#indieweb 2019-03-19

2019-03-19 UTC
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[kevinmarks] "graphic photo of" sounds like a content warning
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[cleverdevil] Hello IndieWeb! 👋
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[cleverdevil] On an airplane for the second time today and catching up on things.
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GWG Hi, [cleverdevil]
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[cleverdevil] Hey @GWG!
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[cleverdevil] I’m speaking at the next AWS Summit on home automation 😀
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[cleverdevil] Notably on my connected BBQ grill.
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GWG [cleverdevil]: Fun
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[aaronpk] lol yes "graphic photo of" sounds like something you don't want to have read aloud
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[jgmac1106] graphic photo of connected BBQ grill....is a picture that shouldn't exist
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[tantek] most BBQ grill photos (in action) are quite graphic from a vegetarian perspective
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[Rose] Morning indieweb
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[aaronpk] Good morning!
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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jeremycherfas Good morning [Rose] and [Aaronpk]
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[jgmac1106] Good morning
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Loqi happy day
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jeremycherfas And to you [jgmac1106]
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GWG Morning all
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[frank] Is there an official IndieWeb logo? Or just the IWC one?
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aaronpk Just the IWC one
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[tantek] Ok I allowed misdirection a bit in the alt conversation (from do you / with what UI, to how you should or should not write a good alt)
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[tantek] So I’ll re-ask directly to the folks who spoke up:
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] [kevinmarks] [aaronpk] do you yourself put alt text on photos you post on your site, and if so, what UI do you use to enter them?
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[tantek] (Seriously not looking for, well I know other software/service has a UI. Just care about what you are doing on your own site, that’s the ultimate litmus test)
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[tantek] So far, *everyone* who said they add alt text (yesterday) do so by editing their HTML (that’s their UI), most after they’ve used some actual UI to make the post (thus an explicit second step, *after* publishing, in a different UI)
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[Rose] Oh, I also add alt text, but I add it in the Markdown which I send to my site
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[tantek] Whoa a first!
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[Rose] Sorry, I missed the conversation yesterday, apparently this virus is affecting me more than I thought 🙂
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[tantek] Oh no sorry to hear and hope you feel better soon
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[Rose] I'm sure I will! The doctor is pumping me full of things to treat my symptoms
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[Rose] In good news, I have plenty of time to work on IW things 😄
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[tantek] Could you add an example of yours to /alt#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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[tantek] Also have you memorized the markdown image alt syntax or do you have to look it up when you use it? (And how long did/does that take, in either case)
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[Rose] I write ![alt text](imageref) and done
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[Rose] No thoughts required 😄
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[Rose] But I modified my CSS I think, I need to check
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[Rose] (Or maybe the twig)
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[tantek] Right so you’ve memorized the ![]() sequence. Any idea how many weeks/months/years that took? Or maybe how many posts?
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[Rose] None, it's the same syntax as for links
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[tantek] Except the !
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[Rose] Which probably took me 10 minutes to learn a few years ago, just have to add the !
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[tantek] Good to know!
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[Rose] Yeah, I really like Markdown, there are a few niggles, but in general it's pretty good.
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[tantek] You’re lucky. There’s some evidence that it frustrates people too: https://twitter.com/evilgaywitch/status/512364997469409280
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@evilgaywitch It’s really rather impressive how much time I spent trying to find the right superset of Markdown and the right editor. (twitter.com/_/status/512364997469409280)
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[tantek] And (pardon the quoting of expletive), https://twitter.com/evilgaywitch/status/512365234623758336
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@evilgaywitch Only so many times you can forget how the fuck to do a link before you just use raw HTML (twitter.com/_/status/512365234623758336)
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[tantek] So some folks can easily remember the Markdown link syntax, and some frustratingly cannot.
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[Rose] Interesting, I ran with plain Markdown for years no problem, and then "upgraded" to multimarkdown because that's what Grav supports. I never thought about looking for a specific sub variant.
