#indieweb 2017-12-08

2017-12-08 UTC
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gRegorLove Patreon updated their fee structure. They're not passing the transaction fee along to the patron. 2.9% + .35 per transaction. A lot of people on Twitter annoyed by it, reporting they're losing patrons.
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gRegorLove s/not/now/
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gRegorLove https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure/
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sknebel unless they are changing their billing system (but why wouldn't they say that if that's what they have to do for X reason), it's not "passing transaction fee along"
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sknebel oh, nvm, they added the explanation to the post
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gRegorLove https://twitter.com/eevee/status/938543853644128258
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@eevee tl;dr of patreon change: - patrons will now be charged transaction fees separately; they used to come out of the pledge amount - $1 pledge now costs you $1.37 - creators get more, and it's more predictable and closer to the actual pledge total - patreon quietly gets more too (twitter.com/_/status/938543853644128258)
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sknebel so it *is* passing the fee along, because they restructured their billing in a way to remove one of the primary benefits of using patreon
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gRegorLove Yeah, seeing reports that Paypal is 2.9% + .30 per transaction, so some people are just moving there.
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sknebel yeah. it's really bad for people giving out many of tiny pledges, so either they thought those people aren't price-sensitive enough or that they are not important overall (I have no idea what the actual pledge distribution figures look like, so maybe that's true)
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@tmcw next indieweb goal: quit goodreads (twitter.com/_/status/938928565126512640)
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tantek whoa
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tantek what is goodreads
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Loqi Goodreads is a silo for keeping track of books, reviews, and reading progress https://indieweb.org/Goodreads
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tantek what is a pledge
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pledge" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "pledge is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegorLove That's a big goal
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tantek users of Patreon ^^^ want to define /pledge ?
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tantek what is a donation
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "donation" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "donation is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek what is donate
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Loqi open collective is a service for collecting donations and transparently tracking how the money is used https://indieweb.org/donate
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tantek is a pledge a regular automatic donation?
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gRegorLove Yeah
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tantek that's worthy of defining, as much as something that makes sense to do indie rather than silo
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gRegorLove pledge is a recurring [[donation]]
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is a donation
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "donation" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "donation is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegorLove Same as /payment?
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gRegorLove what is payment
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Loqi payment in the context of the indieweb refers to a feature on an indie web site that provides a way for the visitor to that website to pay (currency, gift card credit, etc.) the person represented by that indie web site https://indieweb.org/payment
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tantek not really, payment is both more general, and tends to imply "for something"
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tantek ... in particular
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gRegorLove With Patreon there's the option to pledge per-item created, e.g. $X per YouTube video uploaded.
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gRegorLove Or it can just be a flat donation per-month
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gRegorLove Some patrons are just being generous, I'm sure, but there's almost always patron-only content, so it's sorta for something.
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gRegorLove I back a podcast I enjoy because I want to help them, but also because I enjoy the patron-only episodes they release.
plindner, vivus, M-mxuribe, JulianFoad[m], myfreeweb, M-hotzeplotz, stardot[m], tokelove[m], Salt[m], AlanPearce[m], ballpointcarrot, zoglesby, TheGillies, wjh, grantcodes, thrrgilag, eli_oat[m], garlox[m], pniedzielski[m], crasch[m], doubleloop[m], afrogeek[m], ballancier[m], M-DzzzzzzR, strk[m], schmarty, reed_[m], khurtwilliams[m], lucaconti[m], M-podviaznikov, kitblake[m], deybacsi[m] and jaduncan[m] joined the channel
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@manton2 Two new podcast episodes today: Core Intuition 308 is a full hour about the MarsEdit 4 release. Timetable 90 is a full… 6 minutes about IndieWebCamp and my week. https://coreint.org/308 (twitter.com/_/status/938945544264798209)
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@ChrisAldrich @briannaorg Thanks for the slides! I wish I could have attended in person. I've linked them on the #IndieWeb wiki for others in the future. https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book (twitter.com/_/status/938956474772049920)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@briannaorg Thanks for the slides! I wish I could have attended in person. I've linked them on the #IndieWeb wiki for others in the future." by Chris Aldrich on 2017-12-08 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/briannaorg-thanks-for-the-slides-i-wish-i-could-have
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-12-08.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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@cleverdevil @hartley Invite codes are temporary while the platform is under beta. It’s built on the #IndieWeb, and enables you to participate using your existing website/blog using something like WordPress. I have invite codes if you want one 😉 (twitter.com/_/status/939026088113487872)
voxpelli, jimpick, gRegorLove, prtksxna, gko, [jeremycherfas], tantek, friedcell, Pierre-O, loicm, raretrack, JulianFoad[m], grantcodes, plindner, M-hotzeplotz, tokelove[m], AlanPearce[m], pniedzielski[m], jaduncan[m], M-mxuribe, stardot[m], garlox[m], TheGillies, myfreeweb, Salt[m], zoglesby, wjh, thrrgilag, eli_oat[m], crasch[m], doubleloop[m], ballancier[m], M-DzzzzzzR, schmarty, strk[m], afrogeek[m], ballpointcarrot, khurtwilliams[m], M-podviaznikov, lucaconti[m], kitblake[m], reed_[m], deybacsi[m], muhh[m], adactio, qwerty, aexoxea, deeden, tyler-android and jeremycherfas joined the channel; tyler-android left the channel
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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schmarty Good morning IndieWeb! I am off to the airport bound for Austin!
