#indieweb 2021-12-06
2021-12-06 UTC
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[snarfed] re this tweet from #indieweb-meta, https://twitter.com/flancian/status/1467458679662383105 ...
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@flancian Chatting with [[gyuri lajos]] about [[indiehub]]. Looking great, very exciting -- it's like a [[web native]] complement to the [[indieweb]] (all you need is a browser; it runs as a distributed system). (twitter.com/_/status/1467458679662383105)
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# [snarfed] ...the words are all familiar, but I couldn't parse the tweet, follow the conversation, or understand anything about the web site, https://anagora.org/indiehub
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[schmarty] snarfed: I tried as well! Kinda seemed to me like wiki placeholders about an project named indiehub.
# [schmarty] I checked out the listed mastodon account my and the best I can figure is it's a proposal to try IndieWeb(-style) building blocks on IPFS and other crowdhosted stuff
# [schmarty] Oop. "my and" should just have been "and"
oodani, KartikPrabhu, sayanarijit[d], [snarfed], naaekluue`_numbe, Seirdy, tetov-irc, [fluffy]1, anonymou1, justSleigh, willnorris, [benji], [jeremycherfas], P1000[d], sennomo, grantcodes[d], _inky, [manton], [tantek], jjuran, [jeremyfelt], [jacky], rvalue, balupton[d], [KevinMarks], doosboox, IWSlackGateway, jeremycherfas, aranjedeath, kloenk, chenghiz_, Nuve, gerben, wrmilling, yar, edburns[d], joshproehl, srushe, silberfuchs, raucao, klez, timdream, lahacker[d], lanodan, distopico, sm2n, Bitweasil, benji, BinarySavior, rattroupe[d], daiyi[d], petermolnar, edgeduchess[d], mikeputnam, feoh, bneil, apophys, moose333, sknebel, Dystopia, Ruxton, raghavgururajan, vroman, MarkJR84[d], eco, push-f, nolith2, Abhas[m], samwilson, LaBcasse[m], rrix, Allie, duncanbeevers, stevestreza, jfkimmes[m] and zblesk[m] joined the channel
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[KevinMarks] Indieweb stuff should work if they have a URL format that can be resolved - it did with dat/Beaker. The lack of that is what makes SSB hard to work with
# [KevinMarks] The original WorldWideWeb explicitly embraced multiple URL formats, even though browsers seem to have mostly forgotten that now.
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[jgmac1106] what is the guidance for writing alt text on comics, like in a 2-4 frame meme?
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# [Joe_Crawford] [jgmac1106] I attended (some) of a seminar on the topic “*Adapting Comics for Blind and Low Vision Readers*” — here’s a google doc of the agenda which is the first thing I found when searching my email. https://docs.google.com/document/d/11hIqrMJ75YuLtUXbWf1CoxZstIVTf4k-1AleqXj3DpU/edit - LOTS OF STUFF IN THERE.
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# [Joe_Crawford] Right! I take no credit. I’m a mere comics enthusiast and play at making some and try to stay up with “comics thinking” for lack of a better term.
# [Joe_Crawford] “Adapting Comics for Blind and Low Vision Readers: A Roundtable Discussion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ94byTwat0
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Loqi comics are one of many types of posts that you can publish on your own site, and usually involve one or more comic image frames laid out sequentially, sometimes with characters drawn in each frame speaking to each other https://indieweb.org/comics
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[tantek] comics << Some accessibility tips for publishing comics: 2021-08-12 [https://docs.google.com/document/d/11hIqrMJ75YuLtUXbWf1CoxZstIVTf4k-1AleqXj3DpU/edit Comics A11Y Symposium 2021: Agenda]
# Loqi ok, I added "Some accessibility tips for publishing comics: 2021-08-12 [https://docs.google.com/document/d/11hIqrMJ75YuLtUXbWf1CoxZstIVTf4k-1AleqXj3DpU/edit Comics A11Y Symposium 2021: Agenda]" to the "See Also" section of /comics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78176&oldid=74937
# [Joe_Crawford] Okay, just found the followup email. Posted to my own site. https://artlung.com/blog/2021/12/06/seminar-comics-a11y/
# Loqi capjamesg: [chrisaldrich] left you a message on 2021-09-30 at 6:10am UTC: in case you didn't get a mention from it: https://memex.marginalia.nu/projects/edge/about.gmi re: indie search projects
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# [tantek] comics << 2021-12-06 [https://artlung.com/blog/2021/12/06/seminar-comics-a11y/ Adapting Comics for Blind & Low Vision Readers: Seminar Resources]
# Loqi ok, I added "2021-12-06 [https://artlung.com/blog/2021/12/06/seminar-comics-a11y/ Adapting Comics for Blind & Low Vision Readers: Seminar Resources]" to the "See Also" section of /comics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78177&oldid=78176
# [tantek] comics << 2021-03-21 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ94byTwat0 ▶ Adapting Comics for Blind and Low Vision Readers: A Roundtable Discussion] (YouTube video, 88min)
# Loqi ok, I added "2021-03-21 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ94byTwat0 ▶ Adapting Comics for Blind and Low Vision Readers: A Roundtable Discussion] (YouTube video, 88min)" to the "See Also" section of /comics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78178&oldid=78177
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed, I've been watching some of the material Gyuri is working on and it's IndieWeb adjacent, but he has a word salad soup of jargon that makes it *incredibly* difficult to follow what he's doing. I suspect English is not his first language which adds an additional barrier. I've not directly seen an example of his IndieHub system or what it does, only descriptions. He has been to a few online IWC events in the past and perhaps
