#indieweb 2020-04-25

2020-04-25 UTC
awolf, [tantek], electronicmaji, opal, jgee, [TimApple], kensp, turona, annadane, KattyWest, KapiX, dckc and [LewisCowles] joined the channel
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[LewisCowles] Thanks Zegnat++ and sknebel++ for advice too.
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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[LewisCowles] Good morning jeremycherfas
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[LewisCowles] and the rest of IndieWeb of course
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jeremycherfas Good morning [LewisCowles]
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jeremycherfas Had a very nice and interesting chat with a podcast guest, but now have to cut him down by about 80%. He did go off on tangents. Fascinating tangents, but tangents nonetheless. Makes it a bit easier to cut.
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[LewisCowles] Eat This Podcast?
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jeremycherfas Yes. Fascinating stuff about changing tastes in wine.
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Zegnat jeremycherfas: do you save up any of those tangents you cut for later podcasts? There must be a lot that ends up on the cutting room floor over several interviews
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jeremycherfas I've done various things in the past. -> #chat
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[TimApple] Good morning
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[LewisCowles] Morning TimApple
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desmondrivet Good morning everyone
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[LewisCowles] Morning desmonddrivet
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chrisaldrich For those joining Gardens and Streams: Wikis, Blogs, and UI---a pop up IndieWebCamp session here's the link to the Zoom room https://zoom.us/j/95012434695?pwd=cEsyTWRMRXA0d3QxMFNzeFRreENzQT09 950-1243-4695 Meeting Password 021089
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GWG I thought that wasn't for another hour.
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GWG Mixed up the time.
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twMat @chrisaldrich - so do we post directly in here?
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GWG Today's session will be recorded and added to Archive.org
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sknebel can someone put the etherpad link in here?
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sebsel sknebel: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/GardenAndStream
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sknebel thx
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[prtksxna] chrisaldrich: Sorry I wont be able to join, something came up. Was really looking forward to this 😞
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[chrisaldrich] Sorry to hear it [prtksxna]! We're recording it for you.
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BillSeitz Dave Peck you might be interested in my Instapaper notes http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/InstaPaper
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[prtksxna] chrisaldrich: Awesome! 🙂
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jeremycherfas Have fun; I'll hope to catch up during the daytime my time.
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BillSeitz Gotta run, @chrisaldrich - thanks for pulling this together!
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sebsel chrisaldrich++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (30 in all channels)
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sebsel My connection is hurting the pleasure to lurk, but I really like this concept of the pop-up session. Clear topic, good discussions :)
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[LewisCowles] Hey Greg 👋
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Zegnat [chrisaldrich] in case you missed it: I added a small note in the etherpad on how you can see who have send a webmention to a specific IndieWeb wiki page. And also who have already linked to the TiddlyWiki page :)
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chrisaldrich Zetnat++
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Loqi Zetnat has 1 karma over the last year
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chrisaldrich It's going to take some time to decompress from that conversation about wikis.
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chrisaldrich Thanks to everyone who showed up!
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chrisaldrich GWG, we've ended the recording and it should be ready to upload.
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chrisaldrich oops... Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (66 in all channels)
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Zegnat The last time I looked at TiddlyWiki must have been ~10 years ago. I might follow Mat’s suggestion and have a look tomorrow
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chrisaldrich The session went longer than I could have ever hoped, but we had an interesting crowd with lots of great ideas. Hearing others talk about their wiki use was incredibly enlightening.
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Zegnat I think there were lots of great things there, several that I am definitely going to have anothing think about in how I use it
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Zegnat chrisaldrich: I didn’t really register though, were you already experimenting with webmentions on tiddlywiki or no? That might be a fun hackday if I do have a look at what people are doing with tiddlywiki now
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chrisaldrich I have been tinkering with webmentions on TiddlyWiki. At present I've got incoming handled by webmention.io, but because of the way I'm hosting it, I can't manage to send webmention because of js;dr.
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chrisaldrich I need to work at hosting it all fully static and then it would be easier to handle the send portion.
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chrisaldrich I'm still researching how I might throw in a full microformats implementation and do custom tiddlers for bookmarks, likes, notes, articles, etc.
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Zegnat Hmm, I wonder what it would take for you to not only recieve (on webmention.io) but to also then render those links. Maybe under References on the tiddle or on its own tag :)
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Zegnat So many ideas
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doubleloop1 chrisaldrich: thanks for organising the session! lots of interesting discussion. I had to drop to go and eat. Seems like enough interest and content for a more regular thing..
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Zegnat doubleloop1: did you have an example somewhere of this wiki map? I thought I had seen it somewhere, but now I cannot find it
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chrisaldrich I was surprised at the number of non-IndieWeb people who showed up to it.
