2019-03-14 UTC
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# 01:16 [tantek] [jgmac1106] ^^^ I'm interested in your opinion of it - what's it like for you writing with it. hemingwayapp.com [jgmac1106] joined the channel
# 01:20 [jgmac1106] I will pilot this for a bit, it looks cool, grade level reading always dubious but a good indicator mickael-kerjean8, wolftune, iasai, tw2113 and gRegorLove joined the channel
# 01:56 [tantek] I myself have posted RSVPs to events on sites even if the site doesn't support webmentions or lacks h-event # 01:56 [jgmac1106] I am going to change my "yes" to "I just RSVP'd" or "I am going to" may add a drop down of options # 01:57 Loqi [Greg McVerry] Yes: A meeting with SCSU’s Graduate Coordinators, hosted by President Joe Bertolino and Provost Robert Prezant, will take place from 1:00-2:30 P.M. on Monday, March 18, 2019 in the ASC Theatre. # 01:57 GWG The question is, should I add it as an event to my site? # 01:57 GWG If I attend an event, should I have my own event URL? # 01:57 GWG I've never really thought much about it. # 01:57 GWG Because I don't do much eventing. # 01:57 GWG My RSVP usually has a summary of the event details # 01:58 GWG I could enhance the RSVP to display time and location, which it doesn't now eli_oat, gRegorLove and iasai joined the channel
# 02:05 Loqi [gRegor Morrill] I’m attending “San Diego Green Drinks: Turning Citizens into Scientists” on February 21, 2019 6:00pm # 02:06 gRegorLove I've started including minimal h-event info in them too. At some point I want to extract those and show them in my calendar. # 02:29 GWG So, going with that theme, for my uses, I'm probably better off enhancing RSVP than working on event posts as I rarely organize events. iasai, eli_oat and jjuran joined the channel
# 03:49 GWG Curious. What is the meaning of an h-event nested inside an h-event? snarfed, iasai and gRegorLove joined the channel
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# 04:54 gRegorLove Don't think there's any consumers of it yet but it makes sense # 04:55 GWG I was looking at my consumption code anth_x joined the channel
# 04:58 GWG I was defining a collection post as one with multiple h-entry children rEnr3n, KartikPrabhu, iasai, gRegorLove_, nnode, mickael-kerjean8, cweiske, AkyRhO, barpthewire and jihaisse joined the channel
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# 08:07 AkyRhO Good morning Zegnat cweiske joined the channel
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# 08:42 AkyRhO just my usual work, nothing indieweb related sadly rEnr3n joined the channel
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# 10:21 [jgmac1106] Gwg maybe like a conference or an agenda? The IWC is an event and then each session would be a child event # 10:21 [jgmac1106] I would start with single non repeating event, then add repeating # 10:34 [jgmac1106] Ohh?? I wouldn't worry about it or treat it like you would any child... This is getting devy # 10:34 [jgmac1106] .. Though now I am looking at CSS Grid calendars and want to start listing events using that UI.... iasai joined the channel
# 10:45 GWG Displaying minimum event info in an RSVP # 10:46 [jgmac1106] Then even if you had events within events you would have to RSVP to each.. Which eachwould be its own post nnode joined the channel
# 11:02 GWG I am going to display minimal event info in RSVP post, so I needed to pull it from the event it's responding to # 11:04 GWG I decided after the discussion last night that it would be something I used more than straight event posting iasai and [Rose] joined the channel
# 11:27 [jgmac1106] I am not working on anything big till New Haven when I want to finish my guestbook, profile, photo gallery, and now calendar.... Guess I have enough tasks for two years iasai joined the channel
# 11:46 GWG My goal right now, which I just decided that I would quickly do last night is improve my RSVPs to contain the date and location of the event. # 12:11 [Rose] Right now, how I can discreetly nap at work 😉 # 12:12 [Rose] Secondly, how I can set up a mailing list that I host myself that is user friendly, I'll probably go with Sendy, MailTrain is installed right now - but I don't really like it iasai joined the channel
# 12:14 GWG I have been wanting to replace the mailing list service I am grandfathered in on with something that I do myself. # 12:15 GWG Probably doing the mailing list part with a mail service, but handling the content generation myself # 12:15 [Rose] Sendy is written in