#indieweb 2019-12-11
2019-12-11 UTC
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bradleyallen Hello indieweb, now accessing chat via the web interface. It's not displaying previous chats/log. Is that expected?
# bradleyallen Whoops. Sorry. I clicked on Prev and a world of history revealed itself.
# bradleyallen Purfect timing!
# bradleyallen I'm going to attempt to eschew accessing via Slack. I miss out on #chat, but that may be for the best.
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# bradleyallen Hey jacky!
# bradleyallen (hello from Oaklandia)
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chrisaldrich What is vialogues?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "vialogues" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "vialogues is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/erinbiba/status/1204583763826614275" to the "See Also" section of /Twitter https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67139&oldid=66876
# chrisaldrich Question that's starting to drive me crazy: It's easy to find the canonical URL for a tweet, but when someone else retweets it, how does one find the permalink to that retweet?
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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# alvinsj[m] good morning from berlin
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# jeremycherfas Good morning alvinsj[m] (from Rome)
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[jgmac1106] Morning from snowy Connecticut
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# [cheukting_ho] RSVP for IndieWebCamp 2020 London - https://www.eventbrite.com/e/indiewebcamp-london-2020-tickets-85763160923
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@jack Twitter is funding a small independent team of up to five open source architects, engineers, and designers to develop an open and decentralized standard for social media. The goal is for Twitter to ultimately be a client of this standard. 🧵 (twitter.com/_/status/1204766078468911106)
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[grantcodes] whoa that would be huge if it actually happens
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[KevinMarks] Depends who they hire
# [grantcodes] He explicitly states he would rather use something that already exists in the thread
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[davidmead] They’ll put their best people on it 😉
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# @jack Finally, new technologies have emerged to make a decentralized approach more viable. Blockchain points to a series of decentralized solutions for open and durable hosting, governance, and even monetization. Much work to be done, but the fundamentals are there. (twitter.com/_/status/1204766085037248512)
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@paraga The ideal candidate is someone who is hands-on technically, curious across disciplines, has experience working in the open on the blockchain, an opinionated vision for this effort, and is thrilled by the idea of shaping the future of social media. (twitter.com/_/status/1204766189139873793)
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# [snarfed] funny. facebook actually had somewhat similar ideas and put some significant effort into prototyping a blockchain alternative for propagating their core structured data - friend graph posts, responses etc. got it up to 50kqps writes, but their total write volume is like 3-4 orders of magnitude higher, so they gave up on it. not sure that ever got much press.
# [grantcodes] I think that position is just for the lead person. Hopefully it's just a case of someone thinking blockchain might be useful, but can be ruled out if there are more appropriate solutions.
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[schmarty] these specifics may be leaning into dev talk
# [schmarty] but i'd just as soon take it chat because i am livid.
# [schmarty] haha just wanting to vent what is definitely my knee-jerk reaction
# [schmarty] a lot of other folks have already said the same concerns publicly. i am extremely skeptical of a giant player like twitter to push any interop solution that doesn't further entrench their status and lock out small players.
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# [schmarty] mentioning blockchain as one of the first technologies they're taking inspiration from lowers my opinion even more
# [schmarty] snarfed: i am of the opinion that the appearance of being incompetent/ineffectual is a business strategy to avoid taking responsibility for harms.
# [schmarty] hehe
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[manton] I'm now _very_ curious who is going to be on this team. Someone just pointed out to me that Twitter's new @bluesky account for this project follows exactly 1 person: Alex Payne, who built the first version of the Twitter API. Wonder if this is a nod to Twitter's early roots or more than that.
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# [schmarty] parsing out some pieces of these threads, i get the sense the major aims are to build competing but interoperable recommender systems that host no content in the hopes that they'll compete on best ways to prevent abuse and direct people to less inflammatory content.
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# chrisaldrich As a diverse group of standards builders and users who stand behind /plurality, should we collectively draft a response to light the way? After all we've got hundreds of engineers, lots of real world examples, dozens+ CMSes, W3C recommendations, and almost a decade of real-world use. The standard already exists, they could put their 5 engineers to just building their blue sky this week?
# chrisaldrich There's pretty good evidence that 5 people hired by a single dominant corporate player are not going to make a "standard".
