#indieweb 2021-06-11

2021-06-11 UTC
[fluffy] and [tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek] Happy Birthday GWG!
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[tantek] as much as we're about publishing your info on your own site which you control, do we also have pages or how-to's about unpublishing your info from elsewhere on the web? i.e. https://www.theverge.com/22509928/internet-security-privacy-personal-data
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[tantek] see also: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/technology/google-algorithm-known-victims.html
[jacky], [schmarty], KartikPrabhu, hE_01, gRegorLove_, capjamesg, calebjasik, nekr0z, batkin[m], Abhas[m], reed, LaBcasse[m] and astralbijection[ joined the channel
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petermolnar what is delete?
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Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indieweb.org/delete
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petermolnar tracking your content over the internet is near impossible, especially with photos. Once it gets dragged into pinterest, it's gone; people will assume pinterest as the source. Even if you wanted to take them down, it's basically over.
oodani, hendursa1, KartikPrabhu, [grantcodes], [Murray] and IWSlackGateway3 joined the channel
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[Murray] from tweet in meta: https://hashnode.com/
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[Murray] don't know much about it, but looks interesting
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[Murray] anyone using it?
gRegor and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/oregano_blog/status/1403265958475599872?s=20
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@oregano_blog Hello (again), world! Welcome to Oregano, a Glitch app that helps you get a new blog up and running in minutes: https://oregano-blog.glitch.me (twitter.com/_/status/1403265958475599872)
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[jacky] yeah tbh it's kind of telling that Google is taking an Apple-esque view and saying that they can yank it from the Web (but the Web and Google's index are probably interchangable internally)
neceve, [tw2113_Slack_], [pfefferle], alex_, BinyaminGreen[m] and [tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek] yeah that's close enough
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[tantek] deleted << Related, deleting your info elsewhere: https://www.theverge.com/22509928/internet-security-privacy-personal-data
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Loqi ok, I added "Related, deleting your info elsewhere: https://www.theverge.com/22509928/internet-security-privacy-personal-data" to the "See Also" section of /deleted https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=76065&oldid=70453
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[tantek] deleted << Related, deleting your stuff from Google’s index: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/technology/google-algorithm-known-victims.html
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Loqi ok, I added "Related, deleting your stuff from Google’s index: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/technology/google-algorithm-known-victims.html" to the "See Also" section of /deleted https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=76066&oldid=76065
gRegor, Moosadee, [pfefferle]1, alex__, aaronpk_, michael, mikeputnam1 and HelpMeUnderstand joined the channel
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HelpMeUnderstand test
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HelpMeUnderstand can anyone read this?
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HelpMeUnderstand it says "connecting... connecting to the chat room..." but i seem to be able to talk in the chatroom?
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[tw2113_Slack_] I’m seeing you HelpMeUnderstand
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HelpMeUnderstand SWEET haha
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HelpMeUnderstand i have a few questions about this whole movement and more specifically micro.blog, do you have a few mins to help me understand plz?
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[snarfed] Sure!
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HelpMeUnderstand ok, ty, here i go
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HelpMeUnderstand if one will become 0.00001% more famous than they currently are and are looking for some sort of online presence... the most likely path these days would be to create a twitter page, an instagram account, etc
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HelpMeUnderstand but that seems quite ridiculous imo, even IF you are lucky to get the same username on all those social networks, you still have to specify which ones you're actually using
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HelpMeUnderstand if at the end of your very first interview you get asked "where can people find you online?" your reply would be "i'm @FirstLast on twitter, instagram, tiktok, facebook, snapchat, youtube, twitch, ..."
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HelpMeUnderstand vs just being able to say "FirstLast.com"
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[snarfed] sure
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HelpMeUnderstand so i registered FirstLast.com
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HelpMeUnderstand BUT i would like to be able to have people reply to what i post
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HelpMeUnderstand brb, phone
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HelpMeUnderstand ok back
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HelpMeUnderstand so what happens if i sign up for micro.blog
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HelpMeUnderstand can i have my micro.blog/FirstLast page redirect to FirstLast.com?
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HelpMeUnderstand and if i understand things correctly, people who wanna comment on what i post will need to have a micro.blog account as well, right?
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HelpMeUnderstand if so, how is that any different from what disqus offers?
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[snarfed] I don’t think you can make micro.blog redirect like that, but I’m not a micro.blog expert
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[snarfed] as for commenting, micro.blog supports webmentions, so people can choose to comment that way instead, even if they don’t have an account
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HelpMeUnderstand provided both of us would be using a blog hosting platform that supports webmentions?
