#indieweb 2020-06-09
2020-06-09 UTC
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[chrisaldrich] This Twitter thread is a fascinating question about feeds and design from someone who thinks deeply about the news space: https://web.archive.org/web/20200609020318/https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270047272940769280.html I'm curious what other think.
# [chrisaldrich] It seems like the sort of discussion that would make an interesting session at /2020/West.
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[KevinMarks] a lot of so-called mind maps are really hierarchies that do their own layout
# [KevinMarks] Prezi was close to a real mind map that remember space
# [KevinMarks] mural.co is interesting for a shared post-its on a whiteboard thing
# [chrisaldrich] There are some interesting patterns in wikis that may make news updats/changes more interesting too...
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# [chrisaldrich] finishes some scrollback and thinks there's some overlap with petermolnar's question about time ordered archives. Could there be a more interesting way of linking through these sorts of things by taxonomies rather than dates/times?
# [chrisaldrich] finishes some scrollback and thinks there's some overlap with petermolnar's question about time ordered archives. Could there be a more interesting way of linking through these sorts of things by taxonomies rather than dates/times?
# [chrisaldrich] finishes some scrollback and thinks there's some overlap with petermolnar's question about time ordered archives. Could there be a more interesting way of linking through these sorts of things by taxonomies rather than dates/times?
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KartikPrabhu HTML is not conducive to non-linear relations
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# KartikPrabhu mind maps are useful I use them all the time on paper
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# KartikPrabhu yes! there can be non-linear connections between the "nodes"
# KartikPrabhu yes
# KartikPrabhu those are the actual useful consequences of drawing mind maps
# KartikPrabhu they help find/visualize those not-obvious connections
# KartikPrabhu and those are the ones which are hard to markup
# KartikPrabhu in a single visual HTML document
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# KartikPrabhu right. and displaying the mind map visually would need a lot of CSS/JS wrnagling
# KartikPrabhu yeah I am sure there are many CC+JS utilities for mindmaps. The point is they are hard to markup in HTML or mf2
# KartikPrabhu I don't think the markup is needed. Since to me mind maps are visual not markup
# 
GWG This is what I do in quarantine... https://david.shanske.com/2020/06/09/retroposting/
# KartikPrabhu [tantek]: wow that is a hard project to give someone :P
# KartikPrabhu HTML is hieracrhical by nature
# KartikPrabhu JSON-LD or Schema people would say it is easy ;)
# KartikPrabhu good choice :P
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# KartikPrabhu mostly it is about representing graphs vs representing trees
# KartikPrabhu an example is what indiemap does
# KartikPrabhu but it has to use some external tool to visualize it
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[LewisCowles] KartikPrabhu, perhaps one for dev, but hyperlinks exist in HTML and can be referential. By that definition of "hieracrhical by nature" you could argue all things are hierarchical.
# KartikPrabhu I don't think I can argue "all things are heirarchical, because I know things which are not. Secondly, that is why I mentioned that you need some CSS+JS tricks to visually display mind maps
# KartikPrabhu you can use links and url to connect non-linearly to other documents, sure. But how do you display them on your website?
# [LewisCowles] Do you have examples of non-hierarchical things? Also again, I think this is one for #indieweb-dev
# KartikPrabhu sure a mind map or in mathy terms a graph
# [LewisCowles] An abstract mathematical graph takes on implementation properties, and infers an outer context or category (hierarchy). When implemented, which in this case would be published for the web. It is impossible to retain abstract mathematical properties. to side-step the math graphs are hierarchical for a moment, computer displays of them have to be as you have a logical sequence between the need to define nodes and the connections between them.
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# [LewisCowles] Neo4J has a browser which is great at displaying arbitrary graph visualisations
