#indieweb 2016-11-21

2016-11-21 UTC
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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@ChrisAldrich How I share what I'm @reading to my @WordPress blog http://boffosocko.com/2016/11/20/owning-my-online-reading-status-updates/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/800578294982774784)
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Zegnat Good morning indieweb!
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cweiske hiho
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petermolnar !tell aaronpk I left a comment for that guy, dunno if he proceeded
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske ben_thatmustbeme, how is your pubsub hub implementation going?
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ben_thatmustbeme Not bad. Got a bit distracted and started working on inkstone again. I have a very basic framework right now
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cweiske what is inkstone?
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Loqi InkStone (formerly MobilePub) is a web app for posting various items to your website using micropub https://indieweb.org/inkstone
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ben_thatmustbeme I think I can do photos/video with inkstone
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ben_thatmustbeme But it's going to take some trickery
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Zegnat petermolnar, any idea re 2016-11-30 yet?
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petermolnar not yet
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Zegnat I am available, one of my colleagues would like to tag along, and if sebsel comes a long that makes 3 dutchies.
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[sebsel] I'm still available too!
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Zegnat I think cmal and jboy might be interested too, though not sure how to get their attention right now
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Zegnat !tell cmal,jboy We are looking at a possible HWC on 2016-11-30 somewhere at Schiphol. Interested?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat (Did multi tells work now? sknebel? aaronpk?)
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Zegnat !tell yobj We are looking at a possible HWC on 2016-11-30 somewhere at Schiphol. Interested?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat That's the nickname on /irc-people
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indieweb
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tantek good morning ben_thatmustbeme
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KevinMarks Morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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ben_thatmustbeme why are you so chipper today Loqi?
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snarfed https://en.blog.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/blog-domains-are-now-available-to-everyone/
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sknebel hm, I saw some complaint about their registration process a few days back
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sknebel (pre-registration then?)
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sknebel rereading, they didn't properly announce what names were reserved/"premium": http://chrisschidle.com/the-dot-blog-bait-and-switch/ , but remotely popular names being expensive was to be expected
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KevinMarks I miss woodwind.xyz
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snarfed KevinMarks: email kyle!
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snarfed or wm his homepage, tweet at him, etc
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aaronpk oh no his home page is down too
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Loqi aaronpk: petermolnar left you a message 8 hours, 45 minutes ago: I left a comment for that guy, dunno if he proceeded
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snarfed oh wow true. surprised he didn't have any monitoring.
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KevinMarks I should fix the instance I spun up, really.
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Loqi yea
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GWG Afternoon
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tantek what is monitoring?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "monitoring" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek snarfed, do you have any suggestions for monitoring? e.g. what do you use for monitoring your site(s)?
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snarfed tantek: sure, lots! depends on what you're monitoring. apps will need much more than sites. here's e.g. bridgy's: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/#user-content-monitoring
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snarfed for a simple web site, http://pingdom.com/ 's free tier is good. https://www.scalyr.com/ 's probes are too if they have a free tier. also jetpack's built in monitoring for wordpress.
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snarfed will wikify
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snarfed monitoring is automated collection of a site or app's vital stats, e.g. is it up or down, how much traffic is it getting, what's its average latency, etc.
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tantek timeout
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snarfed aww
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tantek what is monitoring?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "monitoring" yet. Would you like to create it?
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snarfed monitoring is automated collection of a site or app's vital stats, e.g. is it up or down, how much traffic is it getting, what's its average latency, etc.
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks People posting svg's with js in to svgur.com and mailing me like they solved a problem rather than causing one.
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snarfed wrote up https://indieweb.org/monitoring . feel free to revise/organize. cc bear
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bear :eyes:
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@rhiaro Decentralisation Considered Harmful https://rhiaro.co.uk/2016/11/decentralisation-considered-harmful #indieweb @SocialWebWG (twitter.com/_/status/800781742781054976)
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro++ nice post with good points
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Loqi rhiaro has 58 karma in this channel (248 overall)
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rhiaro thanks KartikPrabhu
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rhiaro you can blame tantek :)
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KartikPrabhu I am sure he'll gladly accept it
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro: why are there 2 "Prev" links on your post?