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[snarfed] right!
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HelpMeUnderstand so to recap
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HelpMeUnderstand i bought FirstLast.com
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HelpMeUnderstand now i need to find a place to host my website, and i choose micro.blog
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HelpMeUnderstand provided i opt for the paid plan, i will get FirstLast.micro.blog
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HelpMeUnderstand people will go to FirstLast.com but behind the scenes FirstLast.micro.blog will be fetched
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HelpMeUnderstand the url in the address bar will still be FirstLast.com though, right?
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[snarfed] I believe so, yes
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HelpMeUnderstand then what is micro.blog/username?
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[snarfed] just another URL for the same thing?
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[snarfed] sadly https://help.micro.blog is down right now
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[pfefferle]1 no, the /username thing is the private/reader thingy
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[snarfed] oh its SSL cert expired
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HelpMeUnderstand it is here that i always get lost, i don't understand what to do now
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[snarfed] pfefferle oh interesting. guess I don’t follow anyone on m.b, so I assumed it was just my profile
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[pfefferle]1 it is, but I can not post on it
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HelpMeUnderstand pfef, do you understand my confusion?
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aaronpk it's your profile but displayed by the micro.blog reader rather than your blog
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HelpMeUnderstand so what does someone who wants to reply to what i post need? only their own FirstLast.com?
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[snarfed] Right, and a web host that supports sending webmentions
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aaronpk or if you also post your content to twitter they can reply on twitter
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[snarfed] hah yes
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[jacky] with a bit more magic ofc
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[pfefferle]1 They can also reply with the free version /username on micro.blog
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HelpMeUnderstand that's the point, i want 1 place that has everything, rather than having to manage 37849569 different social media websites/apps
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[pfefferle]1 The Indieweb is very good at bridging!
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aaronpk you can have either one place with everything that requires more work from people in order to interact with, or you can meet people where they are by syndicating your content to multiple places
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aaronpk what is POSSE?
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Loqi POSSE is an abbreviation for Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere, the practice of posting content on your own site first, then publishing copies or sharing links to third parties (like social media silos) with original post links to provide viewers a path to directly interacting with your content https://indieweb.org/POSSE
reed joined the channel
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HelpMeUnderstand pfef, i see, that makes me wonder... doesn't that pose the risk that most people will just use micro.blog, like how matrix.org is by far the biggest host of all matrix instances?
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aaronpk webmention lets people reply from their own blog
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HelpMeUnderstand yeah i learned what POSSE is and conceptually i like it, but then i would still have to have all those accounts to reply back haha
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aaronpk there are tools that can help smooth that out. for example i haven't used the twitter web interface in years yet i can still reply to people on twitter
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[pfefferle]1 I see no problem when a lot of people use micro.blog
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HelpMeUnderstand maybe i'm wrong, but this seems like the reasoning behind signal choosing not to become federated
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[pfefferle]1 But micro.blog is federated
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Loqi hey HelpMeUnderstand, [pfefferle]1, I don't mean to be a bother, but federated seems like a better conversation for #indieweb-dev
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HelpMeUnderstand i know, and that is great, but we've seen how hard it is to evolve a federated ecosystem with email
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HelpMeUnderstand i also wonder if we can get the masses to start microblogging on decentralized instances if they have to pay
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[pfefferle]1 But isn‘t mail working like expected? I like the idea to have a simple but federated service where people can simply register, but can also talk to the geeks that use their own instances!
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[snarfed] pfefferle++
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Loqi pfefferle has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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aaronpk don't we have a wiki page that describes why "for the masses" is not a good way to think about it?
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HelpMeUnderstand mail does what it needs to do, yes
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[snarfed] One way to think about this is goals. Here, our primary goal is helping people own their identity online. We use/expect domains and data export as the main tools for that, so that you can move your site between hosts and maintain control over it.
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[snarfed] We like self hosting and decentralizing, but we know those are usually more difficult for users, and we care more about owning your identity and presence instead
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[snarfed] Other communities care more about self hosting, or decentralizing, which is great too!
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[pfefferle]1 And the nice thing is, that both is ok and works nicely together!
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HelpMeUnderstand i fully support all those things too
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HelpMeUnderstand and i'll start my own blog via micro.blog at FirstLast.com
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[pfefferle]1 and if that does not work, you can try it with #wordpress ☺
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HelpMeUnderstand but i wonder how many replies i'll be missing out on by getting people to visit my website instead of various social networks
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[pfefferle]1 Have you seen brid.gy?