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[tantek] Maybe there’s a threshold of initial usage or frequency of usage that one needs to get over before it becomes easy/natural and “no thoughts required”
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jeremycherfas Sorry [tantek] I got distracted. Like [Rose], I try to add an informative alt-text, and I do it right in the Markdown post creator. If I'm composing in the Grav backend, it creates the link for you and I add the alt text in the markdown (along with {.left} etc for alignment.
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jeremycherfas If I am composing in Byword, more often, I'll add directly to the markdown by hand. I have a Textexpander link, but to be honest I often forget to use that that.
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jeremycherfas Here is an example, but beware, it contains images that could be graphic for a vegetarian. https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/eating-a-legend
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[tantek] Thanks jeremycherfas (my iPod now autocompletes your name!)
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[tantek] Would you also consider adding yourself to /alt#IndieWeb_Examples?
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jeremycherfas Yay! Also, the thing I find most frustrating in Markdown is the different flavours for footnotes. Everything else I find entirely natural.
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Loqi woot
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jeremycherfas Sure
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[tantek] Also do you always add alt text to your photos? As in is the markdown (UI) easy / simple enough that you “just do it” or does it require you to think/remember “extra”?
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[tantek] Ah you said “entirely natural”
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jeremycherfas I try to remember to do it, but I couldn't hand on heart say "always".
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[tantek] Can you note that in your example? The UIs you use (markdown, Grav, Byword, Textpander)
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[tantek] This is all very helpful for considering alternative alt UIs (as it were)
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[kevinmarks] If I do it, it is by hand in html. I don't remember in twitter or Instagram.
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[tantek] E.g. I felt the MD link & image syntaxes were too noisy (for me) in terms of their (ab)use of punctuation that I decided to just autolink and autoembed plain URLs instead in my text notes
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[tantek] So to embed a gif:
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[tantek] example.com/foo.gif
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[tantek] ![](example.com/foo.gif)
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[tantek] instead of
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jeremycherfas Hey [tantek] What's the wiki version of backticks?
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[tantek] So I’m thinking of extending that for alt text like this:
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[tantek] example.com/foo.gif (a foo example)
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[tantek] Instead of
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[tantek] ![a foo example](example.com/foo.gif)
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jeremycherfas I never post images to Twitter outside of a POSSE and I never add alt-text to IG. I didn't even know you could.
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[tantek] And before unleashing this on the default CASSIS autolinker/autoembedder, looking for any feedback.
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[tantek] People’s experiences with MD as a UI for alt text are obviously illuminating here.
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[tantek] Jeremycherfas do your POSSE posts to twitter with images also propagate your alt text? That would be a great example to add!
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jeremycherfas I have absolutely no idea.
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[tantek] You can check an example by view source on the posse tweet copy and searching for your alt text
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jeremycherfas Most of my POSSE to twitter come from WP blogs, where I am much less careful, but not entirely negligent of, about alt text.
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[Rose] As a note: I struggled to memorise the HTML syntax for images and links when I got started with it
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[tantek] Rose do you mean src vs href or something else?
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[Rose] Yes, those.
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[jgmac1106] I will go in look on my main Domain I write in HTML so words are my UI...not sure about Known... I should look.. I add in description but I do not know if that becomes alt text or ID... Shame on me
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jeremycherfas I still have trouble with HTML for images.
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[tantek] I have past the threshold of having to think to type HTML (it’s all memorized), and yet, I find it just enough extra work that I prefer to write plain text notes that can be read and used as-is without any weird perl-like punctuation.
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[tantek] This is what led me down the /autolink /autoembed path and now to the proposal to add alt text via a parenthetical remark after an image URL
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[tantek] *passed the threshold
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[tantek] (Perl-like punctuation: what I think MD link & image syntax looks like)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] I’m convinced that “write in HTML” is both too inaccessible to too many people.
