#indieweb 2018-03-02

2018-03-02 UTC
theReal33mhz, KartikPrabhu, electronicmaji, [kevinmarks] and wolftune joined the channel
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tantek heads-up if you use Yubikey as /2FA e.g. to login to your website and Chrome as your browser: https://www.wired.com/story/chrome-yubikey-phishing-webusb/ cc: bear
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bear ouch
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tantek yeah
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leg what is social sign in
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leg what is social sign in?
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tantek Loqi?
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-03-02.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
electronicmaji, KartikPrabhu, wolftune, mrn_, ancarda, jondashkyle, taravancil, matthewtrask, bergie, pfrazee, willnorris, mattl, deathrow1, anarchivist, voxpelli, ScalaWilliam, skvist, jimpick, hook54321a, snarfed, tantek, MylesBraithwaite, mlncn, maingo, kapowaz and [eddie] joined the channel
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tantek huh - just noticed FB switched back to a globe for the notifications icon in the desktop web UI
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tantek (it was a bell for a while)
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Zegnat It has always been a globe for me on main FB. Didn't it only change on the light/mobile web version?
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[kevinmarks] A case for posse? https://twitter.com/amyngyn/status/969379273722286082?s=19
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@amyngyn a new tech women's community reached out to me for an article for their Medium collection. i would be: - writing original content - giving up the branding/control that i get from independent publishing - promoting their site on my social media in return i would get: - jackshit (twitter.com/_/status/969379273722286082)
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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sknebel good morning!
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Loqi good morning!
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jeremycherfas Hi Sven
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@pjvangarderen The IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the "corporate web". https://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/969588623514456064)
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@pjvangarderen The IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the "corporate web". https://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/969588815726891008)
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@jgmac1106 Having issues with 4.9.1 in @wordpress when using editor. On some sites I found lines to delete in function.php that ended the loopback error others recommended the "theme editor" plug-in. Need to edit header to get icons working again. #indieweb Ideas? http://bit.ly/1JzEE1p (twitter.com/_/status/969596098556911616)
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skippy is there a comparison of Known to WP, or similar platforms?
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jeremycherfas I'm not sure it would be very informative; they are rather different beasts.
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skippy in what way? that's what i'd like to understand.
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skippy i am familiar with WP. What does Known offer that WP does not? Or vice versa?
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[miklb] skippy my understanding is Known has more indieweb baked in, whereas with WordPress you need still need to do a little dance with plugins and themes.
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skippy okay. but core functionality: posting cotnent, managing content, etc, are similar? is known easier to manage? easy to update? etc etc.
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[chrisaldrich] They're both open source so you can bend both to your will.
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[chrisaldrich] WordPress is older, has more infrastructure, automatic updates, a larger, active community.
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skippy WordPress is also trying hard to be all things to all people, which brings in complexity.
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[chrisaldrich] That said sometimes known is quicker and easier to use.
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[chrisaldrich] That too.
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[chrisaldrich] Are you building for yourself or someone else?
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petermolnar_ skippy: it depends on your needs, what kind of content are you planning to post? WP is very flexible, but need to be fiddled with; Known offers much less options, but it works well as it is.
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skippy looking for myself. WP is frankyl overkill for what I would like. Known probably is, too. I dont want to manage a database; but i do find that static-only sites mean i post far less because of the cost of creating and piublishing.
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[chrisaldrich] WP offers more post types out of the box in conjunction with post kinds plugin.
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petermolnar_ static only comes with it's own rigid problems, eg receiving webmentions needs a service of some form
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skippy yes.
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skippy and posting from mobile requires more contortions.
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petermolnar_ I have a static site with a tiny daemon listening for incoming webmentions
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chrisaldrich For some context, I use both WP and Known as does jeremycherfas.
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chrisaldrich I believe petermolnar moved from WP to static in the last year or so.
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petermolnar_ I did, but I'm still managing wp sites for friends/family
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chrisaldrich What is mobile posting?
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Loqi mobile posting is the act of using a mobile device to post to a site, typically your own personal indieweb site https://indieweb.org/mobile_posting
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skippy i've used WP since pre-1.0 days, in some fashion or another.
