#indieweb 2020-04-16

2020-04-16 UTC
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[snarfed] also http://blog.dataportability.org/ "Error establishing a database connection" oh the irony
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aaronpk 😂
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[snarfed] aww https://stream.withknown.com/ is also down. only the home page https://withknown.com/ is still up
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Kongaloosh do we have a lkink for the west-coast meetup?
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[Kevin_Faaborg] is there a zoom link for right now?
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[Kevin_Faaborg] https://events.indieweb.org/2020/04/online-homebrew-website-club-west-coast-v0BQQ1BYfuhI
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[prtksxna] [Kevin_Faaborg] Kongaloosh: Just saw in the other channel that tantek is having some trouble with his laptop
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[tantek] yeah and I'm not setup to create a zoom link apparently 😕
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Kongaloosh talky.io?
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Kongaloosh might be a solution?
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[prtksxna] tantek: Should I setup a google meet?
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[tantek] prtksxna, go for it
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Kongaloosh https://talky.io/hwc
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Kongaloosh or a google meet :shrugs:
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[tantek] I know google meet works on my setup. trying Talky
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[prtksxna] https://meet.google.com/jhm-oaft-kay?hs=122
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Kongaloosh okie dokie
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[tantek] Kongaloosh, how do you kick people on talky?
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Kongaloosh no clue
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[tantek] since we know zoom bombing is a thing
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[tantek] well then I'd rather not use it 😕
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Kongaloosh I can probably
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Kongaloosh I have a kick button!
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[tantek] trying prtksxna's google meet
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[prtksxna] [tantek] How can we update https://events.indieweb.org/2020/04/online-homebrew-website-club-west-coast-gCtysFHMyZCP?
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[Kevin_Faaborg] ^for when we do demos
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[tantek] prtksxna this one : https://events.indieweb.org/2020/04/online-homebrew-website-club-west-coast-v0BQQ1BYfuhI
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[tantek] I updated it
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[prtksxna] tantek, oh right! Thank you 🙏
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[prtksxna] If someone is trying to get into the Meet for HWC and is having trouble please ping me. Since I set it up ad-hoc its asking me to explicitly add everyone.
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[tantek] Thank you [prtksxna] ++
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[tantek] ^^^ Why didn't Loqi give [prtksxna] karma for that? Slack adds a space after usernames when autocompleting so Loqi needs to know to ignore that in case that's the issue
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[tantek] We're now doing site demos
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[tantek] Kevin Faaborg is demonstrating his blog post interface
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[tantek] it uses content.js, and all the data is in markdown
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[tantek] he got code blocks working
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[tantek] very cool! [prtksxna] thank you I couldn't figure out how to show everyone next to the code
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[prtksxna] tantek: I’ve been using https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/google-meet-grid-view/bjkegbgpfgpikgkfidhcihhiflbjgfic for Meets
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[tantek] maybe we can do one more photo with kevin showing his site next to content.js, and give people a warning so they can turn on their camera and pay attention! 🙈
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[prtksxna] Hehe, yeah
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[prtksxna] [Kevin_Faaborg]++
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Loqi [Kevin_Faaborg] has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] I did an editorial IndieWebify.me update during HWC! https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pull/88
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Loqi [tantek] #88 empty p-name for notes
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[tantek] And now Eril is showing his new website
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KartikPrabhu just joined to see what's going on. thanks to whomever let me in :)
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[prtksxna] KartikPrabhu 👋
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KartikPrabhu good to see everyone. I'll try to join in more often
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[LewisCowles] gRegorLove++ physical journals
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Loqi gRegorLove has 22 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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Salt[m] jacky: been busy trying to ignore the pings of my name here.... but super interested in continuing the microdav conversation! I jotted down some functionality notes earlier today...
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Salt[m] tantek: saw some conversation of alternatives to meetup, this is the one I've been tracking... https://joinmobilizon.org/en/
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Salt[m] after reading through all of the info about notes vs articles and am not sure how I feel about the idea that any content can be nameless/titleless... I understand that traditionally things like twitter posts/fb updates wouldn't, and that there is cognitive overhead to consider when naming "any" content, but that doesn't mean a title doesn't exist even if it is automagically generated.