PHP, one time payment and it uses Amazon to send the emails which is pretty cheap - and they're obviously a trusted sender # 12:16 [Rose] One forum I host I also host a mail server for to send email, and every so often it gets blacklisted by a mail hoster (usually GMX) and fixing it is a pain in the next # 12:17 GWG The service I want to replicate allows someone's reply to a post sent by email to be a comment. # 12:18 GWG Postmatic has sort of abandoned that product # 12:18 [Rose] I want to have an online archive of all of these newsletters, for searching purposes. # 12:18 [Rose] I wonder if simply building in a "reply with this form" would be a good first step? User friendly, and easier to program # 12:19 GWG [Rose]: That was my plan someday. But you may notice I have a lot of big dreams # 12:19 [Rose] Big dreams are good! But if you're like me you're also lacking time # 12:20 [Rose] Tell me about it, this weekend was going to be wonderful, sleep, and IndieWebify my new website, until I realised that this is the weekend a friend is here from Israel to visit - and I forgot about it # 12:21 [Rose] (I did remember in time to pick her up from the airport though) # 12:21 GWG That's good if they're visiting y5 # 12:21 [Rose] She's not staying with me, but I still want her to feel welcome # 12:24 GWG Last weekend all of you convinced me to do a minimal event display. But last night, as I mentioned if you scroll up, I realized that I don't organize many events, so improving RSVPs is probably higher on my list # 12:24 GWG But I started the week thinking that I was going to do some work on Webmentions # 12:25 [Rose] GWG++ (I think my exclamation mark ruined it when I tried it last weekend) # 12:25 Loqi GWG has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (172 in all channels) # 12:25 GWG I also did itinerary and fixed food # 12:26 GWG My goal was to support all aaronpk Micropub products # 12:26 [Rose] Is this increasing or decreasing the single point of Aaron? # 12:26 GWG I figured that gives me time on my own posting UI # 12:27 GWG I did it at IWC Austin so I could demo profiles in a Micropub app # 12:27 GWG Although right now, aaronpk is on holiday # 12:28 GWG I also have 3 PRs waiting for review by someone elsewhere. # 12:30 [Rose] I can read this stuff, but can't approve it of course 😛 # 12:31 GWG I'm trying to make Indieauth more approachable in the readme # 12:31 [Rose] When I'm not falling asleep at my desk at work, I shall endeavour to comment! # 12:32 GWG I have the hardest time with good documentation sometimes [jgmac1106] joined the channel
# 12:36 [jgmac1106] technically gwg you have organized IWC NYC 2018/2014 and IWC Online.....so you organize plenty of events # 12:41 GWG jgmac1106, but the indieevent is rarely posted on my site # 12:42 [jgmac1106] Still say HWC Queens culd be a thing...an 1.5 into Manhattan is crazy for you # 12:42 GWG I think he is the only one who was there who is still around on a regular basis. # 12:42 GWG jgmac1106, I should ask you to send me the contact details # 12:45 [jgmac1106] I remoted into 2014 first for a hot minute or did an HWC NYC in 2015, haven't been able to track down answer. iasai joined the channel
# 12:54 GWG Just take my url and replace the first . with an @ eli_oat, jeremych_, [frank], [keithjgrant], anth_x2 and iasai joined the channel
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# 16:49 [tantek] My display: 1. tells you whose tweets I liked, and 2. is much more compact than Monocle! (Auto-collapsing of sequential likes of the same person’s tweets, and auto-collapsing of sequential likes overall!) # 16:49 [tantek] That was some serious text design work and coding to make that work! # 16:51 [tantek] [schmarty] definitely open to suggested design improvements! KartikPrabhu and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
