#indieweb 2020-06-09

2020-06-09 UTC
wolftune, [tantek] and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich]
This Twitter thread is a fascinating question about feeds and design from someone who thinks deeply about the news space: https://web.archive.org/web/20200609020318/https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270047272940769280.html I'm curious what other think.
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[chrisaldrich]
It seems like the sort of discussion that would make an interesting session at /2020/West.
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vilhalmer
the point about mind maps is good, I've always felt like they should be useful but they always feel so overwhelming to use for some reason
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vilhalmer
maybe the tooling for moving things spacially just isn't there yet
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[KevinMarks]
a lot of so-called mind maps are really hierarchies that do their own layout
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[KevinMarks]
Prezi was close to a real mind map that remember space
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vilhalmer
it's also possible that I just can't decode my own mind well enough to use one :P
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[KevinMarks]
mural.co is interesting for a shared post-its on a whiteboard thing
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[chrisaldrich]
There are some interesting patterns in wikis that may make news updats/changes more interesting too...
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[chrisaldrich]
finishes some scrollback and thinks there's some overlap with petermolnar's question about time ordered archives. Could there be a more interesting way of linking through these sorts of things by taxonomies rather than dates/times?
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[chrisaldrich]
finishes some scrollback and thinks there's some overlap with petermolnar's question about time ordered archives. Could there be a more interesting way of linking through these sorts of things by taxonomies rather than dates/times?
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[chrisaldrich]
finishes some scrollback and thinks there's some overlap with petermolnar's question about time ordered archives. Could there be a more interesting way of linking through these sorts of things by taxonomies rather than dates/times?
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KartikPrabhu
HTML is not conducive to non-linear relations
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GWG
Working on something for June 10th, on my website
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[tantek]
^^^ this. I've often felt the concept of a "mind map" is way overhyped
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[tantek]
oops scroll state fail
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KartikPrabhu
mind maps are useful I use them all the time on paper
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[tantek]
KartikPrabhu HTML by itself isn't, however HTML + hyperlinks across documents are
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[tantek]
are mind maps anything more than hierarchical lists using polar layout?
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KartikPrabhu
yes! there can be non-linear connections between the "nodes"
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[tantek]
ah, not a strict hiearchy ok
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KartikPrabhu
those are the actual useful consequences of drawing mind maps
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KartikPrabhu
they help find/visualize those not-obvious connections
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KartikPrabhu
and those are the ones which are hard to markup
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KartikPrabhu
in a single visual HTML document
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[tantek]
yes. hard to do that without universal ID / IDREF attributes
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[tantek]
but possible
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KartikPrabhu
right. and displaying the mind map visually would need a lot of CSS/JS wrnagling
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[tantek]
that sounds like a fun project for someone that understands the full utility of mind maps, an HTML+CSS+JS mindmap starter project you can clone and add to the markup / links, and get the layout / interactivity automatically
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[tantek]
like a shower.js for mind maps
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[tantek]
maybe that's more a conversation for dev though, since I said project ๐Ÿ™‚
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I am sure there are many CC+JS utilities for mindmaps. The point is they are hard to markup in HTML or mf2
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KartikPrabhu
I don't think the markup is needed. Since to me mind maps are visual not markup
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[tantek]
that's what I mean, a start framework that makes it *easy* to markup in HTML
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Loqi
[David Shanske] Retroposting For Fun
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[tantek]
starter*
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KartikPrabhu
[tantek]: wow that is a hard project to give someone :P
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KartikPrabhu
HTML is hieracrhical by nature
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KartikPrabhu
JSON-LD or Schema people would say it is easy ;)
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[tantek]
backs away slowly
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KartikPrabhu
good choice :P
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KartikPrabhu
mostly it is about representing graphs vs representing trees
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KartikPrabhu
an example is what indiemap does
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KartikPrabhu
but it has to use some external tool to visualize it
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GWG
Well, now that I've finished with the nostalgia, I'm off. Maybe tomorrow I'll do more.
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[LewisCowles]
KartikPrabhu, perhaps one for dev, but hyperlinks exist in HTML and can be referential. By that definition of "hieracrhical by nature" you could argue all things are hierarchical.