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Salt[m] Re:https://indieweb.org/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction
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Zegnat My website does not have a difference between notes and articles, everything is just a post.
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Salt[m] I'm trying to write out the content categories that I plan on supporting at the top level and keep going back and forth between using the origin (self vs repost/reply) or type, and if type, just how spcific to be. For instance, is there any reason to use something aside from "media" why should audio/vidia/photos/images/etc be specified separately?
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Zegnat I think those are often described separately because people expect different consuming usecases. E.g. Together’s photo view comes to mind: https://indieweb.org/File:together-gallery-view-2018-11-20.png
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Salt[m] that presentation seems reasonable for any media type, but if a filter would need to be applies, it could be done based on the file rather than the post methinks
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Trendschau Hi Community, I was just curious how you selected your list of cms for indie-publishers and if my project https://typemill.net is interesting for that list (Flat-File-CMS)?
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[jgmac1106] Trendschau you are welcome to add a page, people like flat-cile CMS. I can help you with a template, you may want to add a section listing all the IndieWeb building blocks TypeMill has
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[jgmac1106] for example is marked up with microformats, use webmentions, have a micropub and microsub endpoints, etc okay if you don't but we like to highlight that
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[jgmac1106] here is an example: https://indieweb.org/Micro.blog
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[jgmac1106] and this is one just getting started: https://indieweb.org/Pine.blog
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Trendschau Hi jgmac1106 that is great, thank you! Typemill uses plugins but has no special indieweb-plugin yet. I plan to create a webmention-plugin in near future.
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Trendschau If it is still interesting, I would love to create a small info-page in the next days :)
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[jgmac1106] Before that look to your TWIG templating to add basic microformats support to your twig templating: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/microformats
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[jgmac1106] What is Kirby?
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Loqi Kirby is a filed-based CMS written in PHP https://indieweb.org/Kirby
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[jgmac1106] that might be a good template for you to look at as well, people really like flat file CMS,
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Trendschau Great, yes, I love Kirby, it is of course a bit more mature than typemill, but Typemill is easy for non-devs to use. So thank you, I will use that and have a look into twig templating...
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[jgmac1106] Open Source isn't required people just like CMS to use open protocols and talk with all the other tools, twig may not be the best way to add the markup, that was my guess from reading your site
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[jgmac1106] but that will make your webmention work much easier when you look at adding webmention and other IndieWeb building block plugins
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Trendschau Yes, with twig and markdown it is a bit hard to add classes or attributes to all that tags. Webmentions are exciting, so I think I will add that next :)
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Trendschau I mean in main content. But from the first view it is still possible to create microformat-content with content from the form-builder of typemill...
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[KevinMarks] Salt - the goal of marking up is to make things clearer. The name/summary/content split does that pretty well overall. The problem with automatically generating them is that they end up being less useful. The classic case of this is that you write a note, and have code fill in the silo metadata in the head, then syndicate the note to twitter and its the same thing 3 times
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[KevinMarks] Just because a field exists doesn't mean that you should put something in it
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Salt[m] So that example is just what I'm thinking when considering whether there is a difference between note and article. If I write an article, I'm going to want to put a syndicated message to a variety of silos, that can be specified in the front matter rather than as a separate note
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[jgmac1106] lot of people with twig experience can help but those questions better in the dev channel....on a persoanl note anything that makes it hard to use the class attribute scares me...shouldn't be hard to edit an attribute any HTML element can carry
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[jgmac1106] salt I would want to filter by media type, I do different pages for my music, poems, photos, and videos...but have to do it all by hand...I wish I knew enough to automate these build with post type discovery like features
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Salt[m] right now I'm just trying to outline the type of content I'll be supporting, currently pretty much planning on going ahead with media, but will likely implement subfiltering based on primary type like that
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[jgmac1106] Trendschau I think Grav uses Twig templating as well, could maybe find some tips and tricks there: https://indieweb.org/Grav
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[jgmac1106] Salt I know you are aware just sharing the page for others as well: https://indieweb.org/post-type-discovery
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Salt[m] thanks, definitely been digging deep into the wiki tonight... should have gone to the HWC...