# 16:55 [jgmac1106] [tantek] I actually like the view and Indigineous as I see whose tweet you liked which influences if I actually click on it. # 16:59 GWG I just hate clicking through to Twitter. The experience there is not good for me [eddie] joined the channel
# 17:04 [eddie] Yeah, I think the point is not knowing what the tweet said unless we click through to the twitter link # 17:04 [eddie] not that I have any room to talk because my site does the same thing # 17:04 GWG I always store context around any URL # 17:05 [eddie] Yeah, I have that on my todo list, and hopefully tantek does as well 🙂 # 17:06 GWG To use aaronpk's term for it, I xray everything # 17:08 [tantek] Showing the whole thing that was liked can be a bit much too, I mean if that was the intent of the author, they would have reposted the thing instead of liking it wolftune joined the channel
# 17:09 [tantek] I might consider some sort of progressive disclosure technique like tooltip summary, if there was an accessible way to do so (maybe abbr with title?) # 17:11 [tantek] So if you hover over the “tweet” or URL or datetime stamp, you would see a tooltip if maybe the first 100 or so chars of the tweet that was liked. Again, assuming there’s an accessible and touch-UI-friendly way of doing it # 17:12 [tantek] Kartik does that work inline like in the display of my likes that [schmarty] posted a screenshot of? # 17:13 [tantek] I was trying to keep it at the display / UI interaction level here # 17:15 snarfed [tantek] [eddie]: alternatively consider just not putting your likes on your home page feed. eg people commonly complain about silo algorithmic feeds showing them their friends' likes instead of just their posts, right? # 17:15 snarfed if both likes and reposts are in your main feed, there's not much user-visible distinction between them # 17:16 snarfed (...having said that, this is indieweb, vive la difference!) # 17:16 [eddie] snarfed: That's true. My likes are not on my homepage # 17:17 GWG I need to add that filter to exclude a list of post types from a feed # 17:17 [eddie] But I do think reply contexts for likes are helpful. I think a repost signals "I find this interesting for others" and likes signal "I find this interesting for myself" # 17:18 [eddie] but that doesn't mean I don't want to see the context of the thing the person found "interesting for themself" # 17:19 Loqi [Marty McGuire] Me: [scrolling through posts in Monocle, the IndieWeb reader]
Monocle:
Me: I don't want to open up 8 tabs for Twitter. I'll just visit Tantek's homepage where I bet he shows these tweets in full context.
tantek.com:
😂 # 17:20 GWG I think Aaronpk said Microsub contexts were a future feature he thought about # 17:21 [tantek] Right. The inline display is my answer to snarfed’s either or artificial dichotomy of show the whole thing or show nothing # 17:21 snarfed whoa no i only questioned putting them on your home page feed, not how much context to show # 17:23 [tantek] Which I think may be confusing the display discussion here # 17:24 [eddie] If you like a tweet, the contents of that tweet are context, IMO # 17:24 [tantek] I think it’s correct to put minimalist versions like that in a homepage feed, and then readers can have UI prefs (or choose themselves) whether to show “like” posts from people you’re following or not # 17:24 [tantek] Much better that than encouraging people to self-censor or self-minimize # 17:25 [eddie] That's true a lot of this won't matter when/if we build Microsub servers that actually fetch the contents of the posts that are liked/reposted/etc # 17:25 [eddie] Which I believe is a goal just a technical challenge # 17:26 snarfed yup, again, one of indieweb's great strengths is that everyone gets to choose how their own site looks and behaves. eddie and i don't choose to show our likes in our main feeds or home pages, but you do, and both are ok! # 17:26 [tantek] Microsub readers can tell that something is a like post without fetching any contents # 17:26 [eddie] tantek the problem is for people like schmarty and I that enjoy seeing likes in our readers # 17:26 [tantek] So my suggestion stands. Fix it in the readers rather than pressure every publisher to not put likes on their home page # 17:27 [eddie] and I don't think the core issue was ever you having likes on your homepage tantek # 17:27 [eddie] lol but obviously you might not want to display that on your homepage # 17:27 [eddie] so the burden should definitely be on the readers # 17:27 snarfed another alternative is encouraging people to have prominent "likes" (etc) feeds that readers can subscribe to in addition to the home feed # 17:27 [tantek] snarfed made it about including likes on homepage feeds 😜 # 17:28 Loqi alternatives has 1 karma over the last year # 17:28 [tantek] Nope nope nope - making users/readers worry about managing multiple feeds per person already killed legacy feed reader UIs # 17:29 [tantek] Seriously that’s a bad UX path. Don’t make users have to do even more “feed management” # 17:30 snarfed hah ok. UX-wise, disabling likes in lots of feeds vs subscribing to lots of extra feeds both seem like work...but yeah i get the feed mgmt problem # 17:30 [tantek] I said as an overall pref whether you want to see likes at all in your reader, which readers could default off # 17:31 [eddie] Most people will only ever use one channel in their reader # 17:31 [jgmac1106] Yeah but I do get people who want to follow my feeds my frequently used hashtag in my footer gets followed alot # 17:31 [eddie] so allow people to set preferences on what they want to see in a channel, most people that will equal their entire experience # 17:31 [eddie] pro users can then have filtered subsets in their different channels # 17:32 [tantek] Eddie I’m saying we should encourage a publisher / reader ecosystem that makes it *easier* (less work, maintenance, fiddling) for *both* publishers and reader *users* # 17:32 Loqi easier has 1 karma over the last year # 17:32 [tantek] Easier for publisher: just one home feed, everything in it # 17:32 [eddie] and if you want a subset of things on your homepage, like with rel=alternate to an all feed? # 17:33 [jgmac1106] Not if you are prolific following my firehouse drives people crazy # 17:33 snarfed ok so then interesting question: i chose not to show my likes, replies, etc on my home page. if my readers want to see them, how should they do that without following additional feeds? # 17:33 [tantek] Easier for reader user: reader shows primary author posts by default only, has opt-in options to show replies, reposts, likes, etc. for everyone or you can enable just a few people # 17:33 [jgmac1106] I don't show all my feeds on my homepage either. I unlist reviews and food, iasai joined the channel
# 17:34 [eddie] I think it makes sense to default to primary author posts by default # 17:34 [tantek] Snarfed, your home page pref is also sensible. So if you wanted to provide more you could provide a “all.html” feed for folks to subscribe to instead # 17:34 [tantek] Pretty sure that’s in h-feed Brainstorming or if not we should add it # 17:35 [jgmac1106] But I deliberately publish an article feed, a blog feed, and then like 42 other specialized feeds but teachers are used to crazy rss readers with sub folders and categories and all the bells # 17:36 [tantek] No one *likes* managing crazy rss readers with sub folders and categories and such # 17:36 [tantek] It’s a compulsive behavior for a small minority, and everyone else just skips it and gives up on RSS because the readers were overdesigned for that minority # 17:36 [eddie] I'm moving to dev for some practical next steps on moving toward this # 17:37 [tantek] [jgmac1106] sounds like you’re doing lots of extra publishing work. # 17:37 [jgmac1106] I need to make a following page... Which should be a good indicator it is too hard to follow you... Shouldn't take a page of directions # 17:37 [tantek] I’m curious of the use-cases for each and the users if any for each [grantcodes] joined the channel
# 17:37 [jgmac1106] Not sure I don't do any analytics on purpose.. Just want to write for an audience of one... People come along fine # 17:38 [tantek] Right if you need a page of directions as a publisher then you’re doing something wrong # 17:38 [jgmac1106] No my words that is what I meant. Don't want reader stats distorting why I write gRegorLove_ joined the channel
# 17:40 [tantek] Or if you prefer like snarfed (which is a great default pref), only put your primary author posts in your “main”/home feed and put everything in a separate “all” feed # 17:40 [tantek] That’s it. Doesn’t need to be any more complex than that # 17:40 [jgmac1106] I have heard from many people though they don't want my firehose. In terms of alternative feeds it is usually the hashtags in my footer # 17:40 [eddie] I think the reason we have seperate feeds (me included) is a lack of reader support # 17:41 [jgmac1106] But when we run events we specifically ask people NOT to share their entire feed but make a specific category or tag for the event # 17:41 [eddie] I create different feeds because there is no easy reader support to say "follow me" and easily filter what I post # 17:42 [eddie] Is a post that I listened to a podcast or played a game on my Nintendo Switch an original post? # 17:42 [eddie] what about where I checked in or what I ate or drank? # 17:43 [eddie] That makes sense, and that is what makes up my "timeline" feed which is where I link people who try to follow eddiehinkle.com # 17:43 [jgmac1106] Yeah I added my feeds in my h-card on my homepage and then even more finely grade hashtags to follow on my blog # 17:43 [tantek] Pretty sure that’s what snarfed puts in his