#indieweb 2019-03-18

2019-03-18 UTC
tw2113, iasai, KartikPrabhu, wolftune, snarfed, [eddie], [asuh], [Rose], deathrow1, JasonO, barpthewire, rEnr3n, jihaisse, cweiske and chrisaldrich joined the channel; tw2113 left the channel
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chrisaldrich site-deaths << https://twitter.com/waxpancake/status/1107442118643994624
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/waxpancake/status/1107442118643994624" to the "See Also" section of /site-deaths https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=58266&oldid=58185
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chrisaldrich site-deaths << https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/b2381s/myspace_lost_all_music_uploaded_from_2003_to_2015/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/b2381s/myspace_lost_all_music_uploaded_from_2003_to_2015/" to the "See Also" section of /site-deaths https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=58267&oldid=58266
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
iasai, [kevinmarks], AkyRhO, catsup, friedcell, [Rose], rEnr3n, [aaronpk], [jgmac1106], pierrolunaire, KartikPrabhu and eli_oat joined the channel; friedcell left the channel
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[kevinmarks] have we gathered info about migrating a site to static? https://twitter.com/vmbrasseur/status/1107460042054209536
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jmac Cool, Vicky is good people. (I do not have any link ideas.)
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[cleverdevil] Vicky *is* good people. I almost recommended Micro.blog to her based upon Manton’s successful migration of his very large WordPress site. But, I think that would violate the spirit of her request 😀
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[jgmac1106] All the WP plugins I would recommend we're already recommended
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[kevinmarks] did manton write about it? send her that link
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/ceejbot/status/1107643682050564096
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@ceejbot Let us henceforth reserve "content generation" to describe the process of making things that some surveillance advertising broker is going to make money from. If you're putting it on your own blog, it's called "writing". (twitter.com/_/status/1107643682050564096)
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[cleverdevil] He did [kevinmarks] - https://www.manton.org/2018/07/08/migrated-mantonorg-to.html
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Loqi Migrated manton.org to Micro.blog hosting
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[cleverdevil] But, it’s light on technical details. I don’t know if it would be helpful to Vicky other than it being a recommendation for the platform.
iasai, botka, adactio, swalladge, wolftune, aalmazan, [schmarty], kraftbj, eli_oat, davy__, davy_, KartikPrabhu, davyht, snarfed, bkardell, gRegorLove, [Rose], jackjamieson and francoscarpa joined the channel
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francoscarpa Hi all, nice to meet you and the IndieWeb community! 😊
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jeremycherfas Hello francoscarpa what is your url?
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francoscarpa It's [https://www.francoscarpa.com/]
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francoscarpa Sorry, https://www.francoscarpa.com/
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jeremycherfas Ah si. Ho fatto un Like si sup Twitter sta mattina.
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jeremycherfas Vivo a Roma, ma sono inglese e non parlo bene l’italiano.
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jeremycherfas Sei a Venezia, vero?
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francoscarpa Sìsì
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francoscarpa Sono di Venezia. Grazie mille per il like! Se preferisci possiamo parlare in inglese.
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jeremycherfas E mio preferito, ma devo migliorare il mio Italiano.
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jeremycherfas Forse sara meglio per gli altri qui dentro in inglese, anche perche autocorrect non capisce l’italiano.
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[frank] Crossposting myself from #chat: In better news, the location for IWC Utrecht is set. We will be at the offices of Shoppagina.nl, a small company with a SaaS solution to build your own webshop. Website, registrationform and Indieweb-RSVP thingamajiggy is coming up asap. I will update the wiki later tonight.
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sknebel Yay
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Loqi woot
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sknebel Frank++
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Loqi Frank has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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[tantek] 🎉
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jacky ooh that sounds cool!
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[tantek] who here enters alt text when they post an image (like a photo) to their own site, and could you provide an example thereof?