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Salt[m] so looking through the wiki about post types, there are a bunch of these... historic metrics? I know aaronpk tracks a bunch of these, but I'm wondering if there is a good overarching name/term for listened/read/watched/played/ate/etc? https://indieweb.org/posts#Types_of_Posts
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Trendschau jgmac1106 yes, reading microformats again then most of them are easy done with a template. Only adding microformats into the general markdown-content of the page is hard because markdown does not support attributes at all in the pure version.
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Trendschau I think I will create an indie-web theme first and then create the entry for typemill here, that makes more sense :D
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sknebel 👍
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[jgmac1106] Trendschau++
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Loqi Trendschau has 1 karma over the last year
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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en3r0 Good morning jeremycherfas!
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jeremycherfas Hello
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en3r0 I just thought I would say hello, I lurk here but don't do all that much. :)
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jeremycherfas That's perfectly OK. Lurkers eventually speak up, as you did.
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en3r0 Are you doing anything interesting related to indieweb today?
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jeremycherfas Nope, probably not. Too busy with other work.
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en3r0 Totally understand. I am busy applying to jobs. Eventually would like to get my personal site running on the indieweb.
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[jgmac1106] putting a link to your personal website on a resume can't be a bad thing, good luck on the job hunt
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en3r0 [jgmac1106]: thanks :)
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en3r0 Are there any sites that "aggregate" indieweb sites?
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[jgmac1106] stream.indieweb.org
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[jgmac1106] news.indieweb.org
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[jgmac1106] indieweb.xyz
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[jgmac1106] some others here too: https://indieweb.org/directory but way IndieWeb sites work, if you add just a tiny bit of metadata to your HTML modern social readers can follow the site
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en3r0 Nice, thank you!
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en3r0 [jgmac1106]: Any recommendations for a wordpress plugin to become indieweb compatible? I see there are several options listed here: https://indieweb.org/WordPress My site is rendered statically, so anything that needs to actively receive or send pings wont work.
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[jgmac1106] better to ask in the #wordpress channel, tl/dr easiest path is to use a community supported themes but anything and everything is possible it is WordPress
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en3r0 Sounds good, thanks!
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[jgmac1106] What is WordPress?
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Loqi WordPress is open source CMS software used by many on the Indieweb as well as a blog hosting service https://indieweb.org/WordPress
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aaronpk Oops that's #indieweb-wordpress on IRC. The slack bridge was supposed to translate that
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[jgmac1106] and there
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[jgmac1106] thx aaronpk, en3ro I moved the convo there
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[Aaron_Klemm] Known looks pretty interesting from the list of CMS/blog tools. Is that a good place to start if one's goal is to be able to POSSE? I think what I want is to post on my own site, then syndicate out to mastodon, Twitter, PixelFed...and then probably more at some point.
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[snarfed] [Aaron_Klemm] you've read https://indieweb.org/web_hosting ?
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[snarfed] key first q is whether you want to self host or not. if not, we recommend https://micro.blog/
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[snarfed] if so, Known is good!
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[Aaron_Klemm] Absolutely self-host, as I have experience and am willing to pay, so I'm doing it all on Digital Ocean.
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[Aaron_Klemm] Great, then i'm excited to try out Known. Thank you!
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[snarfed] also join #known!
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[Aaron_Klemm] Oh, wow, I will! Didn't even notice it there til you mentioned it.
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[tantek] [Aaron_Klemm] your question "what am I aiming for exactly?" is both a great starting point, and literally something to ask yourself on a weekly basis, to avoid falling down (and help climb back out of) any particular product/service/technology rabbitholes
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[tantek] If it helps, feel free to brainstorm about on your User: page on the wiki!