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[miklb] I’ve been pretty pleased with the performance of my WP site using redis cache, fastcgi cache and google page speed with nginx. Obviously not for novices.
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chrisaldrich There's some useful tricks ^^ there for posting via mobile.
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[miklb] skippy may have written the post by email for WordPress if my memory serves me
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skippy i contributed some of it, at any rate.
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petermolnar_ [miklb]: that sounds like an overkill; wordpress with a cache plugin and a well configured backend (php opcache, nginx file cache, etc) should suffice
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petermolnar_ the wordpress object cache plugins all slowed down wp for me since php 5.4
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[miklb] redis is opcache, fastcgi static file cache
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petermolnar_ php opcode cache != wordpress opcache
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KartikPrabhu ok now this is #dev material
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[miklb] nods
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chrisaldrich skippy, if your goal is to post more, then perhaps your history with WP and its management/quirks, may mean you'll have less overhead and more time to post.
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[miklb] also, micropub
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skippy i'm exploring options. I've been anti-silo for a long time. I dont have a Facebook account, but I do use Twitter. I want something easy to use, easy to maintain, that doesnt require a lot of fiddling. I have been burned by WPs security woes more than once.
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skippy I'd liek to post more photos at https://skippy.is, but the static generator i use for that actually makjes it less fun and less spontaneous. I was thinking about Known for that.
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Loqi [skippy] Do you know what I want for my kids? Happiness.
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chrisaldrich While Known is pretty solid, the fact that there are fewer looking at/using Known means you may be relying a tad bit more on security through obscurity at the other end of the spectrum.
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chrisaldrich lol Loqi!
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skippy i have WP multi-site set up for my kids, though, because that's easdier for them. I could roll my content back into a new site inside that setup. The WP mobile clietn isnt awesome though.
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chrisaldrich skippy, do you use Instagram?
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skippy i do not.
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petermolnar_ how is indieweb support on grav these days?
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chrisaldrich What is Grav?
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Loqi Grav is a flat-file CMS built on PHP, with Twig templating, and YAML + Markdown for storing articles (YAML for metadata, Markdown for the content) https://indieweb.org/Grav
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skippy i should also qualify that the indieweb pieces are nice, but not critical for me. i dont intend to support comments, and i'm not overly compelled to collect webmentions at this time.
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Loqi yea
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skippy but i like what indieweb is doing, so i'm not closing those things out altogether, either.
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chrisaldrich jeremycherfas also has a Grav site as well, so he could weigh in on all three. It seems like there's been more grav-related activity lately with indieweb
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[miklb] skippy for simple image posting for WordPress from my phone, I use Quill to post via Micropub.
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chrisaldrich I'm not sure there's a great simple way of easily/quickly posting photos (specifically) on any of the three mentioned above. I typically use Instagram with micropub to WP and Known as the quickest/easiest.
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chrisaldrich miklb, I haven't done that in a while, but that's probably a good, solid choice too.
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chrisaldrich I may have to tinker with that next week.
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[miklb] at least on iOS, it uses the native photo picker to select your photo from your camera roll, so you can edit in your tool of choice on the device and then post it.
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chrisaldrich just realizes that Loqi wasn't responding to skippy's "I'd like" comment but was posting the title of his web page. Ha!
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chrisaldrich Is it worth doing a simple comparison chart of IndieWeb CMSes?
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chrisaldrich Perhaps more worthwhile for /generations 2+?
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jeremycherfas I have not seen a whole lot of interest in indieweb from the grav community, but i may have missed it. If i had never seen wp, known would be quite enough for me. To me, though, Known is much more constrained by the lack of a sizeable community and the paucity of time other people have for development.
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jeremycherfas Known handles posting photos quite well, even from iOS.
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jeremycherfas I'm honestly not sure that the effort of comparing CMS's -- even from a strctly IndieWeb perspective -- would be worthwhile chrisaldrich
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jeremycherfas So much depends more on the person and the host than on the CMS itself.
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jeremycherfas At least, that's my impression.
