#indieweb 2017-10-08

2017-10-08 UTC
KartikPrabhu, pl_, renem, Anchakor, eisenteeth, tantek, cdchapman, nitot, jeremycherfas, j12t, [pfefferle], wolftune, jeremych_ and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
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[kevinmarks] Is woodwind.xyz down for everyone?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Why Facebook is in a hole over data mining | John Naughton" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-10-08 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/08/facebook-zuckerberg-in-a-hole-data-mining-business-model
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sebsel Here's some discussion about the Kirby Webmention plugin, that started with what it does and is now at the point where the original poster says what he wanted from webmention https://forum.getkirby.com/t/webmention-plugin/8719/7
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sebsel Which is not what webmention is, but still, that is what people (at least one) expect from webmention.
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sebsel Because no Loqi preview: he thought it would pick up sources '100% automatic', by installing a plugin at the target website.
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sebsel Does Bridgy send mentions for just random links people share on twitter, to those links?
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[kevinmarks] No, they have to match a domain that bridgy has registered
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sebsel Hm, but if someone were to share a link to seblog.nl, I would get a ping?
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[kevinmarks] Yes, you should. See the ones on kevinmarks.com - most of those are @kevinmarks, but raw kevinmarks.com mentions on twitter show up too
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sebsel Ah, it was a bit of a search for an example, because most of them also @-mention you, but found a Dutch one: https://twitter.com/lykle/status/857235575665025024
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@lykle Mooie vergelijking, en stapje terug in de tijd ter referentie: Mastodon, Twitter and publics http://www.kevinmarks.com/mastodontheory.html (twitter.com/_/status/857235575665025024)
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sebsel nice :)
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sebsel bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 52 karma in this channel (59 overall)
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Loqi [indienews/de] New post: https://notiz.blog/2015/07/25/indiewebcamp-2014-this-is-a-movement/
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Loqi [indienews/nl] New post: http://dodebomen.nl/2017/10/07/weg-is-weg-ook-digitaal/ (from https://seblog.nl/2017/10/08/1/bookmark)
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[kevinmarks] The post ones work best, but also just linking to my homepage does
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[kevinmarks] http://www.andrewmarks.media/2014/hi-dad
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Loqi [Andrew Marks] Hi Dad! http://kevinmarks.com #indieweb http://www.andrewmarks.media/file/0d6f1bc3768bd662c55907d594012a55/thumb.jpg
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[kevinmarks] Though that's not bridgy
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aaronpk sebsel: lots of examples of those on my OAuth blog post. People tweet the link without mentioning me all the time
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[kevinmarks] This one came via bridgy https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/672478689104281601 and the known original webmentioned me separately
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@benwerd #indieweb @kevinmarks: Hi, I'm Kevin; my site is http://kevinmarks.com/. I also use http://known.kevinmarks.com for shorter notes. (twitter.com/_/status/672478689104281601)
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waynr oh shoot i missed homebrew website club last week
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waynr looks like one of my old friends showed up too, forgot his name though
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[eddie] kevinmarks: woodwind.xyz is fine for me
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tantek via rhiaro, I think this is an essential article to keep in mind for explicit design and usage of indieweb solutions: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia
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tantek I think it hints at many ways we can choose what tools / services we use, and build, to reinforce our focus and attention on what we want (agency, free will) rather than what companies want
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tantek the theory is, if we can do that, then users of indieweb tools could experience cognitive restoration (to pre-distraction levels), and increased personal productivity, thus providing a very strong rational self-incentive to keep doing so
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tantek design << 2017-10-06 [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia 'Our minds can be hijacked': the tech insiders who fear a smartphone dystopia] - examples of dark silo designs that indieweb design could counter with designs that enhance personal focus, attention, and possibly even productivity, by help people shift from using silos to indieweb tools and services.
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Loqi ok, I added "2017-10-06 [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia 'Our minds can be hijacked': the tech insiders who fear a smartphone dystopia] - examples of dark silo designs that indieweb design could counter with designs that enhance personal focus, attention, and possibly even productivity, by help people shift from using silos to indieweb tools and services." to the "See Also" section of /design
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tantek from that article, wow: https://twitter.com/PaulLewis/status/843126905687621632
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@PaulLewis Addicted to your smartphone? Read this passage. (Page 2 of 'Irresistible' @adamleealter book on addictive tech.) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7NjbLvU8AEQ41D.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/843126905687621632)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Some of us are already doing this. Check out the IndieWeb movement. https://www.oreilly.com/ideas/what-if-we-build-the-internet-we-always-wanted" by John Evdemon on 2017-07-13 http://www.evdemon.org/2017/some-of-us-are-already-doing-this-check-out-the
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tantek makes me wonder a bit if aaronpk's approach with "IRC as his reader" is potentially part of the solution
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aaronpk I definitely think there's something about my setup that is much better than the infinite scroll pull-to-refresh model that article talks about
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aaronpk obviously it's not IRC-the-plumbing that's the important part, but I want to figure out what it is and use that to influence how I rebuild Monocle
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aaronpk i think there's two parts to it: 1) instead of just one timeline, I have several different timelines to follow, and can choose which ones to read based on my context. I can decide to ignore certain channels until i'm mentally ready to catch up on that discussion
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tantek that makes sense, pre-sorted layers of stuff to read that *you* can consciously prioritize
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aaronpk 2) Everything that comes into a channel is there for a specific reason, based usually on keyword matching. so it's all high signal. I also know that if there's nothing in a channel, there's no point in "pull-to-refresh" to find a new random thing, so that slot machine mechanism isn't there.
