#indieweb 2021-04-30

2021-04-30 UTC
BrittSSLLC, KempfCreative, minoru_shiraeesh, schmudde, KartikPrabhu, [chrisaldrich], Ruxton and alex11 joined the channel
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doosboox I had a mailing list at yahoo once, but to be quite frank yahoo hasn't really existed in my mind for at least a decade. I don't even know what they have left
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doosboox does *anyone* use yahoo as a search engine?
sivoais, doosboox, KartikPrabhu, markopasha, minoru_shiraeesh, zazazoom, Sukmadik[m] and [grantcodes] joined the channel; ShadowKyogre left the channel
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jamietanna[m] Not personally, but my site receives traffic every so often from there
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doosboox my site has started ranking on top when searching for my name on DuckDuckGo, but on Google my titles on DriveThruRPG, lulu.com, old collaborations, and reviews of my stuff on popular blogs still rank higher
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doosboox I don't know which I think is best :D
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[KevinMarks] so #socialmediaboycott is trending on twitter in the UK
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petermolnar what's the best phrase for that, kafkaesque?
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jeremycherfas Kafkaesque is good. Simple ironic works too.
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[KevinMarks] I'm going to try it - not using twitter from 3pm until Monday midnight. Indieweb still allowed
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[KevinMarks] not sure if POSSE is allowed
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[grantcodes] I think that social media boycott is mostly down to football no? Well more the racist abuse on social media towards players I suppose.
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petermolnar [KevinMarks]: that's more digital detox
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[chrisaldrich] After the recent brouhaha at Basecamp (context: https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp), an example of someone using their own domain because they didn't want the bad press of a silo/platform to stick to them https://www.collindonnell.com/2021/04/28/owning-my-soapbox.html
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jacky o/
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://matienzo.org/2021/120/wmbump/
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sparseMatrix hello
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sparseMatrix I have a piece of work, in pretty much functional condition, which provides for the local composition of a blog or site using markdown text.
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sparseMatrix it's written in python3, flask, and markdown2
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sparseMatrix I'd like to more or less provide it to the indieweb effort, how would I go about that?
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aaronpk hello! do you use it on your own website?
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sparseMatrix The easy web connection is github pages, but it can also export html locally
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sparseMatrix I have built a site with it, which I intend to use
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sparseMatrix https://jamesstallings.github.io
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aaronpk if you're running your own personal website with it then you can add yourself as an example here https://indieweb.org/projects or even just make a wiki page for yourself describing the tools you use to publish to your website, see: https://indieweb.org/wikifying
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sparseMatrix Cool, thanks :D
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sparseMatrix exactly what I needed /|\
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sparseMatrix Ok, some brief aadministrivia... do I need to have an account on the wiki? if so, what's the procedure for getting approved?
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aaronpk there's no approval, you log in with your website
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jacky https://indieweb.org/wikifying#How_to_Join_the_IndieWeb_Wiki
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sparseMatrix Thanks :D
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sparseMatrix how can I test my website/domain login (it's the github flavor)
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sparseMatrix ?
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jacky you mean testing if log-in works? you can directly do that via the Wiki :)
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sparseMatrix yeah it failed, aparently I am not apermitted to use jamesstallings.github.io
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sparseMatrix I did add the rel="me" link
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aaronpk ah yeah the wiki has a rule that only actual domains are allowed, not subdomains of github.io
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sparseMatrix that feels a bit like a barrier to entry
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sparseMatrix so what if I set up auth by hcard? is that a method completely independent of my domain name?
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jjuran I think the idea is to own your domain
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aaronpk right, the idea is to have your own domain. a github subdomain isn't really yours
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sparseMatrix I've owned a good many, and run a few dns servers, but I have no real need at present that justifies the expense
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aaronpk that's kind of the whole point of the indieweb :)
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sparseMatrix so what about indiedns+indiedomainnameregistrar
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sparseMatrix because you don't own that domain name beyond your ability to pay for it ;)
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sparseMatrix I mean, I dont even have to pay for github.io subdomain, that's kind the point there
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sparseMatrix I no longer own e.g., simhost.com nor middleware.systems for just that reason
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sparseMatrix I'm not trying to be snarky about the dns/registrar, it's a straight question
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sparseMatrix you're basically telling me that the whole notion of indieweb (divorcing ones self from centralized silos) is dependent on participating in the ultimate centralized silo - the domain-name system and play to pay registrars
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aaronpk what is DNS?
