#indieweb 2018-05-04

2018-05-04 UTC
[miklb], [chrisaldrich] and tantek joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich]
I don't think I've tweaked my theme since the last time I RSVPd to something IndieWeb, but somehow the parser is missing my RSVP and u-in-reply-to: http://boffosocko.com/2018/05/03/rsvp-to-indieweb-summit-june-26-27-2018-portland-oregon/ any ideas about what I'm missing?
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[chrisaldrich]
I keep staring at it and it's not coming to me for some reason.
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tantek
[chrisaldrich]: you lost your h-entry
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tantek
(no class=h-entry on that page)
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[chrisaldrich]
hmmm... how did I manage that?
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[chrisaldrich]
pin13 shows h-entry, though perhaps as a backcompat piece... I'll see where my injected h-entry class disappeared to.
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tantek
yes the h-entry on pin13 is from backcompat treatment of the hentry, which means you'll only get hAtom hentry classnames - no mf2 properties inside backcompat roots
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tantek
though this is sounding dev-like now
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[chrisaldrich]
I kept seeing it on the parsed version, so didn't think to doublecheck it... No worries. Now that I know what's missing...
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[chrisaldrich]
thanks tanted!
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[chrisaldrich]
Tantek, I mean, naturally.
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gRegorLove
Twitter app had a full screen prompt to change password when I just opened it. Nothing on twitter.com for me, though.
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KartikPrabhu
I got a prompt on Twitter.com
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tantek
I am getting email on every account
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tantek
again. after getting email about ToS / Privacy changes
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tantek
FWIW I think it was correct of them to disclose this internal flaw
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KartikPrabhu
yes, but maybe they should have alerted Tweeters before/soon after revelaing it publically
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KartikPrabhu
not everyone reads tech-news
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steph1
hey is the homebrew club meetup a regular thing?
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aaronpk
yes! every 2 weeks in some cities, they're always posted at least on https://indieweb.org/events
thrrgilag, ajft, electronicmaji, eli_oat, renem, todrobbins, leg and steph1 joined the channel
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steph1
I was looking at Baltimore. Looks like there will be? just no info out there yet.
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gRegorLove
schmarty, when is the next HWC Baltimore?
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schmarty
gRegorLove: 5/15. I haven’t had time to make events yet
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gRegorLove
There you go, steph1 ^
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schmarty
oops, that’s what I get for IRCing on the go. Hi steph1! We
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schmarty
Will have another HWC Baltimore on Tuesday 5/15
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[kevinmarks]
Reading https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/indieweb-privacy-challenge-webmentions-backfeeds-gdpr/ I think there is a symmetry argument there that is missed. If sgreger syndicates to twitter, then people liking or retweeting it are causing it to be displayed in others' twitter feeds and notifications. If that is an accepted part of using twitter, then the "embed this tweet" function is too. Twitter is on the hook for getting consent to that, an
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[kevinmarks]
notify the user that it has happened.
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[kevinmarks]
If twitter disables tweet embedding in response to gdpr, then I think sgreger's concerns may apply.
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Loqi
Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-05-04.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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Jeena
Haha, damn, Twitter logged all the plaintext passwords before they hashed them and saved them in a database
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cweiske
github too
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Jeena
hm i didn't hear about github, should change my password there too i guess
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cweiske
no, you would have been told
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cweiske
they sent out personal messages
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@dcuthbert
Hello @github kudos due here. Many would have kept this silent and fixed it. You didn’t and that speaks volumes. If only others acted as responsibly as you. Cheers https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcLN92-WAAAZy3H.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/991581339567738880)
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Zegnat
Oh interesting. The GitHub thing wasnt on my radar either. Thanks for sharing cweiske
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KartikPrabhu
huh! I got no alert from github
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swentel
anyone seen dock.io ?
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swentel
blockchain (silo) social media attempt
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jeremycherfas
Good morning IndieWeb
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Ruxton
afternoon :)
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klez
morning :)
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Zegnat
Hellow all :)
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Ruxton
Hellowaan
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Loqi
good morning
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[colinwalker]
swentel: I keep getting invites by email but haven’t looked at it.
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jgmac1106
morning all
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skippy
May the Fourth be with you.
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petermolnar
"Live Long, and Prosper, Harry" /Gandalf, Star Wars/
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[sebsel]
wow, Twitter is even doing an overlay/popup in the iOS app about the password-thing. Even properly translated to Dutch and all.
