#indieweb 2017-04-11

2017-04-11 UTC
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Owning My Feed Reading" by miklb on 2017-04-11 https://miklb.com/owning-my-feed-reading/
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aaronpk nice
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miklb think I"m going to write a little plugin to add u-photo to the featured image in WP
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tantek miklb that's not what u-photo nor featured mean
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tantek what is the actual use-case you're trying to solve?
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miklb dude…
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tantek what is featured?
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Loqi featured is a proposed mf2 property (typically as u-featured) for h-entry that indicates a representative image for a primarily textual post https://indieweb.org/featured
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miklb you realize sometimes you are a buzz kill tantek?
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[chrisaldrich] miklb, if there were a plugin for that, I think based on my use cases, I would probably use it.
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tantek are buzzkills worse sooner or later?
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[chrisaldrich] I was actually about to go into my theme and add it manually for just that thing.
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tantek chrisaldrich what visible useful effect would putting u-photo on your featured photos achieve for you?
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[chrisaldrich] It's a better use than one of the other indieweb bits that's throwing a spurious u-photo on my gravatar photo.
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: specifically I'd use it in conjunction with Bridgy Publish for POSSE to Twitter.
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tantek if your gravatar photo is inside your h-card then it is correct for it to be marked up with u-photo, not spurious
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tantek re: Bridgy Publish for POSSE to Twitter. ok that's more interesting
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tantek the answer may not be to abuse u-photo, but rather, to look at what Bridgy Publish should do with u-featured
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miklb which was my use case. WordPress doesn't allow you to edit the markup of the "Featured Image".
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, I'd call it spurious because it's done automatically within wordpress most of whose themes don't respect mf2 at all and thus breaks (or makes or makes difficult using) many indieweb tools
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miklb so an option when you set the image or just adding it, I hadn't thought that far through
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snarfed background in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/691 . arguably the problem is that the h-entry (and content, etc) in question is too broad and includes h-cards (with u-photo) that aren't actually part of the content
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[chrisaldrich] amen snarfed. And that problem isn't easily tackled because it's so entrenched.
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tantek chrisaldrich I'm afraid that doesn't make much sense. if something is setting u-photo on your gravatar (whether plugin or theme) it should also be setting the h-card
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aaronpk wait, but if your author photo is inside an h-card, it won't appear to be a photo of the h-entry
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tantek exactly
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GWG tantek, it is still hard to get a consistent way to do that with what we've got to work with.
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snarfed true! wish we'd captured example markup or mf2 in that issue.
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aaronpk unless... is bridgy literally looking for any u-photo inside an h-entry rather than following mf2 parsing?
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snarfed nah it's definitely after parsing mf2, not before
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aaronpk okay *whew*
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tantek GWG, better to add no markup rather than inconsistent markup that pollutes things
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[chrisaldrich] I've started testing a bunch of the common (even annual) WordPress themes to see how easy/simple it is to port them to proper mf2 and many of them, though okay, are really atrocious.
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tantek I would think that would be obvious from how WordPress core vs. themes screwup classic "hentry"
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miklb All I know is if I include a photo in a post and add `u-photo` it shows up in a tweet. If I don't it, doesn't. I wasn't aware of any other mf2 to use. Wordpress doesn't allow for you to add your own classes when you add the "featured image", which is very useful for being able to display different sizes in different contexts.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I think some of the programmatic markup is actually doing the right things, it's just the nonstandard (and arbitrary ways) in which wordpress themes tend to add their markup which confound things terribly.
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GWG Might be worth a major rewrite of WordPress UF2 as not just a plugin, but an include for themes
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[chrisaldrich] I've noticed that sempress and independent publisher both do that, but to varying degrees based on what else is manually included in the other portions of the themes.
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GWG 'Add this file and it can give you helper functionality."
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GWG You've heard me get annoyed about how much the content block is overloaded.
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[chrisaldrich] It would be nice to have as comprehensive an UF2 plugin include as possible and then hand off the other smaller bits (and document what those are) so that more themes could quickly and easily support mf2 closer to as good a standard as WordPress core will allow.
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snarfed hrm, not so sure. "just add this file" leads to the current state of 10 different wordpress plugins to get a reasonable indieweb setup
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snarfed (and the inevitable compatibility woes)
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GWG snarfed, the just add this file would be a developer thing
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GWG But if Core won't help, then we need something. What it is can be discussed.
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[chrisaldrich] or maybe filters to remove the improper core WordPress mf2 and replace it properly, though I don't think anyone has attempted that....
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miklb GWG I've been toying with whether I should just open source the theme I'm using, or create an actual theme that can just be installed.
