#indieweb 2018-01-07

2018-01-07 UTC
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curve25519 how do you guys address the argument that a domain based identity forces a mapping of one identity per domain? What if i have a family domain and there are multiple people on that domain on purpose?
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tantek what is a subdomain
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Loqi A subdomain typically refers to a domain with one more "name(dot)" component than that which someone actually has registered which is often seen indieweb sites with a family name domain like joel(dot)franusic(dot)com, or often on silos like matt(dot)wordpress(dot)com https://indieweb.org/subdomain
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curve25519 yeah but a subdomain is really for all intents and purposes a separate domain
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tantek yes, and that's a feature for security & privacy reasons, CORS etc.
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tantek still solves the "family domain" problem as noted on that page
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tantek (with existing real world problems)
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tantek s/problems/solutions
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tantek lol
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curve25519 tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 232 karma in this channel (413 overall)
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snarfed yeah eg bridgy publish is only mediocre at this. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/629
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Loqi [dogada] #629 publish: support multiple accounts (on same silo) per domain
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GWG Also, which Indieweb concept requires a domain?
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tantek GWG own your identity
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snarfed uh yeah, domain is kinda the most critical first step to indieweb
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GWG tantek, but that is not a requirement for any of the protocols we've built
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curve25519 indieauth
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snarfed indieweb is principles first, protocols second (maybe third)
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GWG Indieauth allows for profile URLs
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curve25519 it does?
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curve25519 TIL
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 292 karma in this channel (329 overall)
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aaronpk curve25519: https://indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/#user-profile-url
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snarfed your own domain buys you portability, which gives you control of your data and destiny, which are maybe the most important indieweb principles
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GWG snarfed, agreed, but sometimes people have to get there by half measures
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snarfed sure!
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curve25519 wow
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curve25519 how did i not know that
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curve25519 aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 534 karma in this channel (1526 overall)
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snarfed but honestly it's pretty damn easy for even gen 2-3 to buy and set up a domain
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GWG snarfed, I agree.
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snarfed eg $1-2, and some free/cheap hosts that don't make you do anything with DNS
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curve25519 yeah my argument wasn't 'domain is too hard' it's "i have multiple people per domain on purpose"
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snarfed yup. *that* is not as straightforward for many of our tools right now
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tantek which is reasonable, and thus something we can document a how to for with /subdomain
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GWG I deliberately use a subdomain for my site, you notice
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GWG I hope someday some other member of my family wants their subdomain
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curve25519 i mean subdomain is probably a good enough solution
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curve25519 at the end of the day
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tantek GWG, as documented! https://indieweb.org/subdomain#IndieWeb_Examples (feel free to add more reasoning / use-cases too)
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aaronpk I like that the subdomain solution means each person can point their subdomain to different hosting providers too
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curve25519 aaronpk++
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curve25519 yeah having your own DNS kingdom per user is nice
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tantek aaronpk, perhaps add that to https://indieweb.org/subdomain#Subdomain_advantages_disadvantages ?
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snarfed nice for gen 1. not really any other gens
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curve25519 is a gen1 elitist :P
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aaronpk nice for the admins for other gens tho
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snarfed true
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tantek snarfed, why do you say that? as long as a gen 1 family member is maintaining the family domain, seems perfectly find for all gens
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tantek fine*
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GWG I am just a realist. I will be happy if people adopt something Indieweb because it is like a gateway drug to more
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snarfed right. i wasn't expecting the dependency on someone else to be your admin
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tantek that's kinda the point of a family domain
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snarfed if so, then sure
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snarfed it's a slightly degraded form of "own your identity," but not too bad
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tantek people collectively own all sorts of things with their family members
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tantek that's existing practice
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snarfed sure. we agree.
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tantek just mapping domains to that is
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curve25519 my wife controls my money, i control her web identity
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snarfed one difference is that owning a physical object doesn't always require expertise, like owning a domain and managing DNS does
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snarfed eg if the family admin dies, how many families will be able to take over DNS admin? some. not all.
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tantek sidesteps the physical object maintenance lifecycle philosophy discussion
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snarfed thx. obviously not the point. :P
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@ChrisAldrich @Joseph_Koivisto @edsu I would heartily invite you all to come to #IndieWebCamp in Baltimore Jan 20-21: https://indieweb.org/2018/Baltimore It will be an even better introduction than the narrower scope Homebrew Website Club. (twitter.com/_/status/949797464852369408)
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curve25519 are there any purely-dns based indieweb specs, like using TXT records as something similar to rel=me?