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jeremycherfas Have fun
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@schmarty BWI ✈️ AUS On my way to Austin for IndieWebCamp! (twitter.com/_/status/939112597902815232)
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Zegnat Interesting idea, basically running a local email server so you can connect your favourite email client and that local server then takes care of all the encrypting of email etc before actually sending it away: https://thenextweb.com/security/2017/12/07/protonmail-bridge-is-an-accessible-encryption-solution-for-apple-mail-outlook-and-thunderbird/
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ancarda Hmm, that's a neat idea, Zegnat. Do you know of a generic solution that isn't tied to ProtonMail? e.g. would sign all outbound email, and encrypt to recipients who have trusted keys in your keyring?
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@manton2 Cool stickers from @dreamhost to give out at IndieWebCamp tomorrow. https://www.eventbrite.com/e/indiewebcamp-austin-2017-tickets-39918084064 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQiKKKAUEAAdexQ.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/939152431639867392)
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Zegnat No, this is the first time I ever saw someone to a local bridging server like that. Which is why I thought it was interesting.
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sknebel I've seen that as a company-level thing a few times
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Remote Goals for IWC Austin" by Michael Bishop on 2017-12-08 https://miklb.com/2017/12/remote-goals-for-iwc-austin/
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tantek goodness 280 is so much
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aaronpk Your don't *have* to use them all
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tantek I know! it feels so weird
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@PinoBatch @ultrahdart @letsencrypt @JohnMu @Blogger Could be right now if you switch hosting from Blogspot. Start at the @indiewebcamp wiki https://indieweb.org/why (twitter.com/_/status/939184984493084672)
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tantek what is a native app
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "native app" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "native app is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek wat
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tantek what is an app
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Loqi Apps are less functional versions of web sites that are usually restricted to one or more proprietary platforms https://indieweb.org/app
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tantek native app is /app
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is an app quit
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "app quit" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "app quit is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek like http://boffosocko.com/2017/12/07/i-just-deleted-twitter-off-of-my-phone/
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Loqi [Chris Aldrich] It’s not the bigger Twitter quit I’ve been debating for a while, but I’ve just taken the intermediate step of removing the Twitter app and its notifications from my phone. I’m going to be using a handful of feed readers to more purposefully c...
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Zegnat Hmm. I am starting to see some people coming with “host it yourself” as a response to Patreon’s recent fee changes. That’s going to be interesting.
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tantek Zegnat hence /pledge
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tantek could you add those responses to that page as Brainstorming ?
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[jeremycherfas] That’s definitely the way I’m leaning. I doubt that I will have anything implemented this weekend, but I have sent an email to my Patrons.
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aaronpk Thankfully Stripe makes it super easy to do
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aaronpk I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't already an open source project that solves this. Check the list of stripe apps maybe?
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tantek what is Stripe
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Loqi Stripe is a service for processing credit card payments https://indieweb.org/Stripe
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tantek aaronpk - worth adding to /Stripe#Brainstorming about how to implement [[pledge]] support
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[jeremycherfas] As the site is a WP one, I’ve already scoped out Stripe and two plugins. Maybe I will have something by Monday :)
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aaronpk Stripe << https://stripe.com/works-with a list of services and open source projects that use Stripe for payments, possibly one or more of these could be used for [[pledge]] support
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Loqi ok, I added "https://stripe.com/works-with a list of services and open source projects that use Stripe for payments, possibly one or more of these could be used for [[pledge]] support" to the "See Also" section of /Stripe
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tantek pledge << [[Stripe#Brainstorming]] for how to use Stripe to implement pledge support on your own site.