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: it looks like one of them is within that post type, the other is prev by all types
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rhiaro KartikPrabhu: one ... uh yeah that
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rhiaro cos I log a lot of stuff, it lets you skip back through articles if you don't want that to be interrupted by all my food posts
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KartikPrabhu hmmm... that wasn't obvious from the links
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rhiaro Many things about my site are not obvious :P Are the icons loading for you?
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KartikPrabhu but it is an interesting pattern
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ben_thatmustbeme it wasn't obvious to me until i saw the icon changed when i went back one and got a food post
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro: yeah I can see the icon on the second "Prev" link, but couldn't immediately guess what it meat
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KartikPrabhu meant*
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rhiaro Noted, thanks
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rhiaro I need to do something about the icons anyway, they're pretty screwed up cross devices
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rhiaro I will put titles on the links, for a start
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KartikPrabhu that's kind of why I try not to "replace words with icons"
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro: yeah titles will help too
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gRegorLove Good afternoon, indieweb
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cweiske pubsub: what prevents a third party from sending a forged "you have been unsubscribed" ("hub.mode=denied") request to my client?
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rhiaro breaking news cweiske: pubsub is called websub now. Also I think there's a verification step for unsubscriptions, too
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rhiaro oh wait, that's *from* the hub
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cweiske yes :)
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gRegorLove websub? Aw, I liked the rhyme.
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cweiske https://indieweb.org/PubSubHubbub has not been renamed yet
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aaronpk cweiske: https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues/36#issuecomment-261563397
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gRegorLove Separate /pubsub page for now
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cweiske aaronpk, thanks
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aaronpk made it to the spec as: https://w3c.github.io/pubsub/index.html#subscription-parameter-details
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cweiske I need to update my local spec copy then
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aaronpk might want to wait a coupel days til we publish the next draft
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aaronpk going to try for publishing on thursday
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cweiske I've never seen this capability URL document before
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cweiske https://www.w3.org/TR/capability-urls/
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Loqi [Jeni Tennison] Good Practices for Capability URLs
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cweiske haha: "Within the Second Life API,"
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Loqi hehe
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cweiske "3.1.3 Websites without Accounts" is an interesting idea
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cweiske that's persona without any personal data at all
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cweiske OH NO NOW I NEED TO RENAME phubb :/
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aaronpk lol!
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aaronpk whubb?
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cweiske now that not even "hubbub" is part of the name anymore, the double b is also out
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cweiske whub
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cweiske a shame
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cweiske not a name
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cweiske i'll keep it at phubb.
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cweiske the "ph" in the names is also for PHP, so changing the first letter would not work
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cweiske phinde, phubb, phorkie
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cweiske phing, pholien
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rhiaro phling
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rhiaro Like flinging content around
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[sebsel] phebsub? ‘w’ and ‘ph’ are not so different…
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cweiske better not :)
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cweiske websub: is it valid to have the callback URL contain a "hub.mode=notification" parameter? that way I'd always have that parameter, and the hub only overwrites it value for "subscribe", "unsubscribe" and "denied"
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cweiske "Existing parameters with names that overlap with those used by verification requests will not be overwritten"
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cweiske h,
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cweiske so: no.
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aaronpk you can use the GET vs POST to check whether it's a notification or verification
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cweiske yep
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cweiske that's what I'm implementing now
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aaronpk i thought you already had a working hub? are you building a new one?
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cweiske no, i'm adding push to phinde
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aaronpk aha
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cweiske so we can get live search for chat.indieweb.org
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cweiske whenever you implement push for the chat log pages :)
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cweiske and apart from it it means I don't have to manually tell search.cweiske.de my new blog posts
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cweiske because that happens then automatically
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aaronpk WebSub and indexing go well together :)
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cweiske I just fear that this will increase traffic quite a lot
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cweiske when I get pinged for every chat line
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cweiske does telegram support fat pings?