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KartikPrabhu
I don't think I can argue "all things are heirarchical, because I know things which are not. Secondly, that is why I mentioned that you need some CSS+JS tricks to visually display mind maps
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KartikPrabhu
you can use links and url to connect non-linearly to other documents, sure. But how do you display them on your website?
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[LewisCowles]
Do you have examples of non-hierarchical things? Also again, I think this is one for #indieweb-dev
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KartikPrabhu
sure a mind map or in mathy terms a graph
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[LewisCowles]
An abstract mathematical graph takes on implementation properties, and infers an outer context or category (hierarchy). When implemented, which in this case would be published for the web. It is impossible to retain abstract mathematical properties. to side-step the math graphs are hierarchical for a moment, computer displays of them have to be as you have a logical sequence between the need to define nodes and the connections between them.
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[LewisCowles]
Neo4J has a browser which is great at displaying arbitrary graph visualisations
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KartikPrabhu
yes. all I am saying is you can't reprsent them in one HTML page
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KartikPrabhu
I am *not* saying that graphs can't be represented or visualized! jeez!
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KartikPrabhu
mathematica can display graphs, I can display graphs on paper by drawing
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[LewisCowles]
Neo4J, using HTML, CSS, JS (possibly SVG) *does* display parts of a graph on one page. You don't need paper. I'll stop as it's clear this is frustrating both of us
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KartikPrabhu
I already acknowleged that you can use CSS+JS to do so
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KartikPrabhu
you can't represent it in HTML
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KartikPrabhu
HTML is heirachical
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KartikPrabhu
there always is another layer: 1) some code that takes all the links and assembles them into a visual graph (kind of like what indiemap uses) or use have to use CSs, JS, or SVG, or some graphical format to do so
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KartikPrabhu
back to indieweb context: the only thing I can see to do is to take the list of posts one wants to display, and then use some JS to traverse the mutual links between them and display them as a "mind map" or a graph
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[chrisaldrich]
I keep meaning to document it on the wiki, but my TiddlyWiki uses TiddlyMap to create a sort of mind map or visualization of links that appear within the site. Try http://tw.boffosocko.com/#Memory and click on the "map" tab on the right hand side with the "live view" selected.
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[chrisaldrich]
Seeing the interconnections visually has been an interesting tool to play with at times.
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Loqi
Chris Aldrich
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KartikPrabhu
[chrisaldrich]: the "map" tab gives me a bunch of options, the defaults give nothing
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KartikPrabhu
as in "no connections found"
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[chrisaldrich]
the default view doesn't have anything in it... choose the "live view" in the "views" drop down.
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[chrisaldrich]
It also requires that you're within a particular tiddler and it shows the links related to that card.
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[chrisaldrich]
I ought to go in and "build" some specific views, but I haven't worked with it very much beyond some basics.
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KartikPrabhu
which one is the "views" dropdown? I don't see a "live view" thing
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KartikPrabhu
oh got it now
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[chrisaldrich]
http://tiddlymap.org/ may have some better live demos since I've not done as much with mine beyond some basic defaults.
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[chrisaldrich]
I also realize that there are so many links into and out of that particular card that the map piece slows the site way down...
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KartikPrabhu
yeah tiddlymap and tiddlywiki is doing some very fancy stuff there behind the scenes
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KartikPrabhu
yeah my laptop fans started spinning
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[chrisaldrich]
there's a setting for the "neighborhood scope" hiding in there too which can cut down on how far out the map goes...
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KartikPrabhu
right. mostly re-enforcing my point that it is complicated :)
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[chrisaldrich]
I definitely wouldn't have built this myself... ๐Ÿ™‚
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[chrisaldrich]
But I'm not going to complain that it exists either.
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KartikPrabhu
of course
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[chrisaldrich]
It would be an interesting tool to have on top of something like Wikipedia...
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[KevinMarks]
SVG seems like the best way to mark up a mind map where the position is significant. You could do it with absolute position in html.
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@swardley
Most things that we call maps in business aren't actually maps ... they are graphs. You can tell by simply moving components and looking for whether the context changes. In a map, any movement changes context. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EO7NY6FUUAAeUEa.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/1220138581060018176)
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KartikPrabhu
semantics (?)