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tantek pull-to-refresh feels like "just" a more addictive gesture than cmd-R, because you don't lose the context of what is already on the page, no blank page in between refreshes
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aaronpk yeah it's a much more compelling interaction because of that
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tantek and if you have a reliable notification (messaging / WebSub) mechanism) then you have no reason to refresh
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tantek ergo don't develop the need or habit to pull to refresh
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sknebel 1) sounds like what you get with a traditional feed reader as well (minus maybe the "x unread" counters that most of them have)
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tantek sknebel - right, the red unread count is part of the problem. and traditional feed readers all had that
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tantek really wants to write up various indieweb techniques for avoiding all these bad social media silo habits / distractions in a Harry Potter themed "Defense Against The Dark Silo Arts" post or series of posts.
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tantek wonders if there's a canonical summary of all "Defense Against The Dark Arts" canon from Harry Potter
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tantek considers asking his nephew who read all the HP books in a week
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jjuran ““It is not inherently evil to bring people back to your product,” he says. “It’s capitalism.””
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tantek jjuran that would make a good quote for an opening of such a post
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tantek looks for the similar V. quote
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tantek this one, V in HP Philosopher's (Sorcerer's) Stone: “There is no good and evil, there is only power…and those too weak to seek it.”
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jeremych_ tantek @adactio's post this morning (or yesterday?) about notifications is also germane. https://adactio.com/journal/12936
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Notifications
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tantek jeremych_: indeed! good one. see also the existing documentation on https://indieweb.org/notification#Why_not
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@huffduffer This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • September 30th - October 6th, 2017 https://huffduffer.com/schmarty/434905 (twitter.com/_/status/917067986434953217)
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@schmarty Your &lt; 10min update on the #IndieWeb community! This Week in the IndieWeb audio edition for Sep 30 - Oct 6, 2017. https://martymcgui.re/2017/10/08/123548/ (twitter.com/_/status/917066466704416768)
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jjuran !tell tantek A quote from Chamber of Secrets I like is “Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain.”
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek notification << 2017-10-07 {{adactio}}: [https://adactio.com/journal/12936 Notifications]
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Loqi tantek: jjuran left you a message 25 minutes ago: A quote from Chamber of Secrets I like is “Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain.”
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Notifications
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Loqi ok, I added "2017-10-07 {{adactio}}: [https://adactio.com/journal/12936 Notifications]" to the "See Also" section of /notification
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tantek jjuran haha that quote is for all the AI advocates.
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Loqi hehe
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sknebel ugh, medium just now showed me a red "unread notification" thing at the top to tell me "Heads up, you are not currently signed in on this device. You need to sign in to comment or see your notifications, etc."
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sknebel oh wait, not medium, just a site styled like it
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[miklb] I stopped clicking Medium links because of crap like that.
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sknebel (this now was dev.to, which at first looked like it is on medium to me, but it isn't, so wrongly assinged blame. but I clearly wouldn't have put it past medium)
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sknebel regarding the previous discussion, the unread counters in my feed reader don't really bother me because I know I won't clear them all. I should try remove them with usercss though, and just keep a marker for "somethng unread here"
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tantek yes - one variant is to just use bold as the "something unread here"
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tantek I think gmail add-ons even has an option for that
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sknebel but I mostly follow relatively selected feeds there. E.g. tried to follow a bunch of indieweb people and it's just to much noise with all the checkins and random photos that don't work well in the feedreader presentation
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tantek checks Gmail Labs and gets distracted by a bunch of new options
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sknebel maybe something with intentionally limited history could work for that. so you can dip into the firehose, but it stops you scrolling endlessly
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tantek hmm it's gone
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tantek goes back to 3-pane email reading since that's now a Gmail labs option. AKA Preview pane.
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aaronpk whoa that dev.to site is crazy. it's like trying to look like twitter?