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Zegnat Clearly you advertised it in the right places chrisaldrich!
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chrisaldrich I wish I had asked everyone to send us their email addresses for future events, but I think we've gt enough web addresses to track people down.
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Zegnat chrisaldrich++ for hosting :D I do hope you will do this one again, lovely group, great Saturday night hang for me
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (31 in all channels)
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doubleloop1 Zegnat: I only got as far as starting it on my landing page for now - https://commonplace.doubleloop.net/
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doubleloop1 To hand draw a little sketch on a fluid wiki might not be very maintainable long term...
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Zegnat That might have been where I saw it! I was looking all throughout your blog, woops
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Zegnat I think there was an online surface that was kinda notetaking + mindpalace in that it had the drawn map for you, and you put your notes at locations. But I cannot recall its name :(
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doubleloop1 org-roam does use graphviz to build a navigable map of all the notes in your wiki
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doubleloop1 Currently just one epic map of everything, but I believe soon it will be added for it to be per page
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Zegnat This was more like your drawing there. A map of a “world”
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Zegnat Although I am now really into the idea of a site that you have to navigate like a text adventure
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sknebel need to checkout the etherpad, I sadly had to run into another Zoom to do some tech support (made the mistake of telling someone "just do X" without verifying you can do that just before. bad idea)
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[LewisCowles] chrisaldrich++ along with everyone else. I was very excitedly waiting to mention the peoples of australia. You smoothly transitioned into it
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (32 in all channels)
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[LewisCowles] Zegnat, someone I used to work with creates maps and enjoys dungeoneering. A Lovely chap, very interested in Ruby on Rails
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chrisaldrich I wish we'd had a few from Australia join in person, but the time frame made it difficult for the Australian and Asian timezones
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chrisaldrich I'll have to dig it up, but I do remember seeing some map-type linking on Bill Seitz' wiki/blog
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chrisaldrich http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/FrontPage is his site....
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat and chrisaldrich I got webmentions working on dokuwiki using Fluffys script
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[chrisaldrich] doubleloop++ for all the notetaking during the session!
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Loqi doubleloop has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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[chrisaldrich] Once the video goes up, I'll try to go back through and take some additional notes to fill in some pieces.
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sknebel reading the things about transclusion, I now wonder how things like Hypothesis could play into that. I.e. transcluding sections of other pages you've marked into your own pages
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[jgmac1106] Can't wait to read notes. Family stuff got it the way
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sknebel (does not need to be using Hypothesis etc, but that's the first thing that popped into my mind for selecting bits of another page to do something with)
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[chrisaldrich] The full video will be up eventually. I'm eating lunch, but may take a crack at finding it if GWG doesn't get to it first.
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[chrisaldrich] Hypothes.is is open source, and it would be interesting to create some different displays of the data within it. It would be cool to see a large scale mindmap of thousands of people's annotations on the web.
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[chrisaldrich] What is transclusion?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "transclusion" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "transclusion is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[chrisaldrich] What is embedding?
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Loqi embed is code (usually just HTML like an iframe, sometimes with JS) for showing content from another website on your website or inside a post that is included by viewer’s browser and typically has some interactive aspect (more than just a static image / audio / video file) https://indieweb.org/embedding
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chrisaldrich transclusion is /embed
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Loqi ok
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chrisaldrich This makes me wonder if there are examples of one wiki transcluding information directly from another (instead of just copying it over)?
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[chrisaldrich] AngeloGladding++ for his example of POSSE of an edit post on his own site to the IndieWeb wiki.
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Loqi AngeloGladding has 1 karma over the last year
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sknebel [chrisaldrich]: mediawiki does support that, but I don't know an example offhand. maybe the various wikipedia-projects use it
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[jgmac1106] This is where I mix up difference between transclusion, embedding and forking but answer prolly dev
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[chrisaldrich] there are likely subtleties of the difference between the two, but the general idea between them is roughly the same.
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[KevinMarks] Ward's wiki does cross site transclusion
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[chrisaldrich] Which one KevinMarks? Smallest Federated Wiki?
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[christophe194] ↩️ https://ducamp.me/Chris_Aldrich - mediawiki syntax {{:iwc:User:Boffosocko.com}} iwc is my Interwiki shortcut for indiewebcamp
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[jgmac1106] I still have fedwiki installed at fedwiki.me. Something broke
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[jgmac1106] But isn't that more a fork? I take wiki article Chris wrote and change it on my federated wiki... He can decide whether or not to bring changes to his
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[chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106] would your fork notify me of changes automatically? Or would I need webmentions for such a notification?