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@jgphilpin Once again The Onion nails the truth : Report: We Don’t Make Any Money If You Don’t Click The Fucking Link … IndieWeb is the future, your savior, your friend. https://www.theonion.com/report-we-don-t-make-any-money-if-you-don-t-click-the-1823460398 (twitter.com/_/status/969621083686088705)
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snarfed https://indieweb.org/projects
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chrisaldrich That's what I was kind of thinking jeremycherfas... they're all such different animals and there's so many ways of accomplishing things.
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chrisaldrich One also gets stuck in the trap of feature creep or the need to check off boxes just to check them off
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jeremycherfas Exactly.
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snarfed https://indieweb.org/web_hosting#Criteria is a good example of addressing that. maybe we need a similar section at the top of https://indieweb.org/projects
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chrisaldrich and checked off boxes != good UI
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jeremycherfas Paid-for Known, or a fork thereof, is, in my opinion, money lying on the sidewalk. But I cannot make it happen on my own.
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snarfed also micro.blog is arguably becoming a third gold standard indieweb CMS to recommend now, alongside wp and known
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chrisaldrich manton++ for micro.blog!
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Loqi manton has 38 karma in this channel (41 overall)
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jeremycherfas I agree @manton has done a superb job, but I see lots of confusion about what it is and why they should try it.
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chrisaldrich What are all the viewpoints one could see micro.blog as?
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chrisaldrich a stand-alone social network
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chrisaldrich a hosted CMS
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chrisaldrich A community based feed reader (for those with their own websites)
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chrisaldrich what is micro.blog?
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Loqi micro.blog is an indie microblogging platform started by Manton Reece, which supports microformats2, Webmention, and Micropub https://indieweb.org/micro.blog
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jeremycherfas I see people on the more closed but very friendly silos, notably 10C, wondering why they need m.b as well, because there is very little appreciation of the benefits of a fully IndieWeb presence. If they hve a blog, for longer posts, and 10C for social, why do they need anything else.
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jeremycherfas I don't think that the case for backfeed, for example, has been well made for those people.
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@grahamormiston @austinkleon #indieweb all the way (twitter.com/_/status/969625378951172096)
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snarfed if they already have a blog and silo accounts, i kind of agree with them
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chrisaldrich And one might think that sites like 10C, pnut, and micro.blog have high fragility since they're maintained by one person in some sense.
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snarfed we'd recommend micro.blog more if you *don't* already have a web site, and maybe aren't gen 1 etc
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chrisaldrich Yes, that definitely snarfed. Though there are many on the gen1/2 border who have a higher threshold for confustion because they aren't familiar with terminology like webmention, backfeed, etc. and making those things happen can be more involved.
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skippy i admit i dont know what micro.blog offers me, exactly. It sure *feels* like a silo from my point of view.
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chrisaldrich what is bus factor?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bus factor" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "bus factor is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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chrisaldrich hmm, I thought we'd had a page like that?
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[miklb] skippy it is in a sense, but there are export options to take your content with you and you can use your own domain name.
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snarfed yup that ^. the key point for indieweb is whether you own the domain. https://indieweb.org/web_hosting#Is_using_3rd_party_hosting_still_indieweb
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[miklb] a bit like WP.com but with webmentions and micropub and export as Jekyll
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KartikPrabhu "export as Jekyll"?
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KartikPrabhu JSON?
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[miklb] markdown with YAML front matter
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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[miklb] afaik it may have been expanded since I looked at what could be exported
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[miklb] but my understanding is hosted micro.blog is basically Jekyll under the hood
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[eddie] Correct. I believe there’s also a github pages sync option if I remember correctly
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jeremycherfas It is true, [miklb] that you CAN use your own domain name, but can you do so directly? I thought all that happened by pointing a feed at m.b
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[miklb] for someone with little to no tech experience or desire to wire it up themselves but wanting to go IndieWeb I 100% recommend micro.blog
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snarfed jeremycherfas: http://help.micro.blog/2015/custom-domains/
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jeremycherfas Thanks snarfed. I was wrong. How many Gen 3 are going to be happy playing with DNS?
