#indieweb 2019-06-27

2019-06-27 UTC
manfred7381[m], jimpick, mattl, Ruxton, __4matter_, zoglesby, grdryn[m], Xananax[m], is0x3F, Marjon[m], kyl, vasilakisfil, michel_v, Crimson and electronicmaji joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu what's changed about the twitter posting UI? I am still seeing the same
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[chrisaldrich] I tok a screen shot of it earlier, but I'm away from my desk at the moment. [snarfed] mentioned it looked like a toy earlier... May be the case that they're slowly rolling out or a/b testing too.
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[chrisaldrich] I do like that they're making it more obvious that they have bookmark functionality.
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KartikPrabhu yeah I might have gotten the "b" side since I don't tweet too much
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[chrisaldrich] I think I may have to go back to using custom urls to read my timeline though. https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=filter%3Afollows%20-filter%3Areplies&src=typeahead_click&f=live
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[Michael_Beckwit [chrisaldrich] been slowly but surely working my way through the podcast
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[chrisaldrich] [Michael_Beckwith] my sincere apologies ;)
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[Michael_Beckwit my only complaint is that sometimes it seems i can’t hear david as well
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[Michael_Beckwit volumes are off balance
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[chrisaldrich] We should record together in person...
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Loqi definitely
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[Michael_Beckwit name idea: “PodPub: The premier Indieweb Podcast”
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[Michael_Beckwit and something tells me you’re the only podcast on the topic
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[Michael_Beckwit oh hey, “This Week In The IndieWeb Audio Edition”
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[Michael_Beckwit but yeah, pretty much you two alone on this one
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/podcasts_about_the_indieweb
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[kimberlyhirsh] There are tools to even voices out... I use Levelator.
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[Jamey_Sharp] oh nice, fluffy's blog post about the 'distinction between the actions of "following" vs. "subscribing" to content' is a good description of what I want to chat with folks about this weekend. thanks, fluffy!
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[Jamey_Sharp] I'd love it if folks would play with my demo of a feed reader that's designed for the kind of long-form content fluffy's talking about "subscribing" to: http://reader.minilop.net/
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[Michael_Beckwit i stand corrected [aaronpk] 🙂
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[Michael_Beckwit speaking of [chrisaldrich] this got published today https://wordpress.tv/2019/06/26/chris-aldrich-micropub-and-wordpress-custom-posting-applications/
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[chrisaldrich] 🎉
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[Michael_Beckwit something for the socko
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[chrisaldrich] They sent me a private link last week, but I hadn't gotten the follow up that it was live yet....
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[Michael_Beckwit i subscribe to the .tv RSS feed 😄
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GWG Something to watch on the plane
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: Here's a youtube.com version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpEAHL6_KZk for those that may prefer it or who want to strip out the audio with huffduffer and view the slides (lower bandwidth for flights)
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[Michael_Beckwit one of the nice things about wordpress.tv is that they offer the video files for direct download, with various qualities
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I appreciate the support, but that talk is probably far under your level... 😉
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[Michael_Beckwit refresher talks never hurt, unless you’re always strapped for time
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GWG chrisaldrich, I want to see how you explain it to the lay people
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GWG I know a little about Micropub for WordPress already.
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[chrisaldrich] In GWG's case, he wrote most of the code, though his reason ^^ is probably pretty solid...
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GWG Rewrote
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GWG snarfed did the original
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (83 in all channels)
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[chrisaldrich] GWG++ for the rewrite that included the WordPress API
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Loqi GWG has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (168 in all channels)
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[Michael_Beckwit either of you able to shed some insight on my question here? https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/archives/C03QR2B4R/p1561612483026200
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[chrisaldrich] Both sides don't need Webmention...
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[chrisaldrich] Ideally the receiving site has them or it's not worth the sender's time.
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[chrisaldrich] But the sender can use manual methods if their CMS doesn't have the ability.
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Loqi GWG, [chrisaldrich]: can you move this conversation to #indieweb-dev to keep this channel more inclusive and inviting?
