#indieweb 2017-07-24

2017-07-24 UTC
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[miklb] or winter I suppose.
rrix, j12t, eli_oat, ScruffyDan, satamusic, KartikPrabhu, j12t_, wolftune and gRegorLove joined the channel
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gRegorLove Good evening, indieweb
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prtksxna gRegorLove: o/
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cweiske what is perma.cc?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "perma.cc" yet. Would you like to create it?
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cweiske perma.cc is https://perma.cc/
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Loqi ok
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KartikPrabhu uh? why does one website need its one page?
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cweiske what is archive.org?
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Loqi The Internet Archive is a non-profit organization that is building a digital library, including archival copy of much of the public web https://indieweb.org/archive.org
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gRegorLove Looks like IA for citations
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prtksxna Thanks cweiske! I had fount prema.cc once and then "lost" it.
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gRegorLove "In a sample of several legal journals, approximately 70% of all links in citations published between 1999 and 2011 no longer point to the same material. Broken links in journal articles undermine the citation-based system of legal scholarship by obscuring the evidence underlying authors’ ideas."
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gRegorLove Calling their archived links "Perma Links" is a bit of a weird term overloading
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prtksxna nods
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prtksxna I guess they're trying to emphasize on "permanent", but diluting the existing meaning of permalink.
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gRegorLove what is perma.cc?
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Loqi perma.cc is a service developed by the Harvard Law School Library for archiving web citation links https://indieweb.org/perma.cc
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[pfefferle] good morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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petermolnar !tell schmarty yep, I am running my own mailserver, but it's not as fun as one might think; I can, though, give some advices, but if you want to start somewhere (and not gentoo-like from scratch): http://www.iredmail.org/ and https://mailinabox.email/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske I can confirm that it's not fun
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petermolnar I wouldn't say I'm not weirdly proud to run my own mail stack, but sometimes it's a PITA. I recently had to switch from a debian 8, which was upgraded in chain from 6 to 7 and to 8 to 9, with a reinstall, because systemd, and learnt that dspam is not a thing anymore because nobody is maintaining it. dspam is _painful_ to get running, but once it's there, it's fine. Finding an alternative to it, now that is was painful, spamassassin is
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petermolnar still a picky little b*, so I ended up following this: https://www.owlfish.com/thoughts/dovecot-bogofilter-antispam-2017-01-28.html
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cweiske i'm still using courier for imap/pop3
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cweiske together with postgrey and spamassassing
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cweiske mainly because it works, more or less
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cweiske spam is a major pain for me
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@Efftronics_Ltd Only few days left for India Warehousing Show 2017 India's Leading Warehousing & Logistics Event #IMHLS #IWS2017… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889391744512434177 (twitter.com/_/status/889391744512434177)
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cweiske IWS vs. IWS
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@effeledlights Only few days left for India Warehousing Show 2017 India's Leading Warehousing & Logistics Event. #IMHLS #IWS2017… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889392240207872002 (twitter.com/_/status/889392240207872002)
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gRegorLove Heh
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Zegnat Real tempted to start replying to those XD
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petermolnar cweiske why postgrey? postscreen, which is built-in, should be ok, shouldn't it?
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cweiske when I setup it 10 years ago, I only knew of postgrey
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prtksxna _:(´□`」 ∠):_ And I got excited that an IWS was happening in Delhi
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cweiske and during server upgrades I only adjusted configuration to make it work again
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petermolnar fair point
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petermolnar take a look at postscreen though, it's quite nice
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petermolnar you do need this though: https://github.com/stevejenkins/postwhite
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Loqi [stevejenkins] postwhite: Script for generating a whitelist for Postfix's Postscreen based on large senders' SPF records
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Zegnat prtksxna, we are waiting for you to organise one ;)
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prtksxna Zegnat: Heh! I cant even get a homebrew club started :(
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prtksxna should read the wiki on howe to start one and DO IT"
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Zegnat You can always start a virtual one
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Zegnat And I need to go create more HWC event pages. I keep having to go AFK when I want to get to it
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mblaney prtksxna: add yourself to the "cities with interest" section on /hwc
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mblaney then you can just wait for someone else in your city to join you!