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[tantek] like actual useful alt text, not something barely relevant like "a jpg" (self-deprecating example)
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jmac [tantek]: I always do, when possible. A recent example: http://fogknife.com/2019-02-09-i-played-return-of-the-obra-dinn.html
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jmac I wrote some alt-text for the photo of a ship I used as illustration thee
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jmac *there
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jmac I try to make the alt-text a literal description of what the image depicts, separate from what might be its caption
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[schmarty] i have started doing it but have a long way to go
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[schmarty] i did on this post: https://martymcgui.re/2019/03/14/112052/
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Loqi [Marty McGuire] Me: [scrolling through posts in Monocle, the IndieWeb reader] Monocle: Me: I don't want to open up 8 tabs for Twitter. I'll just visit Tantek's homepage where I bet he shows these tweets in full context. tantek.com: 😂
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[tantek] lolol thanks schmarty++
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Loqi schmarty has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (68 in all channels)
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[tantek] jmac++
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Loqi jmac has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (19 in all channels)
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[tantek] schmarty, I take exception to the "website similarly has no context for these tweets" in your alt text - as your alt text quotes, I do provide at least the *author* @-name context for those tweets!
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[tantek] it may be minimal and insufficient, but it's not no context! 😛
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[schmarty] lol
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[schmarty] i will update
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[tantek] (seriously worked hard to at least provide that!)
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[tantek] (and I know I need to enhance the mf2 there to surface that author @-name context into the parsed mf2 so h-feed readers can see it too)
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[schmarty] updated!
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[tantek] much thanks!
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[tantek] I do want to help encourage everyone with the notion that even small / incremental improvements are good / count, are worthy of recognition
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[tantek] The more we can lower the barrier to helping folks with a regular habit of updating / improving their personal sites, the better
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[tantek] schmarty what UI do you use for uploading/attaching an image to a post and then entering the alt text for it?
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[schmarty] for that one i used the quill editor and then added the alts by hand after the fact.
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[tantek] same question for you jmac, did you author that HTML with img and alt by hand, or do you use a UI of some sort to upload/attach images to your blog post and enter alt text for them?
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[tantek] [schmarty] did you add the alts "by hand" into the HTML of your post, or some other format (Markdown? Does Markdown even support alt text on images?) or UI?
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[tantek] asking for inspiration and to minimize re-invention
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[schmarty] they're edited into the HTML. markdown does support alt text on images!
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[tantek] I know markdown supports *title*/hover text on images, but hadn't seen anyone do alt on images
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[schmarty] oh, i guess that depends on what your converter does with the text in there 😕
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[schmarty] i have always used and assumed it to be for alt rather than title.
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jmac [tantek]: Attaching media to my posts is mostly manual, for me. I have a streamlined and very personalized setup where I pop the image onto dropbox under a name I choose, then in my post source I whistle up a BBEdit "clipping" that plops in an apropos blob of <figure> or <img> HTML with placeholders, which I then proceed to fill in.
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jmac I realize this is weird and "Uhhh wait how do I add images" is the #1 extremely reasonable question I get from Plerd users who are not me
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jmac I used to use Markdown syntax for images but I am too picky about wanting to float it or add margins or captions, so I just use raw HTML for 'em
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[tantek] thanks jmac. makes sense.
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[tantek] [schmarty] found it. Markdown does allow *both* alt text and title text on images: https://www.markdownguide.org/basic-syntax/#images-1
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[schmarty] i also saw some markdown compiler that allowed attributes (like class) but i forget the syntax.
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[schmarty] it's a bit of a mess.
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[schmarty] i'm glad that alt is the default
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[tantek] now whether that's support in various Markdown formatters, who knows. It's not documented in GitHub's Markdown documentation: https://guides.github.com/features/mastering-markdown/ though it is apparently in the GitHub Markdown "spec" https://github.github.com/gfm/#images
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gRegorLove Mine is fairly manual as well, though I can't find any examples where I've used alt lately. I'll make a note to do so with my photos.
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gRegorLove Upload photo in the CMS uploader tool, insert it into the post, use the CMS `source` edit tool
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[tantek] Probably worth documenting these in /alt as example real world UIs for entering alt text
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[tantek] however suboptimal, worth capturing / documenting current state of the art so we can also build upon it, iteratively improve it etc.
