Loqiaaronpk: Zegnat left you a message 6 hours, 52 minutes ago: In case nobody else noticed it: it seems like wiki usernames with a space in them (that is: personal URLs with a slash) are not turned into links correctly in This Week in the IndieWeb. See “Earthbound.io blog”. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-19/line/1466362177790
JeenaI already don't like the subtitle "A slew of startups is trying to decentralise the online world" startups are useless, they just want to become the next Google or Facebook, they will never help us.
aaronpkGood morning #indiewebcamp! Over the weekend, http://veganstraightedge.com and http://brennannovak.com and I worked on brainstorming and documenting plans for moving to indieweb.org including some interesting fun subdomains. Much of the motivation is to help newcomers more easily get involved in the community, and hopefully try to remove some of our current "inessential weirdnesses."
Loqi[Aaron Parecki] Good morning #indiewebcamp! Over the weekend, http://veganstraightedge.com and http://brennannovak.com and I worked on brainstorming and documenting plans for moving to indieweb.org including some interesting fun subdomains. Much of the motivation is...
tantek(this is regarding indieweborg being jekyll and a notion of moving pages from wiki to there - makes them *less* accessible to contribution by non-devs, so that is undesirable)
tantekso yes, an events.indieweb.org makes sense from that perspective, especially as discussed previously - yet this involves *building* it, which frankly I'm not very confident in us having enough volunteer time to do
tantekand "there be dragons" - let's learn from the lesson of how long it has taken the new Upcoming, and that's with one person working nearly fulltime on it
tantekSo I can't actually believe you guys talked yourselves into "people.indieweb.org" - since "solving" the CRM problem is basically a billion dollar problem with lots of wreckage of attempts on the sides of the internet superhighway
tantekI would punt on that, or at worst, make it its own project independent from switching to indieweb.org which others are welcome to try to iterate on (perhaps with showing they can produce something like that on their own domain first)
aaronpkthe goal with the jekyll site at indieweb.org is not to have a lot of content there. mainly just the home page, and very slowly, other content such as a "getting started" guide.
tantekso that's a reasonable goal, however framing it as plumbing "jekyll site" is both bad framing fundamentally, and antithetical to making it more accessible to a broader community
tantekI will also add that building a separate "friendly / simple" site that subsets / duplicates info is typically the kind of thing that goes out of date
Loqitantek meant to say: wiki pages go less out of date than github or jekyll or other forms of static pages because wiki pages are more editable by a broader # of people
tantekBTW one of the reasons you MUST keep that kind of "simple intro" content more accessible to edit (and improve it that way), is that in: "when we feel they better address a later generation" the "we" there applies to *next* generations for each successive one
tantekyou have to design the system to enable empathetic proximity among generations, instead of assuming that generatio 1 will always be better adressing all generation n+1s
Loqitantek meant to say: you have to design the system to enable empathetic proximity among generations, instead of assuming that generation 1 will always be better adressing all generation n+1s
tantekanyway, general feedback is that nearly none of these subdomains should be part of the general move from indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org if you want to be agile/incremental and actually ship similar/better functionality by 2016-07-04
tantekand I have to say, most such attempts at "next year or two" thinking tend to be very mismatched to actual needs, and a much better methodology is to be incremental / iterative with each step
tantekso screwing around with plumbing is classical dev-centric futzing with the things that devs tend to better understand/hack instead of the *much* harder thing of design+content
aaronpkwhy should we encourage people to learn mediawiki syntax and the quirks of the mediawiki "way" when what we're actually asking of people is to write copy and html
tantekthis is also an absolute question which is not helpful: "why should we encourage people to learn mediawiki syntax and the quirks of the mediawiki "way" when what we're actually asking of people is to write copy and html"
tantekno matter what syntax you choose, you will have to "encourage people to learn SOME syntax and the quirks of SOME "way" when you're actually asking of people to write copy (and sometimes html)"
tantekaaronpk given how much of a pain it is to move from e.g. mediawiki to GH Markdown, that's exactly what's being proposed in the /indieweb.org page
aaronpkthen i would like to see a demonstration of making the current wiki home page look visually nicer, with actual information hierarchy and actual design
tantekaaronpk: re: "it's a wall of text, and mediawiki/markdown style of headers+paragraphs+lists lend themselves to the wall of text problem", see and add to https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki#Suggestions accordingly to at least capture your problem statements (along with current/past ones)
voxpelliGWG: that then creates second question: Is next generations best attracted by a more appealing Indieweb.org or is the purpose of such a page better fulfilled elsewhere?
