#indieweb 2017-07-17

2017-07-17 UTC
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tantek
good weekend #indieweb
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GWG
tantek: Weekend?
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@holden
If you want to keep your past around, fine. But don't do it b/c it's the default of a corp platform http://kinlane.com/2017/07/14/i-flushed-the-last-nine-years-of-my-facebook-profile/
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@holden
Like Audrey and Kin, I've been slowly deleting the footprint of my past, and I'm realizing we've been brainwashed into keeping this stuff.
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@holden
The fact so many of these tools make bulk deleting hard should scare the heck out of you. Why do you think they make it hard?
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@holden
@mathpunk And honestly socmed death is the great equalizer. At some point Twitter will die and it will all be gone anyway.
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tantek
what is socmed death
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "socmed death" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10p7
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tantek
socmed death is /site-death
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@mathpunk
@holden I'm finally getting to the point I can soon go #indieweb and host these dumb little half-poems myself. I think it's worth doing.
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prtksxna
tantek: The linked blog post (and the others on the blog) are very interesting too. Thanks for sharing.
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prtksxna
Whoa! I just discovered Google's bookmarking service - https://www.google.co.in/save/me?hl=en
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tantek
I think that article contains a lot of clues to future transitions for various indieweb efforts. From POSSEing, to purging all but the most recent posts.
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tantek
Kind of like treating social media silos as nothing more than an ephemeral RSS feed, with only the past year's worth of posts.
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prtksxna
I guess we'll eventually also need Archive on Own Site Delete on Silos - AOSDOS?
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tantek
it's more like the complement to backfill
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tantek
what is backfill
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Loqi
backfill is the action of importing all your past posts, typically from a social media silo, into your own site https://indieweb.org/backfill
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tantek
the post uses the word "cleaning" several times
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tantek
so perhaps it's as simple as that, social media cleaning
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prtksxna
Ah, I meant more like, when you're already POSSEing, you'd eventually want to clean that up by deleting on silos
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tantek
what is ephemeral
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Loqi
Expiring content is content that is only temporarily (ephemerally) relevant, and also part of a larger post, that can and should be (preferably automatically) removed once a particular datetime has passed (the expiration date) https://indieweb.org/ephemeral
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tantek
it sounds like we're talking about expiring POSSE copies
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prtksxna
Its not that the content is "temporarily (ephemerally) relevant", but that you don't want it to stick around for that long. I don't know, maybe the same thing.
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tantek
when indieweb sites are able to keep their own copies of both original posts and all (perhaps backfed) responses to those posts, then there is little reason to keep old posts around on silos
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tantek
one reason to keep POSSE copies may be for datetime-proof, e.g. you can prove you were the first person to use a hashtag or define a term on twitter
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tantek
although you could use archive.org for that too
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tantek
another reason is search discovery, that is, when someone happens to search a silo for something (e.g. a twitter hashtag search), to have them discover your public posts
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prtksxna
Right. Depends on how much silo search matters to you.
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tantek
yes, I expect the decision is personal
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tantek
if you build /onthisday functionality, then you don't need FB to tell you what you were doing a year (or more) ago
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prtksxna
Is there an example of a 'bookmark' post which also has multiple h-cites ie quotes from the article? I'd like to see both the presentation and the correct (mf2) markup to do this.
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tantek
however, your year or older posts that have *other* people tagged in them will show up in those other peoples's fb.com/onthisday - so it depends on whether you care about that or not
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prtksxna
likes the onthisday idea/functionality
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tantek
silo-quits << 2017-07-14 [http://kinlane.com/2017/07/14/i-flushed-the-last-nine-years-of-my-facebook-profile/ I Flushed The Last 9 Years Of My Facebook Profile] <blockquote>I flushed the the last 9 years of my Facebook profile over the last couple of days. Instead of deleting my account, I just cleaned up everything except what I have posted in 2017. In the future I will make it a yearly ritual to flush the previous year of my
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tantek
Facebook profile</blockquote>
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Loqi
ok, I added "2017-07-14 [http://kinlane.com/2017/07/14/i-flushed-the-last-nine-years-of-my-facebook-profile/ I Flushed The Last 9 Years Of My Facebook Profile] <blockquote>I flushed the the last 9 years of my Facebook profile over the last couple of days. Instead of deleting my account, I just cleaned up everything except what I have posted in 2017. In the future I will make it a yearly ritual to flush the previous year of my" to the "See Also" section of /silo-quits
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prtksxna
Need to consolidate 'See also' and 'See Also' on that page :/
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tantek
prtksxna: looks like the hashtag #DigitalCleanse has also been used for this sort of thing: https://indieweb.org/silo-quits#See_Also
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tantek
yup - consolidated :)
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prtksxna
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 221 karma in this channel (369 overall)
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tantek
what's a good way to politely reply to this? or is there a way? https://twitter.com/pgbovine/status/886685658017800203
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@pgbovine
I feel really old. I just learned that this was a thing https://indieweb.org -- I had just assumed everyone did this
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tantek
(see thread)
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prtksxna
tantek: I think they aren't able to understand the depth. The W3 specs and such. Maybe refute the assumption by pointing out that a lot of people prefer posting on other's sites (like twitter), without pointing out the irony, and then maybe a link to http://indieweb.org/building_blocks.