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Loqi DNS is an abbreviation for Domain Name Server and often used to refer to the configuring thereof on a domain name registrar https://indieweb.org/DNS
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sparseMatrix is off to read some more
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aaronpk short answer: yes. that is the line we chose to draw to be able to both get out of worse centralized silos while also not waiting for other technical solutions that solve the more fundamental design issues with DNS
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sparseMatrix It's at least a straight answer, and I appreciate that.
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sparseMatrix I also appreciate that is a particularly hard question.
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sparseMatrix It does put me in a tight position vis-a-vis contributions I hope to make, because I'm in no position to undertake a new domain at present
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sparseMatrix One of my questions may have been lost in the noise. Simply put, do any of the other authentication methods offer potential relief from this concern?
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aaronpk no, it all starts with your own website
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aaronpk or to quote squarespace: "A better web starts with your website"
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sparseMatrix it just seems appreciably ironic, you know... it's further bad in that you have two classes of users as a result, and one is decidedly disadvantaged
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sparseMatrix I mean, I can probably scrape up 5$ to go to name.com, and I probably will
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sparseMatrix but that is certainly not true for everyone
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[tantek] sorta? the other option is to make a request here in chat for someone to add something to a specific wiki page
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[tantek] similar to have projects typically on GitHub require a reviewer or someone else to actually merge any particular (pull) request
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sparseMatrix do you really want to add content to the wiki to track my identity and the project(s) on which I'll be working?
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[tantek] except in this case, it's actually *easier* that typical GitHub projects to "join" the project, because you can do so by getting your own domain name instead of having a GitHub project admin "bless" you
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[tantek] it's a review step, like nearly any GitHub project
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sparseMatrix I mean, I don't think I would expect you to do so, even if you said you would
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[tantek] such requests are reasonable as a baseline (as evidenced by default GitHub participation culture)
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sparseMatrix do you mean the wiki edits would be reviewed, or?
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[tantek] consider any particular wiki edit to be like a pull request. the analogy fits.
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sparseMatrix sure, but do you good folks have a workflow in place for that?
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[tantek] except in this case, there are literally 100s (maybe 1000s?) of reviewers that could look at the request and "commit" the change
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[tantek] if by workflow you mean custom UI then no, however, a one line request in chat, clearly stating the content and the place to add it (link), would be reasonable.
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[tantek] then if someone (anyone!) in chat that sees it deems it relevant/useful they can "commit" it accordingly. otherwise it's like any other GitHub pull request that may or may not get attention
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sparseMatrix Ok, that sounds really... dependent... but it might work, at least until I can get a domain set up
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sparseMatrix next question, do I also have to own the IP? or am I going to have to go the price of a VPS? if I don't have to support rdns I can use something local
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sparseMatrix a raspi or something
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[tantek] yes it is dependent, about as much as default GitHub contributions are
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petermolnar talking about domain names... would indieauth work with a .onion?
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sparseMatrix I've worked that way before, it's not my favorite
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aaronpk I don't even know what rdns is 😂
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[tantek] if by IP you mean intellectual property then yes, or from a CC0 / public domain compatible source
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aaronpk don't overthink it
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sparseMatrix reverse dns
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sparseMatrix lookup domain/host by IP, instead of IP by host/domain
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petermolnar sparseMatrix: no, you don't have to "own" the IP, and reverse DNS doesn't really matter on the web
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sparseMatrix some service providers require it - a lot of smtp relays used to
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petermolnar for smtp, it does (and for Kerberos, but that's WAAAAY offtopic); for indieweb, it does not, but this is quickly becoming an #indieweb-dev topic
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sparseMatrix in any case, that's awesome ;)
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sparseMatrix sorry guys just trying to get a recipe to provisioning together
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sparseMatrix I think I about have it
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sparseMatrix empties the paypal account
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sparseMatrix yes I am looking for a job, heh.