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# chrisaldrich Given the playing field and reading into his Twitter thread, we might deduct that Jack is conceding that he can't beat Facebook, Inc. in the users game and with potential government deregulation, why don't we decentralize to take away Facebook's power which could allow them to double down on the algorithms portion at which they've got some reasonable advance runway to try to win the market that way. Or alternately "social has been commoditized"
# chrisaldrich let's build on newer frontiers.
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# [manton] I wondered about competing with Facebook's curation efforts, too. Facebook has thousands of people looking for abuse, bad content, etc. When Jack says "centralized enforcement of global policy to address abuse and misleading information is unlikely to scale over the long-term without placing far too much burden on people", my read of that is the scaling burden is on Twitter employees.
# [schmarty] manton: i read it that way, too. victims of abuse on silos like twitter also have too great of a burden but that seems to be because the silos don't offer better tools to victims of abuse.
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jacky also silos actively say this (https://chat.indieweb.org/2019-12-11#t1576075694671200) with NIH in mind
# Loqi [[grantcodes]] He explicitly states he would rather use something that already exists in the thread
# [schmarty] ironically i feel like centralized systems have the most power when it comes to stopping abuse. decentralized or distributed systems are likely to end up with more work for victims.
# [schmarty] heh, but what they're proposing seems pretty technical to me.
# [schmarty] it would have been amazing if he had explicitly called out a need for new governance and funding models for social media 😄
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# [schmarty] i am amazed, but not surprised, at how much of a fire this announcement has set off (in general but also in me personally).
# [schmarty] ah well. anyone working on something for the gift calendar today? 😅
# chrisaldrich schmarty++ for focusing on making something :)
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# jacky it's _def_ going to be on the blockchain or blockchain-adjacent https://twitter.com/paraga/status/1204766189139873793
# @paraga The ideal candidate is someone who is hands-on technically, curious across disciplines, has experience working in the open on the blockchain, an opinionated vision for this effort, and is thrilled by the idea of shaping the future of social media. (twitter.com/_/status/1204766189139873793)
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# [jgmac1106] don't think I would want to work for a company, or work with people who want to work for a company who makes major announcements like that.....
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# chrisaldrich Good morning [jgmac1106]
# [jgmac1106] morning Chris
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gRegorLove Morning indieweb. Good chat this morning, captures my frustrations as well. Would love to see aaronpk and manton put their names in.
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# superkuh Meh. Blockchains for hosting seem very silly. There's nothing wrong with everyone just running a webserver. It's a lot easier and a lot better.
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# [manton] Planning to post this later after I've sat on it a little more. No longer totally sure how to feel because we hardly know anything about Twitter's intentions. https://gist.github.com/manton/aea99e17db51ce0595cd0fd966726655
# jacky https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ kinda talks on this a bit
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# [snarfed] coolest (ie not hot) take i've seen so far: https://werd.io/2019/twitters-project-bluesky
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# cambridgeport90[ Are used to be in the block chain stuff. I sort of abandoned it because eventually it just got stupid.
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# [schmarty] manton++ good write-up! it is probably worth mentioning that Facebook's efforts at human moderation are taking their own kind of toll. low-paid workers subjected to immense amounts of disturbing content. sometimes leading to mental health issues, which FB doesn't seem to be addressing.
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# Loqi [indienews/ru] New post: "24 дня индивеба: follow me" https://marinintim.com/2019/indieweb/11/
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# chrisaldrich marinintim++ for adding another language to /IndieNews
# chrisaldrich scrolls back a bit
# marinin[m] my usernames are all over the place :)
# chrisaldrich In true IndieWeb fashion, it's nice that Jack has said what he's said, but I'm not likely to give him any IndieWeb karma unless he actually builds something useful. Until then, I'll bet all my domains that we're better off doing what we've been doing.
# chrisaldrich marinin[m], sorry, I hadn't seen you pop up in chat, so i went with your domain with best hopes. ;)
# marinin[m] i hadn't figure out yet how to user my registered freenode nick with riot bridge
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# [benatwork] jacky++ for your reply to my piece - I think those are all really good points
# [benatwork] particularly wrt community harm
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# [manton] [schmarty] Totally. I've blogged about the Facebook moderation problem and _almost_ linked to it, but decided not to get distracted. I think Facebook is doing the right thing by hiring a bunch of people, but unfortunately the wrong thing by not giving them benefits and sane working conditions.
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