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tantek
prtksxna: this isn't the first time we've seen this response to the home page material by folks who have some knowledge of past similar trends / behaviors
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prtksxna
Maybe it deserves a page on the wiki (with good possible responses)? Such people are mostly supporters who don't know it?
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tantek
yes, that's a good positive assumption
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tantek
the challenge is that even the home page has that information "Beyond Blogging" right there
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tantek
so it's doubtful that a separate page would help, since even on the home page itself
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tantek
they didn't see it
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prtksxna
I meant a separate wiki page for us, when we encounter these people, and how best to deal with it :)
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tantek
yes, perhaps like an FAQ we can use
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@kevinmarks
@dzackgarza @pgbovine Well, it is that too - have a look at indiewebify.me then work through https://webmention.rocks/
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petermolnar
re longetivity: I started treating silos - with the exception of flickr, ironocally - as ephemeral mediums and deliberytely deleting most of my stuff after a few months
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petermolnar
no pesos, no posse
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petermolnar
just simply deleting
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petermolnar
I did a big FB and TW flush once; whatever was worth "archiving" went to my site, the rest deleted; it's outrageourly tedious by the way
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jeremycherfas
Good morning Indieweb
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jeremycherfas
Re https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-07-17/1500273067743000 I think there’s something to what he says about feeling old. It is easy to forget that there was a time before the socmed silos. As for the front page, I think it would be possible to make it more of an advocacy document, much as calumryan has been trying to do.
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Loqi
[tantek] (see thread)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "On a blog entitled "Pandemic", I suppose I should be proud to say I may have helped to "infect" it with some #Indieweb goodness?!" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-07-17 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/on-a-blog-entitled-pandemic-i-suppose-i-should-be
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jeremycherfas
Changing the order in which the different elements on that home page are presented might make a difference too. Might even be worth trying and A/B test.
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jeremycherfas
To me, and I am old, the big difference is in the tools. This is not your father’s geocities page …
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jeremycherfas
To me, the indieweb.org page is aimed squarely at Gen1.
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Zegnat
jeremycherfas, did you check out the homepage redesign session from IWS?
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jeremycherfas
No, only remembering Calum’s session at IWC Nurg
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jeremycherfas
And my own opinions. :))
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Buona fortunate con la sperimentazione. Se stai a Roma, forse ci incontriamo per sapere più di indieweb?" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-17 http://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/buona-fortunate-con-la-sperimentazione-se-stai-a-roma-forse
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Zegnat
Scott Jenson asked a lot of clever questions leading to new ideas about the homepage. I heartily recommend checking out that session on youtube.
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jeremycherfas
Will do! Thanks
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Lucaconti
I am the "Pandemic" You were talking about ;)
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Zegnat
prtksxna re https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-07-17/1500265607248000 : there is no limit to how you do the HTML of your post, if you want multiple h-cites just mark those up. The post becomes a bookmark when you add a u-bookmark-of, but that does not make bookmark posts any different from other posts. Write a post, have multiple h-cite marked up block
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Zegnat
quotes, then turn it into a bookmark by adding u-bookmark-of on 1 of those h-cites.
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Loqi
[prtksxna] Is there an example of a 'bookmark' post which also has multiple h-cites ie quotes from the article? I'd like to see both the presentation and the correct (mf2) markup to do this.
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jeremycherfas
Lucaconti: Welcome.
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Why we built Known" by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-12-08 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/why-we-built-known
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "A short note about web standards from your friends at Known" by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-10-13 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/a-short-note-about-web-standards-from-your-friends-at
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "The value of explaining yourself" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-13 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/the-value-of-explaining-yourself
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@ShaneHudson
@pgbovine @dzackgarza Indieweb is a community encouraging people to build their own sites, yes. But also develops t… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886954403852365826
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sknebel
shanehudson++
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Loqi
shanehudson has 14 karma in this channel (17 overall)
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Lucaconti
Is there a reason why I get "error" trying to retrieve some permalinks? This one does not work now http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2017/7/13/content-isnt-king
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sl007
Lucaconti - what error ? The link works for me.