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GWG On that note, I have another obligation
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snarfed eh. more separately maintained projects and files leads to more different combinations that all skew and fall out of compatibility. i vote for consolidation. :P
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GWG Maybe I should just go starter theme again
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gRegorLove Question for WP: Can a filter be used to hook into post_class (or similar) to remove the mf1 that core adds?
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GWG snarfed, I just got another step closer with the last PR Webmentions got
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tantek snarfed, or would it make sense for Bridgy Publish to Twitter to consider including the u-featured if any, if no u-photo is found?
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GWG Yes, it can
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snarfed tantek: sure!
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tantek so that miklb, chrisaldrich wouldn't feel compelled to markup something as a u-photo that is not actually a photo post
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tantek I feel like a lot of markup mess happens because this kind of mal-incentive
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tantek specifically driven by search engines / SEO etc.
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GWG You always discuss things when I have to go
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tantek ok I'll let it go for tonight
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tantek be safe GWG
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miklb tantek what does that mean?
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GWG tantek, no need, I will read the log
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miklb "driven by search engines and SEO?
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tantek miklb - after I said I'll let it go you ask me a question :P
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GWG I just get disappointed
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tantek milkb oh my goodness don't get me started on all the nonsense markup people jam into their HTML because of *rumors* of reading SEO tea leaves etc.
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miklb tantek well, I took that statement personally. As if me wanting to include an image with a POSSE as being spammy
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tantek no no not that at all
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[chrisaldrich] I definitely vote for trying to make things work the "proper" way rather than to add yet another bandaid onto the mass of baling wire.
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tantek ^^^ that
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tantek miklb including an image in a tweet serves multiple purposes (is overloaded), both as a "photo" or as a "preview" of what the article is about
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tantek that's the challenge here, not any kind of SEO/spam with Twitter in particular
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miklb just seems that is what you jumped at 1st. I didn't bring it up
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[chrisaldrich] some of it is the fight between open standards and what one must do in reality to obtain the functionality one wants, and the feedback loop of what's in the wild informing the evolution of the standard.
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tantek miklb - it was a bit of a jump yes, regarding (ab)using markup to achieve a specific effect with particular consuming code (Bridgy in this case).
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tantek part of a larger historical pattern that does not mean you in particular
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tantek nor was any such mal-intent on your part implied
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miklb Just seems rather than "you are doing it wrong" and saying things are spammy would be easier to say, "wow, these are some real world use cases, how can we make it better and easier to follow", but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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gRegorLove I'm going to be updating a friend's WordPress and will try out using a filter to remove any messed up core mf1, so I can put mf2 in the theme directly.
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tantek miklb yes I get how the point about spam was miscommunicated, apologies
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tantek miklb, had to deal with a bunch of spam this morning, apologies again, had it a bit too much on the mind
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miklb gRegorLove that's a lot of what GWG did with mf2_s https://github.com/dshanske/mf2_s/blob/master/inc/template-tags.php I used that as a road map for my own site. Obviously still working out the kinks.
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miklb tantek understandable
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tantek goes to open a bridgy issue for discussion
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miklb weird. How did my blog post turn into a reply on Twitter?
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miklb https://twitter.com/miklb/status/851589518763454465
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@miklb @cleverdevil I’ve been a stalwart _RSS_ (Atom) reader since I started blogging 12 years ago. Back then, in the dark ages, it was the only way to easily… (twitter.com/_/status/851589518763454465)
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miklb still has so much to learn
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aaronpk there's a u-in-reply-to link in your post
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aaronpk to cleverdevil's post
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miklb hmm. interesting
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aaronpk "Today he relased a plugin on GitHub..."
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aaronpk so that turned your whole blog post into a reply to that post
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miklb so it shows up as a webmention and as a reply to the tweet. interesting.
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miklb and didn't posse the post to Twitter.
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aaronpk if your intent was not to make your blog post a reply to cleverdevil's post, then just don't add the "u-in-reply-to" class on the link
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miklb well, I didn't realize the whole text would show up as a reply, but I definitely thought the post from my site would just be a POSSE to twitter.
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aaronpk IMO that post isn't really a reply, so you can just link to cleverdevil's post instead of marking up that link with u-in-reply-to
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miklb understood.
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tantek miklb, chrisaldrich, does this issue capture the use-case and intent? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/741
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aaronpk then it will look like a normal blog post that will be POSSEd to twitter like you expect, and cleverdevil will still get a webmention, it will just be a "mention of" the post instead of a reply
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I'll take a look at it later and add any necessary thoughts, but I'm being pulled away for dinner...
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tantek dinner++
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Loqi dinner has 1 karma in this channel (2 overall)
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miklb aaronpk duly noted.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I'm sure it's well after sunset there, but chag Pesach sameach!
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aaronpk lol not many fans of dinner
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[chrisaldrich] Today's a more formal than usual dinner too... ?