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@ChrisAldrich @Joseph_Koivisto @edsu I would also encourage you to think about potentially proposing an Edu-focused session that Saturday to help get a broader conversation going around IndieWeb and education: https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_for_Education #edtech #higherED (twitter.com/_/status/949797731035435009)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@Joseph_Koivisto @edsu I would also encourage you to think about potentially proposing an Edu-focused session that Saturday to help get a broader conversation going around" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-01-07 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/joseph_koivisto-edsu-i-would-also-encourage-you-to-think-about
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tantek snarfed, " how many families will be able to take over ..." is part of larger problem of all online "resources", silo accounts, email etc.
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@ChrisAldrich @edsu @Joseph_Koivisto @westgardja @katedohe I suspect that you could use a Homebrew Website Club to do much of what you're contemplating and there's no reason that Institutions and their social presences shouldn't be a part of the bigger discussion as well. (twitter.com/_/status/949797940930981888)
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curve25519 would be cool if i could make a dns entry for my domain that points to github for indieauth rather than hosting an actual webpage
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tantek curve25519: you can use an HTTP LINK header if you like
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curve25519 although i guess that defeats the point of indie"web"
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tantek but now we're getting into dev talk
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tantek #indieweb-dev that is
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curve25519 an http header requires that i run a webserver
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tantek like you said, indie"web" :)
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tantek but solves the "rather than hosting an actual webpage" problem you pointed out
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tantek back to user level questions
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curve25519 i suck at maintaining content. all my urls are broken
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tantek is it worth documenting "family domain" as its own page, examples, use-case?
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tantek what is a family domain?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "family domain" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "family domain is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek (I'll let folks who use one choose to document it or not)
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curve25519 i don't actually use one, i was more curious what the argument was
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tantek we tend to prefer to focus on solutions rather than arguments :)
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jjuran Hi curve25519, are you related to Ed? :-)
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curve25519 i mean at some level we are all related man
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jjuran That’s twisted
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curve25519 I think socratic arguing is very useful in finding solutions
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curve25519 i think saying they are mutually exclusive may be a bit of a fallacy
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curve25519 aaronpk: im getting 502s on indieauth :(
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jjuran It might be fair to say there’s an emphasis on building (and using) prototypes vs. settling all the details in advance.
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curve25519 jjuran++
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Loqi jjuran has 5 karma in this channel (7 overall)
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jjuran Thanks. Can’t repro 502 on <https://indieauth.com/>, though.
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aaronpk curve25519: sounds like a timeout? are you using any URLs that don't exist maybe?
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@megarush1024 @HWApex http://www.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/949822569171038208)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Steps to get on the IndieWeb: Get a blog and post to it You’re on the IndieWeb!" on 2018-01-06 https://keithjgrant.com/notes/2018/01/56400/
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Zegnat Aw, I missed the family domain and non-root-domain-as-profile discussion.
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@mpbishop just signed up to this. Looks a great project, but doubt I’ll use it. #indieweb #microblog https://micro.blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/949932200081940486)
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Zegnat !tell curve25519 not only do I do all my IndieWeb things on a family domain, I even use a subdirectory instead of subdomain: https://vanderven.se/martijn/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven
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curve25519 Zegnat: nice site
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Loqi curve25519: Zegnat left you a message 2 minutes ago: not only do I do all my IndieWeb things on a family domain, I even use a subdirectory instead of subdomain: https://vanderven.se/martijn/
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Zegnat It has sometimes confused IndieWeb tech, but 99% of the time all is fine. As the argument that you might not need a domain at all.
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@voxpelli @rsms I miss the old days of the blogs (and somewhat the podcasts) where innovation could happen everywhere. I love the idea and execution of @indiewebcamp because of that – that it just documents emerging patterns in aid of the development of decentralized networks (twitter.com/_/status/949943454611771398)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Sunday Morning 2018-01-07" by carlesbellver on 2018-01-07 http://www.carlesbellver.com/blog/2018/01/07/sunday-morning-8/
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/quinnnorton/status/949978382456049664
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@quinnnorton Hi @instagram let's talk about why your algorithmic time line is stupid and aggressively ignores what people actually enjoy about your platform. This, this is stupid. https://www.instagram.com/p/BdlZpvJHVdd/ (twitter.com/_/status/949978382456049664)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/quinnnorton/status/949978386771988486
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@quinnnorton If a user hit post and your interface face said "great! you followers will see this in three to five days!" or some other arbitrary period of time, that would be honest. But you don't do that because you're pretty sure they'd come burn down your houses. That's not a bad instinct. (twitter.com/_/status/949978386771988486)
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Zegnat I am happy not to have that problem. I follow 58 people, of which maybe 10 people even post to Instagram at all. My feed is pretty much just a chronological feed.