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[Michael_Beckwit fine with me
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[chrisaldrich] I'm not planning on getting that technical, and this is relatively basic...
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[chrisaldrich] For some of the manual methods, this is a pretty good primer: https://aaronparecki.com/2018/06/30/11/your-first-webmention
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Sending your First Webmention from Scratch
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[Michael_Beckwit will read
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[Michael_Beckwit i get the overarching idea of pingbacks/trackbacks/webmentions, but at least at the moment, my disconnect is how a given site would know to send the request to the destination, if they didn’t have a setup of some sort
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[chrisaldrich] What was your website [Michael_Beckwith]
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[Michael_Beckwit i’ll use https://michaelbox.net for this
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[Michael_Beckwit let me check on pingback enabled support quick
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[Michael_Beckwit i have no webmentions at the moment, still researching 😄
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[chrisaldrich] I send Webmention notifications to lots of sites that don't support receiving them. Generally in those cases, I either manually cut and paste the comment to their native comment section or I @mention them on other services like Twitter, etc.
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[Michael_Beckwit just as an out there example, if i somehow got my domain mentioned in an amazon.com review, i wouldn’t expect anything from it
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[chrisaldrich] If you don't have them, you can sign up for https://webmention.io/ as a service and use that as a third party receiver.
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[chrisaldrich] Nope you shouldn't expect them from Amazon, but you could manually force one with a manual method.
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[Michael_Beckwit plotting to install the WP plugin as early as this weekend
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[chrisaldrich] http://sendawebmention.com/ will let you input a source and a target.
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[Michael_Beckwit site down maybe? it’s not finding anything
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[chrisaldrich] Also might try http://mention-tech.appspot.com/
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[Michael_Beckwit that said, and it will likely answer my questions enough for the moment. in some cases, it may just be a little bit extra effort to send one
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[chrisaldrich] Did aaronpk let sendawebmention.com expire? Good for him for letting domains go!
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KartikPrabhu I send webmentions manually
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[chrisaldrich] sendawebmention was just a redirect to https://telegraph.p3k.io/send-a-webmention anyway...
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[chrisaldrich] It was just an easier URL to remember than the telegraph one.
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[Michael_Beckwit makes sense
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[Michael_Beckwit thanks for taking some time to answer my questions btw 😄
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[chrisaldrich] Ask away, that's what we're all here for.
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KartikPrabhu people receiving webmentions can also include a form in their posts for senders to use
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aaronpk Oops maybe I should renew it
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aaronpk i forgot that it was expiring
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[chrisaldrich] The Webmention plugin for WordPress will include a box on each post, but you can also use urls like https://boffosocko.com/wp-json/webmention/1.0/endpoint
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[Michael_Beckwit i’m kind of mulling over the idea of testing the webmentions and semantic linkback plugins on the latest WP and issue a PR to the repos to get those “tested up to” values updated
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[Michael_Beckwit i say do it aaron
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[chrisaldrich] What are manual webmentions?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "manual webmentions" yet. Would you like to create it?_Y (Or just say "manual webmentions is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG We can fix that. Just due for a new version
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[chrisaldrich] manual webmentions are Webmention#Manual_Webmentions
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Loqi ok
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[chrisaldrich] that was a total fail....
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[chrisaldrich] my ability to speak Loqi is failing lately.
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[Michael_Beckwit i keep forgetting loqi is a bot
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[chrisaldrich] [Jamey_Sharp] You can add that following/subscribing idea to /2019/Session_proposals as a reminder if you like.
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[Jamey_Sharp] I think I already did?
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[Jamey_Sharp] about a half hour ago 🙂
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[chrisaldrich] apologies... I haven't been watching the meta channel... 😉
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[Jamey_Sharp] but I got confused and frustrated at the (lack of) documentation around the instructions on that page
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[Jamey_Sharp] I didn't expect writing down my `{{name}}` to be the difficult part of proposing a session
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[chrisaldrich] If you don't have a template for your {{name}} yet you can use [www.example.com YourName] instead.