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mblaney is still waiting...
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mblaney :-)
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prtksxna mblaney: Hmm. Could do that. I might be in a for a long wait too :)
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prtksxna Zegnat: I should start by attending a virtual one :)
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mblaney I've been mentioning indieweb at other meetups, so that might help.
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prtksxna nods
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Zegnat As many have said the wiki seems to be the worst tool for promoting your event, so just adding to /hwc could keep you waiting for a while :(
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@martijnvdven @DavidDarnes @staticmanapp I am not personally familiar with @staticmanapp, but several #indieweb websites run on J… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889430400187207681 (twitter.com/_/status/889430400187207681)
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@sl007 @susa7170 Wie sieht es denn mit http://campfirefestival.org + Dir aus ? D.H. u. E.T. sind auch da. Wir sind hier : https://indieweb.org/2017/Dortmund ? ;) (twitter.com/_/status/889446687051325440)
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schmarty Good morning, IndieWeb!
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Loqi schmarty: petermolnar left you a message 5 hours, 4 minutes ago: yep, I am running my own mailserver, but it's not as fun as one might think; I can, though, give some advices, but if you want to start somewhere (and not gentoo-like from scratch): http://www.iredmail.org/ and https://mailinabox.email/
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schmarty petermolnar: thanks! I ran my own email server long ago when I lived in a college dorm with a great connection. I am pretty happy with pobox / fastmail these days
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jeremycherfas Mornin’ Indieweb.
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@ChrisAldrich @dangillmor I use @pressfwd to own my own marginalia; @hypothes_is also overlays my copy as well #indieweb http://boffosocko.com/2017/01/19/pressforward-and-hypothes-is-work-great-together/ (twitter.com/_/status/889506702420316161)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@dangillmor I use @pressfwd to own my own marginalia; @hypothes_is also overlays my copy as well #indieweb http://boffosocko.com/2017/01/19/pressforward-and-hypothes-is-work-great-together/" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-07-24 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/dangillmor-i-use-pressfwd-to-own-my-own-marginalia-hypothes_is
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sketchess Good morning Loqi.
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sketchess Good morning Indieweb.
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sketchess -.- great, my internet connection almost dies these day. Would somebody please look up for me who is organizing the Indieweb November Event. Many thanks.
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jeremycherfas Sketchess Do you mean IWC Berlin?
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sketchess yes
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jeremycherfas Joschi Kuphal and Marc Thiele
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sketchess thanks
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jeremycherfas Joschi is https://jkphl.is/ and Marc is http://marcthiele.com/
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Loqi [Joschi Kuphal] Hey! Glad you’ve made it here! ツ
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sketchess Hmmm. How can someone volunteer?
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sketchess thank you too jeremycherafs
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Zegnat Shoot jkphl a message and ask if there is anything you can do - that’s probably the quickest way to volunteer.
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sketchess Wonderful. As soon as it gets more stable. :)
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sketchess Will I see you there Zegnat?
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jeremycherfas If you’re not very careful, you might see me there too.
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sketchess I would be delighted jeremycherfas. :)
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sketchess You have a good hand for words.
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jeremycherfas That’s what I should concentrate on.
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sketchess ?
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Zegnat sketchess, I hope to be there in november, yes
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Zegnat I am still not sure if I should just book the trip now, or wait for my uni schedule
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sketchess :D my attendance is save
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sketchess Just have to make sure if someome likes to come with me than I book. ;)
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Zegnat I should probably just book, but I always have a hard time prioritising
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Loqi +1
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Zegnat Thanks for your input Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome, Zegnat
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sketchess Nah, why wait.... hmm can I register with any name o.O? real name, nickname...
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sketchess never mind.... done :)))
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Zegnat I don’t think anyone cares what name you use :P Also, you’ll probably write your nametag yourself anyway.
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Zegnat At last year’s Düsseldorf I switched name on my name tag between Saturday and Sunday
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sketchess xD
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sketchess But I guess I should have my receipt than with me to verify my spot at least...