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[kevinmarks] is it worth explaining u-like-of to this chap? https://pfrazee.hashbase.io/blog/universal-publishing-and-the-webs-black-boxes
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aaronpk I did just point him to Vouch last week
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GWG Good morning all
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[kevinmarks] i'm not sure how you can replace http with dat and html with json and call it the web tbh
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aaronpk considering implementing a "10 years ago today" feature instead of just 1 year
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[kevinmarks] hah
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[kevinmarks] I could do that
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[kevinmarks] 10 years ago today: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/statuses/2296743
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@kevinmarks Six degrees of Kevin Burton? Is that when you track AIM connections by packet sniffing? (twitter.com/_/status/2296743)
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aaronpk how about a post from your site from 10 years ago? ;-)
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[kevinmarks] http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/apple-reverses-osborne-effect.html
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aaronpk o.o "Today's iPhone announcement"?
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aaronpk oh that was 2007
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aaronpk this is 2018 now [kevinmarks] :)
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[kevinmarks] hah
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[kevinmarks] I did link to this one this week http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/identity-theft-is-not-crime.html
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/statuses/569776312
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@kevinmarks @ev Twitter is the phatic, made emphatic. (twitter.com/_/status/569776312)
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snarfed [kevinmarks]++ that's a good one. although obviously less true now than ten years ago :P
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Loqi kevinmarks has 218 karma in this channel (293 overall)
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[kevinmarks] 15 years ago: http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2003/01/fins-des-sicles.html
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[kevinmarks] 1st link there http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/760/pg760-images.html
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Zegnat I fear for the day blogspot closes, [kevinmarks]. Do you have an archive of all your blogging ready to publish on kevinmarks.com?
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[kevinmarks] not a recent one, though it is all on archive.org
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[kevinmarks] sounds like a good itch
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[kevinmarks] now I have a Fritter account. However the authors don't seem to be self-dogfooding it
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[kevinmarks] I take that back
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/taravancil/status/949447130359435264
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@taravancil So I made a #fritter profile. We made this as an example app and didn't expect to use it, but it's actually kind of fun! dat://9900f9aad4d6e79e0beb1c46333852b99829e4dfcdfa9b690eeeab3c367c1b9a/user/dat://6348fac3c70e916885ead7dce6927f01e02c0efd1a9273849891c23b7e7bac4d https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DS0dBBGUQAA2FlL.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/949447130359435264)
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taravancil [kevinmarks]: we are dogfooding it! Keep in mind we built it as a demo app
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taravancil It’s intended to demonstrate how to use some tools we built
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[kevinmarks] you didn't have a link from your website
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[kevinmarks] it is fun though
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[kevinmarks] discoverability is hard when urls look like hashes
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snarfed Zegnat [kevinmarks]: google at least has a decent record of keeping read only archives of services online after they're closed. e.g. http://answers.google.com/ , https://code.google.com/
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taravancil [kevinmarks] yeah discovery is one of the harder parts of using a p2p network. there are solutions, we just haven't implemented them yet :)
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snarfed hell, the answers read only archive has stayed online for 12y! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Answers
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taravancil i followed you in any case
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Loqi Google Answers
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Zegnat What is Fritter?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Fritter" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Fritter is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat snarfed, I don’t really expect Google to just up-and-leave either. But with all the IndieWeb ideas, it feels a little odd whenever I see [kevinmarks] share a blogspot URL ;)
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snarfed yup
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taravancil Zegnat: Fritter is a simple p2p Twitter clone that pfrazee and I built https://github.com/beakerbrowser/fritter
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[kevinmarks] Fritter is a twitter-alike web app built on [dat], so you need to use Beaker Browser to see it. More info here https://github.com/beakerbrowser/fritter
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Loqi ok
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Loqi [beakerbrowser] fritter: A peer-to-peer Twitter clone (in progress!)
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Loqi [beakerbrowser] fritter: A peer-to-peer Twitter clone (in progress!)
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snarfed [kevinmarks] could download an html archive from https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout/ and publish it on kevinmarks.com
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[kevinmarks] true
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[kevinmarks] I do that for twitter when I remember
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[kevinmarks] I'd have to mung it "Blogger data is provided in the Atom XML format."
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[kevinmarks] also, that blog is with my old google account
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snarfed https://granary.io/?input=atom :P
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[kevinmarks] or unmung
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[kevinmarks] I think 2.5M of atom feed is making them both choke
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snarfed 😂😭
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snarfed oh actually you found a unicode bug in granary. thanks!
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snarfed looking
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[kevinmarks] I get DeadlineExceededError on unmung
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: that's probably urlfetch's 15s default, you can extend that
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[kevinmarks] no, it's dying in the parser, but this is a really messed up atom file
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snarfed 😂😭
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[kevinmarks] the first entry is an escaped dump of the template for the blog
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: deployed the fix for the granary 500. thanks for finding!