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[chrisaldrich] What is wikifying?
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Loqi wikifying is the practice of capturing information and ideas on the wiki https://indieweb.org/wikifying
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[Jamey_Sharp] yeah, the wikifying page is a big part of the problem
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[Jamey_Sharp] as I said on #meta, "https://indieweb.org/sparkline#IndieWeb_Examples links to https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Setup_a_nickname_with_a_small_h-card_template but that section heading no longer exists; while https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Step_Four:_Add_a_sparkline says "Visit the template to add a sparkline" with a link right back to https://indieweb.org/sparkline#IndieWeb_Examples"
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[Jamey_Sharp] so I tried to follow the documentation and it took me in circles
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[chrisaldrich] When I made mine, I roughly copied https://indieweb.org/Template:t but obviously gave it my name/data
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[Jamey_Sharp] also, the sparkline thing didn't make sense to me because I didn't want to think about linking a photo in alongside my name, and also because those are not sparklines? I don't understand why they're called that here
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[chrisaldrich] Looks like someone changed the heading names. It's moved to /wikifying#Step_Four:_Add_a_sparkline
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[chrisaldrich] I'll update the broken link....
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[chrisaldrich] You can create a template without a photo if you prefer
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[Jamey_Sharp] yeah, I did.
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[chrisaldrich] [Jamey_Sharp]++
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Loqi [Jamey_Sharp] has 1 karma over the last year
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[Jamey_Sharp] it was just a frustrating 20 minutes of following links in circles until I managed to find enough clues to look at what Jacky did
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[Michael_Beckwit bed time for me, night everyone
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[chrisaldrich] [Jamey_Sharp] I've updated those couple of pages, so they should now point to the correct resources.
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[chrisaldrich] I suspect the page you really needed was: https://indieweb.org/Template:sparkline
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[chrisaldrich] Sorry for the trouble, but thanks for reporting it.
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[chrisaldrich] Goodnight [Michael_Beckwith]
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Loqi laila tov!
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[Jamey_Sharp] [chrisaldrich]++
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Loqi [chrisaldrich] has 18 karma in this channel over the last year (42 in all channels)
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[Jamey_Sharp] Thanks Chris, those edits would have saved me quite a bit of grief. I still claim none of this should be called a "sparkline" but I don't care enough about that 🙂
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[Jamey_Sharp] after watching my error logs for http://reader.minilop.net/, I've made error-reporting a bit better. you all are throwing a lot of not-Atom, not-RSS pages at a thing that specifically says, right on the form, that it only supports Atom and RSS and doesn't implement feed auto-discovery, and that's fine but the resulting error messages are kind of boring... although some of you are triggering more surprising errors, like that https://snarfed.com
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[Jamey_Sharp] 'tlsv1 alert internal error', and boffosocko.com doesn't correctly XML-escape its icon URL in Atom output (`http://www.feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fboffosocko.com%2Ffeed%2Fatom%2F`)
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Loqi [Jamey_Sharp]: it seems like this conversation is more appropriate for #indieweb-dev
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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[jgmac1106] Jamey_Sharp++ for feedback on wikify page. We want to make that as easy as possible
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Loqi Jamey_Sharp has 2 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] It isn't
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[jgmac1106] not sure where that came typo accident
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jacky g'morning IndieWeb
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[smerrill] hallo
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Untangling the IndieWeb" https://davidyat.es/2019/06/24/indieweb/ (from https://aaronparecki.com/2019/06/27/1/)
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jacky that post is interesting
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jacky namely:
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[Jamey_Sharp] thanks [jgmac1106]!
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jacky > The wiki feels a bit disorganised sometimes, with a number of clearly draft-level pages.3 I also think it sometimes focus on examples to the detriment of explanatory content. Without this additional site I don’t think I would have been able to even get started implementing any of this stuff.