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[LewisCowles] if embedding is transclusion, is unfurling a type of transclusion?
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sknebel [christophe194]++ good example
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Loqi [christophe194] has 1 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] Ward installed it for me at Mozfest15... Might have just been a libk to his server
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[jgmac1106] See my comment these differences confuzzle me
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sknebel also feel like a system doing that should attribute the source clearly if its not within the same "system"
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[KevinMarks] I did install it at one point but it confused me
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[jgmac1106] Skenbel fedwiki did with these weird gradient boxes nobody could understand
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[jgmac1106] Guess Kevin said same thing
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[chrisaldrich] I've been contemplating reinstalling Mike Caulfield's Wikity on top of WordPress to see how that might work. Given that it's in WordPress already, I suspect it would get some of the other IndieWeb pieces like webmention for free with plugins.
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[KevinMarks] We used to use moinmoin wiki for transclusion, but media wiki has enough now
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[jgmac1106] I was just writing about holden's wikity fork
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Zegnat What is Wikity?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Wikity" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Wikity is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[chrisaldrich] I spent a chunk of yesterday rereading all of holden's posts about wikity. Need to install and experiment.
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[chrisaldrich] Wikity is a custom WordPress theme that adds wiki functionality to the WordPress platform.
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Loqi ok
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[jgmac1106] I would have added federated wiki functionality to dfn... Was a clear fork of fedwiki
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[jgmac1106] When I think of stuff like tutorials and lesson plans a federated wiki makes sense.... It just needed some design love
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[KevinMarks] I was reading about trying to do this for legal documents and they ended up needing a full programming language to cope
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[jgmac1106] Dokuwiki has some old xml kruff laying around but if you are PHP inclined I really like it.... Stumbled into a wiki/blogging hybrid
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[jgmac1106] Interesting Kevin wonder why... Garbage In issue? My problrm with folksonomy.. Knowledge like trash.
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[jgmac1106] Someone's garbage someone elses gold
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[chrisaldrich] [LewisCowles] I would consider unfurling to be another form of embedding or transclusion. Sounds like every platform wants to have their own word for the same concept.
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[jgmac1106] Wikimedia foundation going hard on Linked Data acrosd Wikipedia, wikicite, wikiquote... They want one central JSON-LD
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[jgmac1106] .... Cam someone help me on dfn? What is difference between inclusion and embedding?
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[chrisaldrich] Usually I've heard about unfurling in the contexts of Slack and Known. Transclusion I mostly hear in the context of wikis and occasionally for photos in websites.
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[jgmac1106] What is inclusion?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "inclusion" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "inclusion is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] inclusion is usually related to diversity
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Loqi ok
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[chrisaldrich] Embedding is most often in the context of video from third party sites.
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[tantek] y'all going way off the jargon deepend
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[chrisaldrich] Inclusion: also a bad word when talking about diamonds. 🙂
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[jgmac1106] Embedding is usually in context of iframe.. Media doesn't matter.. I did say devy earlier
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[tantek] take it to #indieweb-dev please
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[chrisaldrich] I would frame it as we're trying to better define things to help make them less jargon-y. 🙂
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[tantek] embedding << [[Category:jargon]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Category:jargon]]" to the "See Also" section of /embed https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69644&oldid=64337
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[tantek] transclusion << [[Category:jargon]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Category:jargon]]" to the "See Also" section of /embed https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69645&oldid=69644
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Zegnat Thanks to sknebel for being my extra memory! doubleloop1 [chrisaldrich] this was probably what I was remembering, note taking on an actual map: https://www.nototo.app/
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[tantek] unfurling << [[Category:jargon]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Category:jargon]]" to the "See Also" section of /unfurling https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69646&oldid=17676
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[tantek] Linked Data << [[Category:jargon]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Category:jargon]]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /2015/Germany/linked-data https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69647&oldid=31675
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[tantek] JSON-LD << [[Category:jargon]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Category:jargon]]" to the "See Also" section of /JSON-LD https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=69648&oldid=63938
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[tantek] folksonomy << [[Category:jargon]]
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Loqi Sorry, I couldn't find a page named "folksonomy" or similar
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[chrisaldrich] That is an awesome looking little app Zegnat.