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tantek Mastodon << http://mashable.com/2017/04/05/mastodon-wont-survive/
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Loqi ok, I added "http://mashable.com/2017/04/05/mastodon-wont-survive/" to the "See Also" section of /Mastodon
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tantek what is Peach
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Loqi Peach is a social network app that allows you to share notes, photos, gifs, chat with friends, and several other things by way of magic words [1] https://indieweb.org/Peach
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[kevinmarks] That was an extra stupid one from ulanoff
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tantek which part?
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tantek seemed to point out lots of actual UX problems
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tantek Facebook << https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604082/we-need-more-alternatives-to-facebook/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604082/we-need-more-alternatives-to-facebook/" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook
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[cleverdevil] !tell aaronpk have you considered having OwnYourSwarm delay it's publish to Micropub end points to increase odds that associated photos are actually finished uploading?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk It wasn't a good critique of the distributedness or federation, which is actually the point because he encountered so many problems before even being able to talk about that aspect of it
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tantek good reason to put UX first
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tantek because otherwise people don't even get to the other stuff
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aaronpk [cleverdevil]: I could do that. Are you noticing more missed photos?
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tantek what is DistroKid
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "DistroKid" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[cleverdevil] Yup, aaronpk, I notice it probably every third time I post a check in with a photo.
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[cleverdevil] Thinking that even a 30-60 second delay would do the trick.
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aaronpk Wow!
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aaronpk Yeah I bet 30 seconds would catch most of the cases
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aaronpk I can't think of a situation where a 30 second delay would really affect the experience of having it on my site either
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miklb [cleverdevil] quick question. I'm not seeing how to add your plugin to news. I'm sure I'm overlooking something obvious
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[cleverdevil] Ah, sorry, I didn't put in any instructions.
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[cleverdevil] miklb you basically just treat it like any other "app" and clone the repo into the nextcloud/apps directory, alongside the news app.
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miklb ah, I was just thinking that while on my back porch.
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[cleverdevil] Just pushed an update to the README, thanks for reminding me to actually explain how to use this thing ?
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[cleverdevil] Thinking about tinkering around with the Plex webhooks to make a "Now Watching" feature for my site...
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[cleverdevil] What is Plex?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Plex" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[cleverdevil] What are webhooks?
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Loqi A webhook is a mechanism for notifying a server about updates to some content in realtime by making an HTTP request https://indieweb.org/webhooks
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[cleverdevil] Plex is a platform for indexing, converting, playing, sharing, and streaming your media from local or cloud storage. https://www.plex.tv
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Loqi ok
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[cleverdevil] Plex < https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/articles/115002267687-Webhooks
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[cleverdevil] Plex << https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/articles/115002267687-Webhooks
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Loqi ok, I added "https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/articles/115002267687-Webhooks" to the "See Also" section of /Plex
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miklb [cleverdevil]++
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Loqi cleverdevil has 19 karma in this channel (24 overall)
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miklb this is going to be so good, but opening up a can of worms for how I want WP to interact with incoming micropub
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[cleverdevil] ?
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[cleverdevil] Now that I've got my feed reader in a good spot, I am really wishing I had something like this for my Twitter timeline ?
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[cleverdevil] Its sort of a pain to react to content on Twitter by doing the dance of copying the permalink, opening up Quill or my Known site, and then replying/reposting.
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[cleverdevil] Wish it was just integrated.
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snarfed [cleverdevil]: yup! a bit of prior art: https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android ... but you're probably way ahead of me
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Easy IndieWeb interactions on Android
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[cleverdevil] Nice.
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[cleverdevil] My understanding is that Twitter clients are really hard to create at this point, due to Twitter's API crackdown.
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[cleverdevil] It'd be nice if I had a Nextcloud app for my feed reading and interactions.
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miklb [cleverdevil] yes I saw someone post a link to service to turn Twitter accounts into feeds…
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snarfed heh, yup, https://twitter-atom.appspot.com/
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[cleverdevil] I am pretty spoiled by things like Tweetbot and Twitterific.
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snarfed (works around the twitter api restrictions a bit)
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[cleverdevil] I think my best hope is that manton's Micro.blog turns out really well, and I can just embed his timeline into my Nextcloud.
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[cleverdevil] You know, now that I've got my reader working nicely, I am gonna give snarfed's solution a try.
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snarfed gl!
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miklb I'm totally going to want to pass micropub to the post-kinds plugin in WP. I'm pretty sure GWG has mentioned that being on the road map.
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[cleverdevil] Hmm, I think I'd like to create a `/stream` page on my site that aggregates my Bookmarks, Likes, Statuses, and Replies.
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[cleverdevil] Known allows filtering down like so: https://cleverdevil.io/content/bookmarkedpages/statusupdates
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[cleverdevil] But, that's fugly.