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schmarty
jgmac1106++ for http://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/05/03/i-went-to-sketch-my-notes-on-the-smallest-openbadges ! i like the thought that you've given to the student and teacher experience of a usable badge /endorsement / /indorsements system
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Loqi
jgmac1106 has 3 karma in this channel (5 overall)
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Loqi
[Greg McVerry] I went to sketch my notes on the smallest #openbadges idea using #indieweb stuff and ended up sketching the MicroPub and MicroSub LMS I want
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jgmac1106
[schmarty] I want to see what [aaronpk] envisioned. Had a great conversation with he and [Tantek] on how to get a badge/endorsement down to just a few permalinks
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jgmac1106
I probably also got half the descriptions of MicroSub and MicroPub wrong
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[jgmac1106]
Don't know if microformats or some other kind of markup can make bots easier. Currently I have to write each script. Time consuming
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Zegnat
Define "bots"?
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[jgmac1106]
I use Dexter or Glitch to make a slack bot. Didn't have a good badge submission option. So I made a slack bot. Just a script and trigger words. Very little logic
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[jgmac1106]
But if I could make it so somebody could say a trigger word and the criteria and evidence were scraped from a target website that would be neat.
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Zegnat
Microformats could make bots easier only if they need to retrieve data from html, because that is what mf2 parsers will handle for you.
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Zegnat
That should be possible. I know at least one tool running on Glitch using the node mf2 parser.
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jeremycherfas
What is glitch?
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Loqi
Glitch (formerly Gomix, HyperDev before that) is a tool by Fog Creek Software to allow you to quickly prototype web applications in a complete IDE with built in version control, sharing, and more https://indieweb.org/Glitch
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[jgmac1106]
@zegnat hopefully this summer I can play more. Focusing first on correctly marking up the html in my courses in a way to get me ready to use mf2 parsers. It's just dumb bots now but I want to also think long term about analytics and machine learning and mf2.... But that the marathon. This summer learn to crawl
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[jgmac1106]
Stefan @fourtonshish, who runs botwiki, is real active on Glitch. I'll recruit him to help eventually
kupad, cdchapman, todrobbins, tantek, maingo, [eddie], freescholar and AngeloGladding joined the channel
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jeremycherfas
I have to go out in two minutes. Anyone got time to respond to this http://www.kimlosey.me/2018/05/04/questions-about-webmentions.html
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Loqi
To those who are part of the indieweb after spending a day trying to get my head around webmentions I have some questions. My understanding is that webmentions work only when both sites use webmentions, is this correct? How do you know if a web...
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tantek
what is webmention faq
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Loqi
The Webmention FAQ is for documenting frequently asked questions about Webmention and their answers https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq
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tantek
!tell jeremycherfas can you add the questions from http://www.kimlosey.me/2018/05/04/questions-about-webmentions.html to https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq ? Then we can iteratively respond to them there
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
To those who are part of the indieweb after spending a day trying to get my head around webmentions I have some questions. My understanding is that webmentions work only when both sites use webmentions, is this correct? How do you know if a web...
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[eddie]
Since jeremycherfas had to head out I’ll add the questions to the FAQ page
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tantek
thanks eddie! were you able to provide answers for (any of) them?
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[eddie]
Not yet, but I am planning on reading through and attempting some initial pass answers
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tantek
great! if you want review/feedback on any, go ahead and post a request in #indieweb-dev
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[eddie]
Great, will do!
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GWG
So, back to GDPR obsessions, to make people happy. Someone wants me to remove a webmention, what language on my site should I have to support that?
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GWG
Particularly if it is backfeed
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tantek
GWG, can you provide a real world example?
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tantek
and details?
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tantek
like remove content, remove author image, remove author, remove links, what?
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tantek
(some of which may make sense, e.g. asking content/author info to be removed, others may not, e.g. asking to remove a link)
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tantek
(i.e. adding a public link from to without permission is the basis of the web)
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tantek
(and courts have generally upheld that AFAIK IANAL)
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tantek
the even shorter answer is, delete the original, and webmention delete protocol should "just work" to signal your site to delete the comment etc. which you can/should respect
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GWG
I just want to explain that on my site for people to see
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GWG
That I do respect it and want to do it.
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tantek
GWG, do you have a /disclosure or ToS page?
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tantek
what is disclosure
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Loqi
A disclosure is a bit of content, typically on a home page, on an indie web site that proactively discloses some aspect about the site that the site owner wants the user to explicitly be aware of https://indieweb.org/disclosure
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tantek
you could start there
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tantek
what is a privacy policy
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Loqi
A disclosure is a bit of content, typically on a home page, on an indie web site that proactively discloses some aspect about the site that the site owner wants the user to explicitly be aware of https://indieweb.org/privacy_policy
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tantek
GWG, like I said, start with a static page for that
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tantek
then you can follow-up with dealing with hooks
KartikPrabhu, cdchapman, snarfed, renem, todrobbins, awolf and [pfefferle] joined the channel
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[pfefferle]
GWG I talked to Sebastian Greger, we can use his webmention text from his privacy policy as a start https://sebastiangreger.net/privacy-policy/
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[pfefferle]
and they plan to discuss the GDPR on the indiewebcamp düsseldorf
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[pfefferle]
```Webmentions are an explicit feature of your content management system: by sending a webmention to the webmention endpoint of this website, you request the server to take notice of that referral and process it. As long as public content is concerned (i.e. you are not sending a private webmention), such use of this website's webmention endpoint implies that you are aware of it being published.