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[jgmac1106] Tantek maybe do jargon redirects in meta or dev as well
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[tantek] doing it in context to communicate it, and as a path of escape from the jargon-heavy conversation
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sknebel 2-3 would haven gotten the point across too
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/mengwong/status/1127199747284951040?s=20
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@mengwong @BR3NDA @verbman @mattwadd @jamesondempsey @piawaugh @danielselman @craigaatkinson @RoundTableLaw @PolicyLabAU @digital_nsw @OpenFisca here's the source L4 AST that underlies all of those representations. The language can, of course, be remixed to support other legislative arithmetic; in a future iteration we might just parse all the OpenFisca and translate into L4. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6Sd8wgUUAAHafT.png (twitter.com/_/status/1127199747284951040)
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, except to scare off the conversation to #indieweb-dev all the << [[]] code was *way* more jargony and would have been better in #indieweb-meta 😉
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Loqi Sorry, I couldn't find a page named "tantek, except to scare off the conversation to #indieweb-dev all the" or similar
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[chrisaldrich] jinx [jgmac1106]
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[jgmac1106] Chris, agree with tantek. No jargony would be, "Want a place to remix articles? Try a wiki. Ask in dev
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[tantek] yup it was a harsh way to shutdown dev conversation here because no one was stopping
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[tantek] KevinMarks why?!?
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[chrisaldrich] What is zettlekasten?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "zettlekasten" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "zettlekasten is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] Not sure we should demo being harsh on front door step. Everyone Would have gotten notifications in meta as well
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[tantek] Also for the logs, so anyone coming here reading the logs after the fact sees quite blatantly that the massive use of jargon was inappropriate
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[jgmac1106] Okay +1 for showing we work at CoC and culture
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aaronpk Did Loqi's jargon detector break?
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sknebel I don't think much of that was on it's blacklist.
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sknebel but after this display of "culture" I'm really not in the mood to argue how much of it truly belongs there
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Zegnat http://web.archive.org/web/20200119071107/https://www.nototo.app/public/assets/landingPageNototo.gif
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Zegnat http://web.archive.org/web/20200119071107/https://www.nototo.app/public/assets/landingPageOneNote.gif
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Zegnat [chrisaldrich]: on the topic of web note taking systems again, nototo used to run these two images side by side to show off how you would navigate notes in something like OneNote versus their map:
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Zegnat That was always really interesting to me to see. I personally would want to work with notes in a OneNote like environment, but navigating between them in a Nototo way? Or something in between, as doubleloop1 was describing on the call :)
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chrisaldrich I hadn't really thought of OneNote as a wiki so much until I recently learned that one could use the [[*]] sort of mark up in it to create direct links.
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[tantek] Anyone complaining about the use of < < as noise here, that's EXACTLY what your usef of jargon looks like to everyone who is not a developer.
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[tantek] Please sit with that annoyance you're feeling because that's literally the same discomfort you are causing to non-developers, and as a result making this channel less welcome.
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chrisaldrich OneNote does have a lot of useful UI pieces that I've been thinking about how to implement in my personal wiki though.
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chrisaldrich The tough problem may be moving data from one set up to another. I find that the value of things like wikis is having all of your data in that one spot for working with. Using data across platforms seems much less efficient and user friendly.
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[LewisCowles] tantek++ heard, please accept apologies. Sometimes our heads don't recognise "jargon" as such
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Loqi tantek has 18 karma in this channel over the last year (125 in all channels)
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[tantek] [LewisCowles]++ thanks and appreciate your empathy. Now I'll go do the work of adding it to Loqi's lists
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Loqi [LewisCowles] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (16 in all channels)
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chrisaldrich What is a mindmap?
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Loqi mindmap is a diagram used to visually organize information, It can be used as a sitemap, profile page or category/tag tree https://indieweb.org/mindmap
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[KevinMarks] I think the whole version control, forking, transclusion, embedding mental model is moving from dev thinking to mainstream use, but it is still tricky, both inherently, and in mapping it to the patterns we have
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[LewisCowles] we covered in the zoom chat it was too specific for general use. We did acknowledge it and unfortunately the spirited discussion took over
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[LewisCowles] the other thing I think is that it is a technical term for copying which is such a more inclusive term
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[jgmac1106] Mainstream use Kevin is remixing and/or copying
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[jgmac1106] If I copy a Google Doc it doesn't say "Fork this doc"
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[KevinMarks] Sure, but both Wikipedia and shared edit systems like Google docs are mainstream
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[LewisCowles] I feel like we could be kind to our fellow community member and move this
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[KevinMarks] It does ask you if you want to keep the same people involved though
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[LewisCowles] even to chat as it's throwaway and the log issue won't be there for anyone to clear
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[jgmac1106] ..You pin medals on the parade ground (main chat)... Want to discuss community issues meta please
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[LewisCowles] I'll defer to everyone's wider knowledge / cognisance of the channel system
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[snarfed] "track changes" is one common non-technical term
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[KevinMarks] My broader point is one I made here http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/05/keep-all-versions.html - the default world view is shifting
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chrisaldrich KevinMarks, perhaps it's the mathematician/scientist at my core (or maybe the packrat), but I've always wanted to keep everything, I just didn't always have an easy way to discuss it or actually implement it.