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[tantek] Maybe some of these highlevel reasons will resonate with you:
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[tantek] What is why?
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Loqi There are many reasons why you should use the IndieWeb, from controlling your experience on the web (instead of corporate algorithms), to deciding where and when to post your content and where it goes https://indieweb.org/why
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[Aaron_Klemm] Excellent tips, thanks.
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[tantek] photo << Why not to POSSE (e.g. to Instagram), court decided you may be giving up rights: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/court-rules-photographer-gave-up-licensing-rights-by-posting-instagram-1290170
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Loqi ok, I added "Why not to POSSE (e.g. to Instagram), court decided you may be giving up rights: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/court-rules-photographer-gave-up-licensing-rights-by-posting-instagram-1290170" to the "See Also" section of /photo https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69533&oldid=69320
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk Mashable offered a photographer $50 to use an image. Photographer declined. Mashable included the photo anyway by embedding it from Instagram.
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aaronpk That checks out because the photographer granted Instagram certain rights to the photograph, including that others can embed it from instagram.
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[tantek] Sure, it has theoretically "checked out" as a fear we've often talked about. However now it's a court decision on the record
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aaronpk I have to say, I'm pretty solidly on the side of the court decision here, I don't see why that's a bad thing
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[tantek] Also another good reason to consider POSSEing only to private social media accounts (decision specifically calls out a public posting on IG)
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aaronpk the disagreement here seems to stem from the photographer treating instagram as a sort of "public good" or feeling entitled to be able to use it however they want. which is kind of the problem with silos/monopolies in general.
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[tantek] it's a bad thing because of the abuse of power dynamic
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[snarfed] yeah embedding is arguably a heavier weight version of just <img src="http://other.site/...">
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[snarfed] ah ok sure, social/power dynamic arguments are another thing entirely
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[tantek] IG and users are not on equal footing, therefore onerous/exploitative terms of service are not something users can meaningfully consent to
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[snarfed] but the court decision will probably end up applying to web embedding, not corporate/individual power structures
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[snarfed] sigh
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[tantek] aaronpk, reinforcing power dynamics like that is a bad thing
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[tantek] as is pretending as-if the two parties are equal parties in a contract
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[tantek] they're not
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aaronpk it demonstrates why silos like instagram are a problem in the first place
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aaronpk or really once any particular service gets so big that it has that kind of power
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beko I'd also be hopping mad because such silos usually do not even offer a licence choice at all. YT for example does but only very limited. No cc-by-nc-sa for example. Vimeo allows this iirc.
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[tantek] certainly helps make a stronger indieweb case, still harmful IMO
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jacky beko: precisely
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[tantek] right, Flickr does too (allow explicit licensing)
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aaronpk (youtube license options https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2797468 only CC-BY)
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[tantek] trying to remember why I turned my IG public again
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beko yeah. probably because they couldn't show ads otherwhise :D I _can_ understand this to some extend.
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beko I don't know about IG options because I'm only rss-ing in by rss-bridge on one account xD It's a guess.
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oedmarap The best practice for photographers using IG is to allow high-res images on their website only, and upload the correctly (re)sized Instagram images with their watermark clearly depicted if not impossible to notice. That's a safe approach to POSSE and gets the best of both worlds.
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[tantek] oedmarap++ good suggestion! Is this best practice documented somewhere we can link to from the /photo post page?
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Loqi oedmarap has 1 karma over the last year
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beko oedmarap: that'd be my solution too but suggest that to "an artist" :D
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oedmarap [tantek]: It's more or less known among pro/semi-pro photographers and is discussed in forums a lot, and you'll see it on any popular photographer IG (along with the practice of uploading exact sized images since IG's compression creates a lot of artifacts). Most artists on IG do the same thing as well, a throwback to Tumblr where reblogs without linkbacks still allow you to see the @username or signature etc.
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oedmarap beko: I hear you, but you gotta be smart about it eh? :)
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[tantek] oedmarap, makes sense. just curious if someone took the time to blog about it like a How To, or 10 Tips for Pro Photographers using IG etc.