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jacky lol the reference to fan wikis is interesting
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jacky I never considered that but it's true
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jacky you can read a page on there for a TV show and never have to watch it to have the same level of knowledge on said show
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jacky TIL about https://terraria.gamepedia.com/Terraria_Wiki
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jacky it feels a bit noisy
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jacky s/feels/seems/g
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[tantek] It's interesting to see the perspective that people expect the wiki to be a done/mature resource they can just use, rather than the collective current state of community discussions and agreements
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[Jamey_Sharp] I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable thing to want?
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[tantek] I think it is unreasonable to want a done/mature resource for free by volunteers
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[tantek] or *expect*. that almost(?) smells of entitlement
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[Jamey_Sharp] That's fair, but then it'd be unreasonable to expect people to adopt any of this stuff without a certain level of documentation maturity.
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[tantek] (or being spoiled by Wikipedia perhaps? and fan wikis?)
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[tantek] that too broad a generalization of "people"
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[tantek] there's a broad spectrum of people with different needs, interests, wants, and time to spend
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[tantek] it's not a unreasonable/reasonable dichotomy
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[tantek] there's already a (growing) set of people that are adopting this stuff. what is reasonable is working to make it take less time to do so, for an ever broader set of different needs, interests, wants
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[Jamey_Sharp] "unreasonable _to expect_", in the same way that it's unreasonable _to expect_ volunteers to put good documentation together for free: some people certainly do it anyway.
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[tantek] it's not unreasonable to expect something that's already happening
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[tantek] i.e. there *are* people adopting, every day/week/month, therefore it is reasonable to expect that will continue
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[tantek] we can always make that better, and have over time
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[tantek] and will continue to do so, incrementally, because that's how volunteer based communities work
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[Jamey_Sharp] I'm going to leave that alone. I understand what you're saying, I think it's missing things, but that's okay.
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[tantek] there won't be a magic "now it's done!" mature moment. Is Wikipedia ever done?
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[tantek] there's definitely things missing!
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[tantek] a lot of this speaks to I think lack of empathy? or maybe just lack of time-spent perspective. There's an expectation of "lots of other people should spend lots of time so I don't have to spend as much time" that worries me.
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[tantek] maybe this is more meta. or meta meta 😂
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[Michael_Beckwit meta^2
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[smerrill] I agree with the link’s comment that the number of examples can be detrimental to helping *me* the reader of the page figure out how to implement the thing about which I’m reading. I think most people are willing to accept that the wiki is (and will be) an incomplete work-in-progress; but if there is a desire to increase the number of Indieweb community participants then the wiki could use some additional structure / focus / polish to help e
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[smerrill] find practical info, as opposed to lists of “this person implemented this thing in 2013; this other person implemented it in a different way in 2016”
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[smerrill] lots of people want to jump in quick and experience an immediate success. That’s hard to do.
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[tantek] since I said I'd take it to meta I will now and answer there 🙂
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:24:08 BST I bookmarked https://getdoingthings.com/discovering-the-indieweb/. When I was promoting the last Homebrew Website Club on Twitter (..." https://getdoingthings.com/discovering-the-indieweb/ (from https://www.jvt.me/bookmarks/0b51d660-8848-4b1f-839b-c49bac102f51/)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] re: suggested sessions for IndieWeb Summit - please add to https://indieweb.org/2019/Session_proposals to see if you can gauge interest ahead of time1
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[tantek] jacky++ for doing so 🙂
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Loqi jacky has 15 karma in this channel over the last year (69 in all channels)
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[tantek] [Jamey_Sharp]++ for also doing so!
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Loqi [Jamey_Sharp] has 3 karma over the last year
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[fluffy] Are there any Microsub clients which will show unread items in oldest-to-newest form? That would be great for comics and other serialized content (stories, podcasts, etc.)