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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sketchess Good morning gRegorLove. :)
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bear for people using imagemagick for processing -- a possible remote-code-exploit CVE is out https://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3363-1
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bear tl;dr: upgrade your imagemagick as soon as you can -- from the notice: " If a user or automated system using ImageMagick were tricked into opening a specially crafted image, an attacker could exploit this to cause a denial of service or possibly execute code with the privileges of the user invoking the program."
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petermolnar bear imagemagick lib or the bins?
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bear both
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petermolnar ok, lib, that's bad
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bear yea
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petermolnar that's virtually everything
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bear yep, it's why I posted here with more wording than normal
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sknebel thanks
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bear it's going to need an update to the lib and then a restart of most everything to pickup new lib
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[miklb] bear++
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Loqi bear has 137 karma in this channel (189 overall)
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Zegnat Oof, that’s a bad one bear! Thanks for the notice.
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petermolnar heh, unattended upgrades already did the job
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bear the one that has me all knickered-up is https://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3362-1 X.Org X Server issues -- but I doubt most indieweb folk are running X.Org
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petermolnar not on public facing ones, no
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bear we have a lot of folks use X.Org to run headless browser testing jobs
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bear this one will probably impact anyone running a NAS or other network attached drive -- https://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3353-4 -- "... Samba clients incorrectly trusted unauthenticated portions of Kerberos tickets. A remote attacker could use this to impersonate trusted network services or perform other attacks."
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voxpelli In a way sad that a post like http://www.vanille.de/openmoko-10-years-after-mickeys-story/ gets lots of comments on Hacker News, but no comments on its own site. Wonder if one could send a PR to a sane HN-clone (like Lobster) and get them to send Webmentions?
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aaronpk that'd be interesting
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aaronpk especially since typically these posts are submitted to the aggregators by someone else, not specifically syndicated to them
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sknebel I think we had that discussion in the context of bridgy before
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sknebel I don't think I'd want aggregator comments as individual comments on a site
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aaronpk you'd be able to tell they are aggregator comments from the mf2 on the site tho
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/693
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Loqi [snarfed] #693 hacker news support: publish, backfeed
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sknebel hm, I guess with the typical display you wouldn't actually show all comments, just the top-level ones
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voxpelli Wouldn't the initial "bookmark" or something be the actual reply and the rest of the replies be Salmentions of that reply?
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voxpelli So if one wouldn't want them, one would just remove the top level reply and they would all go away
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voxpelli And if one doesn't support Salmention trees of comments one will never get more than the top level bookmark post anyway
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aaronpk yeah i think that's the right way to think about it
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voxpelli aaronpk: do we have a good eleverator pitch for sending to such projects?
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voxpelli looks and realizes its ruby so he probably wouldn't be that good at making a PR for it anyway
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Zegnat Who was it pitching webmention to Mastodon et al other federated systems? ben_thatmustbeme? Tips?
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voxpelli Here's the contribution guidelines if someone would want to give it a go: https://github.com/jcs/lobsters/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
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voxpelli Feature request submitted: https://github.com/jcs/lobsters/issues/383 Ping aaronpk, as you know Ruby maybe you can have an eye on it? :)
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Loqi [voxpelli] #383 Feature: Send Webmentions
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tantek good day #indieweb
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tantek besides IoT type stuff, has anyone applied indieweb concepts/principles to their own home, mapping where anything(data?info?) with their home is actually "owned" by another entity, and figure out how to self-own that?
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tantek obvious start is utilities
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aaronpk i used to read my electric water and gas meters every couple days and record it
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tantek PESOSing them as it were
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tantek I'm (re)considering all the security implications again, and coming up with new kinds of conceptual / physical firewalls
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tantek e.g. (physical home) progressive layers of tech brainstorm - the goals being like indieweb /principles, independence, control of devices and data
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tantek imagine a series of concentric spaces (rooms/floors within rooms/floors), the deeper, the fewer things allowed in it.
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Zegnat I am not even sure what I could log here in the house. Electricity is the only thing I can think off, but I am not going to plow through metre high snow during the winter just to collect a data point.