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[tantek] Frankly even for those of us proficient with HTML, writing in it is just enough of an annoyingly different cognitive task that for me at least it detracts from the creative act of writing itself
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[tantek] (Interestingly, wiki-link/heading syntax doesn’t bother me in either the MD or HTML ways noted above but perhaps that’s an odd exception)
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[jgmac1106] I agree. It is just my UI right now
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[tantek] You’re not alone 😂
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[tantek] Alright since no one has found anything objectionable, nor advocated for a better alternative, I’m going to implement this and see how it works in practice: https://chat.indieweb.org/2019-03-19/1553002892934000
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Loqi [[tantek]] example.com/foo.gif (a foo example)
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[tantek] To auto embed as
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[tantek] <img src="http://example.com/foo.gif" alt="a foo example" />
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jmac Starking a bit from last night, but: I'm on a committee with accessibility experts, including screen reader users. Would it be useful to y'all for me to ask them how best to word alt-text? (And whether "Graphic: photo of..." is confusing, or whatever.)
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[schmarty] tantek: I think it sounds great to try out!
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[tantek] Not really no. Plenty of material on that already.
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jmac okie doke
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[tantek] What would be useful is to ask them how they themselves publish images, photos etc with alt text.
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[tantek] What tools and UI do they use on what personal sites (or other)?
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[tantek] What *accessible* tools and/or UIs do they themselves use to publish their images, photos etc with alt text?
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[tantek] And if they don’t publish then that’s useful to know too
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jmac It's a good question... the committee is all about accessibility aware technology (if not independent personal websites, per se) so I'll see if I can sneak the question in
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[tantek] (TLDR: if you’re not actually publishing, then it’s not clear how any advice about how to write something to publish is any good, because you’re not actually following or using your own advice in practice)
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[tantek] Publishing *anywhere*, independent websites or elsewhere though obviously the former is preferred
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[tantek] I believe the expression(s) to keep in mind here is don’t armchair quarterback, backseat drive, etc
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[tantek] jmac, to be clear, advice about writing good wording is useful, but only secondarily to the accessible tools to do the writing in the first place
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[jgmac1106] https://gist.github.com/jgmac1106/30c769bb41e690562e90d7fbc5340d15
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[jgmac1106] that is the photo post type from Known, it converts the post title into alt text.....I won't be using the photo post type until I can figure out a solution
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[jgmac1106] photo title != alt text
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[jgmac1106] you get no UI field for adding alt=text
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[jgmac1106] when I use the article (which means TinyMCE WYSIWYG) you add an image description that becomes alt text..which is better....but I would add an a UI clue that this becomes alt tex
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[jgmac1106] the first photo in an article does not syndicate to twitter so can't check that , let syndicate the photo post and see what happens
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[jgmac1106] and no alt text syndicates to Twitter from a photo post where the title becomes the alt text.....
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[tantek] Ouch that sounds like it’s worth filing an issue about
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[tantek] Jeremycherfas you asked something about backticks, what's the use case you're trying to solve?
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jeremycherfas Quoting something that could be code in the wiki, In my recent addition to /alt
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[kevinmarks] One space indent is code on the wiki I think.
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chrisaldrich jeremycherfas, I don't think I've ever used backticks on the wiki (in the same way that GitHub allows). An alternate method (for inline use) is to use the <code> tag the way that Chris does on that same page (as an example).
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jeremycherfas OK, I'll look at that
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[tantek] Oof backticks for code seem like quite the abuse of punctuation.
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[tantek] jeremycherfas the best I've come up with is code comments as demarcation for code blocks http://tantek.com/w/Markdown#Blocksofcodereasoning
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[tantek] I don't have a good answer for inline code snippets / mentions
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jeremycherfas Can I just say that I find remembering Markdown codes is way eaiser than the wiki codes. Probably because I use them more often.
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[tantek] On the wiki I use <code> as [chrisaldrich] noted, which works ok inline but has the downside of remembering HTML. For code blocks I do that and wrap it in a <pre> I think
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jeremycherfas Never seen a backtick used for whatever a backtick is supposed to be used for.
