#indieweb 2020-09-14
2020-09-14 UTC
KempfCreative, gRegorLove, [chrisaldrich], ndegruchy, sp1ff, jonnybarnes, cam, beko, jeremycherfas, Nuve, a_chou, toupain, Adrian_F, opal, awolf, nickodd, [jeremycherfas], markopasha, [James_Gallaghe], swentel and brian1 joined the channel
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petermolnar ok, that Social Dilemma is worth watching, just skip the intro and start ~5 minutes.
# petermolnar finally something that gives actual real guidelines as well in the final ~4 minutes
# petermolnar on a different note: if indienews were to receive "syndicated" salmentions (salmention of anything that's coming in on the source material) that could be used as a vote/reaction counter, reddit/digg/hn style. I'm not sure it's something worth pursuing, it was just a thought that came.
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[chrisaldrich] petermolnar, I recall correctly, I remember aaron saying that a voting mechanism was written into part of it, but just never activated...
# petermolnar heh
# petermolnar of course aaronpk thought about is already
# [chrisaldrich] Almost everything posted there is valuable and interesting though, so not gamifying it, may be the better choice.
# petermolnar I agree
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[James_Gallaghe] Is there an IndieWeb platform where you can share movie / documentary recommendations using micropub? 😄
# [James_Gallaghe] My hesitation about The Social Dilemma is that it looks like yet another “big tech needs to change” call-to-arms. petermolnar was there anything in specific that you took away from the documentary?
# [James_Gallaghe] The trailer looks great but so do most trailers!
# [James_Gallaghe] Oh, seeing the discussion in #indieweb-chat …
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[tonz] Thinking about bringing slide decks now on Slideshare / Scribd ‘home’ to self-hosting. What would be options? Using a basic hosting package (possibly limited storage), or cloud storage (possibly hard to embed in viewer / or link to as it won’t have webaccessible URLs by default), any things between those two?
jonnybarnes, [Ana_Rodrigues], bleb, djmoch, lahacker, peterrother, [Murray], [pfefferle], toupain, qa5, kensp, jeremycherfas, anotheryou, inkjama and supercoven joined the channel
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Improving My Website Feed" https://jamesg.blog/2020/09/14/improving-my-website-feed.html
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# schmudde Is there a list of websites that support IndieAuth login? Perhaps there a wordpress webring for sites that use the plugin?
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[jgmac1106] exporting Google Slides to svg works I have been doing that..but the svg isn't accessible which is silly they could render the text vectors
# [jgmac1106] teachers use a bunch of third party things like peardeck and voicethread and just embed the iframes...or they use a gdoc iframe
# [jgmac1106] the big thing in the teacher crowd right now is the "hyperdoc" https://www.cultofpedagogy.com/hyperdocs/ almost all of them made by styling tables inside of GDocs...its like the web from 1999 but stuck in Google Docs
# schmudde ^^^ yikes. That description makes me hurt inside.
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# [jgmac1106] that is what is considered the gold standard in k12 tech teaching schmuddle...its an update to something we used to do called webquests...way more open web...it was the styling by tables where I find my irony
# [jgmac1106] and most use this for the design paradigm: https://nasaeclips.arc.nasa.gov/teachertoolbox/the5e
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# [jgmac1106] [manton] just tweeted this https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/1305460764808024066 (not on website yet as I crashed my servers this weekend)
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@jgmac1106 Almost all disinformation happens on nine web properties. Facebook owns four of them. Best way to fight disinformation is to quit Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp. Encourage family, especially older relatives, to do the same #BoycottFacebook (twitter.com/_/status/1305460764808024066)
# [jgmac1106] be neat if we could make a counter for people who take the Blocktober pledge or join silo-quits during Blocktober
# [jgmac1106] in other news we secured 35k in grants to build out the http://tech-4-teens.club we started this summer
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# schmudde [jgmac1106]: congrats and RT'ed!
# schmudde I came into the conversation a little late, but I'm certainly interested in teaching on the web while avoiding content silos.
# schmudde I'm a big fan of these markdown converters that render natively in the browser (https://marp.app/). Seems like this would be something that could sync to a video with just a tiny amount of metadata.