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tantek outside world || internet connected home || internal only network || unnetworked devices / peripheral structures only || analog connections only || self-contained devices only || solar/battery operated only || non-electric only (e.g. paper & pen)
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tantek point being to make it very hard (impossible?) for anything in an outer layer to compromise anything in an inner layer
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tantek may also be useful as a metric for classifying your existing devices and how much control (security) you have in/of them
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@dixongexpat Adventures With #IndieWeb http://glenn.thedixons.net/blog/adventures-with-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/889603832749150210)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Site deaths where you least expect them" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-22 http://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/site-deaths-where-you-least-expect-them
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Lukas Rosenstock on Twitter: "Just taken the first few steps to re-enable my personal website. Hope to publish my first post there soon. #indieweb"" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-23 https://twitter.com/LukasRosenstock/status/889173229184532480
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@dixongexpat Giving Up on #IndieWeb http://glenn.thedixons.net/blog/giving-up-on-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/889604139126329346)
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tantek that doesn't sound good
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tantek has glenn shown up here?
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tantek sounds like a failure to address gen 2/3 needs
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aaronpk "The only way this is going to gain any sort of widespread momentum is for it to become baked in to other services. Core, not plugins."
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tantek I see snarfed already liked the tweet, hoping that means he'll provide more accurate Bridgy / WordPress numbers
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snarfed hah, no, doesn't mean that
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snarfed both numbers are accurately measured afaik
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aaronpk i think the wordpress plugin has only 300+ installs because that's the brand new one?
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tantek aaronpk, need to writeup a debunking of that kind of statement
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tantek to be blunt, that's perhaps one of the most unscientific (but logically sounding sensible) statements in this whole area
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Zegnat sebsel might have some better thoughts on Kirby being hard to set-up for IndieWeb, but I am tempted to say it is the wrong CMS for non-gen-1…
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tantek the usability criticisms I agree with (strongly, and have kept pushing on)
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tantek Zegnat, then state that on the /Kirby page
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tantek or rather state who you think it is for
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tantek similarly, setting up WordPress is not really beyond Gen 1 yet
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gRegorLove What is Kirby?
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Loqi Kirby is a filed-based CMS https://indieweb.org/Kirby
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sebsel uh-o
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Zegnat sebsel how out-of-the-box-ready-to-go would you describe Kirby plugins to be? I always feel like they are more like “with this plugin you can now use the following PHP functions…” rather than “add this and go”.
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sebsel Well, my site runs on Kirby, and I obviously do everything in-code. But there is a panel, and that's the CMS part of it. And I actually don't use it at all. (See https://seblog.nl/panel, it 404s)
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sebsel Kirby is more for devs who build sites for clients. So installing everything requires knowledge, and then everything should be fine.
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sebsel I am working on a new Webmention plugin for Kirby, literally as we speak.
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sebsel I guess I will include some panel widgets for that too.
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tantek so that kind of framing / context should be added to the /Kirby page
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tantek here I'll start a stub
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sebsel Yeah, one of the problems is that the creator of Kirby made a Webmentions plugin, which is working but not great.
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gRegorLove FYI, you can exclude Bellingham from pages, or list them as "on hiatus". I'm updating /HWC now.
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sebsel Then I forked it and improved, but he only replied when I got a vuln in his image upload script.
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gRegorLove oops, wrong room.
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tantek sebsel: stub https://indieweb.org/Kirby#Why
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sebsel Anyway, hope a new plugin would do some good. I notice there is growing interest for it.
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tantek feel free to improve
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sebsel I will look at it!
