#indieweb 2016-10-30

2016-10-30 UTC
userXYZ, mlncn, singpolyma, mlncn_, KartikPrabhu, snarfed, wolftune and shiflett joined the channel
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GWG How does ownyourgram work?
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miklb GWG from what I can tell is it scrapes InstaGram and uses micropub to post to your own site with a link to the InstaGram post
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miklb Iv'e used it a few times, but since they changed the timeline, I've gotten away from using IG.
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GWG It was the Micropub I wanted to confirm.
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miklb yes that part I'm sure of, *how* it does it I'm not sure about.
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TheGillies Log test
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TheGillies Why don't the wiki pages have talk pages?
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[kevinmarks] Because we talk in here
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@sys_adm_ama @dasnuf Toll zusammengefasst ? Solange diese Indieweb-Sache eher was für die Nerds ist, wird sie weiter Verwirrung stiften @halbesachenblog (twitter.com/_/status/792651142387888128)
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@halbesachenblog @sys_adm_ama @dasnuf geht indieweb Googlen. (twitter.com/_/status/792651460337098752)
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@sl007 @sys_adm_ama @dasnuf @halbesachenblog ??? wieso für Nerds? Kommt nächstes Wochenende: https://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin ? tickets for free. (twitter.com/_/status/792684724305133568)
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@sl007 @sys_adm_ama @dasnuf @halbesachenblog auch gut: http://sebastiangreger.net/2016/09/takeaways-indiewebcamp-brighton-2016/ (twitter.com/_/status/792684848695705600)
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sl007 TheGillies: What do you mean exactly by talk pages?
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sl007 when is Berlin
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Loqi what
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sl007 when is IWC Berlin
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Loqi what
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sl007 note to me: Improve Loqi with https://github.com/redaktor/nlp_compromise [WIP]
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Zegnat sl007, a talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:IndieWeb
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Zegnat They don’t seem to be enabled on indieweb
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Zegnat And that is probably because we talk in here (as kevinmarks said) and because we want to have discussions take place on the actual wiki pages themselves
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sl007 Zegnat: I see. What is "own discussion" then on top, e.g. https://indieweb.org/User_talk:Sebastianlasse.de ?
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Zegnat I guess talk hasn’t been disabled for user pages. aaronpk would know more.
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WubTheCaptain Assuming I'll never visit a conference/gathering, what is this place?
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WubTheCaptain I came here while trying to think beyond "Cool URIs don't change" for URI (URL) design
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WubTheCaptain Then I found out IndieWebify.Me, which I thought to be deprecated advice
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sknebel a place to talk about all related things :)
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sknebel While we have gatherings, the IndieWeb is *not* primarily a conference/meetup series, but a community
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WubTheCaptain I was previously in another medium-to-large sized web-related channel here on freenode and they didn't seem to grasp the concepts of advanced topics such as accessibility and JSON-LD
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WubTheCaptain Am I in the right place?
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Zegnat You might be, WubTheCaptain, though JSON-LD is not liked very much around here ;)
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WubTheCaptain Zegnat: Could you elaborate?
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WubTheCaptain It actually surprises me a little that you say that, if IndieWebify.Me says to use microformats
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Zegnat JSON-LD often adds redundant data to your HTML. If you already have the data and are presenting it to your visitor, why copy it into hidden meta data? Instead we would recommend adding microformats to make the data you offer human visitors also computer accessible.
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Zegnat Why would IndieWebify.Me be deprecated?
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WubTheCaptain Well, for example, Google dropped the suggestion to use Microdata in favor of JSON-LD. You can use one-line <link> to a .jsonld file to convey the computer accessible message, and that does not require editing your HTML at all. It is data format agnostic.
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WubTheCaptain Microdata was never made a CR by W3C
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WubTheCaptain Meanwhile RDF and JSON-LD are both CRs or so?
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WubTheCaptain RDFa
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WubTheCaptain Isn't Microdata itself the hidden metadata hidden into HTML? I can understand some standardized things like rel="license" which are in the WHATWG spec
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WubTheCaptain For other consideration, Google also dropped using rel="me" in search results
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Zegnat Wait, you are talking microdata, but we are talking microformats
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WubTheCaptain Oh, can sometimes confuse those, yes
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Zegnat Microformats are a 11 year old standard: http://microformats.org
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WubTheCaptain I actually did both at a time, right now I stripped it all and might consider moving to JSON-LD soon
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WubTheCaptain But yeah, Microdata is really ugly
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WubTheCaptain But the suggestion to use microformats is not fully standardized, e.g. many rel attributes
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WubTheCaptain And thus it doesn't really validate
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sknebel JSON-LD isn't used by much either, as far as I know
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WubTheCaptain Yep, it's new
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WubTheCaptain But e.g. Google uses it in search results and recommends it over RDFa and Microdata
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WubTheCaptain About a year or two ago they recommended Microdata when JSON-LD wasn't known
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WubTheCaptain I like the Schema.org language though to convey more meaning to computers though, with few quirks/bugs in some places
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Zegnat Nothing on IndieWeb is build for SEO or search engines though, I think, so it doesn’t really matter what Google recommends.