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[cleverdevil] I should be able to do a RewriteRule to mask this, right?
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[cleverdevil] shakes off the dusty `.htaccess` parts of his brain
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Loqi +1
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GWG miklb, back and saw your note on Micropub. The Post Kinds plugin does it now, but I want to separate the code inside the plugin to be more clear.
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miklb does it now how?
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[cleverdevil] Bleh, no luck, my brain is mushy. Time for bed.
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[cleverdevil] Night all!
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miklb good night
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Loqi buenas noches
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GWG miklb, it maps properties to kinds.
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GWG It can do more
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miklb hmm. I passed a like using [cleverdevil]'s /news -> Quill and it posted as a regular note. Maybe I'm doing something wrong
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GWG I will be doing some updates there to better follow post type discovery.
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GWG It doesn't have like right now. I just noticed.
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miklb ah. bookmark didn't seem to do anything either, but I'm just now starting to test micropub stuff out.
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GWG miklb, https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/issues/81
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GWG I have an issue to improve it
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miklb ?
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GWG miklb, I am trying to define kinds better, including how to map them to mf2 properties.
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miklb GWG I hope you don't take my thinking out loud as expectations of you doing all of this. I hope to be able to contribute now that I have better idea of a workflow I'd like to have.
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jeremycherfas Miklb++ for https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-04-11/1491871257901000
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Loqi miklb has 18 karma in this channel (20 overall)
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Loqi [miklb] Just seems rather than "you are doing it wrong" and saying things are spammy would be easier to say, "wow, these are some real world use cases, how can we make it better and easier to follow", but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯...
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jeremycherfas Not intended as a slight on tantek, only that doing it right is hard.
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/851733764753375232
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@kevinmarks “What Web Page Structure Reveals on News Quality” by @filloux https://mondaynote.com/what-web-page-structure-reveals-on-news-quality-67b845e230db looks like research for a new http://microformats.org/wiki/hnews (twitter.com/_/status/851733764753375232)
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@jkphl ? Homebrew Website Club Nuremberg tomorrow — potentially the last one w/ Isi for a long time. Who's in? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-04-12-homebrew-website-club #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/851736275266789376)
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@IndieWebCampDE ? Morgen möglicherweise letzter Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg mit Isi an Bord für eine lange Zeit. Wer ist dabei? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-04-12-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/851736501574664192)
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[kevinmarks] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_software_and_protocols_for_distributed_social_networking
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Zegnat Do any of those protocols actually warrant watching, in your opinion, [kevinmarks]? Appart from maybe OStatus?
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[kevinmarks] I was more intruiged by the lack of indieweb as a line item TBH
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[kevinmarks] OStatus is an odd one - this is a bit sad: https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/
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[kevinmarks] empirically, it seems Webfinger can be replaced by {$domain}/@{$username}
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[kevinmarks] though that doesn't quite apply to gnusocial instances which don't have the @
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[kevinmarks] reading https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/wiki/Workflow it does seem very cumbersome compared to having a URL
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Zegnat Isn’t Mastodon compatible with gnu-social? If the way you find an identity is different between those two then they will always have to rely on a secondary system like WebFinger.
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[kevinmarks] I'd forgotten what a mess Salmon was. Wow
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[kevinmarks] webfinger has about 3 too many layers of indirection
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Zegnat twtxt seems to have the right idea: “The URL pointing to this file is your identity, your account.” - https://github.com/buckket/twtxt
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Zegnat That wiki page was pretty fun to click around in, [kevinmarks]. Though a lot of the URLs were dead for me.
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[kevinmarks] you could replace it with a single rel on the homepage <link rel="userpath" template="http://www.lobstermonster.org/@{nickname}" >
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cweiske HTML PARSING AGIN!
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cweiske which you do not need for webfinger
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[kevinmarks] no, you need XML parsing
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[kevinmarks] and to know 2 magic URLs
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[kevinmarks] a Link: header would work too, like with webmention or micropub
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cweiske "magic" is .well-known
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cweiske and JSON is supported in webfinger
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[kevinmarks] and webfinger might want you to parse XML or JSON or both as you have the LRDD and the XRD and they might be
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[kevinmarks] so now you have 3 problems
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cweiske compared to a html5 parser?
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Zegnat HTML parsing isn’t really a solved problem in every programming language though, so that’s also a problem.
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[kevinmarks] as it's .well-known/host-meta or /.well-known/webfinger
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[kevinmarks] as I said, you don't need an html parser, you cna use a link header
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Zegnat Many specs define the link header as an alternative to some HTML with a rel="" though, [kevinmarks]. So any implementation only relying on the header might be missing out on information.