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sebsel goes and read the blogpost first
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snarfed on an unrelated note, tantek aaronpk i think i've implemented all block list support in granary/bridgy that i currently plan to, ie everything except https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/762
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Loqi [snarfed] #762 resend all past webmentions from newly blocked users
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tantek wow
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snarfed ...so tantek pls holler if you have any other outstanding blocklist requests, other than https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 , which i assume is the main remaining need
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Loqi [tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek tries to reload this context (feels a bit #indieweb-dev)
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 279 karma in this channel (292 overall)
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snarfed eh we're still talking your user-level block list desires. happy to move to dev if it drops lower
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tantek snarfed, I guess I'm seeing this as dev-user level block list desires
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snarfed sure
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tantek we're nowhere near close to service-level UX for block / block lists
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tantek well we're a lot closer
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tantek sorry didn't mean to sound so negative
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snarfed lol
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Loqi [superfeedr] "#lra15 Maker stuff and spaces with some literacy stuff" by Greg McVerry on 2015-12-04 https://medium.com/alt-pub-explorations/lra15-maker-stuff-and-spaces-with-some-literacy-stuff-bdee46a78eef?source=rss----b7eb369eab5e---4
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Talking #fedwiki to think about #digped and #indieweb unity" by Greg McVerry on 2015-12-28 https://medium.com/alt-pub-explorations/talking-fedwiki-to-think-about-digped-and-indieweb-unity-239b4cfec50d?source=rss----b7eb369eab5e---4
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Live blog from #lra15 Imagining Beyond the Domesticated “New”: Creative Remixings of Literacies…" by Greg McVerry on 2015-12-04 https://medium.com/alt-pub-explorations/live-blog-from-lra15-imagining-beyond-the-domesticated-new-creative-remixings-of-literacies-a269aca2d9c7?source=rss----b7eb369eab5e---4
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tantek hello 2015 Greg
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@iwantmyname Coming up tomorrow! Stop by at @iwantmyname to chat about #indieweb tech. https://twitter.com/treitnauer/status/876980277104463872 (twitter.com/_/status/889614488764383233)
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tantek snarfed, regarding the stats quoted in that blog post - presumably you have graphs that show more context right?
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snarfed tantek: sure, you've seen them, both bridgy and indiemap...but they support his point. we're growing, but in absolute numbers, we're still very small.
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tantek sebsel++ for https://seblog.nl/2017/07/24/2/sad-to-hear
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Loqi sebsel has 26 karma in this channel (35 overall)
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Sad to hear, especially since you tried to use my plugins. But I will not try to convince you to come back, I know my plugins are lacking. They are just pieces of my own site I open sourced, but the way I cut them off might break things. I am active...
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tantek snarfed, I disagree with the framing of "in absolute numbers, we're still very small"
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tantek nothing succesful works like that, especially any / all network-related / exponential phenomenon
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snarfed sure
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tantek phenomena
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snarfed sounds like you have a good counterargument reply to publish :P
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tantek no I do not because no matter how many times I repeat that critique, the "in absolute numbers" misconception persists
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snarfed ok
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tantek so I have not yet developed / written a good enough antibody for that
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snarfed i definitely don't either. but i'm happy to donate indiemap and bridgy graphs to anyone who does.
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tantek closest we've got is the mass adoption anti-pattern
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tantek what is mass adoption
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mass adoption" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is antipattern'
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tantek what is antipattern
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Loqi For reference: WS-Deathstar [1][2][3][4][5], e.g.: https://indieweb.org/antipattern
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tantek lol
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tantek mass adoption is /antipattern#mass_adoption
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Loqi ok
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tantek snarfed, ultimately, it sounds like he made the right choice for himself - the state of tools he tried were too frustrating for him, so he gave up. That's a rational decision and may accurately reflect the state of those tools
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tantek that's the actual problem
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snarfed agreed. hence my twitter like.
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tantek and likely where the emotion results that then drove the extrapolation to misconceptions
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tantek addressing the misconceptions is not solving the actual problem he had
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tantek problems*
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snarfed yup, we know gen 3 is currently somewhat rough, and gen 2 maybe unworkable
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snarfed er, vice versa, or whichever direction the numbering goes
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tantek better to treat the impassioned misconceptions as a cry for help about the state of indieweb tools for personal use rather than any actual reasoned criticism of chances of growth / success on a more macro scale
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TheGillies leaving comments on a website is an antipattern
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Loqi TheGillies: Zegnat left you a message 2 days, 13 hours ago: I saw you mention IndieAuth in regards to federation, do you see problems with auth federation? Or is this another case of naming confusion over what IndieAuth is and what the indieauth.com service is?