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sknebel the front page does pretty much, yes
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[jeremyzilar] *“If You See Something, Save Something”*
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[jeremyzilar] https://blog.archive.org/2017/01/25/see-something-save-something/
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tantek good day [jeremyzilar] !
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tantek you may also be interested in: https://indieweb.org/Internet_Archive#Trigger_an_Archive
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[jeremyzilar] ? Hello tantek
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tantek a bunch of us have been doing this for a while, automatically with our posts (saving everything we link to) https://indieweb.org/Internet_Archive#IndieWeb_Examples
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[jeremyzilar] That is exactly what I was looking for… Looking for ways to trigger a page to be archived.
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tantek [jeremyzilar]: here you go for WordPress: https://wordpress.org/plugins/post-archival/
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Loqi [Geeky Software] Description The Internet Archive saves snapshots of web pages and makes them available for prosperity. Now you can have your blog posts included in this internet-wide archive of knowledge! Install and enable this plugin and it will silently take c...
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GWG Someone said WordPress
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[jeremyzilar] I am using HUGO _(no longer on WP)_
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tantek oh ok
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tantek goes back to researching DADA
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[jeremyzilar] I might be able to write something in node to do it. Thank you for the pointer
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tantek goes to #indieweb-dev
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tantek wonders which would be harder for a speaking venue to implement, a faraday cage (to block cell signals), or getting people to check their cell devices at the door
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Zegnat With today’s “security” practices, tantek, I would not leave any devices with anyone at a door.
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tantek that is a very good point
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sknebel I've heard of events where the privacy of participants is extremely important collecting devices (and having a really clearly communicated policy on that, so you know to not bring/lock your device somewhere else if you don't trust them). outside of that seems hard to justify it and the effort necessary
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tantek another technique may be to ask (challenge?) everyone in the audience to set their devices to airplane mode for the duration of the talk
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dgold has been at conferences where the faraday cage is a box located on the stage
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dgold initially, these were just boxes, but more recently they've had little pigeon holes with a ticket no
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[kevinmarks] There was a startup for secure device lockers for music venues, but the goal there was preventing recording
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[kevinmarks] Dada as in the art movement?
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[kevinmarks] What is DADA?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "DADA" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek now you've done it
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tantek DADA is /Defense_Against_the_Dark_Arts
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Loqi ok
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[kevinmarks] @jz I auto archive pages in mention-tech.appspot.com
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tantek kevinmarks - yes you and mentiontech are listed in the IndieWeb examples on that wiki page :)
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[kevinmarks] It is very easy, just a POST
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[kevinmarks] Better to do it async, which is apparently hard for php
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tantek redirects kevinmarks to #Indieweb-dev for dropping so many devisms in just two lines :)
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[kevinmarks] Fair enough
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[kevinmarks] My noterlive habit would be at odds with your suggested device policy.
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[kevinmarks] Or any other digital note taking
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[kevinmarks] I called out unread counts as an antipattern back in j.mp/twittertheory
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tantek kevinmarks no, you use noterlive on a laptop
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tantek I specifically referenced cell devices
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tantek which then I contextually later referred to as "devices" for short
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[kevinmarks] I have used it on phones and tablets too
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[kevinmarks] But mainly on laptop, yes
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tantek is listening to two weeks worth of TWITIWAE
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KartikPrabhu what is TWITIWAE?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "TWITIWAE" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek hmm thought we did
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tantek schmarty ^^^ ?
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schmarty I have not got around to creating a separate page, yet. Presently on mobile. :/
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tantek looks
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tantek TWITIWAE is /This_Week_in_the_IndieWeb_Audio_Edition
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Loqi [superfeedr] "If it’s the first weekend in October, it’s time for apples! ??" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-10-08 http://boffosocko.com/2017/10/08/if-its-the-first-weekend-in-october-its-time-for-apples-%f0%9f%8d%8e%f0%9f%8d%8f/
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KartikPrabhu why is almost every post by Chris Aldrich being picked up in this channel via superfeedr?
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sknebel KartikPrabhu: my theory is still that superfeedr sees the "indieweb" category in his sidebar and thus reports each new page as "hey, there's the string 'indieweb' in there!"
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KartikPrabhu <sigh>
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aaronpk i wonder if superfeedr would be open to limiting the matches to content only inside an h-entry (if the page has h-entry obvs)
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KartikPrabhu word matches are really overkill
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KartikPrabhu matching p-category seems more reasonable
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aaronpk i still can't read chrisaldrich's posts anyway cause it juse keeps redirecting me back to the page in a loop
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KartikPrabhu same
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sknebel yeah, some of his post types still have that bug
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sknebel (seems like at least the ones PESOSed)