#indieweb 2020-02-26

2020-02-26 UTC
KempfCreative, kensp, gRegorLove, nickodd and [tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek] [manton] please consider making the "show my replies elsewhere" *opt-in* for existing micro.blog users to reduce the element of surprise, and perhaps on by default only for new users, with a clear link to disable if they wish.
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[tantek] thinking about this from the perspective of multiple /publics and especially the possible negative impacts to those more vulnerable / less privileged
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[tantek] I disagree with the "Make everyone learn how to be in the public on the web" answer/notes that a few folks posted — that's an exceptionally privileged viewpoint that is naive as to the disproportionate levels of abuse that women and URMs receive on the "public web"
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[manton] [tantek] Thanks, I'm considering it. I think I need to wait a little while so I can have a better sense of the feedback. I think a bigger concern people had is not that the replies are public (all Micro.blog conversations are public anyway) but making sure if someone deletes a reply, or deletes their account, it's deleted everywhere.
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[manton] A related question: does Twitter let you opt-out of someone embedding your tweets? That might be the most comparable to this, and I can't find a way to prevent it in Twitter's settings.
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[tantek] We can be better than Twitter
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[manton] Agreed. Just trying to understand how similar problems are solved in other platforms.
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[manton] Facebook comments might be a better comparison.
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jacky yeah, opting out from embedding is only possible when you're private
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jacky protected posts could give us an edge here
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shiraeeshi tantek: can you give a link to "Make everyone learn how to be in the public on the web" answer/notes
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jacky yeah I don't see that either
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jacky wonder if it's only on micro.blog
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[tantek] I paraphrased
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[tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/2020-02-25#t1582643847335400 and following
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Loqi [aaronpk] like yes it's a good thing that it makes you think about what you're putting out on the internet
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jacky hm okay
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jacky this is something I think about on and off
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jacky specifically around like 'target' audiences
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jacky we need protected (or permission required) posts to kinda address this
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jacky is now encouraged to work on this sooner than later
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jacky or at least think on it
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[tantek] jacky, yes, we need protected posts, AND we need to understand expectations about "quiet" publics
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jacky oh this word 'publics' is new to me
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jacky what is publics
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Loqi publics are the combined set of people who make up the readership or audience of a post https://indieweb.org/publics
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jacky is reading ^
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shiraeeshi related: do you have a link to this article in your wiki? it mentions indieweb project and it's related to what you are currently discussing: https://knightcolumbia.org/content/protocols-not-platforms-a-technological-approach-to-free-speech
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jacky that page some good reads (/publics) and interesting thoughts
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jacky I think I'll write a bit more on my thoughts on that
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jacky b/c I think I'm more in the world that tantek describes (by choice)
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[tantek] jacky, yes. would love to read your thoughts on that
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[KevinMarks] publics << https://youtu.be/bdLCKdjClFw danah boyd on teens navigating publics
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Loqi ok, I added "https://youtu.be/bdLCKdjClFw danah boyd on teens navigating publics" to the "See Also" section of /publics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=68729&oldid=63503
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[jgmac1106] In clmooc we handle multiple publics and identities in a few ways. We have our public web ring and rss planet, and a Twitter hashtag. For private there is a facebook group and yap.net
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[jgmac1106] Yap.net is a private group writing space for sharing drafts or vulnerable writing
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[jgmac1106] My classes a bit different as it is a forced public.... But in Known it is interesting to watch how public and members only posts get used
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[jgmac1106] We could have used the webring site as our private space for clmooc and not yap.net as well but I didn't want the burden of facilitating a private space and drama that comes along
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[manton] I do think protected posts are probably a better long-term solution than opting out of having your post appear elsewhere on the web. If someone wants their reply to be visible to Micro.blog users but not anyone else, that would move us more toward Micro.blog being a silo where content lives separate from the web. That's the opposite of what I want.