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# [jgmac1106] [tonz] I need to search through my research but I think it was Twitter and Reddit, and the other ones can't recall will look after work
# [jgmac1106] @schmudde we worked on a course generator plugin for Known and I have a bunch of IndieWeb course templates on Glitch
# [jgmac1106] but I am an HTML person more than markdown...I am sure snowboarding is awesome but I already know how to ski...and it gets me down mountain fine
# [jgmac1106] [tonz] the biggest threat in US right now is Spanish speaking Whats-App channels and very anti-semitic https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/14/florida-latinos-disinformation-413923
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# eneri eneri
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# eneri Hello, I would like to set up an indie website using blogger. But I can't seem to find the h-card that is said to be in the microformats wiki. Please help
# schmudde [jgmac1106]: ah I'll take a look at your glitch.
# schmudde eneri: I haven't used blogger. It may also be possible to put it in manually? I just put my h-card in the footer of my website: https://schmud.de/
# [jgmac1106] eneri I have an example but you have to install the classic templates and then edit them
# [jgmac1106] one sec lemme track it down
# [jgmac1106] eneri here it is: https://drmacsspot.blogspot.com/ I use Bridgy for webmentions and IFTT to publish to Twitter
# [jgmac1106] I haven't looked at the Blogger tutorials in awhile since I wrote them...not sure if there have been any UI changes on Google's end
# [jgmac1106] enri looks like I wrote a post about how to do it http://drmacsspot.blogspot.com/2019/02/mrkndvs-making-indieweb-blogger-theme.html
# eneri Thanks. I've read it and there's a section about cutting and paste the theme in your GitHub. Is it the code I am supposed to use?
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# [jgmac1106] suprising Microsoft sold slideshare maybe they have real insights into nobody actually clicks through slides on LinkedIn
# [jgmac1106] eneri yes, unless you want a better understanding of microformats, the metadata behind all the magic, then try yourself and ask for help
# [jgmac1106] but if you copy the template you will have a proper working IndieWeb setup on Blogger
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# eneri @jgmac1106 Okay thanks
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# [chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106]++ for tech-4-teens, that's great news!
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[manton] [jgmac1106] Good tweet. I just posted this: https://www.manton.org/2020/09/14/stop-using-facebook.html
# [chrisaldrich] [James_Gallaghe] Not micropub, but you can share movie/doc recommendations/reviews using webmention at indieweb.xyz which has a movies stub at https://indieweb.xyz/en/movies (or you could name and create your own specific sub-stub). It's a fun little discovery service that works much like news.indieweb.org.
# [chrisaldrich] For those who've been watching _The Social Dilemma_ (or designers in general), I've been reading David Dylan Thomas' book _Design for Cognitive Bias_ (A Book Apart, August 2020 https://abookapart.com/products/design-for-cognitive-bias) which covers a lot of the pitfalls of our brains and psychology that big social media is leveraging to manipulate us. It's got lots of examples and suggestions as well as ethics for helping mitigate some of
# [chrisaldrich] those harms.
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# [chrisaldrich] And because Twitter is watching me, this is the first thing that pops up when I open it to search for something this morning: https://twitter.com/oluoluoxenfree/status/1305266762687053830
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@oluoluoxenfree Is anyone in a book club/discussion group for 'ethics in tech' stuff? If no such thing exists, would anyone want to start one up? (twitter.com/_/status/1305266762687053830)
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# [James_Gallaghe] [chrisaldrich] I have started to syndicate my posts to IndieWeb.xyz. It does look like a cool platform.
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[tantek] If you feel like citing https://chat.indieweb.org/2020-09-13/1600035511205600 for it that's fine or even just attributing the IndieWeb community would be great
# [chrisaldrich] After watching The Social Dilemma, there are some higher level philosophical reasons we probably ought to add to the IndieWeb /why page with the relevant research and links. We're missing some of the broader cultural harms we're seeing/experiencing.
# [chrisaldrich] what are algorithms?
# Loqi An algorithm in general is a series of steps used to to automatically perform computations and other operations to produce a result; on the IndieWeb many standards have user-centric algorithms for peer to peer site interactions; social media silos have user-exploitative algorithms for advertising and reinforcing addictive behaviors https://indieweb.org/algorithms
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# [chrisaldrich] We just need to do a better job of bridging that gap. Especially now that there is better documentation in the last year or two.