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[kevinmarks] yes, we've already iterated on this with micropub and webfinger, and have it working
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[kevinmarks] irony is that https://github.com/webjay/sgNodeMapper is still more reliable than calling webfinger, despite it not being touched in years
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[kevinmarks] s/webfinger/webmention/
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[kevinmarks] https://toot.lmorchard.com/users/lmorchard/updates/795
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Loqi [Les Orchard ✅?️???] People still fretting about "owning" their username on every instance. <morpheus>What if I told you that you never owned your username on the birdsite in the first place?</morpheus>...
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[kevinmarks] https://toot.lmorchard.com/users/lmorchard/updates/796
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Loqi [Les Orchard ✅?️???] People still fretting about "owning" their username on every instance. <morpheus>What if I told you that you never owned your username on the birdsite in the first place?</morpheus>...
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cweiske [kevinmarks], we'll if in 5 years we can say the same about native API access vs. micropub when MP is not adopted
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Zegnat Mastodon does seem to have UX down to a T. Very clear where reactions are coming from etc. Basically exactly what IndieWeb implementations need to get the established microblogging people onboard.
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[kevinmarks] reading these protocols I do get a big "what were we thinking?"
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[kevinmarks] why is Salmon such a rigmarole?
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[kevinmarks] there must have been a reason that they didn't just use a post at a url
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[kevinmarks] I assume this came from being focused on fat pings, and thus needing a way to verify without fetching and escalated from there.
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@kevinmarks @kosamari sounds like http://indieweb.org to me - come talk to us https://indieweb.org/irc/today - some of us have static sites, some dynamic (twitter.com/_/status/851780558820700161)
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@kevinmarks @kosamari you might find Hugo congenial - you write text files and it mungs them into a static site quickly. https://indieweb.org/hugo (twitter.com/_/status/851781087416156160)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kosamari/status/851772824477978624
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@kosamari Who has written "How to make blog system" ? Like not just how to install, but how to make simple one. (twitter.com/_/status/851772824477978624)
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@kevinmarks Reminding myself how the Salmon protocol works by reading https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/wiki/Workflow #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/851784291696558083/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/851784291696558083)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Reminding myself how the Salmon protocol works by reading https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/wiki/Workflow #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2017-04-11 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/reminding-myself-how-the-salmon-protocol-works-by-reading-communityostatuswikiworkflow
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aaronpk From what I can tell, Salmon came out of the idea that people used feed readers and had an account at the feed reader, and readers allowed commenting within them. Salmon then provides a way to transmit those comments back to the author. The comments never lived at their own URL tho, which is why you have the signatures
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aaronpk also even with signatures, Salmon is more likely to be spammed than Webmention so :shrug:
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Zegnat There is an extension for RSS for feed commenting as well. But I don’t actually remember any feed readers that truly implemented commenting :/
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KevinMarks1 Well, google reader allowed comments eventually. Also sites had comment forms
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aaronpk sites with comment forms are direct comments, how does that have anything to do with salmon?
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singpolyma aaronpk: also, salmon allows for "private replies" if you believe those are possible, because there doesn't need to be a public URL for the reply
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singpolyma but they invented their own crypto, so it's probably a hot mess
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aaronpk was it ever deployed in practice?
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singpolyma salmon? of course. it powers gnu social, mastodon, friendica, etc
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aaronpk no i mean private replies
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singpolyma if you set your instance to private with gnu social (I think mastodon also has this) you can still reply to other people, yeah
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aaronpk well at least we have private comments with webmention now
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aaronpk what is private webmention
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Loqi The Private Webmention protocol is an extension to Webmention that supports sending and verifying Webmentions for posts that require access control https://indieweb.org/private-webmention
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miklb interesting discussion about feed readers and commenting considering what cleverdevil shared for nextcloud/news + Quill(micropub)
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singpolyma aaronpk: So, reading private webmention spec. Why not just use the token that is sent along with webmention as the Bearer directly, instead of having an extra discovery + exchange dance?
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/private-webmention#why_is_there_an_extra_step_of_exchanging_an_auth_code_for_an_access_token
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miklb adactio++
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Loqi adactio has 33 karma in this channel (36 overall)
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miklb http://patternsday.com checkout the mf2
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Loqi Patterns Day
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miklb not to mention the sweet use of grid on the h1
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singpolyma aaronpk: hmm. but, if the initial token is unprotected it can still be exchanged for an access token
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singpolyma so what extra protection does the step give you?