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snarfed none. i don't think we're claiming custom domains on micro.blog are for gen 3 (yet)
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jeremycherfas At least they'll help do SSL for you.
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jeremycherfas No, but [miklb] came close to that, I think.
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chrisaldrich I think sites like WordPress.com and Tumblr provide solid enough support for buying domain names and DNS that gen3 could follow simple recipes for owning their domains and configuring those bits.
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[miklb] I think gen 3 are still smart enough people and domain registrars have gotten better at surfacing basic DNS settings that they can figure it out easily enough and that Manton would provide support
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snarfed yup. tumblr, wp.com, blogger, squarespace, etc are good examples of gen 3+ usable custom domain flows. http://indieweb.org/web_hosting#Custom_domain_silos
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[miklb] I mean, we are not asking them to program a remote control…
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chrisaldrich of course many of those also sell domains so that some/all of the configuration is handled on their back ends
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sknebel tumblr and blogger have the same "please configure your DNS like this" flow. I think the others allow to buy domains through them
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chrisaldrich Do we as a community have a UI standard like "as easy to set up as programming a remote control"? or "setting the time on your VCR"?
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[miklb] 😂
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[miklb] what is a VCR?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "VCR" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "VCR is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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chrisaldrich having a stated goal like this could be the equivalent of Sony's goal of putting a radio in one's pocket or Bill Gates' a computer on every desk in helping to move the needle.
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snarfed we usually think more incrementally than big bang on usability
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chrisaldrich Or JFK's man on the moon in a decade?
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[miklb] a webmention in every pot
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chrisaldrich Having a "big bang" goal can be useful, while I'll admit that it always needs to be worked on incrementally.
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Zegnat A domain for every baby?
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chrisaldrich I like that one Zegnat!
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[miklb] that is actually relevant considering how many people start FB & Twitter accounts for the children to reserve the nick
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snarfed hah yes. eg http://brookebarrett.org/
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Brooke
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Zegnat Yep. I also know a tech guy who has domains for all his kids.
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chrisaldrich Gen1 is always going to be incremental, but having a bigger marketing based goal for gen2+ could be very helpful to long term adoption of indieweb principles
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Zegnat I have also thought of buying domains as presents for friends who are having kids. Just seems like a thing to do.
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chrisaldrich I bought a domain and set up a site for a friend's baby a year ago. Need to touch base to transfer the actual ownership....
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chrisaldrich skippy mentioned having a multi-site install for his kids earlier...
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skippy https://josephineann.com and https://tessstuber.com/
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skippy wow. i goofed my own daughters domain. https://josephinemerrill.com
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chrisaldrich I recall hearing anecdotally about people searching for free domain names prior to naming their children so they could make sure they could buy the domain beforehand.
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[snarfed] um wow
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[miklb] “Dale, we can’t name our son after your Great Uncle, the domain is not available.”
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chrisaldrich https://www.godaddy.com/garage/domains-junior-buy-childs-domain-name/
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chrisaldrich https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/06/baby-names-based-on-available-domain_n_5655733.html
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KartikPrabhu that is weird thing to do
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KartikPrabhu all the John Smiths are going to be in trouble
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chrisaldrich JohnSmith243294.com is available? Would you like to purchase this while we process your birth certificate?
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KartikPrabhu ha! sounds like the start of a sci-fi short story
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chrisaldrich Domains for kids are also worthwhile for sharing content with distant relatives.
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Zegnat Anyone in my family is just getting a subdomain on the family domain, so as long as the names stay unique within the direct tree we should be fine :P
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skippy there's a plugin for WP that provides many Indieweb components, right?
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skippy ah yes https://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/
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Loqi [IndieWebCamp WordPress Outreach Club] Description The IndieWeb Plugin for WordPress helps you establish your IndieWeb identity by extending the user profile to provide rel-me and h-card fields. It also includes a bundled installer for a core set of IndieWeb-related plugins. It’s meant...
