfortunately not a good way to know.
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snarfed
aaronpk: OP would probably claim https://crt.sh/ is how to know...but you'd have to bring your own judgment of which orgs are shady :P
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[scottgruber]
If I sent up web mentions correctly when I send a mention to rsvp for the upcoming PDX should my avatar and link show up immediately?
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aaronpk
this is making a strong case for p2p networks of sharing trusted root authorities
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aaronpk
[scottgruber]: yeah pretty much immediately. if you want to debug, you can look at the response you get to the webmention
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aaronpk
just realized he should have included a webmention form on that page to make that easier
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aaronpk
[scottgruber]: it's super ugly, but plug in your RSVP URL here and then you'll be able to see the webmention response which should include some helpful error message http://2016.indieweb.org/webmention.php
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[scottgruber]
Thx. aaronpk giving it a try now.
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[emmak]
own your CA
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aaronpk
just throwing this out there ;-) https://ssl.indieweb.org/
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[emmak]
this reminds me of something kyle drake gave a talk on
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[emmak]
hosting websites on an encrypted p2p network
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[scottgruber]
“My RSVP is listed on the event page now!” Cool. My name and picture didn’t make it, but my site's url did. If I hack at it a bit can I resubmit at the same url to overwrite when I update the source url?
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snarfed
[scottgruber]: probably yes. webmention targets usually support that.
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[scottgruber]
Coolio. Thanks. I'll keep it testing it and write up notes to post my how to.
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[kevinmarks]
I wonder if webmention.rocks could add RSVP testing (it's a little orthogonal, but it is implicitly testing reply markup now)
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willnorris
[scottgruber]: definitely yes. I had some issues with my h-card originally. After fixing and resending the webmention, the event page updated with the new data
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gRegorLove
willnorris: Are you using https://github.com/microformats/tests in the go mf2 library?
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gRegorLove
Cool. A pending PR for php-mf2 adds it, so once that's in it will help identify the discrepancies you mentioned in your RSVP
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willnorris
well part of the problem with microformats/tests is that it's written primarily against the nodejs (or is it the micformats-shiv?) library. In working on the go implementation, I found several cases where I thought the tests were wrong, and was checking some of the other libs to confirm my suspicion
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willnorris
so yeah, microformats/tests was definitely the thing that motivated this little project I wanna build
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gRegorLove
Yeah, I do think there's some wrong stuff in the tests, but the impression I got from tantek is that the nodejs parser does the "best job" of the parsers so far.
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gRegorLove
Or maybe it is microformats-shiv. I don't know.
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gRegorLove
But at least using the same test suite we can coordinate better
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willnorris
If these are intended to be a shared test suite that all libraries write against, then the tests should not be written against any one library. Unless we're actually saying that that is the reference implementation