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[tantek] [manton], I agree with you about "silo where content lives separate from the web. That's the opposite of what I want." and I think the requests are a bit more subtle than that
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[tantek] There is a broad spectrum of how "public" a literally public post is, and that's worth both understanding and designing for, as I think people (users) make all sorts of assumptions about where on that spectrum they are / are posting, and find comfort in different places on that spectrum
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[tantek] There's a lot of ways a public post can be amplified, or de-emphasized
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[tantek] I think *both* protected posts, and a variety of "public" posts are worth having
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[tantek] e.g. public posts that are one or more of: 1 not indexable by robots, 2 do not show up in (local) search results, 3 do not get cross-posted to other domains automatically
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[tantek] there are more aspects I'm sure
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[tantek] 4 do not show up in a "global public timeline"
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[tantek] etc.
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[tantek] part of the goal here is to provide a degree of "public" posts that allows folks that otherwise might be attacked / harassed more to be "public" (e.g. URLs they can share to stuff for others to click and view without auth) without attracting "the wrong kind of attention"
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[tantek] #earlymorningthoughts
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[snarfed] [tantek] your default opt-in recommendation argument above seems like it would apply to silo backfeed too, right? which we clearly haven't followed yet in general
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[tantek] [snarfed] (different) silos set different expectations
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[tantek] so to some extent, it's ok that we are "outing" silo (e.g. Twitter) public posts more publicly than others (e.g. Mastodon)
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[snarfed] really? i've heard similar complaints from fb and twitter users. rare, but the same underlying idea
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[snarfed] hard to conclusively know people's mental models about specific silos, of course, and there will be a range
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[tantek] I don't think there is an "in general" approach here, I think it has to be case by case
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[tantek] right on both accounts
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[tantek] part of it is what expectations does twitter set
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[snarfed] case by case, sure, but we still need a default, and you argued it should be opt in, which is clearly not what we here do in general for silo backfeed
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[tantek] e.g. Twitter sets very global defaults for public
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[snarfed] i'm just interested in that distinction
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[tantek] search results, showing up in non-followings feeds etc.
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[snarfed] are m.b's global defaults different?
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[tantek] Twitter can amplify your "public" post by default in all sorts of random ways
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[tantek] m.b doesn't show you rando posts from people you don't follow
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[tantek] for example
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[manton] On the "not indexable by robots", I do hear from people about that, and some Micro.blog users have set their robots.txt to not allow anything. That is trickier to apply on a post-by-post basis to conversations but worth exploring.
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[tantek] also Twitter "public" 2020 != Twitter "public" 2006
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[tantek] m.b is much more like the latter, and frankly, I for one really liked and appreciated the feel of Twitter "public" 2006. even 2007-2008.
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[snarfed] ok. so a lot of this is very qualitative judgment calls on the expectations and community norms of different silos/services
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[snarfed] which still begs the question for at least bridgy mastodon too, if not twitter or the others...?
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[tantek] [snarfed] re: "heard similar complaints from fb and twitter users", yeah my opinion on that has also been shifting over time. We should try to better accommodate such concerns. I believe the systems we design in response will be more human-respectful and more welcoming to a broader (more diverse) set of folks
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[tantek] FB is no longer an issue there anymore since their APIdeath
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[tantek] So that leaves Twitter
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[snarfed] github is maybe fine. flickr, IG? i can't claim to know those communities' expectations very well
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[snarfed] mastodon, bridgy's default may be in the wrong
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[tantek] [manton] yes, per post settings are more difficult
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[tantek] I actually want to figure out how in my own system to do per post (non)-search-indexability!
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[tantek] Part of that has to do with not POSSEing some posts to Twitter for example
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[snarfed] unlisted++
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Loqi unlisted has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] publics << unlisted
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Loqi ok, I added "[[unlisted]]" to the "See Also" section of /publics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=68730&oldid=68729
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[snarfed] i've appreciated using unlisted posts a lot over the last year or so
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[snarfed] https://indieweb.org/unlisted
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[tantek] what is unlisted
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Loqi unlisted are publicly visible posts that are not included in a homepage or feed(s), and are typically excluded from site search features and broader web search services https://indieweb.org/unlisted
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[manton] [snarfed] Do you mean the default may be wrong for Mastodon backfeed, like not respecting Mastodon user settings?