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Zegnat
“retrieve” how?
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Lucaconti
I am talking about the Indieweb plugin for WordPress. Maybe it was a temporary error?
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Zegnat
I am not sure why an IndieWeb WP plugin would try and fetch that external page either, so not sure what your error was. The people in the #indieweb-wordpress channel might be better informed though :)
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sl007
or if it is this one https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb - raise an issue there
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Loqi
[indieweb] wordpress-indieweb: Helps you establish your IndieWeb identity by extending the user profile to provide rel-me and h-card fields. It also includes a bundled installer for a core set of IndieWeb-related plugins.
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sl007
Zegnat - the posters are nearly ready (IndieAuth is missing because I don't know the state of the naming ;) ) - could I use your pic with the tv streaming IWC CC0 ???
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Zegnat
Which one? The one where I took a picture of people waving at me during IWC Berlin?
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Lucaconti
ok, thank You @sl007
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Zegnat
sl007, if you are talking about the picture here https://twitter.com/martijnvdven/status/794903956199763973 , you have permission to use that freely :)
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@martijnvdven
Feeling apart of the #indieweb, watching @indiewebcamp Berlin! /cc @jkphl, feel free to add to the Flickr album! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwgQydJW8AEElpn.jpg
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sl007
Zegnat a tv screen near some fantasy books (would appear small)
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[miklb]
Lucaconti when you say retrieve, are you using the post-kinds plugin that has the post-properties box? https://cdn.miklb.com/Add_New_Post__Miklbs_Mindless_Ramblings__WordPress_2017-07-17_11-19-02.png
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Zegnat
Yes, sl007, that would be the picture from that tweet. Feel free to use it
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Zegnat
Featuring IWC Berlin, some of my favourite books, and birthday cards left over from my birthday in October
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sebsel
sl007 re the state of naming IndieAuth: it's IndieAuth.com that's in for a rename, but IndieAuth will still be called IndieAuth. The whole point is that IndieAuth != IndieAuth.com, hence the rename :)
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Lucaconti
@[miklb] bingo, yes :)
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Loqi
[aaronpk] Did I mention I actually need two names for this? ? * The service that users delegate their domain to (analogous to how choosing an OpenID provider used to be a thing, e.g. myopenid.com). This is used for authorization as well as authenticatio...
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sebsel
sl007 yes, that's about renaming IndieAuth.com
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sebsel
What do you describe on the poster? Linking Twitter via rel=me?
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sebsel
Because that's RelMeAuth, not IndieAuth ;)
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[miklb]
Lucaconti. OK! that retrieve tries to parse the page based on microformats, and if no mf2, fall back to some other elements. Without looking at the source of the link, it’s possible the plugin isn’t able to parse what is on the page. You can check with GWG in the #indieweb-wordpress channel for more details.
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sl007
sebsel for https://indieweb.org/2017/Dortmund ? beim CAMPFIRE Festival für Journalismus describing building blocks, will post proposals here …
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sebsel
sl007 is there a way to see a preview of the posters? :D
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sebsel
is really curious
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Zegnat
sl007: IndieAuth.com is not the IndieAuth protocol/building block. It is just one implementation of it (with an unfortunate name). Don’t confuse the two.
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sebsel
The whole IndieAuth vs IndieAuth.com IS very confusing at the moment, but that's why IndieAuth.com needs to get a rename.
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petermolnar
just take [kevinmark]'s advice and name it itme and canihaz
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sl007
Zegnat - but yes I know this very well because I sat down very long to write the node.js implementation which I demoed several times. The only thing is I need any URL for the posters …
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Zegnat
https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth sounds like the URL for IndieAuth
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[miklb]
I guess OwnMyAuth is out?
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sknebel
(heh, that page also is totally confused between IndieAuth and IndieAuth.com in places
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sebsel
yeah, that page needs work too.
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sknebel
sebsel: did you discuss what/how to restructure that?
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Zegnat
That’s why that page starts out with a little point about how IndieAuth and IndieAuth.com are separate things
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sebsel
sknebel not yet
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sknebel
(e.g. move everything IndieAuth.com related to /IndieAuth.com)
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sl007
btw - propsed iauth.me a while ago. Would that be to close?
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Zegnat
I wonder if it might just be better to advertise “web sign-in” instead of IndieAuth?
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sknebel
(ping aaronpk since we are talking about "his stuff")
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sknebel
what is web sign-in?
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Loqi
Web sign-in is signing in to websites using your personal web address (e.g https://indieweb.org/Web_sign-in
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sebsel
Web sign-in more the practice of 'use your domain, not your e-mail', not a protocol.