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[pfefferle]
You can at any time request the removal of one or all webmentions originating from your website.```
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KartikPrabhu
ok great! time to switch of webmentions too
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[pfefferle]
at least for the webmention plugin for wordpress
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KartikPrabhu
I'm really not dealing with requests to delete stuff
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snarfed
google i/o is next tues-thurs, some of the web talks look relevant to us: https://events.google.com/io/schedule/?section=may-8&topic=web&type=sessions
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snarfed
(maybe for #-dev)
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Zegnat
[pfefferle], I actually wrote to sgreger about that text. Because you do not know if a webmention came from the publishing CMS or not. He actually changed how he handles webmentions (per his GDPR article) but that doesn’t seem to have made it into his privacy policy yet
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Zegnat
sgreger will only be “accepting mentions from sites that make use of Webmentions themselves; that way, I can safely argue that the sending user was aware of the implications.” – https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/indieweb-privacy-challenge-webmentions-backfeeds-gdpr/
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snarfed
ethics are good for us to think about...but i kinda feel like we overthink the legal part of GDPR here
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tantek
Zegnat, sorta? I more agree with snarfed
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tantek
in general, don't worry about something that's public on the web as long as you attribute and link to the original
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tantek
if an author asks you to remove their content, respect their request
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snarfed
and for legal concerns, in practice, almost all of what we're doing here is tiny personal web sites, which realistically will never get sued or anything similar
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tantek
I think that's about it
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[pfefferle]
I also think it is a good start and we should start with best guess
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tantek
however I will stick to keeping links to public things on the web
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tantek
because that is an important principle to uphold for the web
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Zegnat
I should really find the examples of all those “mommy-bloggers” getting letters from lawyers in Germany to show that some people in some countries might need to heed it more than others
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snarfed
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 234 karma in this channel (432 overall)
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snarfed
all of our GDPR legal hand wringing would be better spent on UX etc
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Zegnat
On the other hand, I personally do not worry too much, but I do not display webmentions anyway
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tantek
snarfed, agreed
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snarfed
(er, our time spent on...)
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tantek
Zegnat, if you're really worried, write up very polite and kind /disclosure page
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[pfefferle]
how big is the chance, that someone finds an article that mentions my post, sends a manual webmention and then the original author sues me…
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Zegnat
PRobably close to zero, unless lawyers start doing it out of spite.
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Zegnat
Then again, didn’t lawyers already send letters to german bloggers out of spite if they didn’t disclose their living addresses on the impressum pages? ;)
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tantek
IDK did they? citations?
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snarfed
mmm tasty FUD
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[pfefferle]
@Zegnat but then they have to link me first and add microformats too… at least something good 😉
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tantek
what is impressum
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Loqi
An Impressum is a disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website that appears to be required by laws in some countries https://indieweb.org/Impressum
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tantek
Zegnat ^^^ feel free to add citations
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tantek
otherwise like snarfed, meh to the FUD
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snarfed
(and even if it has happened, the chances of it happening more widely, or to any of us, remain very low to zero)
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tantek
exactly
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tantek
for that reason, see what I said in #Indieweb-meta about advantage of being more "under the radar"
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Zegnat
That’s why I said I should look up those mommy bloggers one of these days. Because I have a pretty clear recolection of reading about it. I might have a bit of a search this weekend.
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snarfed
at the risk of stereotyping: engineers and technicaly types like to think about the law because it's usually a big fine grained complicated set of rules, which we're comfortable with and attraced to...but it's not a good use of our time. (usually.)
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snarfed
(wow i can't type today)
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[pfefferle]
I do not think a layer wants to understand what webmentions are and exactly how they work… they will start sueing bloggers that have no privacy policy page
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tantek
snarfed - so true. classic obsessing over unlikely-to-be-relevant details
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tantek
generalized effect similar to bikeshedding
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snarfed
[pfefferle]: they will start suing bloggers *who have big enough commercial blogs and money* that have no privacy policy page
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[pfefferle]
true 🙂
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snarfed
so, *not us*
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[pfefferle]
so I am out 🙂
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tantek
either way, if you even *hear* of anything like that happening, send it to EFF
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tantek
so they can make an example of such nonsense abusers
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tantek
one or two examples like that, and the lawyers will be too afraid to be embarrassed in future suits
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tantek
fear tends to be a strong motivator in that profession
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Loqi
Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-05-04.html
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "Skip to content Chris Aldrich Musings of a Modern Day Cyberneticist Menu About Website Philosophy & Structure ..." http://boffosocko.com/2018/05/01/a-pencast-overview-with-audio-and-recorded-visual-diagrams-of-indieweb-technologies/
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "A pencast overview (with audio and recorded visual diagrams) of IndieWeb technologies" https://boffosocko.com/2018/05/01/a-pencast-overview-with-audio-and-recorded-visual-diagrams-of-indieweb-technologies/
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[chrisaldrich]
Gah... how did that get submitted twice in two different ways?