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[tantek] It's supposed to be used for a nested close quote
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[Rose] <pre> is the HTML standard for embedding code blocks I think
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[tantek] Close. <pre> just means preformatted text. Which can be code or poetry with random whitespace etc
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[Rose] Makes sense
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[Rose] No-one at work has complained about my use of it yet, thankfully
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[tantek] The closest HTML has for a "standard" for code blocks is
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[tantek] <pre><code> ... </code></pre>
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jmac FWIW I use backpacks in Markdown all the time for inline code? E.g. "Look for a directory called `documentation/`."
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[tantek] Wtf slack
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jmac Makes it come out looking all monospaced and computery. And oops Slack will jump in and try to do something with it too, won't it
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[tantek] TIL don't try typing markup into slack text UI
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jmac er, bakcticks, not backpacks
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[jgmac1106] This is great https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/19/any-page-that-needs-its-own-nav
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[jgmac1106] Oops
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[jgmac1106] https://gomakethings.com/we-are-actively-destroying-the-web/
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jeremycherfas Instead of a single curly quote? Not in my world.
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[tantek] jeremycherfas sorry you're right, I was confused.
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jeremycherfas No problem.
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gRegorLove Yeah, Slack does the Github markdown thing with backticks. Monospaced text for inline code blocks.
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jacky hmm
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jacky I was kinda expecting https://spec.indieweb.org/ to point _directly_ to the spec for Webmentions
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jacky it does for Micropub and WebSub
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jacky is this in a repo somewhere? open to patch :)
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[schmarty] jacky: https://github.com/indieweb/spec.indieweb.org/
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jacky nice thanks!
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jacky glances at https://neocities.org/
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jacky what is neocities
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Loqi NeoCities is a free website hosting silo in the spirit of defunct silo GeoCities (Yahoo shutdown in 2009) that looks like a stepping stone to getting started on the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/NeoCities
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[schmarty] ❤ neocities
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snarfed
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jgmac1106 here you go schmarty is every like a bookmark? and ratings: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/19/is-every-like-a-bookmark-or-every
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Is every like a bookmark or every bookmark a like? I might want to bookmark an image gallery that captures the pains of Jim Crow in the United States but I DO NOT want to "like" the gallery. Might want a different word than like. Maybe a light bu...
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[schmarty] [jgmac1106] I am running away from that discussion very fast
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[schmarty] Learned my lesson from last IWCNYC
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jgmac1106 what I originally wrote but in chat: "Is every like a bookmark?" is a trigger phrase in IndieWeb crowd....also used a a Rickroll that can ruin conversation or quiet working working hour
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jgmac1106 but fascinating post on how they are going to try and develop an algorithimc stream using taxonomy, folksonomy, and number of likes
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jgmac1106 every OER platform I have worked on has struggled with tagging and dicovery
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[tantek] [schmarty] 😂 😂 😂 just don't ping GWG about it. Oops. 😉
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[jgmac1106] hee hee
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jacky wait
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jacky are bookmarks and likes that similar?
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[tantek] goes back to the dev channel
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jacky ah
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[chrisaldrich] jacky, here are some thoughts I wrote on it a while back https://boffosocko.com/2018/03/10/thoughts-on-linkblogs-bookmarks-reads-likes-favorites-follows-and-related-links/ Every one can have their own opinion...
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[chrisaldrich] And we all know that the /chicken post reigns supreme. So maybe 🔖 < ♥ < 🐔? ;)
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[tantek] IDK if chicken has a reply aspect
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[schmarty] marty mcfly would differ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTDCEiBeVAY
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chrisaldrich Some mathematicians use chicken noises as "responses" within proofs. Examples in the wild: https://twitter.com/andrewmchilds/status/708271931930382336 and https://twitter.com/virtualcourtney/status/1095090662079451136
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GWG Oops?
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[tantek] 🐔
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GWG Ain't nobody here but us chickens?
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[tantek] schmarty++
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Loqi schmarty has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (69 in all channels)
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