tantekaaronpk, one of my frustrations is with people (like pretty much all of us) talking about problems and then JUMPING to proposed solutions without *first* documenting the problems
voxpellitantek: I'm a bit weary that I might make Indieweb less of a toolbox and more like a packaged solution and within the toolbox and the composability that comes with it lies some of the power of the Indieweb I think
tantekdiscussing in IRC is good of course, but without capturing the actual problem statement, any solutions turn into things done by a few people's intuition rather than anything acutally logically demonstrable as solving the specific problems in the first place
Loqivoxpelli meant to say: tantek: I'm a bit weary that it might make Indieweb less of a toolbox and more like a packaged solution and within the toolbox and the composability that comes with it lies some of the power of the Indieweb I think
voxpellitantek: +1, and would be great to see those solutions be presented within the community at their own sites and then just brought together in one place once that has happened
voxpelliMaybe we can start a wiki page that gathers people's presentations of what the Indieweb is and only once that's populated boil it down to a front page?
tantekGWG, depends if you mean /event posts or if you mean about having events on the wiki / indiewebcamp site - in which case it goes where all the other suggestions for improving the site go as cited above
tantek.comedited /indieweb.org (+718) "document at least a few General Issues with a citation to extract / expand inline much more in detail later" (view diff)
tantekaaronpk, did you or shaners or bnvk capture any of the "inessential weirdnesses" you came up with and were trying to solve with all this somewhere on the wiki?
tantekwriting "it all up" is anti-pattern in this case, when the problems are embedded in one possible solution or part thereof (even a (sub)domain name)
tantekwhen it looks lke a small group just summarily makes decisions, that's offputting to new people, and tends to *hurt* growth of the community, not to mention into additional generations
tantekor worse, you end-up retro-defining the problem you thought you were solving by whatever solution you built, thus rationalizing the dev time spent, but likely distracting yourself from solving the actual problem you were having in the first place
tantekaaronpk, you're right about "is this process documented anywhere?" - this is probably worthy of a blog post, now that we have a real world example with specific issues
aaronparecki.comedited /indieweb.org (+1078) "rewrite headers to not assume a solution, break out descriptions into "why" and "brainstorming", rephrase everything to not assume a particular solution, provide better background information for all "why" sections" (view diff)
[shaners]tantek: for people.indieweb.org, no one is proposing building an Enterprise Information Superhighway CRM™. We are proposing building a simple to use form with the common fields/properties that people are already writing up by hand in the wiki. (Name, url, irc nickname, photo, timezone, etc). This would serve as a simple way to create a “profile” on the indieweb site/s. (bc we already have profiles on the wiki, they’re just not the most
[shaners]myself included). AND it would serve as an h-card creator (fill out these fields, get a glob a HTML to paste into your site), the hCard creator of years gone past.
[shaners]tantek: people, events, projects. these are places on the wiki that are being created by hand, but have a pretty common structure/schema (yeah, i said it)/pattern. we think we can make them even easier to create/update/read, by pulling them out of the wiki into little apps/sites that do just that one thing.
tantekis going to postpone the UX / product design 101 blog post until after he's written and post IndieWeb Summit blog posts and microformats.org at 11 post.
tantekhappy to see these other "subsites" documented as brainstorms we can worry about after switching from indiewebcamp.com->indieweb.org. No need to tie any of them into that transition.
tantekI do recall events. because it's such a well documented pain point (if not, I'm happy to be the one documenting the pain since I experience it weekly)
tantekand "projects" is so far from being templatized on the wiki, much less even having good objective guildelines to document that to claim "have a pretty common structure/schema " is laughably out of touch with the reality of /projects
aaronpki didn't include the details of our brainstorming on projects since it's much farther out than events and people, but i can type up some notes. we did actually look through the project list and document some patterns we found.