Nuve4, rsheftel1, [schmarty], [tw2113_Slack_], tomlarkworthy and [snarfed] joined the channel
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[snarfed] sparseMatrix et al, re domains and DNS, another point is that you can still participate in all parts of IndieWeb with a third level domain, like your jamesstallings.github.io, if cost is a blocker
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[snarfed] we obviously encourage second (ie pay) level domains for the obvious reasons, and we accept the tradeoffs that you and aaronpk mentioned, but it’s not a strict req’t baked into any protocols or anything else
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[snarfed] we even have data on it. in the 2017 survey of 2300 indieweb sites, roughly half were second level domains, half third level: https://indiemap.org/graphs/domain_segments.png
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[snarfed] (from https://indiemap.org/docs.html#graph-sites )
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[tantek] snarfed, do we actually have real world examples of such github.io domains that "participate in all parts of IndieWeb"? otherwise it feels a bit tenuous (theoretical) to claim "can"
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[tantek] also "all parts of" is pretty strong claim
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[snarfed] i didn’t mean to special case github.io, i’m not too familiar with it, but we definitely have those examples on eg micro.blog, wordpress.com, tumblr, blogger, etc
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[tantek] which is different from "shows up in IndieMap" (some parts of)
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[snarfed] sure
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[tantek] trying to be careful about setting expectations here
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[snarfed] i’d focus on indieweb friendly hosts like micro.blog and a couple others created by community members here that use third level domains. pine…something? and at least one other
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[tantek] !tell KartikPrabhu is your site down?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jamietanna maybe pine.blog ?
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[snarfed] yes! thanks
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[tantek] what is pine
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pine" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "pine is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[snarfed] also glitch, app engine, netlify, other web hosts for developers with free tiers that include third level domains
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[tantek] that seems like a useful list for somewhere on the wiki though idk where I'd put it or look for it!
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[snarfed] it’d go in https://indieweb.org/web_hosting
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[tantek] !tell KartikPrabhu i.e. your name .com is not responding as of 2021-04-30 and examples are being moved accordingly to past examples e.g. https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=note&action=historysubmit&diff=75384&oldid=70264
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[snarfed] tantek: https://www.kartikprabhu.com/ works. looks like he just doesn’t serve on naked domain
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[snarfed] another community host was was called icanhaz…web site…something…
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[tantek] Hmm pretty sure the non-www links used to work.
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[tantek] Maybe a confirmation change? At least there ought to be a redirect
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[tantek] configuration* change
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[tantek] snarfed, yup, he used to serve without the "www." per https://gregorlove.com/2015/11/webmention-with-vouch-check-three/ which shows up now on https://www.kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] Webmention with vouch. Check three, check four.
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[tantek] !tell KartikPrabhu looks like you moved your site to the "www." subdomain of your domain, and broke all the links to your site, e.g. https://gregorlove.com/2015/11/webmention-with-vouch-check-three/ clearly linked to your plain domain at time of publication, and still shows up as a comment on https://www.kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] Webmention with vouch. Check three, check four.
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sparseMatrix @tantek @snarfed I picked up a super cheap 2nd level domain at name.com for a year. It aint pretty, but it's already hooked up to a pi4 in the garage
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sparseMatrix that said, I fell like this is still a matter of concern
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sparseMatrix I'm off to create an hcard and have lighttpd serve it along with some rel="me" links and whatnot
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[chrisaldrich] n.b. One could always make wiki edits via Loqi...
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[tantek] hey [chrisaldrich] while you're here, could you take a look at https://indieweb.org/scratch_your_own_itch#Cook_What_You_Want ?
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sparseMatrix ? anyways, I set up a page to serve an hcard plus rel me links but now I'm getting an nginx bad gateway error trying to log in...
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[chrisaldrich] sparseMatrix, given some of the technicalities of that, you might try moving to the #indieweb-dev channel to troubleshoot. 🙂
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sparseMatrix my hcard page is kinda rough, a complete hcard example would be awesome xD
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[tantek] paging Zegnat 🙂
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sparseMatrix you can see it at http://www.code4peeps.life/hcard-plus.html
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sparseMatrix rofl can ya tell I ran out and bought that url in a hurry
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sparseMatrix errr4r, domain
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Loqi James Stallings
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sparseMatrix oi
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sparseMatrix Loqi
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[tantek] that's a good sign, means Loqi was able to read it and parse your name from it!
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[tantek] you may also want to try out indiewebify.me
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sparseMatrix excellent
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sparseMatrix Hey I'm not quite finished there, but it's really helpful
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sparseMatrix Ok I think I got the full h-card example dubbed lol
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sparseMatrix I'm quite intrigued by the h-entry spec
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Loqi sparseMatrix: we try to keep jargon out of this channel to make it more inviting to newcomers, can you move this to #indieweb-dev?
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sparseMatrix or should I say 'spec' - this stuff feels rather fresh
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sparseMatrix certainly