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sknebel
the link to the mf2 wiki etc describe RelMeAuth
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aaronpk
web sign-in is the general concept of using your domain as your identity, not a specific protocol
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Zegnat
Yes. Web sign-in is basically “the practice of logging in with your own URL”. Then they describe RelMeAuth as a way to do this. IndieAuth then adds a step for authorisation endpoint discovery before doing RelMeAuth.
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aaronpk
i'd call OpenID (1) web sign-in
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sknebel
that probably should be called out clearer on both wikis. e.g. if I follow the first link in "Details" I get a description of RelMeAuth and no indication that the second one is something completely different
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Zegnat
We need some sort of executive decision on what canonically should be called IndieAuth. Is it http://indieweb.org/IndieAuthProtocol ? Is RelMeAuth in anyway part of it, or is that just a feature of indieauth.com?
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Zegnat
Maybe move this to -meta. It is not a bad idea to clean-up that Wiki page
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@ChrisAldrich
@presspatron Have you looked into supporting rel="payment" microformat? https://indieweb.org/payment I can see use for https://indieweb.org/payment
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@ChrisAldrich
@presspatron Have you looked into supporting rel="payment" microformat? https://indieweb.org/payment I can see use for https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_for_Journalism
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@voxpelli
@manton2 The sharing type of posts are so interesting. I assume you've seen: https://indieweb.org/quotation ? I like eg. l… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886987531367133184
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sl007
et al. Zegnat sknebel aaronpk !tell sebsel - so I made some Origami and here are some proposals for posters for IWC Dortmund https://github.com/sebilasse/indieweb-origami
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Loqi
[sebilasse] indieweb-origami: proposals for indieweb posters, logos, CI
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aaronpk
whoa! this is amazing
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Zegnat
I like that origame. Though I don’t like using the exact same W from IWC/HWC for Websub, as it means just web in the other logos
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Zegnat
That webmention logo is rad
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sl007
thankyou! please take into account that these should be printed in A3 or A2 (e.g. regarding font size) and are not optimized for screen but for digital print
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sl007
Zegnat please let's track the "W" in an issue ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
heh, can we make the A in IA a circle at the top, will look like a key hole
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Zegnat
I wish I could check out all the images, but I have trouble finding the ones with a small file size and I am stuck on 3G tonight
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Zegnat
Filing issue re: W
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Zegnat
(Also: GitHub should display filesize on the folder display.)
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sl007
Yes, right. Also I did not embed the fonts for now. Do the fonts itself have to have a CC0 license ?
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Zegnat
If you want to embed them, they need to allow for embedding. Most fonts don’t need to be CC0 as you aren’t actually doing anything to the font files themselves.
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sl007
Zegnat - that's ok the. size is scary big, 396MB because of the Poster/img folder - creating a pdfOnly branch
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Zegnat
Nice, about to have dinner, but will comment on contents of the posters afterwards :)
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tantek
good day #indieweb
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sketchess
Good morning Loqi.
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sketchess
Good morning Indieweb.
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sketchess
o.O do I see right, you are working on flyers for the IWC?
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sl007
good day tantek - yep, made sketchess for Dortmund posters https://github.com/sebilasse/indieweb-origami
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Loqi
[sebilasse] indieweb-origami: proposals for indieweb posters, logos, CI
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@RedditAustin
https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/6nuzdt/building_the_indieweb_effaustin_meetup_monday/ Building the Indieweb - EFF-Austin Meetup - Monday, August 14th, 7:00pm @ Capital Factory #ATX
(twtr.io/1U14KV8UbcL)
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sketchess
Cutting words by " - " is not the smartes move. *thought*
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sl007
ok. Can u raise an issue ?
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sketchess
sure.....
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sketchess
a second
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sketchess
o.O that is a different set, I see....
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sketchess
How many different sets are be worked on?
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sketchess
But I could check yours too, if you like sl007. :)
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sl007
cool. made it for https://indieweb.org/2017/Dortmund ? CAMPFIRE - Festival for journalism - have to leave now …
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sl007
Yes, that is the poster folder in the repo (?). brb
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sketchess
I had trouble to put the words together first. For non native English speakers, it can be a not so nice read. And if someone has a handicap like me too, it can makes it even harder....
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sketchess
I use English every day and currently train without stopping. You might get my point. ;)
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sketchess
So let me have a check on the other stuff. xD
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sketchess
Is the poster finished yet?
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@sl007
@jkphl Eigentlich erstmal nix. Der Quellcode ist ja sichtbar. Ich bastele morgen mal. Hab auch Poster gemacht https://github.com/sebilasse/indieweb-origami
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sketchess
sl007 What size will the flyers have?