# [chrisaldrich] he'd provide a demo of it one day.
# [chrisaldrich] On the other hand, Flancian is doing some amazing work at interconnecting personal wikis and online notebooks. To some extent, one might say that he's building a hub (or you may prefer bridge) to interconnect wikis. If you connect to his system (he's more than happy to help), the Agora (aka anagora.org) will pull in your data and add it to the shared pile of communal data relating to a particular [[wikilink]] so you can quickly see
# [chrisaldrich] what information other members of the network have on those topics.
# [chrisaldrich] The Agora is essentially a wiki of wikis into which you can see the content that cross links one person's wiki to another's. The UI is a bit unwieldy, but if you've got this overview of what it's doing, it's easier to grok. As an example if you and I both had wikis connected to the system, you could visit https://anagora.org/indieweb to see what we both (and others) had written about the topic.
# [chrisaldrich] For context, in ancient Greece an "agora" was a public open space used for assemblies and markets, in this case an open digital marketplace of information.
# [chrisaldrich] It's primarily text and [[wikilink]] based rather than using the IndieWeb's permalink or tags as a basis. I know that he's been able to pull in doubleloop's WordPress-based digital garden into the system for example. Most of the other users in that network have text (or .md) files from Logseq, Obsidian, etc. which are synced to public Github sources to power the system.
# [chrisaldrich] Perhaps he can overcome the text/URL barrier and improve the UI for people just coming into the system?
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# [chrisaldrich] From an IndieWeb perspective, it would be nice if I could, for example, write updates on my own wiki/website about an IndieWeb topic, and have those automatically appear on the IndieWeb's wiki. In the Agora's case it's doing this but it doesn't have a top-level topic the way the IndieWeb wiki does. It's organized only around the people that choose to be a part of it. I'm not sure how far this may (easily) scale but for small
# [chrisaldrich] networks of interconnected people it would be a useful search/discovery tool.
# [chrisaldrich] In any case, it's an example of interconnected and interoperable softwares that exists in the world and is very IndieWeb in principle.
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capjamesg[d] There is a page on the wiki about syndicating to the wiki.
# capjamesg[d] I can’t remember what it is called though.
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# sknebel[m] test, please ignore
# [chrisaldrich] I think Angelo has built something to POSSE to the wiki, but he's the only one?
# [chrisaldrich] I've got something that will let me do PESOS from the wiki to my site, but most of it is saved privately on my back end as I haven't figured out a great way of doing display.
# capjamesg[d] Display is a bit of an issue.
# capjamesg[d] I’d also look for a clear version indicator so I know that what is on your site may no longer reflect the living wiki page.
# capjamesg[d] (Not a full history, just a clear time stamp, etc.)
# capjamesg[d] That is true. Kaja++
# [chrisaldrich] Flancian has both a twitter bot https://twitter.com/an_agora and a Mastodon bot (I can't recall the account) which will allow one to tweet data into the Agora via syndication. It also responds with links to Agora pages that are mentioned in tweets using wikilinks (if you're following it).
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# [chrisaldrich] the Mastodon bot is at @agora@botsin.space
# zblesk[m] I've read the convo of the past few days and darn, that Loqi bot is nice.
# zblesk[m] Is there some list of what it can do?
# [KevinMarks] “it would be nice if I could, for example, write updates on my own wiki/website about an IndieWeb topic, and have those automatically appear on the IndieWeb's wiki.” this sounds like the exact webmention use case
# capjamesg[d] zblesk[m] there is!
# capjamesg[d] What is Loqi?
# Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot/digital therapist present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/Loqi
# capjamesg[d] Check out that wiki page ^
# [chrisaldrich] [KevinMarks] I did have a conversation with Flancian about having him add that sort of notification support to the Agora. (I was purposely trying to keep my explanation under Loqi's jargon radar, which is also a useful way of trying to make one's explanation a bit clearer.)
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doubleloop[m] (Just a note that I actually POSSE my digital garden to anagora from org/emacs via a markdown exporter - https://gitlab.com/ngm/ox-agora/)
# [chrisaldrich] [pfefferle] has a WordPress plugin that automatically transforms #hashtag formatted words into WordPress tags. I've been tempted to try to modify it so that it does the same thing for words in [[wikilinks]]. As the functionality across platforms is roughly equivalent, it would be nice if there were standards around these behaviors.