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KartikPrabhu
maps mean different things in different contexts, if you change the context a map is not a map!
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KartikPrabhu
taking the analogy with geography is not useful
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KartikPrabhu
in fact what most people call graph is a "chart"
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[KevinMarks]1
It is useful in Wardley's context, and also in the distinction between actual mind map software and those that are really outliners that draw a spiral
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
!tell GWG retroposting as a phrase introduces interesting thoughts, like 80s mainframe interface to post on WordPress :)
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petermolnar
regarding IWC West: what's the highest number of people we tested Zoom with?
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petermolnar
(I know, this is a bit -meta)
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KartikPrabhu
I have done 20-25 but not in IWC
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KartikPrabhu
well actually I have done about 200 I think
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KartikPrabhu
large class to help teach :P
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petermolnar
what kind of hardware did you run it on? My laptop isn't always happy with zoom, and becomes rather hot, hence the question.
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I have a small "business" laptop too. I had to close down all browsers, pdfs and Slack to do it
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[tantek]
petermolnar, questions about IWC logistics are better for #indieweb-meta ๐Ÿ™‚
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KartikPrabhu
no graphics card etc...
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[tantek]
GWG, what do you mean by a retropost?
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GWG
[tantek]: One where everything, including the date, is as if you posted it the day you are setting it to. So in example, June 10, 2013
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Loqi
GWG: petermolnar left you a message 22 minutes ago: retroposting as a phrase introduces interesting thoughts, like 80s mainframe interface to post on WordPress :)
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KartikPrabhu
what is futured?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "futured" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "futured is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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KartikPrabhu
hmm damn!
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KartikPrabhu
what is backpost?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "backpost" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "backpost is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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KartikPrabhu
hmm, I am sure I have done that for posts I have "imported" from silos like Blogger
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[tantek]
what is backfill
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Loqi
backfill is the action of importing all your past posts, typically from a social media silo, into your own site https://indieweb.org/backfill
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[KevinMarks]
Is back posting more like what you were doing in documenting a series of recent days?
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[KevinMarks]
Or like when your flickr was often fron a few weeks ago?
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GWG
[KevinMarks]: I would put backposting as writing something today about what happened in the past...what I'm doing is different as I am creating backdated content...so it appears in my 2013 archive page....and unless you look at the updated date... you wouldn't know it was new
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GWG
In one of these, I had modern me doing editor's notes
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jeremycherfas
Good morning IndieWeb
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GWG
Morning, jeremycherfas
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jeremycherfas
Morning GWG
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GWG
jeremycherfas: What do you think about backdating posts?
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jeremycherfas
As in your retroposting? I think it doesn't matter when you write about something, as long as you acknowledge that the date written is not the same as the date of what you are writing about.
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jeremycherfas
I have had minor problems of this nature as I bring in old posts from previous CMSs. I check all the links, and find ones that work where I can (which is why it takes so long). If I just add a working link, I don't change anything about the post. If I do more, or have a comment from my current self to add, I do so with the date on which I do it.
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GWG
jeremycherfas: I need to highlight the updated date on my posts, I suppose
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jeremycherfas
I'm not sure you do (though I have not looked at the latest one) As long as it is there, somewhere.
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GWG
It's not visible... though it is in the HTML
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GWG
I should enhance that.
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GWG
How do people show last updated vs publish dates?
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petermolnar
I have a sentence like footer for entries, which is also a h-card, eg. Created by <author>, last modified at <mtime>, originally published at <pubdate>, to canonical URL <permalink>. Sometimes there's more info in there. pubdate is the original date that's in the post header; mtime is the actual file mtime. I don't keep track of updated times.
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[KevinMarks]
Early drafts of Atom distinguished created/published/updated but created was dropped
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GWG
I have both in the HTML, but updated is hidden... but I might reconsider that... I inherited it
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nekr0z
I have dt-published in header and dt-updated in footer with human-readable "last updated on" mark beside it.
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jeremycherfas
GWG Having now read the post, I don't think you need to surface date updated; it didn't exist before. All you have done is create a backdated post.