# KartikPrabhu yes. all I am saying is you can't reprsent them in one HTML page
# KartikPrabhu I am *not* saying that graphs can't be represented or visualized! jeez!
# KartikPrabhu mathematica can display graphs, I can display graphs on paper by drawing
# [LewisCowles] Neo4J, using HTML, CSS, JS (possibly SVG) *does* display parts of a graph on one page. You don't need paper. I'll stop as it's clear this is frustrating both of us
# KartikPrabhu I already acknowleged that you can use CSS+JS to do so
# KartikPrabhu you can't represent it in HTML
# KartikPrabhu HTML is heirachical
# KartikPrabhu there always is another layer: 1) some code that takes all the links and assembles them into a visual graph (kind of like what indiemap uses) or use have to use CSs, JS, or SVG, or some graphical format to do so
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# KartikPrabhu back to indieweb context: the only thing I can see to do is to take the list of posts one wants to display, and then use some JS to traverse the mutual links between them and display them as a "mind map" or a graph
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# [chrisaldrich] I keep meaning to document it on the wiki, but my TiddlyWiki uses TiddlyMap to create a sort of mind map or visualization of links that appear within the site. Try http://tw.boffosocko.com/#Memory and click on the "map" tab on the right hand side with the "live view" selected.
# [chrisaldrich] Seeing the interconnections visually has been an interesting tool to play with at times.
# KartikPrabhu [chrisaldrich]: the "map" tab gives me a bunch of options, the defaults give nothing
# KartikPrabhu as in "no connections found"
# [chrisaldrich] the default view doesn't have anything in it... choose the "live view" in the "views" drop down.
# [chrisaldrich] It also requires that you're within a particular tiddler and it shows the links related to that card.
# [chrisaldrich] I ought to go in and "build" some specific views, but I haven't worked with it very much beyond some basics.
# KartikPrabhu which one is the "views" dropdown? I don't see a "live view" thing
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# [chrisaldrich] Looks roughly like this: https://imgur.com/a/wAoGkC6
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# KartikPrabhu oh got it now
# [chrisaldrich] http://tiddlymap.org/ may have some better live demos since I've not done as much with mine beyond some basic defaults.
# [chrisaldrich] I also realize that there are so many links into and out of that particular card that the map piece slows the site way down...
# KartikPrabhu yeah tiddlymap and tiddlywiki is doing some very fancy stuff there behind the scenes
# KartikPrabhu yeah my laptop fans started spinning
# KartikPrabhu :P
# [chrisaldrich] there's a setting for the "neighborhood scope" hiding in there too which can cut down on how far out the map goes...
# KartikPrabhu right. mostly re-enforcing my point that it is complicated :)
# [chrisaldrich] I definitely wouldn't have built this myself... 🙂
# [chrisaldrich] But I'm not going to complain that it exists either.
# KartikPrabhu of course
# [chrisaldrich] It would be an interesting tool to have on top of something like Wikipedia...
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# [KevinMarks] SVG seems like the best way to mark up a mind map where the position is significant. You could do it with absolute position in html.
# KartikPrabhu sure
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@swardley Most things that we call maps in business aren't actually maps ... they are graphs. You can tell by simply moving components and looking for whether the context changes. In a map, any movement changes context. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EO7NY6FUUAAeUEa.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1220138581060018176)
# KartikPrabhu semantics (?)
# KartikPrabhu maps mean different things in different contexts, if you change the context a map is not a map!
# KartikPrabhu taking the analogy with geography is not useful
# KartikPrabhu in fact what most people call graph is a "chart"
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# [KevinMarks]1 It is useful in Wardley's context, and also in the distinction between actual mind map software and those that are really outliners that draw a spiral
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petermolnar !tell GWG retroposting as a phrase introduces interesting thoughts, like 80s mainframe interface to post on WordPress :)
# petermolnar regarding IWC West: what's the highest number of people we tested Zoom with?
# petermolnar (I know, this is a bit -meta)
# KartikPrabhu I have done 20-25 but not in IWC
# KartikPrabhu well actually I have done about 200 I think
# KartikPrabhu large class to help teach :P
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# petermolnar what kind of hardware did you run it on? My laptop isn't always happy with zoom, and becomes rather hot, hence the question.
# KartikPrabhu yeah I have a small "business" laptop too. I had to close down all browsers, pdfs and Slack to do it
# KartikPrabhu no graphics card etc...
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# KartikPrabhu what is futured?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "futured" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "futured is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# KartikPrabhu hmm damn!
# KartikPrabhu what is backpost?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "backpost" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "backpost is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# KartikPrabhu hmm, I am sure I have done that for posts I have "imported" from silos like Blogger
# Loqi backfill is the action of importing all your past posts, typically from a social media silo, into your own site https://indieweb.org/backfill
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# [KevinMarks] Is back posting more like what you were doing in documenting a series of recent days?