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TheGillies goes back to his corner
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tantek gen 3 has only shown success when attending an indiewebcamp and being helped in-person by gen 1 experts
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tantek TheGillies - not really substantial enough to be its own anti-pattern, but rather a failure to #ownyourdata
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tantek violating a single principle does not an anti-pattern make. there's no "pattern" to it. It's just one thing
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tantek apologies for the digression from user adoption to principles meta
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TheGillies I was mostly joking. comments in general are usually crap. maybe webmention is self selecting
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tantek snarfed, gen 2 is somewhere between barely workable (there are now bloggers like @ricmac who are getting stuff to work quickly, thanks to the improved state of wordpress plugins setup / reliability etc.) and difficult to maintain per what happened to dangillmor
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tantek TheGillies: I appreciate your optimism, however Webmention is just plumbing, and won't stop bad comments per se. People having to consider what they post as going on their own website first may help self-correct some bad commenting behavior
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aaronpk i do think there's a difference when you have to comment by writing on your own site, so you can't treat it as "throwaway" as you can when writing in someone else's space
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tantek TheGillies: your larger point does reflect what drewinthehead recently did
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tantek aaronpk, you can sorta treat it as throwaway if it doesn't show up in your homepage feed (or any feed from your site)
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aaronpk sort of
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sknebel see Facebook comments
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sknebel (on news sites etc)
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tantek aaronpk: yeah, I said sorta :)
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tantek sknebel: yeah that's a good example
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tantek I wonder if we have any docs on the fb comments embed
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tantek what is a comments embed
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "comments embed" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what are Facebook comments
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Facebook comments" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek hmm
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TheGillies aaronpk: my entire site is throw-away so it doesn't stop me from idiotic comments. i still have the jekyll boilerplate on my site
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tantek sknebel: what does FB call that feature where you can embed a comment box on your site, but using FB identity?
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TheGillies i might be the exception rather than the rule though
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sknebel tantek I guess "Comments Plugin"? https://developers.facebook.com/docs/plugins/comments/
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zuz Hi, is there an SF meeting at Moz tomorrow 5:30p?
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zuz *Wednesday
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tantek zuz Wed yes!
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tantek when is next-hwc?
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club Meetup is on 2017-07-26 at iwantmyname https://indieweb.org/next-hwc
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tantek Loqi you need to be better about multi-venue events :)
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sknebel TheGillies: in this community maybe, but on a larger scale I don't think so
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zuz Thanks, sounds like a good reason to get up in the morning :-)
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tantek what is the Facebook Comments Plugin
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Facebook Comments Plugin" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek sknebel: ^^^ ?
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tantek (and yes I think that's what I was talking about)
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tantek let's at least start a page for that so we can document when/where it goes wrong and hypothesize why
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tantek attempts a stub
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sknebel The Facebook Comments Plugin is https://developers.facebook.com/docs/plugins/comments/, a widget by Facebook that allows people to leave comments using their FB identity on the site is embedded in.
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Loqi ok
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tantek sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 21 karma in this channel (49 overall)
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tantek what's the magic spell to get kaja to update the link to the defined term
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sknebel there is none yet
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sknebel still testing it and running it manually when I'm there to check it works properly
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TheGillies aaronpk: looks like quill converts uploaded animated gifs to static gifs
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TheGillies unless my webserver is doing that on my end. but it's a raw byte stream so I'm skeptical
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TheGillies but maybe
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aaronpk ooh darn, which interface in quill?
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aaronpk note interface or blog post?
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TheGillies aaronpk: /new
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TheGillies it use it to make jekyll templates because im too lazy to write my own uploader form
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TheGillies and yes curl is too much effort
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aaronpk nice
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TheGillies before anyone asks
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aaronpk huh, i'm not actually sure if/why quill would be changing it. It doesn't specifically parse and re-encode photos, but it's quite possible something along the way is changing it anyway
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TheGillies /shrug
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aaronpk can you file an issue on quill? I'll take a look
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TheGillies TIL quill has a file an issue link on the webpage
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TheGillies RTFM gillies
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TheGillies > There was an error creating your Issue: body is too long (maximum is 65536 characters).
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TheGillies freaking github
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aaronpk o.O
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tantek lol
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tantek 64k should be big enough for anyone ?
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GWG Evening, all
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gRegorLove o/ GWG
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GWG gRegorLove: How are things?
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gRegorLove Busy, but good
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GWG Ditto. Trying to catch up
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