[shaners]^^^ and for everything, we planned to leave a free form text box on every page (people, project, events) to allow continuous experimention and iteration.
aaronpki also think there's a fundamental difference between my personal website and a community website like the wiki. I *do* want profiles of people on my site (/nicknames-cache) but I don't expect other people to create those profiles.
[shaners]those were all *very* general purpose products. again, we’re talking about making a tool to add the information that people are already adding to their wiki profiles.
tantekshaners, yup needs better documentation as a brainstorm to demonstrate that. let me know when you have at least sketches of screens / UIs uploaded etc.
Loqiindieweb.org is a website in development to present indieweb ideas in a form more incrementally accessible to generations beyond generation 1 https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
tantekI keep thinking that's a "well known / understood thing" but apparently not. It's still seems fashionable "enough" for folks to keep using foo.example.com as a way of proposing let's do "foo" instead of example.com/foo
tantekEXCEPT and ONLY when you explicitly want different security / cookies (e.g. same origin / CORS concerns), which AFAIK is ONLY sensible for user profiles like what /LiveJournal does
aaronpkI am not familiar with these "why you shouldn't use subdomains" problems. there are perfectly fine solutions for sharing cookies and doing CORS requests across subdomains if that's what you want to do.
tantek_another good example (like LiveJournal) is github io. e.g. tantek.github.io vs aaronpk.github.io. both from a security/privacy perspective, and an IA perspective of emphasizing the username *over* the brand
gRegorLoveiirc, I thought the subdomains we talked about at leader summit was mostly for the IWCs, like 2016.indieweb.org was. And mainly because they're a different layout, not wiki pages.
aaronpkfor example, I didn't even know that getting an account on the mf blog was a thing that was possible. can I write a blog post there? i had no idea.
tanteksaying "we small group of people worked hard" is a horrible rationalization for anything in an open community if your goal is growing the community
aaronpkIn order to make any progress, someone at some point is going to have to do some work either alone or in a small group, outside of the "everyone" that you speak of. The next step from that is putting the work/research/etc onto the wiki to get feedback. Flat out rejecting and putting down that work is not conducive to encouraging others to also do the same.
[shaners]I’m asking you, in particular right now, (and anyone, in general) to respect that we had reasons for our ideas, we tried to document them well, and trying to improve the community website experience for everyone in the community (now and in the near term future) with this proposal.
tantek__shaners, re: "i’m only speaking for myself.".You're not, you're speaking as one of the leaders of this community. Everything you say here sets an example.
tantek__I'm going to also put an aside here and say that discussing things like this would be great for HWC PDX instead of a separate meeting. if you couldn't wait til next Wed, do it this Wed
[tfg4k]gregorlove: I'm working on it. I have a few domains registered and a vps but i haven't set it up yet. I think this project sounds supercool though and would like to help
[tfg4k]gregorlove: Who do you guys use for hosting? Eg: i have a few tk domains and personal .me domain registered, i have a cheap ubuntu vps with nothing but a LAMP stack on it at the moment, would you guys recommend using something like Known or trying to set up a self-hosted alternative on my own?
bearaaronpk yes, it dives right into the bulk of the issue. I would also suggest that some of the "Why"s have negative examples to show the motivation for change (when it can)
gRegorLove[tfg4k]: There's quite a variety of platforms and hosting we use, not a monoculture, so it depends on what you want to do on your site. We try to document our experiences on the wiki. Our bot Loqi can help by asking questions.
LoqiWeb hosting can be the primary regular cost in maintaining an IndieWeb site; this page lists several options from free on up depending on your publishing needs, like a static, shared, private, or dedicated server https://indiewebcamp.com/hosting
[shaners]tfg4k: Here in the channel, we have a bot named Loqi. You can ask it questions like “What is hosting?” and if we have a page on the wiki about it, ...