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[kevinmarks] does that mean I should try again? that first post is a doozy
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/epeus_epigone.html
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snarfed i removed the first one manually
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snarfed not pretty, but looks like everything's there. needs css :P
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[kevinmarks] the settings posts are also a bit daft
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[kevinmarks] the css was in the first post, but escaped
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[kevinmarks] but it's relying on classes that aren't in the granary version
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snarfed ah yeah, those classes probably got stripped from the exported atom
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snarfed (granary doesn't modify content)
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dgold taravancil++ for all the work on beaker - of all the p2p systems I've tried, yours is the only one that makes _sense_ (to me)
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Loqi taravancil has 1 karma
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taravancil dgold i'm flattered you feel that way. our goal is to make beaker and all the apps we build on top of it as easy as possible to use
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taravancil of course we've failed on that mark countless times, but we're trying!
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@alab_AMS 11/1: Indieweb Homebrew Website Club Meeutp: Learn how to create your own website from scratch! https://indieweb.org/events/2018-01-11-homebrew-website-club#Amsterdam #inalab https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSIRJodX0AA0aRN.png (twitter.com/_/status/950087391850713088)
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devsl Hi, I need some help integrating my WordPress site with IndieWeb standards for Micro.blog
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@schnarfed @chriskrycho @microdotblog @withknown @WordPress static sites too! https://indieweb.org/static_site hell, even hosted blog silos like @tumblr, @wordpressdotcom, and @Blogger can do webmentions: https://brid.gy/about#blogs (twitter.com/_/status/950087666392956929)
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dgold hi devsl - i'm not sure there are many of the WP-mavens on just now
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devsl Oh ok
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dgold perhaps if you outlined what issues you're dealing with?
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dgold they're a _very_ helpful group of people, always willing to offer solutions to WP users
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devsl Mainly, I’m posting new posts on my website and they show up with an empty image in micro.blog
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devsl When are they usually here?
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Loqi what
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devsl I write a post on my WordPress site, that has for example: “Test” as it’s contents
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devsl and on micro.blog, it shows up as Test and an empty image below
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dgold that sounds weird
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dgold have you checked with the micro.blog community?
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dgold they run a slack specifically about WP issues
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Zegnat taravancil, [kevinmarks], I just updated https://indieweb.org/Fritter - Please do add details if you think it is a worthwhile experiment to document further!
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@chriskrycho @schnarfed @microdotblog @withknown @WordPress @tumblr @wordpressdotcom @Blogger I’m actually aware of *all* of those, and am capable of setting it up myself if I want. The point of comparison isn’t “install a WP plugin,” though: it’s “sending a tweet.” For IndieWeb stuff to work, it’s going to have to get way better at that side of things. (twitter.com/_/status/950106360892411909)
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@chriskrycho @schnarfed @microdotblog @withknown @WordPress @tumblr @wordpressdotcom @Blogger (To be clear, I say this as a fan. But also as a person very frequently confronted with “blogging is too hard” as a sentiment from really sharp folks; if blogging is too hard then IndieWeb-style blogging isn’t even worth bringing up.) (twitter.com/_/status/950106634780475393)
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@kevinmarks @chriskrycho Have you tried setting up a new twitter account recently? Got through the enforced follows and the phone number check? Sending an indieweb post, once you are set up, is as easy as sending a tweet, and it will likely send the tweet too (twitter.com/_/status/950109963573080064)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Have you tried setting up a new twitter account recently? Got through the enforced follows and the phone number check? Sending an indieweb post, once you" by Kevin Marks on 2018-01-07 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/have-you-tried-setting-up-a-new-twitter-account-recently
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Reading up on #IndieWeb. I like the idea of owning and publishing your own content. So I’m going all-in: Installing WordPress with all the IndieWeb goodness." by Tom Schenkenberg on 2017-12-27 http://www.schenkenberg.nl/2017-12-28-2006/
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@openlibrary @tmcw -- read your article https://macwright.org/2017/12/11/indieweb-reading.html. Did you see that Open Library recently launched a "Reading Log" feature http://blog.openlibrary.org/2017/12/27/a-holiday-gift-from-open-library-introducing-the-reading-log/? We'd love to hear what else we can add! (twitter.com/_/status/950132040535388160)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Today's email decentralized twitter is Fritter, built on data and the Beaker Browser https://github.com/beakerbrowser/fritter of keywords below once you install Beaker" by Kevin Marks on 2018-01-07 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/todays-email-decentralized-twitter-is-fritter-built-on-data-and
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[kevinmarks] Known's title field and autocorrect are a bad combination on mobile.
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[kevinmarks] http://doc.blog/2018/01/05/theHumanSolutionToFacebooksMachineproducedProblemsAlsoWontWork.html
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