# doubleloop[m] I have some notes I've taken on interlinking wikis here - https://commonplace.doubleloop.net/interlinking-wikis
# [chrisaldrich] This might also make it easier to have a user interface that I could, for example, right click and choose what resource I might want such a link to resolve to. So a word like IndieWeb could be resolved to the original link or to that word's resource on Wikipedia, the IndieWeb wiki, my own website's categories/tags archive, the Twitter or Mastodon hashtag search page, the Anagora page, a Google search, capjamesg[d]'s search engine,
# [chrisaldrich] etc.
# doubleloop[m] Currently I like anagora (in my mind, primarily a digital garden/wiki aggregator) because it gives me a way to get a quick subjective view on a topic from people I already know, in one space collected together. I like to get that first before a wikipedia attempted objective view.
# [chrisaldrich] thanks doubleloop[m], I like your hovercards. Looks like your system is evolving well.
# [KevinMarks] The essay is broader than the title
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# [chrisaldrich] doubleloop[m], I like that your page has a backlink to it's place in the Agora. (How are you doing that? Automatically written with the page, or is it added after the Agora picks it up?)
# [tantek] genuine question (feel free to also answer if you have an idea [chrisaldrich]) because Wikipedia seems to consider "interlink" as a common noun to be a synonym for "hyperlink" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlink
# [chrisaldrich] I think that the definition for interlinking is expanding based on actual use cases. Historically Tim Berners Lee tried to create hyperlinks as bi-directional and then scrapped the idea as not easily implementable. As a result we've all come to expect that links are uni-directional.
# [chrisaldrich] In the digital gardens, wiki spaces and now, even with Webmention, there's an expectation (I would suggest) by a growing number of people that some links in practice will be bi-directional.
# [chrisaldrich] If Neil puts a link to something within his own wiki/digital garden, he's expecting that to be picked up in a space like the Agora and it will interlink his content with that of others.
# [chrisaldrich] Many who are practicing POSSE/PESOS are programatically (or manually) placing backlinks between their content and the copies that live on silos creating a round trip set of links that typically hasn't been seen on the web historically.
# [chrisaldrich] Because we've mostly grown up with a grammar of single directional links and no expectation of visible reverse links (except perhaps in the spammy framing of SEO linkfarms), the word "interlink" has taken on the connotation seen in Wikipedia. I think that definition is starting to change.
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# [chrisaldrich] Among a class of users in the note taking/personal knowledge management space (Roam Research, Obsidian, Logseq, TiddlyWiki, et al) most users are expecting tools to automatically interlink (in my definition with the sense of an expected bi-directional link) pages. Further, they're expecting that if you change the word(s) that appear within a [[wikilink]] that it will globally change all instances of that word/phrase that are so
# [chrisaldrich] linked within one's system.
# [chrisaldrich] In many of those systems you can also do a manual /redirect the way we do on the IndieWeb wiki, but they expect the system to actively rename their bi-directional links without any additional manual work.
# [chrisaldrich] By analogy, many in the general public have a general sense of what /syndication is within social media, but you (Tantek) and others in the IndieWeb space have created words/phrases/acronyms that specify a "target" and "source" to indicate in which direction the syndication is being done and between sites of differing ownership (POSSE, PESOS, PASTA, PESETAS, POOSNOW,... not to mention a linear philosophical value proposition of
# [chrisaldrich] which are more valuable to the end user). There is a group of people who are re-claiming a definition of the words "interlink" and perhaps "backlink" to a more logical position based on new capabilities in technology. Perhaps it may be better if they created neologisms for these, but linguistically that isn't the path being taken as there are words that would seem to have an expandable meaning for what they want. I'd classify it as
# [chrisaldrich] a semantic change/shift/drift in the words meanings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change
# [chrisaldrich] I suspect that if Roam Research, or any of the other apps that have this bi-directionality built in, were to remove it as a feature, they'd loose all of their userbase.
# [chrisaldrich] I'm expecting that sometime within the next year or so that major corporate apps like Evernote and OneNote will make this bi-directional linking a default as well.
# [chrisaldrich] I can only imagine what a dramatically different version of the web we'd be living in if the idea of Webmention had existed in the early 90s. Particularly as there's the ability to notify the other end in changes/updates/deletions of a page. Would the word "linkrot" exist in that world?
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# [Joe_Crawford] Or in a world with Xanaduian transclusions, for that matter.
# [Joe_Crawford] Alas
# [chrisaldrich] Related to this and going into the world of the history of information is the suggestion by Markus Krajewski in "Paper Machines: About Cards & Catalogs, 1548-1929" that early card catalog and index card systems are really an early paper/manual form of a Turing Machine: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/paper-machines. One might imagine the extended analogy libraries : books : index cards :: Internet: websites : links with different
# [chrisaldrich] modes and speeds of transmission.
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# [chrisaldrich] wants that, especially if I can create a list of sites (maybe those I'm following in my reader) to prioritize at the top.
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# [KevinMarks] It's a power law problem, yes. http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/02/technorati-xanadu-and-other-dreams.html
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