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sketchess
ah gone...
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Zegnat
!tell sl007 thanks for the small zipable branch. I’ll have a look and open issues for discussion.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sketchess
greetings Zegnat :)
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sketchess
welcome back
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sl007
sketchess Realized there is maybe no such word than "Poster" which means billboard in english. DIN A2 optimized but can be A3 …
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Loqi
sl007: Zegnat left you a message 3 minutes ago: thanks for the small zipable branch. I’ll have a look and open issues for discussion.
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sketchess
are the flyers not yours, sl007?
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@redditATXmobile
Building the Indieweb - EFF-Austin Meetup - Monday, August 14th, 7:00pm @ Capital Factory via /r/Austin https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/6nuzdt/building_the_indieweb_effaustin_meetup_monday/
(twtr.io/1U16gXvgY5L)
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sketchess
catching up on logs
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sketchess
nice fotos tihihihi
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tbbrown
hi. that's me speaking at the austin event
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Zegnat
I was just about to put herestomwiththeweather.com in the chat for context :D
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Zegnat
Also, hi Tom!
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tbbrown
hi. thanks.
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sketchess
nice to meet you
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tbbrown
likewise
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tbbrown
my current plan is to use woodwind.xyz to show how all the different pieces fit together. also plan to show off wordpress plugins, etc.
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sketchess
ah it is a meetup that does not happend yet..... interesting
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Zegnat
Are you hosting Woodwind yourself?
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tbbrown
no. using the hosted version
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tbbrown
maybe i should i try to host it myself?
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Zegnat
I am not using it personally, but I know it used to have some server problems. So if you are planning a talk around it you might be better of spinning up a copy yourself.
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Zegnat
Uptime seems to have been better of late, but I know some people here started selfhosting because of some uptime issues.
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tbbrown
ok. i have gotten a "fail whale" before but mostly good lately
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sketchess
another cms?
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Zegnat
sketchess: no, a reader you can use to subscribe to people’s websites to read them all in one place.
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Zegnat
What is a reader?
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Loqi
A reader (or indie reader) in the context of the indieweb is the portion/feature integrated into an indieweb site that provides a way to read content from other indieweb sites, possibly including posts from the current site as well https://indieweb.org/reader
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sketchess
ah like spider webs *figurative
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sketchess
fascinating
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sketchess
I wonder, how many websites are interwined by indieweb building blocks yet?
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sketchess
+t
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aaronpk
I know someone who had answered that question
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sketchess
lucky you
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aaronpk
what is indie map?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "indie map" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10p9
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Zegnat
http://www.indiemap.org/ - at least 2300 sites, sketchess, and that’s just what snarfed was able to find/crawl on his laptop
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Loqi
Indie Map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset. 2300 sites, 5.7M pages, 380GB HTML + mf2. Social graph API and interactive map...
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Zegnat
There are also a lot of WordPress sites with mf1 themes that are parsable for readers
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sketchess
I know how the map looks like. :)
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Zegnat
!tell sl007 I threw some ideas and comments in GitHub issues for the flyers. Really nice work though!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sketchess
Jep this it is....
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sketchess
Thanks for all the links. You are always very generous. xD
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aaronpk
indie map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset, made by {{snarfed}} and launched at IndieWeb Summit 2017 http://www.indiemap.org
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Loqi
Indie Map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset. 2300 sites, 5.7M pages, 380GB HTML + mf2. Social graph API and interactive map...
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sketchess
:) nice video and information, thanks again aaronpk...... you did a nice job snarfed :)
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snarfed
thanks!
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sketchess
Can't wait to see how a IWC is like.... xD
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sketchess
good nights sleep and beautiful dreams
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Loqi
goodnight!
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@sl007
@_shamani und falls ihr mal echte Menschen treffen wollt : https://indieweb.org/2017/Dortmund ? beim CAMPFIRE Festival für Journalismus
(twtr.io/1U1LsrGnf5L)
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@t
going to Steadiness and Ease: A 15-hour Alignment & Assisting Immersion 2017-07-28…30 @YogaFlowSF #yoga More: http://tantek.com/t4pP1
(twtr.io/1TzznXVWd_f)
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tantek
snarfed, POSSE copy there-of - not a "native tweet" RSVP
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snarfed
sure, i know
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tantek
I mean I'm happy to make something up, but would rather be informed by prior art (tweets that *actually* do some sort of RSVPing, instead of being a side-effect of an RSVP somewhere else)
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KartikPrabhu
ok people I was just testing if my new computer works with IRC
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Loqi
pong
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KartikPrabhu
calm down and back to work!
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