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Welcome to the IndieWeb!" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-02 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/welcome-to-the-indieweb
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[miklb] skippy that is just mostly an installer for the other plugins
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[miklb] it does provide some h-card support including a widget
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[miklb] I’ll be more than happy to share what I’m using or explain the different plugins in #wordpress
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skippy i might take you up on that. not sure how aggressively i want to go with indieweb integrations, just yet.
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[miklb] cool. You’ve got my email address as well.
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skippy aye. thanks.
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tantek good morning #indieweb
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skippy ahoy hoy
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gRegorLove o/ tantek
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tantek gRegorLove: \o (high five) :D
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gRegorLove :)
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jjuran o/\o
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tantek what is a CMS
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Loqi A content management system (often abbreviated as CMS) is software used to create, enter, edit, update, delete content on a website, even on indieweb sites https://indieweb.org/CMS
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tantek chrisaldrich, jeremycherfas comparison chart of IndieWeb CMSes ^^^ - feel free to add to it!
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tantek wow quite the punchy morning
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tantek what're y'all putting in your coffee / cereal?
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tantek VCRs, domains for babies etc.
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skippy I'm going to name all my future kids as UUIDs, to ensure i can secure their domains and reduce all ambiguity.
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Zegnat I am not sure I can advice unique(ish) names skippy, it gets annoying real quick when you keep having to provide pronunciation guides ;)
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skippy lol
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Zegnat Who is Zegnat?
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven is a long-time web tinkerer living in Sweden. Pronouns: he or they. https://vanderven.se/martijn/ https://indieweb.org/User:Vanderven.se/martijn/
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Zegnat That name has never worked in Sweden ...
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@indiescripter Great news from the team behind #Brave #browser. This could well be a game-changer for independent software, e-magazine, #OnlineEducation and other publishers of #DigitalGoods. #DigitalEconomy #indieweb fyi @QuilletteM @jordanbpeterson https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/969663680169177089 (twitter.com/_/status/969666452318863360)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Add support for acquisition kind" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-02 http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/02/support-for-acquisition-kind/
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tantek chrisaldrich - how are you displaying or otherwise doing anything differently with acquisition posts?
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[kevinmarks] I have domains for my sons
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tantek I have domains for my nephews and niece
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tantek (and Twitter handles lol)
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[kevinmarks] Though tummelvision.tv just went bad so I need to work our what's up with that, and probably make it static.
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tantek "went bad"?
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tantek what was it running?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "it running" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "it running is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek lol
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-02 http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/02/reply-to-updates-broke-query-variable-fill/
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chrisaldrich hmm... I'll have to make a tweak or two to my page for issues...
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chrisaldrich tantek, I'm not quite sure I follow your question about acquisitions.
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chrisaldrich Acquisition posts show a "shopping" cart icon next to the thing acquired as well as build a specific feed of acquisitions at http://boffosocko.com/kind/acquisition/
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chrisaldrich I've still got some work to do on them on the back end, but it's a reasonable start.
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chrisaldrich snarfed++ for backfeed on GitHub issues via Brid.gy. I just got my first one today: http://boffosocko.com/2018/02/28/first-reply-to-github-with-bridgy-publish/#comment-47091
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Loqi snarfed has 300 karma in this channel (360 overall)
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Loqi [miklb] Am I missing something? I don’t see an option for GitHub in bridgy publish
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snarfed yay!
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Loqi 😄
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snarfed oh wow that's actually surprising, backfeed to a comment. i didn't think it supported that yet.
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snarfed ...and i still don't think it. now i have to go see how that worked. emergent behavior, whee!
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tantek snarfed++ nice work, unintentional comprehensiveness :)
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Loqi snarfed has 301 karma in this channel (361 overall)
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snarfed eh it's actually a little worrisome, probably actually a bug instead of "expected" emergence
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-03-02.html
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snarfed aha. it's stripping the fragment out of the synd link, so in some ways, it sometimes thinks chris's web comment is syndicated to the github issue itself, not the github comment
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tantek oh - anyone can claim a github issue is a syndicated copy of their post?
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tantek and therefore get backfeed for it?