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oedmarap [tantek]: To be honest I never looked for any blog post like that, I do recall anecdotally seeing it mentioned. I'm sure Google might turn up something. A good idea for a post tho :)
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oedmarap [tantek]: Places like 500px usually have a default watermark that you can use, and if someone buys your print, they get the pure image, etc.
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[tantek] Not being a professional photographer I wouldn't feel right suggesting such advice myself personally on my blog from that perspective. I might suggest it from a data-ownership perspective (whether you're pro photographer or not)
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[tantek] good points about watermarks and how it makes sense to use them as part of your whole indieweb publishing flow
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[tantek] I wonder if anyone here is doing that
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[tantek] what is a watermark?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "watermark" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "watermark is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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oedmarap [tantek] A watermark is your brand/logo (John Doe Photography or John Galt Studios) that you place at the corner or bottom of a photo, usually translucent to allow it to be seen but not to take away from the photo itself.
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oedmarap Pretty easy with ImageMagick server side, or even with Jekyll plugins etc for static sites. If you make your site with like Squarespace or something simliar they generally have the option as well :)
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[jgmac1106] aaronpk best part of you cc-by license, you violate the ToS to try and download and resuse the CC-BY content
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aaronpk lol yeah wait
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[jgmac1106] and I have had content id...throw videos as being duplicated on YouTube that had CC-BY license...i dont get views now but part of reason I am trying to move away
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[jgmac1106] don't say you support the Commons and then make it impossible to actually build the Commons
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[jgmac1106] I would say the line the judge cited is in 98% of all boilerplate ToS people sign for almost any web service
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[tantek] Right, that's the problem
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Jamietanna1 Has anyone seen this? Title sounds like it may be of interest https://tomcritchlow.com/2020/04/15/library-json/
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beko Jamietanna1: No but Fedireads started some weeks ago. I raised https://github.com/mouse-reeve/fedireads/issues/84 =)
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Loqi [bekopharm] #84 HTML views should support microformats
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[Aaron_Klemm] There it is, Tantek. It was a good exercise. Anyone who cares to comment is most welcome. https://indieweb.org/User:Aaronklemm.me What have I missed? What is not possible?
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jacky Jamietanna1: I linked it a moment ago but it looks interesting!
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jacky I'd definitely expose my bookshelf in a format like that
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jacky (h-feed first ofc)
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beko [jgmac1106]: I did that for mine. youtube-dl was happy to assist. Worked even out the subtitles. Also good luck explaining to a court how I could break any licence of my very own video when I can set the licence to whatever I want at a time :)
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oedmarap That's a great idea, the bookshelf as JSON
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jacky as JSON!?!?!?!?
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jacky lol
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oedmarap Haha
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oedmarap Well, practically it'll be YAML and then you JSON it
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oedmarap Working in pure JSON is for psychopaths :)
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Zegnat What is YAMLFeed?
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Loqi YAMLFeed is an attempt to ensure there is always a format war; since JSONFeed claims to be more readable, writable and easier to parse, than RSS, we present YAMLFeed: even more easier to read and write https://indieweb.org/YAMLFeed
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Zegnat ;)
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Zegnat apologises and goes to bed
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jacky lmfaoooo
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oedmarap LOL
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jacky interesting thread https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1250602219834978305
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@andy_matuschak “Retcon”-ing internet history, it’s fun to imagine what might’ve happened if Blogger and Wordpress never existed. The notion of a “blog” was much more amorphous until it was formalized. Now even relatively simple variations on blog-as-formalized seem quite outlandish! https://twitter.com/Mappletons/status/1250532315459194880 (twitter.com/_/status/1250602219834978305)
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jacky based on https://twitter.com/Mappletons/status/1250532315459194880
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@Mappletons Nerding hard on digital gardens, personal wikis, and experimental knowledge systems with @_jonesian today. We have an epic collection going, check these out... 1. @tomcritchlow's Wikifolders: https://tomcritchlow.com/wiki/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVrIC7WXgAMh96-.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1250532315459194880)
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