LoqiWeb hosting can be the primary regular cost in maintaining an IndieWeb site; this page lists several options from free on up depending on your publishing needs, like a static, shared, private, or dedicated server https://indiewebcamp.com/hosting
aaronpkcan anyone else take a stab at writing that? most of that discussion happened during https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders and should be somewhat documented in the IRC logs from that day
gRegorLove[tfg4k]: We try to focus on user experience and use-cases too, rather than "plumbing." So usually we'd ask something like "what's the next thing you want to do with or add to your personal site?"
xtof@bear @aaronpk bonjour from Paris & merci for those first karmas - good resources to get started. Currently sketching a first carte-de-visite - will learn how to use irc and set up the small identicon. Going to sleep now. CU and keep on the good work.
[kevinmarks] Quiet weekend
Loqi aaronpk: Zegnat left you a message 6 hours, 52 minutes ago: In case nobody else noticed it: it seems like wiki usernames with a space in them (that is: personal URLs with a slash) are not turned into links correctly in This Week in the IndieWeb. See “Earthbound.io blog”. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-19/line/1466362177790
christophe.ducamp.me edited /Main_Page-fr (+4126) "[fr: update translation of Main_Page]" (view diff)
@AlexSchleber The Economist reporting on Decentralized Web #DWebSummit! >> Reweaving the web http://www.economist.com/news/business/21700642-slew-startups-trying-decentralise-online-world-reweaving-web #indieweb https://twitter.com/AlexSchleber/status/744766415027208192/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/744766415027208192)
@linux_everyday https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth protocol. #linux_everyday (twitter.com/_/status/744794096766595072)
@jkphl 🌞 Exciting week ahead: #IndieWeb Hack Day, @CoderDojoNBG, meeting @maddesigns @PatrickLobacher @asciidisco @marcthiele(?) Let's do this! :) (twitter.com/_/status/744795168813940736)
Ruxton the starts of my attempts at implementing a webention endpoint in my rails app https://gist.github.com/Ruxton/000fe3d21c9515a161eb2c5311953a84
Jeena Thready is really great! http://thready.notenoughneon.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2Fmusic-artwork
tantek http://www.economist.com/news/business/21700642-slew-startups-trying-decentralise-online-world-reweaving-web : "IndieWeb allows people to maintain information they want to share with the world without using centralised social networks."
@LukasRosenstock "Decentralized Web Summit" - @schnarfed has a nice summary of this event: https://snarfed.org/2016-06-11_decentralized-web-summit #decentralization #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/744877985526878208)
@ChrisAldrich Why the examples on http://indiewebcamp.com are great: How to start a movement http://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movement#t-99497 (twitter.com/_/status/744904672540925953)
aaronparecki.com edited /indieweb.org (+6818) "document subdomains and their motivations and intended uses" (view diff)
aaronpk Good morning #indiewebcamp! Over the weekend, http://veganstraightedge.com and http://brennannovak.com and I worked on brainstorming and documenting plans for moving to indieweb.org including some interesting fun subdomains. Much of the motivation is to help newcomers more easily get involved in the community, and hopefully try to remove some of our current "inessential weirdnesses."
@kevinmarks "IndieWeb allows ppl to maintain info they want to share with the world without using centralised social networks" http://www.economist.com/news/business/21700642-slew-startups-trying-decentralise-online-world-reweaving-web (twitter.com/_/status/744947817278382080)
tantek.com edited /indieweb.org (+718) "document at least a few General Issues with a citation to extract / expand inline much more in detail later" (view diff)
gRegorLove Re: https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org#chat.indieweb.org I think we decided to just use /dev for now, only split of wordpress if the volume necessitates it
@xtof_fr @CharlesNepote Serais heureux de parler #wikification avec toi Occuper un sous-domaine #FRA http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org https://twitter.com/xtof_fr/status/744987410568724480/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/744987410568724480)
[shaners] tantek: for people.indieweb.org, no one is proposing building an Enterprise Information Superhighway CRM™. We are proposing building a simple to use form with the common fields/properties that people are already writing up by hand in the wiki. (Name, url, irc nickname, photo, timezone, etc). This would serve as a simple way to create a “profile” on the indieweb site/s. (bc we already have profiles on the wiki, they’re just not the most
gregorlove.com edited /indieweb.org (+177) "/* Brainstorming */ note on /wordpress chat" (view diff)
bear it's hard to figure out where to start, that's why we are always eager for new folks to look at /Getting_Started :)