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] I have a few different alt text img ideas. Been asking [arush] for help and guidance
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[jgmac1106] Not ideas mean examples. For UI examples nothing beats Mastodon currently
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[schmarty] quill's note editor allows for alt texts pretty easily but i don't think my micropub endpoint supports them.
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[tantek] oh? that would be worth capturing a screenshot of, with perhaps sample alt text being entered
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[jgmac1106] Yeah I will and on video too... Mastodon community takes alt text quite seriously. It's a nice hover effect
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[tantek] uh, hover is title text, not alt. conflating them can be harmful
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[tantek] also hover effects don't work (are not accessible - to anyone AFAIK) on touch devices like mobile phones, ipads etc.
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[tantek] hence I've been loathe to use "title=" text for anything since it excludes many (perhaps majority of?) readers
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[jgmac1106] No misunderstand, when you upload media if you hover it you get an input field with a bit of opacity to add the alt text
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[jgmac1106] Not the id property sorry for confusion... Will take screen shots... And remember alt text
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[jgmac1106] I do say I don't know how it works with the wiki and file upload.
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[jgmac1106] My fault for not learning
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[tantek] so how do you "hover it" when uploading media from your mobile touch device?
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[jgmac1106] Not sure I use a third party client for mobile
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[tantek] so how does that third party client allow you to add alt text when you upload media on your mobile?
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[jgmac1106] You know... Not sure I ever tried. Been seeking advice from IndieWeb screen reader users on microblog... Will check Tusky... my client
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[jgmac1106] Uses a fig caption it looks like.. That also causes confusion. If I include a caption what do I put in alt text?
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[tantek] caption is not the same as alt. there must be a separate UI from alt distinct from caption; the caption is intended to be visible *in addition* to the image itself. whereas the alt is only displayed *instead of* the image
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jmac Right.
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jmac On http://fogknife.com/2019-02-09-i-played-return-of-the-obra-dinn.html, the caption is the title of the photo, and its owner and CC information. The alt text is (paraphrasing) "This is a photo of a boat."
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[tantek] has anyone ever put multiline alt text on their images?
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[tantek] looks like linebreaks inside of an alt attribute actually work to display in a browser as line breaks (with explicit white-space:pre on the img) when the image source is missing! e.g. http://jsfiddle.net/Madmartigan/S8SXP/
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[tantek] so it's *possible* to do, just curious if anyone is actually publishing multiline alt text, and if so, how did you enter it (e.g. editing HTML directly or something else)
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[jgmac1106] https://micro.blog/arush/2666910
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Loqi [arush] @jgmac1106 YOur alt text should be brief and to the point, so it should contain a lot less than your paragraph description. For example, if you were selling clothing, and you spent a paragraph describing/marketing the clothing, and your image was of ...
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[jgmac1106] https://micro.blog/hope/1208670
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Loqi [hope] @jgmac1106 As in it may not validate if you don't put the alt text in, but having the descriptions in the title is still a way of doing it.
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gRegorLove The guidelines we've quoted on /alt have been the easiest for me to remember. "Use alt text that makes sense when read out loud along with the context of any text before, and any text after the image.
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gRegorLove "
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[tantek] Agreed [gRegorLove]
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gRegorLove I think screen readers say "graphic" (or "image") before reading the alt text. So "photo of" may not be a good start of the alt text.
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[tantek] Hmm, I wouldn't assume that unless that's been documented somewhere. Haven't seen any alt authoring advice anywhere that says "assume the screen reader starts with 'graphic' or 'image' before reading your alt text outloud"
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gRegorLove JAWS says "graphic"
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[tantek] in that case "Graphic photo of ..." doesn't sound bad
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[tantek] nor does "Graphic screenshot of ..."
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[tantek] thus "photo of" or "screenshot of" still works just fine
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[tantek] as the start of alt text
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gRegorLove I think it sounds redundant. WebAIM recommends (typically) avoiding it https://webaim.org/techniques/alttext/#context
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gRegorLove Though they mention "image of" and "graphic of", not "photo of"
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gRegorLove I can see it being useful if you're distinguishing a painting from a photo
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[tantek] from a screenshot
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gRegorLove Yeah. On my photos page which has a heading of "Photos" I would leave it out.
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[tantek] that seems reasonable
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