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aaronpk the auth code is short-lived, so reduces the risk if it's leaked after writing it to a log file
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aaronpk as someone sending auth codes, I know I would be much more comfortable sending an unsolicited code that only lasts 60 seconds vs sending an access token that has no expiration
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singpolyma for sure, it needs to be short-lived. but do they need it for longer than that? it's just being used for verifying the webmention
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aaronpk the idea is you can tie it in to an existing auth management that you might be using, so you may generate a long-lived access token for that person
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aaronpk there's also this: https://indieweb.org/private-webmention#Check_for_existing_access_tokens
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aaronpk where the receiver can skip the code exchange if they get a second webmention from the same "realm"
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miklb bridgy says it can't find the tweet to reply to. Guess I need to understand why it's not being inserted http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmiklb.com%2F1382-2%2F
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KartikPrabhu miklb: your in-reply-to does not have a url
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KartikPrabhu u-url
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miklb right, I just don't understand why the IndieWeb WP plugins aren't adding it. I have it in the post meta.
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KartikPrabhu can't help you with that one :)
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miklb heh, me neither. The more I do, the less I understand where one of the plugins ends and another starts. :-)
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aaronpk merge all the plugins!
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4nn9yRgo.jpg
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KartikPrabhu that would make it more confusing I think
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KartikPrabhu small code that does one thing is better
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miklb I'm leaning to that camp. I'd rather one monolithic plugin than having to guess which one is doing what, so I can dig into the code. Too many times I've read through one, to find it was a different plugin handling that aspect
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb ?
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[cleverdevil] My Nextcloud News plugin has the attention of the Nextcloud project, and I'm doing some explaining about IndieWeb here - https://github.com/cleverdevil/news_indieweb/issues/1#issuecomment-293296274
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[cleverdevil] Feel free to jump in and help educate.
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tantek miklb++
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Loqi miklb has 19 karma in this channel (21 overall)
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tantek especially "The more I do, the less I understand where one of the plugins ends and another starts." ?
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tantek (sympathizing)
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tantek hey GWG, perhaps you can use miklb's feedback to help convince pfefferle?
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KevinMarks ben_thatmustbeme: did you see https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/965#issuecomment-292710311
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GWG tantek, I am taking the Semantic Linkbacks merge one piece at a time.
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GWG All the plugins are becoming more modular like so they could be distributed together
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: i have not yet, was not even aware you could do the show-more thing in mastodon
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KevinMarks It's called cw - content warning. Gnusocial instances are a but tetchy about how it was done
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KevinMarks If he did the details
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KevinMarks Summary thing that would transfer
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tantek what is a content warning?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "content warning" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek KevinMarks: that's a reasonable brainstorm / start
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tantek but "content warning" seems like a strong enough semantic (especially something you'd want servers / clients to interop on) that it's worth documenting as its own thing
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aaronpk what is a spoiler?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "spoiler" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk ive seen similar things for spoiler warnings
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KevinMarks Yes, there is some messiness there
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tantek aaronpk not quite the same
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aaronpk not quite, but similar mechanism
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KevinMarks What is see more
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "see more" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek maybe
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tantek also VERY different from see more
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tantek which is often automated truncation
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tantek (e.g. in FB, IG, etc.)
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ben_thatmustbeme well, i have seen mechanisms like that before, but it was clearly not the entire post, it would block out sections
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ben_thatmustbeme and thus wasn't a summary vs content thing at all
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KevinMarks It's like see more in classic blogging
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aaronpk yeah for sure, sometimes spoiler warnings black out just certain words at a time
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tantek especially since now we have multiple examples of content warning right? (at least Twitter and Mastodon)
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tantek exactly
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aaronpk people on slack have started to use threads for that
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KevinMarks And is implemented like that as summary/content in atom
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tantek gah, let's not jump to plumbing please
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aaronpk posting a placeholder message saying the topic of the spoiler, and then putting all the content in a thread for it
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tantek this is worth documenting as a user feature
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KevinMarks Though they make the title the content
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aaronpk that way you have to click on the message to expand it to see the spoilers
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tantek aaronpk, I think there is a fundamentally different semantic between spoiler and content warning
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aaronpk i wasn't trying to say they are the same
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KevinMarks Yes,
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KevinMarks Though people are using it on mastodon for joke reveals too
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tantek finds http://trigger-warning-guide.tumblr.com/triggers
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tantek and https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/09/twitter-tests-a-feature-that-warns-users-of-profiles-with-potentially-sensitive-content/
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tantek what is sensitive content
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sensitive content" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek finds "possibly_sensitive" in API docs: https://dev.twitter.com/overview/api/tweets
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tantek more Twitter docs for "sensitive content": https://support.twitter.com/articles/20069937 and https://support.twitter.com/articles/20169199
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tantek maybe report sensitive content is like /report_abuse ?