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[snarfed] community expectations maybe, not explicit settings
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[snarfed] (i'm not aware of any mastodon setting for eg "don't backfeed my replies or likes")
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[snarfed] and i don't know the community expectations for Flickr or IG very well, but open question for them too
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[manton] Got it, thanks. I know Mastodon has a few post visibility settings so didn't know if you meant a technical thing or community assumptions.
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[manton] If someone replies on Mastodon, they can set the reply to be "unlisted" or "followers only".
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[jgmac1106] if you look at the issues why Mastodon will not add webmention support it revolved around "don't backfeed my replies or likes" and also security/vulnerability concerns about endpoints getting barraged
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[jgmac1106] and each instance of Mastodon has it's own community norms, IMO should be something the server admin can set for their instance
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[Rose] I think some other "prior art" worth considering are posted items and emails, you can ask people not to share those (but would need to explicitly do so), but you can't prevent them from doing so.
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[Rose] Not to say that's the right approach, but more that there's a commonality there
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aaronpk My comment was specifically calling out people in a highly privileged group sounding like they want to be able to say whatever they want without consequences and without worrying that their comment might be found again later
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[jgmac1106] Tumblr labs is experimenting with private groups
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[jgmac1106] aaronpk usually that same group also overlaps with free speech trumps all and any censorship by government, person, or community is bad.... Just throw that back at them when they complain
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aaronpk heh
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[jgmac1106] I couldn't find your original comment so I maybe missing content, I guess what I was trying to say I would rather folks recenter design in marginalized people even though thinking about the bad actors you cite is apart of that
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[jgmac1106] [Rose] ...."now I have fears of really long footers....everything in this post is considered the property of X, and if you are reading this now, please stop and report it immediately by calling...Y"
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[jgmac1106] https://twitter.com/MarcFaddoul/status/1232014908536938498
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@MarcFaddoul A TikTok novelty: FACE-BASED FITLER BUBBLES The AI-bias techlash seems to have had no impact on newer platforms. Follow a random profile, and TikTok will only recommend people who look almost the same. Let’s do the experiment from a fresh account: 1/6 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERj7T7XUUAEp3cL.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1232014908536938498)
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jacky w.r.t defaults, I don't think there should be one; users/people should be prompted about the kind of engagement they'd be more likely to have and have their sites / tools adjust accordingly
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jacky I'm still thinking that it's something that tools should check on (IIRC Facebook does this if you post to 'everyone on the platform' a lot and haven't devitavted from that in a while)
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jacky but the fact that we're having (and documenting!) this convo is more than I can say for other tools in platforms
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[chrisaldrich] Is anyone planning on re:publica this year? "*Save The Date!* re:publica 2020 will take place May 06-08, 2020 in Berlin." https://re-publica.com/en They've had IndieWeb and DoOO related presentations in the past...
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Are you?
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[chrisaldrich] I'm debating it. I have a family engagement just before it, so I'm not sure I can swing it datewise. They did record/livestream pieces of it in the past though and I think that there have bee adjacent IWCs as well.
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[chrisaldrich] In particular, I remember this from 2018: https://boffosocko.com/2018/05/25/republica-2018-jim-groom-domain-of-ones-own-reclaim-your-data-youtube/
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[chrisaldrich] If they're open for proposing talks, others may be interested in that since it's still a way off?
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sknebel Talk cfp closed in December
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sknebel You have two days to submit a non-talk thing
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://blog.b-ark.ca/2020/01/02/re-inventing-my-blog.html (from https://boffosocko.com/2020/02/26/reinventing-my-blog-the-b-ark/)
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