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GWG
These are all the posts I actually added yesterday
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GWG
They are photo posts, set to the time and location they were taken
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jeremycherfas
Yes. I know. I just said ^^^ I had read them. And sent a webmention.
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GWG
I thought you read the post... wasn't sure if you looked at the individual posts it referred to. Just checking
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jeremycherfas
Did you get my webmention?
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GWG
Yes, I have to moderate it... you aren't on my auto approve list...
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jeremycherfas
Just wanted to know that my end worked.
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GWG
Came in by phone notification
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GWG
I need actionable notifications
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GWG
As in.. button on phone notification... wonder if that is possible
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GWG
Visible now, and you are on the approve list
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GWG
jeremycherfas: I also have https://david.shanske.com/onthisday/06/10 which would give you every June 10th.
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[chrisaldrich]
quotation << https://tomcritchlow.com/2020/06/09/quotebacks/ a browser extension for quickly quoting pages on the web in your website
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Loqi
ok, I added "https://tomcritchlow.com/2020/06/09/quotebacks/ a browser extension for quickly quoting pages on the web in your website" to the "See Also" section of /quotation https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70285&oldid=60013
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[chrisaldrich]
GWG, some WordPress themes show "updated" date/time stamp visually, though not many. Independent Publisher had an option in the customizer to show it that seemed like a pretty nice feature as I recall.
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GWG
[chrisaldrich]: I might experiment with it in testing to see if I like it
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GWG
Also, you made only one post in June of 2013
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GWG
I looked at various community members when playing with this
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GWG
aaronpk was the only one I found in a quick search who posted on the 10th
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[chrisaldrich]
My posting velocity didn't begin picking up until 2016 when I started owning more of my posts.
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GWG
Where were you posting in 2013?
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GWG
I need to go through posts I exported before I deleted some accounts and post them or not
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chrisaldrich
I just automated creating stars on Github to PESOS to my website as bookmarks: https://boffosocko.com/2020/06/09/55772030/
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[tantek]
Facebook << Criticism, used for surveillance by white supremacists, thread: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1270435235776221184
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Loqi
ok, I added "Criticism, used for surveillance by white supremacists, thread: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1270435235776221184" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70287&oldid=69266
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "An Idea on Following People (or Organizations or Whomever) in the IndieWeb for Lwa" https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/1149bdd8-a3ac-43b8-b15e-94387bc136d7
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[jgmac1106]
Jacky++ for blogging as chat synthesis
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Loqi
Jacky has 22 karma in this channel over the last year (85 in all channels)
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jacky
aaronpk: is there a way to do highlight "ranges' for the Web chat?
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[tantek]
Jacky++ beautiful synthesis and extrapolations
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Loqi
Jacky has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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aaronpk
I know I've thought about doing that for the logs, I just don't remember if I actually have
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jacky
I meant the logs :)
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aaronpk
I figured
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[tantek]
Start end time query params?
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[KevinMarks]
You could use the found poetry syntax
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[jgmac1106]
That is what I used for log ranges mf2 for start and end...not that anybody could or does consume info
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[jgmac1106]
Been archiving a lot of logs as research artifacts
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Loqi
schmarty has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (61 in all channels)
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@jimwaterson
Final update on the thread of news dystopia: Microsoftโ€™s artificial intelligence news app is now swamped with stories selected by the news robot about the news robot backfiring. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaFgHZtXYAEN0b_.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/1270402254412144642)
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[KevinMarks]
This is like cyc inferring "everyone is either famous or works on cyc"
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aaronpk
why do they keep trying AI stuff that goes horribly wrong?
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[KevinMarks]
Because it looks OK on their test data before it connects to the consequences of its own output. See also Google search and twitter anti troll code
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KartikPrabhu
weird how many scientists don't realize that the "test data" has an implicit bias. In a lot of situations this bias does not have very horrible consequences, but with news feeds and anything human-related it does!
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[schmarty]
Haha thanks, jacky! I tried a thing and it didn't go. But a negative result is a result!
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[snarfed]
schmarty++ as usual smarter than all of academia
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Loqi
schmarty has 15 karma in this channel over the last year (62 in all channels)
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