# [KevinMarks] Or like when your flickr was often fron a few weeks ago?
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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@Lambilyofmariaa If Mariah Carey had an Instagram in the 90s: A thread. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ92qcGVcAA58jb.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1269864124734795776)
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# jeremycherfas Morning GWG
# jeremycherfas As in your retroposting? I think it doesn't matter when you write about something, as long as you acknowledge that the date written is not the same as the date of what you are writing about.
# jeremycherfas I have had minor problems of this nature as I bring in old posts from previous CMSs. I check all the links, and find ones that work where I can (which is why it takes so long). If I just add a working link, I don't change anything about the post. If I do more, or have a comment from my current self to add, I do so with the date on which I do it.
# jeremycherfas I'm not sure you do (though I have not looked at the latest one) As long as it is there, somewhere.
# petermolnar I have a sentence like footer for entries, which is also a h-card, eg. Created by <author>, last modified at <mtime>, originally published at <pubdate>, to canonical URL <permalink>. Sometimes there's more info in there. pubdate is the original date that's in the post header; mtime is the actual file mtime. I don't keep track of updated times.
# [KevinMarks] Early drafts of Atom distinguished created/published/updated but created was dropped
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# jeremycherfas GWG Having now read the post, I don't think you need to surface date updated; it didn't exist before. All you have done is create a backdated post.
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# GWG jeremycherfas: https://david.shanske.com/2013/06/10/
# jeremycherfas Yes. I know. I just said ^^^ I had read them. And sent a webmention.
# jeremycherfas Did you get my webmention?
# jeremycherfas Just wanted to know that my end worked.
# GWG jeremycherfas: I also have https://david.shanske.com/onthisday/06/10 which would give you every June 10th.
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# [chrisaldrich] quotation << https://tomcritchlow.com/2020/06/09/quotebacks/ a browser extension for quickly quoting pages on the web in your website
# Loqi ok, I added "https://tomcritchlow.com/2020/06/09/quotebacks/ a browser extension for quickly quoting pages on the web in your website" to the "See Also" section of /quotation https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70285&oldid=60013
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# [chrisaldrich] GWG, some WordPress themes show "updated" date/time stamp visually, though not many. Independent Publisher had an option in the customizer to show it that seemed like a pretty nice feature as I recall.
# [chrisaldrich] My posting velocity didn't begin picking up until 2016 when I started owning more of my posts.
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# chrisaldrich I just automated creating stars on Github to PESOS to my website as bookmarks: https://boffosocko.com/2020/06/09/55772030/
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[tantek] Facebook << Criticism, used for surveillance by white supremacists, thread: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1270435235776221184
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@doctorow Writing in @propublica, reporter @wendi_c_thomas describes how she discovered that the cops in Memphis, her town, were spying on her. https://www.propublica.org/article/the-police-have-been-spying-on-black-reporters-and-activists-for-years-i-know-because-im-one-of-them 1/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaF6Ur4UMAE23kO.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1270435235776221184)
# Loqi ok, I added "Criticism, used for surveillance by white supremacists, thread: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1270435235776221184" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70287&oldid=69266
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# Loqi [indienews] New post: "An Idea on Following People (or Organizations or Whomever) in the IndieWeb for Lwa" https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/1149bdd8-a3ac-43b8-b15e-94387bc136d7
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[jgmac1106] Jacky++ for blogging as chat synthesis
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# [KevinMarks] You could use the found poetry syntax
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# [jgmac1106] That is what I used for log ranges mf2 for start and end...not that anybody could or does consume info
# [jgmac1106] Been archiving a lot of logs as research artifacts
# [KevinMarks] Not sure where this chaos belongs on the wiki https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1270402254412144642
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@jimwaterson Final update on the thread of news dystopia: Microsoft’s artificial intelligence news app is now swamped with stories selected by the news robot about the news robot backfiring. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaFgHZtXYAEN0b_.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1270402254412144642)
# [KevinMarks] This is like cyc inferring "everyone is either famous or works on cyc"
# [KevinMarks] Because it looks OK on their test data before it connects to the consequences of its own output. See also Google search and twitter anti troll code
# KartikPrabhu weird how many scientists don't realize that the "test data" has an implicit bias. In a lot of situations this bias does not have very horrible consequences, but with news feeds and anything human-related it does!
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[schmarty] Haha thanks, jacky! I tried a thing and it didn't go. But a negative result is a result!
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