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Stripe#Brainstorming]] for how to use Stripe to implement pledge support on your own site." to the "See Also" section of /pledge
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@cleverdevil Some great memories from my website's "On This Day" feature today – https://cleverdevil.io/onthisday/12/08 #indieweb #ownyourmemories (twitter.com/_/status/939195158805057536)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Some great memories from my website's &quot;On This Day&quot; feature today – https://cleverdevil.io/onthisday/12/08 #indieweb #ownyourmemories" by Jonathan LaCour on 2017-12-08 https://cleverdevil.io/2017/some-great-memories-from-my-websites-quoton-this-dayquot-feature
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gRegorLove Howdy, #indieweb
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tantek howdy, gRegorLove
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dgold hey up
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dgold Zegnat: isn't kickstarter about to launch a patreon-clone?
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Zegnat Could be, though it would be nice to see people self-host it.
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gRegorLove I'd heard that, yeah
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Zegnat With the new fee structure, it is actually more expensive for people to pledge to you on Kickstarter than if you had Stripe set-up on your own. Stripe adds a flat transaction fee of 30 cents, Kickstarter is going to add 35.
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tantek wow that's nuts
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gRegorLove Same with Paypal. They're 2.9% + .30
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tantek talk about nickel & diming
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gRegorLove Interesting thing that I didn't capture in the news yesterday is that they're moving from one lump charge for all your patronage on the 1st of the month to individual charges on the anniversary of when you pledged.
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gRegorLove So if you pledge $1 to 20 people, you get those fees 20 times.
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Zegnat Yes.
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Zegnat That’s actually kinda why they are changing it. Because they want to change their billing system completely.
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Zegnat They just forgot to communicate that clearly to anyone until they added an “update” to their blog post.
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gRegorLove And all, seemingly, to avoid the issue of people pledging, getting benefits before the first charge on the 1st of the next month.
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gRegorLove Which seems like the laziest way to solve that problem
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Zegnat Because apparently a pro-rate system is totally unheard off, he
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gRegorLove Hehe
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Zegnat I also thought it interesting how they are doing this after testing and communication from creators. And now all creators are freaking out together with their patrons :P
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Zegnat Also yet to have seen a creator that knew about this beforehand.
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gRegorLove Hank Green is on their advisory board and didn't hear about it beforehand
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Zegnat Oh, I haven’t looked up if the Greens had any comment on this.
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Zegnat But wow that feels like a huge oversight...
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gRegorLove Looking for tweets...
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gRegorLove Yeah, @hankgreen was talking about it a lot yesterday, and apparently had to backtrack because even he was confused by it at first.
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gRegorLove this thread: https://twitter.com/hankgreen/status/938976839623622656
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@hankgreen @SuedeBlade They did not. I don't know what I would have told them if they had, though. (twitter.com/_/status/938976839623622656)
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Zegnat Their communication has been more than horrible.
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dougbeal|mb1 what is Drip
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Drip" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Drip is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat An example they cited for why the system needed a change to me just showed they were bad at communicating finances to creators:
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Zegnat Yes, 1/11 is an expected loss, as 5% goes to Patreon and than another ~4% is going to the different payment processors. That’s exactly how Patreon works. As a creator, you should probably have that communicated to you.
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Zegnat “I am in general very happy with the revenue and number of patrons, but the high fees put a serious dent in the gains. Of $11k, almost $1k goes to fees!”
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dougbeal what is Patreon
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Loqi Patreon is a crowd-based, recurring funding site to support and pay content creators https://indieweb.org/Patreon
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dougbeal Drip is a crowd-based, recurring funding site to support and pay content creators. Created by Kickstarter.
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Loqi ok
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gRegorLove dougbeal++
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Loqi dougbeal has 1 karma in this channel (5 overall)
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dougbeal I didn't see anything about pricing on Drip
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gRegorLove Is it live, or upcoming?