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@ChrisAldrich Another good reason to be on the #indieweb: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets aimed at UA passenger abuse https://twitter.com/TheNextWeb/status/851759766556864513 (twitter.com/_/status/851859670331510784)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Another good reason to be on the #indieweb: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets aimed at UA passenger abuse https://twitter.com/TheNextWeb/status/851759766556864513" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-04-11 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/another-good-reason-to-be-on-the-indieweb-twitter-allegedly
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tantek whoa
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@posthuman Still very strong pref for @indiewebcamp but #mastodon #tusky UI/UX is inflection point for fractal federated birdn… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/851867701605580800 (twitter.com/_/status/851867701605580800)
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gRegorLove Uh. https://twitter.com/Jay_Beecher/status/851568600653737984
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@Jay_Beecher Twitter responds to my tweet asking why they are deleting negative tweets about United Airlines...by DELETING my question lol @socialdiva https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9FhHPRWsAAdzGk.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/851568600653737984)
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gRegorLove Tweet immediately before in his timeline: https://twitter.com/Jay_Beecher/status/851567550337101824
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@Jay_Beecher @Twitter @Support Why are you deleting negative tweets about @united Airlines, including mine?? How much have they paid you? https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/C9FgKCaXYAAHu2e.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/851567550337101824)
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aaronpk i think people are confusing "deleting" with "hiding from timeline"
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tantek if so you should be able to cite the "deleted" tweet permalinks and have them archived in the logs. just saying ;)
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tantek or rather, to prove deletion, cite a archive.org copy of the deleted tweet, and then the actual tweet permalink 404
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gRegorLove I suspect a technical glitch or yeah, just no understanding Twitter. The first tweet Jay claims was deleted is actually there a couple times, slightly differently worded
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gRegorLove Yeah, it'd be nice if people shared archive.org links instead of screenshots :)
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: updated mastodon PR for p-summary / e-content on content warning posts
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KevinMarks Do you have an example to parse?
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sknebel gRegorLove: hard to share archive.org links for a site that has a disallow: * in robots.txt ;)
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gRegorLove http://web.archive.org/web/20170411185257/https:/twitter.com/Jay_Beecher/status/851558446336012288
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sknebel weird, I just tried a twitter link and got the error
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gRegorLove But definitely agree archive.org isn't something the average Twitter user thinks about or should be bothered to use
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/mastodon.dev/@broberts
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ben_thatmustbeme the links are all broken as I just did a wget -r, but you can figure out @broberts/1 etc
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ben_thatmustbeme for the posts themselves
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sknebel and now the same link works in archive.org... weird
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KevinMarks There's a site that stashes twitter links
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KevinMarks It's archive.is
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KevinMarks Still get "show more" in the name
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[terminalpixel] Hey, anyone know what is the preferred way to markup an rsvp the indieweb and microformats wiki seem to differ: `<span class="p-rsvp">yes</span>` vs `<data class="p-rsvp" value="yes">is going</data>`
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tantek both work!
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tantek both options are valid that is. depends on what text you want to display (or already display) in your RSVP posts
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tantek we should have both examples in both places though
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Loqi definitely
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[terminalpixel] Yeah with why you would use one over the other
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Zegnat [terminalpixel]: there are a few standard words that most parsers agree on, like "yes". So you want parsers to see "yes" when they look for the rsvp property in your microformats.
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Zegnat But if you don’t want to write the word yes in your post, you can fix that by using the DATA element
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tantek right, there is a discrete set of RSVP values
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tantek if you happen to use one in your text then you can just span mark it up
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tantek but otherwise (usually?) you'll want to do something like the data markup because you'll have your own wording (or a non-English equivalent etc.)
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Zegnat p-* classes will normally take the plain text content of the tag they are on. But the parsing is slightly different for DATA elements, where they prefer the value attribute. That way you can have hidden meta data as equivalent to written words.
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gRegorLove I'v usually used the <data> version, e.g. https://gregorlove.com/2017/04/im-attending-indieweb-summit-2017/
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Zegnat tantek++ for raising the non-English option!
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Loqi tantek has 212 karma in this channel (331 overall)
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] I’m attending IndieWeb Summit 2017, too!
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[terminalpixel] Yeah I understood there were the 4 different values for rsvp. Hadn't seen the data element used much before though ?
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Zegnat Looks like sebsel uses it for his Dutch RSVP posts: https://seblog.nl/2017/04/05/1/reply
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Seb gaat naar dit evenement.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Why we built Known" by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-12-08 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/why-we-built-known
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Loqi [superfeedr] "A short note about web standards from your friends at Known" by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-10-13 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/a-short-note-about-web-standards-from-your-friends-at
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[chrisaldrich] Superfeedr is SO fond of those two articles... ^^
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aaronpk if only there was some unique ID to deduplicate them ...
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tantek good example of the fallacy of the "unique IDs will solve everything" assumption
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aaronpk Loqi has a filter to ignore the same URL more than once a day
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aaronpk but i'm not sure what's causing superfeedr to send the ping again years later
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tantek yep
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[chrisaldrich] I've noticed those two about once every month or so... BenWerd must be using one of his bots to remind us occasionally. ?