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[chrisaldrich]
aaronpk, is there a way to delete the malformed one quickly?
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aaronpk
http vs https
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aaronpk
i don't think it supports delete webmentiosn but i can hack it
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[chrisaldrich]
but my site is only http, how would it have generated an https version?
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[chrisaldrich]
I should know better minutes before newsletter time...
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aaronpk
it loads over https just fine
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[chrisaldrich]
that was quick...
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Loqi
aaronpk has 552 karma in this channel (1629 overall)
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[chrisaldrich]
If i remember correctly, I thought it couldn't take the same URL twice anyway, but one would overwrite the prior?
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aaronpk
but those were two different URLs
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[chrisaldrich]
If they were different URLs then I'm really confused since they both originated from the same page...
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aaronpk
it looks like your site is set up to serve both http and https without redirecting one to the other
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aaronpk
so every post has two URLs
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Zegnat
Is there a rel-canonical that can be deduped on?
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[chrisaldrich]
I'll have to dig into that... and to my knowledge I didn't know I had https, since I haven't upgraded yet... Maybe time to spelunk into some WordPress core to see what's actually happening, particularly since I haven't seen that behavior before.
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aaronpk
it says the cert has been around since october!
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aaronpk
i wonder how that got created without you knowing!
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[chrisaldrich]
perhaps the host did it without saying anything? It's been on my list to do for a while, particularly so I can more easily use some of the stuff in Simple Location that GWG built that requires https...
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tantek
[chrisaldrich]: which webhost?
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[chrisaldrich]
and if it's there, it would be nice to have the auto-redirect from the http to https
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[chrisaldrich]
this site is on 1&1
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[chrisaldrich]
I know they provide at least one cert in the package for free, but I've never spent the time to set it up and do redirects.
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[chrisaldrich]
Now, I suppose the question is how best to do redirects?
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[chrisaldrich]
What is https?
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Loqi
HTTPS is an abbreviation for Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure, a form of HTTP where the communication is encrypted https://indieweb.org/HTTPS
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Loqi
Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2018-05-04.html
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "I believe in the IndieWeb. It needs to believe in itself." http://fogknife.com/2018-05-04-i-believe-in-the-indieweb-it-needs-to-believe-in-itself.html
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tantek
jmac: ^^^
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jmac
Woo I pressed the button
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jmac
15 minutes too late
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jmac
Or 7 days too early
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chrisaldrich
jmac, I've been in that boat so many times...
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[pfefferle]
[chrisaldrich] I work for 1&1, let me know if I can help in any way
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[chrisaldrich]
Thanks [pfefferle], I think I initially chose it because I knew you worked there. 🙂
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[chrisaldrich]
Not sure how the cert was set up, but I suspect the easiest thing to do is add a redirect from http to https in .htaccess?
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[pfefferle]
Is it a Managed WordPress?
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[chrisaldrich]
shared server I think
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[pfefferle]
Yes, but Managed WordPress Ort Classic WordPress Installation?
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[chrisaldrich]
I ftp'd and set it all up myself originally
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[pfefferle]
Ok, then no managed 😉
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[pfefferle]
Then htaccess is the best way, yes
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[chrisaldrich]
I see a snippet for doing WP admin redirects on the /https page, but does anyone know where I could cut and paste something simple before I start googling around?
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[chrisaldrich]
Ha! That's what I expect I'd have come up with... thanks [pfefferle]!
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[chrisaldrich]
In fact I think I'd bookmarked that a while back when GWG's simple location required https in the browser to secure things for location lookup.
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chrisaldrich
and here, I thought it was going to be much more painful to switch over to https...
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chrisaldrich
thinks I should wait to make sure it all works first... but knocking on wood....
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[pfefferle]
What domain do you try to update?
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[miklb]
hmm. Indigenious trips up authenticating with my 2fa OTP
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aaronpk
is that a wordpress plugin?
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aaronpk
i wonder if the indieauth plugin needs to account for that somehow
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[miklb]
I’m seeing this in my debug.log after updating the indieauth plugin to master Undefined index: indieauth_authorization_endpoint
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[miklb]
class-indieauth-authenticate.php on line 390
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[miklb]
That might explain why Omnibear hangs on the retrieving the auth token as well. Quill seemed fine though.
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aaronpk
-> #indieweb-wordpress and pinging GWG
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[miklb]
yep, actually thought I was in #wordpress
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