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Zegnat And microformats are definitely standardised. h-card/h-entry are examples of pretty strict standarisation
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Zegnat And new W3C Social Web WG standards are also getting based on microformats, e.g. https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Micropub
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WubTheCaptain I am also curious how one would do Content-Negotiation on nginx, or if Apache's mod_negotiation is the only sensible way to do it
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WubTheCaptain While TCN has an experimental RFC, I don't think it was widely adopted so I don't technically need it
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Zegnat Hmm, I am not sure if anyone here is using content-negotition for anything. sknebel?
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Zegnat What is content negotiation?
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Loqi conneg is short for HTTP Content Negotiation, a method by which a browser or other web client can request content of various types from a web server, and depending on what is requested, and what the server supports, it tries to provide the best it can https://indieweb.org/Content_Negotiation
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WubTheCaptain Zegnat: HTTP supports "Accept" and "Accept-Lang" headers (in example) to serve the right language or file format based on client's request.
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Zegnat I know what it is, I wanted to know if we had a wiki page ;) Loqi will query the wiki for all “what is [keyword]” questions
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WubTheCaptain I have bots on ignore
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sknebel you can check headers in nginx config files and e.g. adjust the request filename through that
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sknebel I've seen that for serving webp images to newer browsers
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Zegnat That might be a problem in this channel. We use Loqi for a lot of things. Querying the wiki, adding content to the wiki, giving messages to people who are offline
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WubTheCaptain Yeah, you can do that. In fact I do that for WebP files already, but it would be tedious to do manually for every page. e.g. index.html.en, index.html.es
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WubTheCaptain Or other-page.html.en
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WubTheCaptain Side-note: I've also noticed that common advice is to use (recursive) "if" for WebP serving, when the file extension should be mapped wiith ngx_http_map_module
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WubTheCaptain with*
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sknebel you don't have to encode it for every individual file, you could just check if <filename>.en/.es exists and handle it with global rules
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sknebel but you'd probably have to special-case all languages
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WubTheCaptain Yeah, something like that. I haven't thought about it for a month though, so maybe I confused myself with requirements of TCN. And well, nginx doesn't handle the 406 Not Acceptable response anyway (Apache does)...
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WubTheCaptain I'
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WubTheCaptain I've never used Apache, by the way.
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WubTheCaptain as in as a system administrator/webmaster
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sknebel hm, seems like there is no way to parse the accept-lang header in nginx cleanly, so doing anything more complex than checking just the first sent language seems quite difficult
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WubTheCaptain I thought of maybe using some Perl script with nginx or OpenBSD httpd to do the content negotiation
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sknebel sure, adding a dynamic compontent always helps. there are also quite powerful ways to extend nginx with lua, but I haven't tried those yet
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sknebel (afk, lunch)
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WubTheCaptain s/CR/Rec/
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rhiaro I'm probably late the party, but it was two-clicks-two-seconds easy to add a letsencrypt cert to my dreamhost account :O https://rhiaro.co.uk/2016/10/https-dream
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rhiaro What do I do with the rest of the 3 hours 58 seconds I have left in the time slot i put aside for setting this up?!
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Zegnat That’s enough time to add SSL to another (3*60*60+58)/2=5429 websites, rhiaro. Go forth! ;)
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rhiaro I don't think I can afford that many domains
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WubTheCaptain Sorry for nitpicking, but for future reference SSL is insecure. While the term is a commonly interexchanged with TLS, I still cringe every time I hear someone talking about "SSL" or "SSL/TLS certificates".
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rhiaro hm, dreamhost calls it ssl in their control panel
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WubTheCaptain Well regardless, the proper terms to use are TLS (when referring to the encryption layer in HTTPS) and X.509 certificates (when referring to the certificates used for authentication in HTTPS and elsewhere)
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WubTheCaptain Just thought to point it out once in this channel, I'm new
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rhiaro I knew that somewhere deep down
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Zegnat Most panels will call it SSL, and several sellers are also sticking to SSL as the name, e.g. Symantec.
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WubTheCaptain I've seen a shift from "SSL" to "SSL/TLS" mostly in the common, with professionals using "TLS". Not comparing any person here to the example.
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Zegnat DigiCert also calls it SSL Cert, apparently. I am not sure I have seen a big CA sell it as “SSL/TLS” yet.
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Zegnat I wonder how we list it on the wiki.
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Zegnat What is TLS?
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Loqi HTTPS is an abbreviation for Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure, a protocol for secure communication, supported by web servers (like Apache & nginx) and browsers https://indieweb.org/TLS
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rhiaro What is SSL?