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tantek that's, an interesting way of working around the limitatin
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snarfed i'm not sure. bridgy doesn't go look up and backfeed arbitary silo posts it finds in synd links...but if it's already backfeeding *from* a silo post, it will include synd links it knows about
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@swentel If you see this on Twitter, then it means http://brid.gy is able to publish this from my site after sending a webmention :) #indieweb (https://realize.be/notes/1217) (twitter.com/_/status/969687313319190528)
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snarfed ...but only while backfeeding to that account already. so you'd have to synd link to someone else's post, and then also reply to it, and then yes, i think you'd get backfeed all of its responses
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snarfed (sorry, probably more detail than anyone cares about)
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tantek your reply to it could have the synd link to it
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tantek in addition to the synd link to the copy of the reply on it
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snarfed right. that's effectively how bridgy interpreted this case, due to this bug
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snarfed (btw the only github-specific part here is the bug: github is the first bridgy silo with meaningful fragments, which were wrongly ignored)
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@indiescripter Great news from the team behind @brave #browser. This could well be a game-changer for independent software, e-magazine, #OnlineEducation and other publishers of #DigitalGoods. #DigitalEconomy #indieweb fyi @QuilletteM @jordanbpeterson https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/969663680169177089 (twitter.com/_/status/969689804672614400)
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chrisaldrich I notice that when using Post Kinds via bookmarklet (with fragments) that it strips the fragment and uses the top issue url instead of the reply to the main issue I may have been replying to.
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tantek the main comment on the issue?
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chrisaldrich The main comment which constitutes the issue, yes. Then all the things below that one are replies to the top since there's really no threading on github.
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chrisaldrich I think it would be kind of cool if when I either made the main post for an issue or replied to it that I would get backfeed on all of the subsequent replies. That's essentially how Github sends notifications itself, that way you become part of the entire conversation.
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chrisaldrich I suspect you've found it already, but for the tape, here's that backfed brid.gy comment https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/github/chrisaldrich/dshanske:bridgy-publish:56/dshanske:bridgy-publish:370030214
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Loqi [miklb] Am I missing something? I don't see an option for GitHub in bridgy publish
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snarfed chrisaldrich: that's basically what happens now. intentional if you authored the issue, unintentional (but ok and will formalize) if you authored a reply. see backscroll :P
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[kevinmarks] It was hosted wordpress. Maybe time to staticise it form archive.org.
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tantek [kevinmarks]: huh? how did it "go bad" if it was hosted wp? that's, curious
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[kevinmarks] Not wordpress.com, some other host.
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chrisaldrich kevinmarks, did you document how you've staticised those sites in the past?
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tantek what is spiderpig
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Loqi Spiderpig is a web crawler for archiving a website as static HTML files https://indieweb.org/Spiderpig
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-03-02.html
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[kevinmarks] I have a fork of spiderpig which goes to the Internet Archive when stumped. I may need to cheat that further to get this back.
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[kevinmarks] I also have a tool that takes the spiderpig crawl and makes the urls relative so it can go in a directory, but I haven't made that as rigorous yet.
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-03-02.html (twitter.com/_/status/969712717035536384)
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[kevinmarks] This is on point https://twitter.com/eaton/status/969296272212586497?s=19
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@eaton One of the biggest failures of the tech industry in my generation is treating destructive patterns of targeted abuse as a context-free content categorization challenge— "objectionable language" in a specific tweet, or "referring to a distinct group" in a FB message, etc. (twitter.com/_/status/969296272212586497)
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tantek kevinmarks, except it makes the classic error of tagging all of "tech industry" with a problem that is specifically in the purview of social media silos
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[kevinmarks] True, but they are a significant and visible part of the tech industry.
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@kevinmarks @brandondurham Our chatroom is here for you https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/today#bottom (twitter.com/_/status/969716422510370816)
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tantek I'm less and less sure "tech industry" makes sense as a categorization any more
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[kevinmarks] It's a good thread
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tantek it's an ok rant that could have been summarized by: whack-a-mole approaches inside silos will never solve (defeat) harrasment campaigns systematically organized outside those silos
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