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tantek it's not every ~6 months is it? like every time there's a DST change?
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miklb snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 258 karma in this channel (264 overall)
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miklb u-featured in bridgy now.
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tantek wow that was fast
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miklb I think it would be better to add the class through bridgy-publish plugin rather than *another* plugin. Will work on that tonight and send PR
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doubleloop Is there a way to mark up a u-repost-of so as to do the retweet-with-my-own-comment-added type of tweet?
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doubleloop Posting via brid.gy
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miklb doubleloop https://brid.gy/about#quote-tweet <- like that?
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tantek bridgy supports quote tweets AFAIK
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doubleloop miklb: Ah perfect, thanks
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doubleloop I'm using the 'repost' post kind in the WP Post Kinds plugin, but I needed to tweak the markup a little for bridgy.
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miklb doubleloop the quote type was added to support the quote-tweet in that plugin
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doubleloop I'll try the quote post kind
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miklb s/quote type/quote kind/
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doubleloop I kind of got it to work. But I had to hack includes/views/kind.php to include an anchor tag when the post kind is a quote.
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doubleloop Without that, bridgy didn't seem to pick it up as a quote-tweet.
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doubleloop I filled in the URL Post Property, not sure if anything else needs doing there.
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miklb I haven't tested it with the latest changes, but will look at it tonight
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miklb might be similar to my reply issue I was having
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doubleloop The post looks pretty funny: https://doubleloop.net/2017/04/11/230/
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Loqi [neil] Siren: Tracker-inspired tidalcycles interface filling gap between livecoding performance + algorithmic composition https://t.co/m4LASoF7un — TidalCycles (@tidalcycles) April 11, 2017 Woah. What is this I don’t even...
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miklb doubleloop you can have a kind_views/ directory in your theme and the plugin will look there first.then you can have kind-quote.php, kind-bookmark.php etc for different displays in your theme
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doubleloop I am quoting that tweet like crazy!
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miklb so you don't have to edit the plugin's files directly
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doubleloop miklb: Ah, brilliant. That's great.
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miklb or even your own generic kind.php. Yes, GWG set that up, it's very handy
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doubleloop Final thing with that: although the tweet definitely looks like a quote-tweet in my timeline, I don't seem to show up in the list of people that retweeted the tweet.
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doubleloop And I still have the option to retweet it in the twitter interface.
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doubleloop (Not that it matters... just thought I'd point it out.)
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miklb interesting
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miklb though I feel like I've seen that using Tweetbot
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doubleloop I'd like to add an extension to koreader (https://github.com/koreader/koreader) where you could post passages that you highlight as quotes to a micropub endpoint
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doubleloop I have an ebook reader that I flashed koreader onto, and I'd love to get the bits I highlight sent to my site as quotes
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miklb I see it can export highlights to evernote, so I'm think there is a way
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miklb I'd think
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doubleloop Yep
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doubleloop So the kind_views folder only works in the main theme, not in the child theme folder, correct?
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miklb doubleloop that I have not tested
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miklb or do I recall the recursion when it looks for the files.
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GWG I have not tested. It should follow the standard search. It uses WordPress's template locator.
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doubleloop https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/blob/1d1e8b168c119f138d434e578df44f50c148acad/includes/class-kind-view.php#L27
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doubleloop It uses get_template_directory(), which just looks in the parent theme - https://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/get_template_directory
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doubleloop I could just make my own copy of sempress, rather than using a child theme.
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doubleloop I don't know Wordpress too well, but I get the impression child themes are supposed to be more for css overrides than code overrides?
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doubleloop Oh maybe not -> https://codex.wordpress.org/Child_Themes#Template_Files
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snarfed doubleloop: also https://jetpack.com/support/custom-css/
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Loqi Custom CSS
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GWG They built custom CSS and into the last version of Core, I think
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gRegorLove !tell doubleloop https://doubleloop.net/2017/04/11/230/ looks like a /quotation not /repost, so don't think it would show up as a RT on Twitter
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [neil] Siren: Tracker-inspired tidalcycles interface filling gap between livecoding performance + algorithmic composition https://t.co/m4LASoF7un — TidalCycles (@tidalcycles) April 11, 2017 Woah. What is this I don’t even...
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Or everyone could just adopt #indieweb principles of owning your content and syndicating elsewhere." by Scott Kingery on 2017-04-11 http://techlifeweb.com/15820-2/
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@TechLifeWeb Or everyone could just adopt #indieweb principles of owning your content and syndicating elsewhere. https://twitter.com/FastCompany/status/851386283226263552 (twitter.com/_/status/851945030516449280)
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