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[tantek] storage is still limited on mobile, and mobile networks are still slow
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chrisaldrich Part of my initial conversation for including all those terms here was to attempt to unify and possibly simplify them and bring them down to a more inclusive overall definition. Apologies for the context collapse of going from a two hour conversation in video to here.
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[tantek] ah, that context helps explain what happened. still I'd say such ideating/brainstorming to unify and simplify when starting with developer terms, should start in the #indieweb-dev channel
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[tantek] taking that to meta
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BillSeitz tactical question.... I recently got IndieAuth working for my site again. But when I log in anywhere with it, the remote site shows my ID/name(?) as "Webseitz.fluxent.com wiki FrontPage" rather than "Bill Seitz". How do I fix that? I suspect it's in some combo of rel="me" and h-card. http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/FrontPage
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[tantek] BillSeitz, that may require some developer-level configuration of your MediaWiki, would you be ok continuing that discussion in the #indieweb-dev channel?
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BillSeitz It a custom engine, not MediaWiki, but sure I'll change channels.
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[tantek] wow yeah, a "custom engine" is even more good reason to use the dev channel 🙂
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BillSeitz /join #indieweb-dev
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BillSeitz oops guess that doesn't work here - do I have to dig out my IRC client?
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Zegnat Are you on the web chat BillSeitz? You should be able to click on the left
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Zegnat Or on mobile, hit the hamburger menu icon to switch channels
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BillSeitz Didn't see indieweb-dev there, got my Colloquy up and i'm in there in freenode.
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Zegnat Ah, it is just called #dev there
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jacky what is unlisted
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Loqi unlisted are publicly visible posts that are not included in a homepage or feed(s), and are typically excluded from site search features and broader web search services https://indieweb.org/unlisted
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jacky hm okay
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jacky that matches what I was thinking
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[snarfed] unlisted++
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Loqi unlisted has 2 karma over the last year
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jacky I'm updating some tests to confirm that it shouildn't appear in feeds
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jacky or rather
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jacky shouldn't have feeds that can be used for websub
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[snarfed] tests++
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Loqi tests has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (18 in all channels)
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[snarfed] jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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jacky haha ty
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[tantek] what is watch?
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Loqi A watch is a semi-passive type of post used to publish that you have watched a video (movie, TV, film), or a live show (theater, concert) https://indieweb.org/watch
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[tantek] Interesting, no mention of YouTube on the /watch page.
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[tantek] Does anyone publish /watch posts for YouTube videos that they watch? Or possibly even have an automated way to PESOS their watch posts from YouTube to their own site?
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doubleloop1 Zegnat: ooh, nototo.app looks really interesting. Likewise, as you said, I think I'd probably like to note-take just in text, and visualise it/rearrange it on a map afterwards.
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[tantek] I also checked the /YouTube page and there is a way to export (partially?) what you've watched so I'm also curious if anyone has backfilled their viewings of YouTube videos to their own site
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GWG [tantek]: A few people have tried to work on that. There's an issue with exporting watch history, last time I checked. But that was a while ago
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[tantek] GWG, do you know of any examples of anyone publishing YouTube /watch posts? Otherwise I'm going to make something up
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GWG [tantek]: No, but I'd like to see one.
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GWG It's probably close to the people who post other types...I know cleverdevil linked Trakt to his site for that.
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[tantek] I'll see what I can do
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GWG Although I am not sure about how he marked it up. If I recall, I think it was h-item
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[tantek] searching my old posts and brainstorming now
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[tantek] GWG, I found two past "raw" (unformatted) examples on my site, I'll add to the wiki
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doubleloop1 [tantek]: do you mean like this? https://doubleloop.net/kind/watch/
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GWG I'll have a look.
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doubleloop1 I use the watch post kind in the WordPress plugin sometimes with YouTube videos
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GWG doubleloop1: That's the format I did for a generic sort of watch in Post Kinds.
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GWG I would like to improve it, as it isn't much different from Listen, Read, etc.
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GWG I think the presentation can be improved
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GWG doubleloop1: The latest version of Parse This does a lot more with YouTube, but I haven't pushed a new Post Kinds to use it
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[tantek] doubleloop1: ooh I like the play icon! ▶
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[tantek] GWG, I added a couple of examples of my "proto-watch" posts with youtube links here: https://indieweb.org/watch#Tantek