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snarfed1 yeah you definitely want to decouple recrawling from websub pings :P
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snarfed1 think "nudge," not "trigger"
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cweiske this would make a good use case for diffed fat pings
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cweiske s/would make/makes/
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cweiske the s// replacements are broken with Loqi
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tantek what is a fat ping?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "fat ping" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is a thin ping?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/thin_ping
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tantek what is a ping?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ping" yet. Would you like to create it?
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KevinMarks The chat is a list of things with timestamps, maps to a feed pretty well
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tantek rhiaro: re: titles on links - does not help for touch devices
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KevinMarks Long press shows title, but it is cumbersome
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cweiske KevinMarks, yes, but that's not the issue. when the search engine gets pinged that the "today" page has been updated, and there are 1000 chat line links on it, all of them have to be crawled
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tantek cweiske++ for the ph* naming convention - clever!
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Loqi cweiske has 58 karma in this channel (66 overall)
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tantek what is websub?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "websub" yet. Would you like to create it?
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cweiske so best would be if the hub would send only the new content in the fat ping
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rhiaro tantek: good point
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cweiske thus "diffed fat ping"
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tantek finishes catches up on the logs, goes back to eating his salad
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KevinMarks Well, to do that it has to remember what it sent last time
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tantek WebSub is the new name of [[PubSub]]
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks So keep state for each subscriber
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cweiske yes, which is why fat pings are hard to implement on the hub side
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KevinMarks Atom wasn't a great universal api, but it did handle lists with timestamps
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snarfed atom++
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Loqi atom has 1 karma in this channel (2 overall)
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tantek except for that whole requiring artificial precision of seconds thing
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gRegorLove There's now /pubsub and /PubSub btw
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cweiske no. "3.3 Date Constructs" in the atom spec allows normal second resolution in datetimes
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cweiske Example Date constructs:
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cweiske <updated>2003-12-13T18:30:02Z</updated>
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cweiske Date values SHOULD be as accurate as possible.
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cweiske nothing wrong with that
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tantek no. requiring seconds precision when it is unavailable is wrong
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tantek it is always wrong to mandate precision in a format
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tantek "as accurate as possible" yes - but when it is not possible or not available, then it is HARMFUL to pretend to have accuracy you do not
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tantek unfortunately Atom makes that harmful mistake by *requiring* seconds precision instead of being content with just minutes
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cweiske please give an example when having "00" as seconds is harmful
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tantek when you don't know what the exact seconds are
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tantek e.g. most of my blog posts before IWC Brighton
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tantek like nearly all of my posts before
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tantek the :00 in the seconds is FALSE
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tantek and there just to placate Atom validators :P
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cweiske wrong/false is not necessarily harmful. which is why I asked for an example when it's harmful
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cweiske harmful is when the plane crashes into a building because the seconds were "00" instead of "12", but I fail to construct such a connection
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tantek false precision is always harmful because
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tantek certainty, time date math etc.
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tantek in general it's a bad policy to publish things as accurate/true when they are not
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tantek the harms may be small in particular instances, but they are still there, thus specs MUST avoid making such artificial precision requirements
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KartikPrabhu wow! "plane crash"-argument fallacy ?
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tantek cweiske: more here if you're really interested wikipedia false precision
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tantek KartikPrabhu: indeed. reductio-ad-plane-crashum
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tantek or something
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tantek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision
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KevinMarks Irc would be an interesting case, given out of order arrival and clock skew
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cweiske the wikipedia page and all references pages do not talk about timing precision
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cweiske the moment you realize that half of our work is already done .. in a git branch you already forgot about
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cweiske and rediscovered just before committing the new code
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tantek how close was the second implementation to the first?
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cweiske different. I then used php arrays for config, now I use the database
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cweiske but link extraction is already done in the other branch
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cweiske so I can use it
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tantek nice
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