homepage: original active posts only # 17:44 [tantek] [jgmac1106] burdening your reader users with the paradox of choice *just on your own site* is also unfriendly UX [schmarty] joined the channel
# 17:44 [schmarty] tantek: i really like the minimal text inline version of your post # 17:44 [schmarty] but i had no way of knowing what the collection of tweets was about without clicking through # 17:45 [eddie] I don't think we will change any publishing behaviors until we continue to move our readers forward # 17:45 [eddie] looks at himself that hasn't published a new version of Indigenous in awhile # 17:46 [schmarty] ultimately my takeaway was a summary like "tantek liked a collection of tweets, many of which were people wishing him a happy birthday" # 17:46 [schmarty] i didn't mean to infer that i found the design bad, just that it subverted my expectations about how my reader works and # 17:47 [tantek] [schmarty] would tooktips of tweet content have helped? # 17:47 [tantek] [schmarty]++ for causing a good ecosystem UX discussion blow up 😂😂 # 17:47 Loqi [schmarty] has 15 karma in this channel over the last year (67 in all channels) # 17:48 [tantek] [schmarty] when you see ......... under some text do you know that means it’s typically an abbreviation and there’s more? # 17:48 [schmarty] my apologies if my post came off as dunking or similarly negative 😬 # 17:49 [schmarty] tantek: i am trained in that particular web UX thing for abbreviations, yeah! # 17:49 [tantek] Right so a solution which automatically showed the ...... under text with tooltips might have helped then # 17:50 [tantek] (And side dev note, <abbr title> default styles with that ...... under the element text) # 17:52 [grantcodes] I don't know if indigenous renders refs, but likes and reposts and stuff look really good in together if the server has parsed the appropriate ref # 17:53 [eddie] grantcodes the appropriate ref was the origination of our discussion with tantek 🙂 # 17:55 [grantcodes] Yeah sure, gold standard for me is twitter feeds via granary. They end up looking great iasai joined the channel
# 17:58 [eddie] Yeah, i follow those as well. They turn out excellent # 18:01 [jgmac1106] I was just thinking this morning about making my "Twitter Elite" list and just cap it at the 30 or so people I really want to follow aalmazan and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 18:18 [jgmac1106] But for me someone in my edu307 class doesn't want to follow my edu407 class...but only 2.3% of my students add a reader. Most just use our class planet # 18:22 Zegnat If the class planet uses your feed that is still a consumer though iasai and leg joined the channel
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# 19:48 [tantek] Eddie in the screenshot I show whose tweet I'm liking, not just the tweet URL # 19:48 [tantek] Which "feed" do you mean "His feed did not provide any more than the url"? nnode and [eddie] joined the channel
# 20:07 [eddie] tantek only the url is the only machine readable thing about it for a reader # 20:07 [eddie] that is what I meant. so a Reader server only provides the url currently, and no additional details # 20:07 [eddie] although, you are right, you do present more information visually on your website iasai joined the channel
# 20:51 [tantek] a-ha so maybe that’s a dev question then. If I were to markup a minimal author of the thing I liked inline in the feed iasai, [kevinmarks], [grantcodes], [eddie] and micro joined the channel
# 21:50 [eddie] Yeah that definitely would be an incremental improvement DenSchub, [tantek], iasai, [schmarty], snarfed1, [eddie], [kevinmarks] and gRegorLove joined the channel
[jgmac1106] I will pilot this for a bit, it looks cool, grade level reading always dubious but a good indicator
[tantek] GWG, see /rsvp#IndieWeb_Examples
gRegorLove I post RSVPs to some meetup.com events: https://gregorlove.com/2019/02/im-attending-san-diego-green/
AkyRhO Good morning Zegnat
Loqi [indienews] New post: "First stable release of the IndieWeb module for Drupal 8" https://realize.be/blog/first-stable-release-indieweb-module-drupal-8
GWG I need someone to review a doc change so I can push it. https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth/pull/132
[schmarty] hashtag IndieWeb hashtag lyfe https://martymcgui.re/2019/03/14/112052/
KartikPrabhu [tantek]: <details> <summary>
[grantcodes] I don't know if indigenous renders refs, but likes and reposts and stuff look really good in together if the server has parsed the appropriate ref