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# [tantek] much of the "the relevant research and links" is already on pages specific to various silos, and I started adding to /social_media as well for some more general articles
# [tantek] what we need is progressive synthesis of that "relevant research and links", first local to each of those pages, and then generalizing to /social_media and then to /why
# [tantek] e.g. start with /Facebook#See_Also and see if you can help curate those links into a better organized /Facebook#Criticism section
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jamietanna[m] Strava << https://twitter.com/MrAndrew/status/1305530276127428609 privacy concerns
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@MrAndrew (1/2) Out running this morning on a new route and a lady runs past me. Despite only passing, when I get home @Strava automatically tags her in my run. If I click on her face it shows her full name, picture and a map of her running route (which effectively shows where she lives) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eh4rq1EWAAAYbGS.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1305530276127428609)
# Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/MrAndrew/status/1305530276127428609 privacy concerns" to the "See Also" section of /Strava https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72646&oldid=70548
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# maxwelljoslyn jamietanna: holy crap
# jamietanna[m] Yup! Realised I didn't share it round you lovely folks and thought it may be worth trying to share a bit wider
# [chrisaldrich] tantek, my thoughts exactly. Some of it's already in there, just not synthesized...
# [chrisaldrich] That small individual case is sketch, but there's also been that sort of problem exposed at the larger aggregate data level. Viz:
# [chrisaldrich] Strava << 2018-01-29 [https://www.wired.com/story/strava-heat-map-military-bases-fitness-trackers-privacy/ The Strava Heat Map and the End of Secrets]
# Loqi ok, I added "2018-01-29 [https://www.wired.com/story/strava-heat-map-military-bases-fitness-trackers-privacy/ The Strava Heat Map and the End of Secrets]" to the "See Also" section of /Strava https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72647&oldid=72646
# [chrisaldrich] There have also been articles about larger corporate data breaches of credit card data, Target purchases, and even hotel database stays as they allow large state actors (China, for example) to potentially track particular people's worldwide movements to identify potential espionage.
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@rafahari I've also pushed a very small update to my website, and its chaotic layout (please, don't look at the code 🙈). That green screen is starting to pay off (@marisamorby 💚). https://twitter.com/rafahari/status/1305526454713810948/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/1305526454713810948)
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# [jgmac1106] said on facebook live...by the spokeperson for Health and Human Services: "When Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,” Caputo said. “If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get.”
# [jgmac1106] if you use facebook you support racism and undermine our democracy. Full stop
# [jgmac1106] Nah I believe things will be better 2021....I just sharing for IndieWeb value and the Social Dilemma discussion
# [jgmac1106] if you want a deep dive into my crazy thinking been posting about it instead of working all day...i need to shut off news...anger detroys productivity
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# petermolnar Not wanting to play the devil's advocate but from the perspective of likes/comments/visitors/gamification, how are we, indieweb, better, than social media? I've been there, watching the stats counters for new visitors; waiting for comments on posts to flow it, etc. I don't think the addiction part is addressed in our stack of thoughts and technology.
# petermolnar I know, but it became relevant again
# petermolnar aaronpk: that's the other way around; there will be people not wanting to show them, and there will be those who want more of them
# [chrisaldrich] Another part of the equation is who/what is using those likes (data) and for what purpose? Sending and receiving those likes on a person to person basis isn't the worst of the harm.
# [chrisaldrich] More of the harm comes from using those to create a profile to create bigger addictions to feeds, deciding what users will see, and potentially exposing them and polarizing them to outside views they would likely never have come to themselves.
# petermolnar one doesn't exclude the other [chrisaldrich]; digital addiction existed long before manipulated feeds. Have you never had a period where you curiously checked and re-checked your mailbox for new email?
# [chrisaldrich] they definitely go hand in hand and are probably worse on younger, developing minds in the early teen years as well.
# [chrisaldrich] I generally have notifications completely off and the only thing I curiously check recently is for the status of the nearby fire 2-3 times a day or when I hear continuous helicopter or airplane activity over the neighborhood.
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# [tantek] social media << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problematic_social_media_use
# Loqi ok, I added "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problematic_social_media_use" to the "See Also" section of /social_media https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72648&oldid=71004
# [chrisaldrich] to me digital addiction is an individual harm while the algorithmic polarization is a broader and far more harmful societal disease. Some physical media (newspapers, magazines, television, and film) were able to create polarization, but not at the scale of social media over the past decade.
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# petermolnar what I'm talking about was waaaay before notifications; it's the gambling thought part: going there and re-checking, to see if you get something new.
# petermolnar [tantek]: I thought that terms was the pirated sf for blackberry.
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# [jgmac1106] that isn't just notifications I find myself doing that with just news sites as well (like today)
# [jgmac1106] its just human...being on a platform, like your website where someone isn't profiting reduces that risk in my opnion
# [jgmac1106] it is also a number of attention vectors...when all reading and writing gets pushed through only a few channels than human nature to addiction easier to manipulate and use for evil. the facebook business model
# [jgmac1106] not too mention the friction of holistic tech...by its nature will always take more steps to "like" something the more holistic a platform is for people, again my opinion
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# [chrisaldrich] someone was listening... the house just got buzzed by a low flying DC-10 and another super scooper in the past 3 minutes
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