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Loqi HTTPS is an abbreviation for Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure, a protocol for secure communication, supported by web servers (like Apache & nginx) and browsers https://indieweb.org/ssl
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Zegnat Ah, right, we link everything to HTTPS
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sl007 Zegnat: regarding SSL : as an authority don't use OCR [ger] : https://www.heise.de/security/meldung/Zertifikats-Klau-Fatale-Sehschwaeche-bei-Comodo-3354229.html
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Zegnat sl007: that is actually a pretty funny as far as weaknesses go
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@calum_ryan A Handmade Web: proposal of how to see through the corporate web to the web as it once was, a web in the making. #MozFest #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/792766006653554688)
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aaronpk WubTheCaptain: do you have a personal web site? That's the primary topic this channel is about
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GWG Good day
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aaronpk what is welcoming?
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Loqi Welcoming is how we as a community welcome new members to our community https://indieweb.org/welcoming
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aaronpk for future reference Zegnat sknebel ^^
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Zegnat Aah, good one, thanks aaronpk!
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Zegnat Though I think he was really looking for something different
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[kevinmarks] Didn't rhiaro solve the content negotiation for json-ld thing?
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@francisclarke Wonder if news of @vine's demise will give a boost to the #IndieWeb movement? https://indieweb.org/ https://indieweb.org/ #socialmedia (twitter.com/_/status/792812710689898496)
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@calum_ryan Exhausted after packed full weekend at 1st #MozFest London, look forward to planning a proposal for 2017 on #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/792819714342916096)
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sl007 aaronpk: I see a problem in the spec. for MF2 parsing for urls : It does not really give a meaning to "rel". Let's say (for example) I have two Microformats, one h-card and one h-x-app and same URL is rel="me" in the h-card but rel="author" in the h-x-app - then the parser is lost. While we can compare the URL to the "rel" array we can't be sure which one is belonging to which mf.
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sl007 Proposed backwards compatible fix :
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sl007 parse the "rel"-arrays for each mf additional to "url"
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KartikPrabhu rel is supposed to be global page scoped
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: ChrisAldrich left you a message 2 days ago: Thanks for the heads up on the broken POSSE html.
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aaronpk sorry what? is this a microformats2 parsing thing? is this in context of indieauth or something?
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sl007 well yes - I would parse the hCards for "me"
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KartikPrabhu this seems like mf2 parsing thing better move to #microformats
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sl007 KartikPrahbu: that does not prevent us from specifying an enhancement for mf parsing. But ok, I see: #microformats
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KartikPrabhu enhancement for what purpose? indieauth?
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KartikPrabhu in any case, rel values are for things that are scoped to the whole page. So in your example above the h-x-app should use p-author not rel-author if it is supposed to be scoped only to the h-x-app
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sl007 ok, aaronpk and KartikPrahbu: For h-x-app I would suggest the following properties then which I could not find : "p-author", "u-license", "u-content-repository" and "u-code-repository" …
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KartikPrabhu p-author is standard. What are you using the others for? as in who consumes these new properties?
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KartikPrabhu you can always use u-x-license the *-x-* is for experimental properties, which is also why it is in h-x-app
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sl007 KartikPrahbu: I am really not sure about the scope, http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq#What_about_Scope.3F
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Loqi rel-tag-faq
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KartikPrabhu sl007: this is really getting into mf2 stuff so is more appropriate for the microformats channel if you'd like to move there
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sl007 ok
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KartikPrabhu what is rel?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel" yet. Would you like to create it?
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KartikPrabhu interesting. does anyone remember where the whole "rel is page scoped" stuff is documented?
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KevinMarks It's in HTML5, but we should update the microformats wiki
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KevinMarks I think it's discussed in h-entry?
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KartikPrabhu what is h-entry?
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Loqi h-entry is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up blog posts on web sites https://indieweb.org/h-entry
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: please update the microformats wiki if you know the HTML5 spec ref
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KevinMarks1 this is what i was thinking of: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#What_about_rel_bookmark
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML/H...
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KartikPrabhu aah ok
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KartikPrabhu !tell sl007 for rel being page-scoped see answer to this: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#What_about_rel_bookmark
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML/H...
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KevinMarks1 where was the rel confusion? I missed some of the thread there?
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KevinMarks1 there is a lot of handwaving in the html5 spec about rel scope
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KevinMarks1 "The license keyword indicates that the referenced document provides the copyright license terms under which the main content of the current document is provided. This specification does not specify how to distinguish between the main content of a document and content that is not deemed to be part of that main content. The distinction should be made clear to the user."
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KevinMarks1 "For a and area elements, the author keyword indicates that the referenced document provides further information about the author of the nearest article element ancestor of the element defining the hyperlink, if there is one, or of the page as a whole, otherwise."
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KevinMarks1 "The bookmark keyword gives a permalink for the nearest ancestor article element of the linking element in question, or of the section the linking element is most closely associated with, if there are no ancestor article elements."
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KevinMarks1 in practice, using a u- inside an h- is much clearer
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KevinMarks1 Ian was clearly trying to document how stuff was amrked up, but there isn't really a clear parsing rule there.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks1: see: https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-10-30#t1477860614320000
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