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[snarfed] Definitely a drawback! Everyone gets to choose for themselves how to navigate that tradeoff
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[snarfed] heh pfefferle++
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HelpMeUnderstand idk what that is, let me look it up
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HelpMeUnderstand ah that looks nice
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[pfefferle]1 It brid.ges communication between the indieweb and silos like Twitter
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HelpMeUnderstand but then i will still have to create an account for each service haha
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[pfefferle]1 For now yes
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[jacky] yeah and if it's something that really burns at your core, bridging it can fix that
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HelpMeUnderstand i don't wanna support these silos
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[jacky] brid.gy's done a lot of work in that regard
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[jacky] but you want the replies from them?
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aaronpk yes, this is what we've been saying, you can choose whether you want to take advantage of the distribution of platforms like twitter, or whether you want to keep things only on your website and miss out on interaction from those platforms
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[pfefferle]1 But maybe Twitter becomes federated one time https://boingboing.net/2019/12/11/slow-knives-vs-protocols.html
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HelpMeUnderstand i'm inclined to think that people who REALLY wanna reply will make a micro.blog account in order to do so, but then they won't be able to start posting themselves (there is a trial though)
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Loqi Twitter wants to develop an open, decentralized, federated social media standard…and then join it
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[snarfed] one brid.gy feature you might like is that it finds and backfeeds posts on silos that link to your site. you don’t have to POSSE to get those silo replies. (you do need the silo account to sign up for bridgy though)
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HelpMeUnderstand yeah i wanna go all-in and not make any silo account
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[jacky] that's not possible
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[jacky] mainly because of the control that silos have
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[jacky] you can try scraping but eventually that'll be flagged and blocked
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[jacky] I shouldn't say it's not impossible
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[jacky] it'll be extremely hard to keep up over time without them noticing it
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HelpMeUnderstand whenever i'm asked where people can find me online i will just grin and say "by going to my website FirstLast.com" XD
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[snarfed] That’s what we do too!
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aaronpk given the number of times firstlast.com is now in this chat log i really hope that is your actual website and not just an example :)
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[jacky] lol
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[jacky] free traffic
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HelpMeUnderstand my real name is obviously not First Last haha, but you know what i mean right? i was able to register my real name's .com
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HelpMeUnderstand that is also a huuuuuuuuge benefit of this movement, you only need to worry about your username ONCE! :)
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HelpMeUnderstand "username" i.e. domain haha
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aaronpk it's always dangerous using random URLs as examples since they might link to something you have no control over or didn't expect. that's the reason example.com is reserved
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[snarfed] …as long as you remember to renew the domain :troll:
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HelpMeUnderstand i have auto-renew enabled
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[snarfed] …and as long as the TLD doesn’t decide they don’t like you, eg https://indieweb.org/top-level_domain#ly
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[snarfed] nothing’s forever, change is the only constant, etc 🤷‍♂️
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HelpMeUnderstand 1 last thing... will it be possible to "follow" fellow indieweb bloggers? or will that continue to require an rss reader?
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HelpMeUnderstand yeah true, but i went with .com so that's a bit safer than .ly or .co haha
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[snarfed] true!
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[snarfed] yes, there’s lots of work on readers. some are integrated into people’s own web sites, some into web hosts like micro.blog, some standalone. https://indieweb.org/social_reader
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HelpMeUnderstand ooo this looks lovely!
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HelpMeUnderstand i recognize the name Aaron Parecki LOL
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[pfefferle]1 There are not many sites on the wiki that does not reference Aaron 😉
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HelpMeUnderstand unfortunately i have to go now, but this is exciting stuff, once this movement becomes frictionless twitter etc will all be dead
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[pfefferle]1 Maybe not dead but maybe part of the indieweb ☺
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HelpMeUnderstand i think social media will inevitably kill itself
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HelpMeUnderstand like i said earlier, having to create 837653 accounts to simply share some text/images/videos will be too cumbersome
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HelpMeUnderstand getting people to register 1 domain instead or for the normies have them create 1 micro.blog account will be a lot easier
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HelpMeUnderstand i'll be back later though, cya!
[manton], alex11, barnaby, [tantek], jgee0, [fluffy], [jacky], Moosadee, [schmarty], gRegor, hendursa1, [Ana_Rodrigues], [tw2113_Slack_], hendursaga, jgee6, [aciccarello], jgee, sm2n and wagle joined the channel