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[fluffy] [Jamey_Sharp]++ wow, citing my half-baked long-winded ramble? I’m honored. 🙂
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Loqi [Jamey_Sharp] has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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[Jamey_Sharp] [fluffy]++ Haha, well, I haven't managed to write my own half-baked long-winded ramble on the subject, so yours will have to do 😜
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Loqi [fluffy] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (12 in all channels)
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[fluffy] but yeah I definitely want to be a part of that conversation, obviously. I’d also love to see some push towards more structured feeds, like my Atom feeds could really benefit from some sort of implicit “folder” structure. Its categories/tags functionality is half-baked and I haven’t seen any evidence that it’s even supported by anything.
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[grantcodes] [fluffy] I don't think there's really any full support for oldest to newest in any readers (or maybe even servers) yet
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[grantcodes] There is an issue somewhere for it
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[fluffy] yeah, that one feature is the main reason I keep sticking with FeedOnFeeds.
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[fluffy] I’ve only tried a handful of clients though.
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[grantcodes] Hmm, I didn't find the issue. Maybe you could open an issue here: https://github.com/indieweb/microsub/issues
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[fluffy] Will do
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[fluffy] Looks like there’s a bunch of “unread entries” requests already
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[fluffy] Also is there a mechanism for moving a feed between channels, or for having feed items go into different channels based on filter rules?
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[fluffy] oh, looks like https://github.com/indieweb/microsub/issues/31 is a discussion I can contribute to on that one
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Loqi [sebsel] #31 Grouping channels
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aaronpk [fluffy]: one thing to keep in mind is that the server that's actually subscribing to everything can always do its own thing
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aaronpk for example aperture has some filters and things already, just not as features that can be controlled by the reader apps
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[fluffy] Sure, and I feel like most of this stuff would better belong in the client
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[fluffy] But it’d be great if the protocol at least provides mechanisms to make it easier and more transferrable 🙂
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aaronpk this is treading a fine line in spec design. adding too many features to the spec overwhelms people who look at it, and makes it that much harder to build a functional app or server
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aaronpk so the challenge is to specify just enough to make a good and consistent experience between apps and servers, while letting both also be flexible enough internally to add their own features
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[fluffy] Hmm, yeah. I guess the functionality I’m thinking of would better live in the Microsub server itself, like it’d be a feature for e.g. Aperture to implement.
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Loqi friendly reminder [fluffy], can you move this conversation to #indieweb-dev to keep this channel more inclusive and inviting?
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aaronpk and then as we see commonalities develop between implementations, it may make sense to bring some of that back into the specs
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aaronpk tread very carefully in that discussion to not say any dev jargon while still describing spec development :)
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[fluffy] Once again I find myself not understanding where the line is between this channel and the dev channel 😛
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aaronpk for this kind of conversation, as long as it remains on user experience then this channel is fine :)
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[jgmac1106] Fluffy here is my rule of thumb, "Can someone who never built a websote understand this post?"
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[tantek] going to add something like that to /discuss
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jacky [Jamey_Sharp]++ on comics
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Loqi [Jamey_Sharp] has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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jacky I'm definitely interested in seeing more creative forms of media in the IndieWeb
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jacky maybe a choose-your-own-adventure story or what not
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[jgmac1106] jacky all up for sessions on building cool media remix machines, always wanted something like Zeega or Popcorn again
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] I have a feeling if you proposed all the sessions you've said you're up for over the past week, you wouldn't be able to even attend them all 😉
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[jgmac1106] ohh I know, why I haven;t added any yet too hard to choose
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[jgmac1106] leaning towards Making Semantic Cards that Also Look Good with SubGrid, Owning Your Productivity, and the Media Remixer...given I can't do the third leaning towards other two
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mblaney hi Portland :-)
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[jgmac1106] mblaney... Can't wait to see you again
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mblaney hey jgmac1106 will be good to see you to, glad to be back!
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mblaney *too
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GWG mblaney, waiting to depart
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GWG Looking forward to late night reader themed chats
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mblaney haha GWG jetlag might get the better of me tonight :-) will email you about checkin
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GWG mblaney, not tonight. I am unpacking and heading to bed
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