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dougbeal I guess its invite-only
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dgold my issue with Patreon's change is that whereas before my creators were getting c.73% of my pledge, that now drops to c.55%
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dgold (i only back at $1)
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tantek ugh
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gRegorLove Of the pledge, or the total amount charged?
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dgold and backing at $1 now cost me $1.70
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dgold gRegorLove: total amount charged
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Zegnat Agreed dgold.
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Zegnat This graphic someone made on Twitter, with actual numbers instead of Patreon’s own nice percentages and stuff, really shows the money that disappears: https://twitter.com/wombatoverlord/status/938849760198447104
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@wombatoverlord @KBSpangler @UrsulaV Yep. And their messaging is sloppy. I decided to redo their explanatory figure to show the actual impact. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQd24IAWsAAFQFG.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/938849760198447104)
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gRegorLove $1 should be $1.38? (Not that it makes it much better. Agreed with you)
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dgold gRegorLove: no, mate
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Zegnat Although to be fair, I think that was made before it was made clear that they were planning to start charging differently
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dgold $1 becomes $1.38, then you stick VAT @23% on top of the whole lot
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gRegorLove Ahh, VAT
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gRegorLove Yeah, no bueno :/
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dgold as I said on one creators conversation about this, I could swallow 23c when I was informed by (at least one) creator that she was getting 90c
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tantek definitely interested in helping figure out (and prototype, etc.) indieweb ways of doing patronage
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dgold Zegnat: bugs the crap out of me that that graphic doesn't account for VAT
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Zegnat Yeah, but I got used to USians ignoring that in their graphics, dgold...
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Zegnat It does show a projection of what gets lost on $1 pledges. So I do wonder if Patreon is going to see a shift away from $1 pledges.
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dgold a shift to 0 in my case
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tantek I wonder what is/was their long tail of $1 pledges
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dgold I'm not paying them 23% vat on a service charge of 35c
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Zegnat Example of indie Patreon that I saw mentioned in one of the twitter threads btw: http://www.bradfordloomis.com/patronage/
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tantek what is patron
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "patron" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "patron is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek what is patronize
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "patronize" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "patronize is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek what is patronage
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "patronage" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "patronage is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat And seeing loads of examples of specifically low pledges dropping off. E.g. Mastodon dev: https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/99135019381341007
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Loqi [Festive Eugen] I'm a bit worried about this whole Patreon business. -9 patrons so far, although I'm still positive on pledge changes this month. I also realize I'm much luckier than other creators having so much support and being able to do this full-time. But it's...
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@brucehs_ld @jdelgadoesteban Cool. Thanks for the info. I do like their support of the Indieweb (http://Micro.blog in particular), but I think I'm going to look into some other options too. (twitter.com/_/status/939225338231640064)
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tantek huh
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tantek what is pledge
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Loqi pledge is a recurring donation https://indieweb.org/pledge
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@brucehs_ld @jdelgadoesteban @DreamHost Cool. Thank you for the info. :) I do like their support of the Indieweb (http://Micro.blog in particular), but I think I'm going to look into some other options too. (twitter.com/_/status/939225470964465667)
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Zegnat Also, this is the beautiful view that greeted a web comic artist on his Patreon dashboard today. A screen full off cancelled pledges: https://twitter.com/ryanqnorth/status/938878800854704128
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@ryanqnorth @Patreon Hey @Patreon: this is just today, and just the *first page*. I don't blame anyone who has to leave: you joined to support me, and you did until they made it untenable. Thank you for supporting me for as long as you could<3 <3 <3 🌠💖🌠 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQeQgkaWAAEkZ6t.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/938878800854704128)
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dgold notes that the 'block payment' thing doesn't apply to me; I use different accounts for all my creators, because the idea of being like some Roman paterfamilias doling out coin to supplicants makes me ill
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dgold but for anyone who does take that approach, the block-payment thing is a pure moneygrab
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Zegnat I still do not know why pro-rate is unacceptable. If all they are worried about it people downloading all exclusive content on the last day of the month for less pay: charge a full month when someone signs up, subtract whatever they paid “too much” on the second payment. Keep everything else the same as now.
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/939195736939466752
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@amandapalmer the frustrating thing is that if we artists all jump ship and crate our own islands and platforms, the artists and supporters are equally screwed with the payment processing problem. this is all really annoying. https://twitter.com/herbie555/status/939195393954295808 (twitter.com/_/status/939195736939466752)
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tantek not quite equally, has has been pointed out here re: Stripe being better than the new Patreon
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Zegnat By 5 cents, yes.
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echarlie I'm still not clear on why people are annoyed with the change in patreon's fee scheme.
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dgold because it means I get charge $1.70 for a $1 pledge, and my creators now get just 55% of what I pay?
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dgold I don't know how to explain it better than that
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dgold oh, and if you have 40 $1 pledges, patreon now collect $15 in 'service charges'
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tantek dgold that's an excellent summary - definitely worth adding to /Patreon#Criticism as a specific example
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@ChrisAldrich @jimpick Can one interact with #Rotonde in a decentralized or #IndieWeb way? Has anyone tried or is it locked off within @BeakerBrowser? (twitter.com/_/status/939234930147676160)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@jimpick Can one interact with #Rotonde in a decentralized or #IndieWeb way? Has anyone tried or is it locked off within @BeakerBrowser?" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-12-08 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/jimpick-can-one-interact-with-rotonde-in-a-decentralized-or
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Zegnat “someone pledging $10 to one creator would see their payment increase to $10.64. But someone paying $1 to 10 creators each would see their payment increase to $13.79.” - https://www.metafilter.com/171040/Patreon-to-shift-payment-processing-fees-from-creators-to-patrons
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Zegnat That MetaFilter topic has loads of good links and discussion
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Zegnat And again, not accounting for VAT, of course.
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dgold tantek: how's that?
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dgold (as a summary)
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-12-08.html
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@jimpick @ChrisAldrich @BeakerBrowser That's definitely on my todo list for my pipette project ... it's just the hugo static website generator, so I can start hooking up all the Indieweb stuff into it. It's trivial to do rel="me", and i've got some ideas around identity. Webmentions and micropub would be awesome. (twitter.com/_/status/939245852844998657)
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gRegorLove dgold++ for /Patreon updates
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Loqi dgold has 17 karma in this channel (25 overall)
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echarlie dgold: thanks; I don't use patreon and thought that it would benefit creators for larger donations; didn't realize small (>$10) were so significant
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@tomwiththeweath looking forward to indiewebcamp austin this weekend! https://2017.indieweb.org/austin (twitter.com/_/status/939263124858949633)
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tantek \o/
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-12-08.html
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[kevinmarks] Google comes out in favour of js;dr https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2017/12/rendering-ajax-crawling-pages.html
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@manton2 The day before the event starts, we decided it was probably time to create a Facebook event for IndieWebCamp Austin. Priorities: blogs and wikis first. But feel free to RSVP on Facebook if you can make it! https://www.facebook.com/events/134934643858347/ (twitter.com/_/status/939271651690270721)
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tantek nice
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tantek manton++
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Loqi manton has 29 karma in this channel (32 overall)
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tantek just some minor shade ;)
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[kevinmarks] I think patreon didn't understand the gratipay like model that has been wrecked by these changes, because they were adding up by value, and so over counting the big donations
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[kevinmarks] Also, there may be a regulatory or payment processing ToS reason, like with gratipay. (The legal difference between being a money transfer service and a payment processor)
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[manton] tantek Trying to spin the fact that I should have thought about Facebook earlier into something more lighthearted. 🙂
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tantek manton I thought it was well said :)
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tantek and now to send some multirsvps
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@t going to #IndieWebCamp Austin 2017-12-09…10, the first ever in #Austin #Texas! Want more of your own website, less toxic social media? Join us this weekend and we’ll set y’all up! RSVP: https://2017.indieweb.org/austin #indieweb #openweb #ownyourdata #yallhands (ttk.me t4ro3) (twitter.com/_/status/939276160428539905)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "going to #IndieWebCamp Austin 2017-12-09…10, the first ever in #Austin #Texas! Want more of your own website, less toxic social media? Join us this weekend and we’ll set y’all up! RSVP: https://2017.indieweb.org/austin #indieweb #openweb #ownyourdata #yallhands" on 2017-12-08 http://tantek.com/2017/342/t3/indiewebcamp-austin-own-website
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tantek so did I rsvp? let's see
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tantek done and eon
tantek joined the channel
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tantek wow the invite friends UI is FB sometimes takes a very long time to bring up a list of people to invite
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tantek like over a minute - that's pretty unacceptable
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tantek wonders if Bridgy POSSE's /invitation posts