#indieweb 2022-11-21

2022-11-21 UTC
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aaronpk my article on the godaddy blog is apparently gone. good thing i posted it to my own site too
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aaronpk weird if you search for it it still shows up, but clicking it redirects to a generic page https://www.godaddy.com/garage/?s=indieweb
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aaronpk i'm realizing now how well set up I am for this new world. I haven't had to switch identities, learn new interfaces or software, I can just talk to everyone on every platform all from my website
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aaronpk i just replied to my coworker with this, which made me realize this: https://aaronparecki.com/2022/11/20/25/
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GWG aaronpk: I think we're all catching up
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[snarfed] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (110 in all channels)
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gRegor Catching up to aaronpk? Always :)
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GWG Well, I saw his profile page /aaronpk, and I thought maybe I want to do something like that
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gRegor I'm interested in how to do the follow form there
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aaronpk i read about it somewhere... wonder if i can remember
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aaronpk probably a dead end though since mastodon removed it from 4.0
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aaronpk Now I want to show percentage of responses on Twitter vs off twitter on my posts
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[tantek] despite the concerns about random Mastodon replies being rude/mean (per #indieweb-meta discussion), I actually feel *less* risk about showing Mastodon responses via Webmention from Bridgy Fed, than Twitter responses via Webmention from Bridgy Backfeed.
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[tantek] aaronpk, I may take a different route, of *only* showing non-Twitter responses as a short-term shortcut to dealing with the Twitter responses moderation problem
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[tantek] (I've already gotten enough unhelpful/rude/off-topic responses on Twitter to posts that it's more than I want to deal with manually moderating)
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[tantek] anybody else seeing "This instance is under maintenance" messages when trying to view Mastodon post permalinks?
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[manton] That’s a big deal.
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[tw2113_Slack_] interesting
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[fluffy] I hope they’re still looking into IndieWeb as well, although I suspect they decided that was too hard or unpopular.
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[fluffy] but if they do all the legwork to support ActivityPub it probably becomes a lot easier for them to support IndieWeb too
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[manton] ActivityPub is way harder than IndieWeb. 🙂 Curious how long it will take Tumblr. Matt also said they were going to rebuild the Tumblr backend on WordPress but that is definitely a years-long project if it’s still on the table.
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Loqi friendly reminder [fluffy], [manton], would you mind moving this conversation (ActivityPub, backend) to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
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aaronpk i was wondering what you all were talking about, but apparently images from the slack gateway get eaten and even the text doesn't come through anymore
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[manton] As a community, would be nice for us to have a kind of “fediverse + IndieWeb” guide to point folks in the right direction so that the future is not 100% ActivityPub without any of the other web building blocks.
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aaronpk so for context: https://twitter.com/photomatt/status/1594587024245260289
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@photomatt @jdp23 @addyosmani We are mostly dealing with the waves of new users right now and keeping everything scaling but interop and activitypub are ASAP. (twitter.com/_/status/1594587024245260289)
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[aciccarello] manton++
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Loqi manton has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (33 in all channels)
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[aciccarello] I'm actually impressed with how clean the /fediverse page is but it could be more useful in explaining
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Seirdy thing is, indieweb and fedi aren't exactly filling the same use-case on paper. fedi is optimized for integrating multiple moderated communities, while the indieweb is optimized for networking multiple individuals.
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Seirdy so any sort of "indieweb + fediverse" guide should probably address that
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Seirdy whether for users or developers
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barnaby to a certain extent, sure, although projects like micro.blog and microblog.pub demonstrate that both approaches can be and are used for both
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sknebel I'm not sure I'd frame it as "optimized for"
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sknebel although I guess one can read some design choices that way, true
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Seirdy barnaby: sure you can use AP for individual-style networking but the fediverse is more than just activitypub
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Seirdy most servers use AP in a very specific mastodon-like way
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Seirdy and add a bunch of non-AP stuff, using mastodon/pleroma/akkoma docs as a specification.
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barnaby sure, because AP isn’t really a spec you can implement and get working interop from
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Loqi hey Seirdy, barnaby, I don't mean to be a bother, but ActivityPub, implement, spec seems like a better conversation for #indieweb-dev
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Seirdy k moving the convo there
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Seirdy (not sure i should've moved the convo there bc i pivoted to saying "the differences are social more than technical" lmao)
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barnaby xD
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Seirdy like all the technical decisions basically stem from their different community models.
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Seirdy ok moving the convo back from -dev to here bc the rest isn't technical
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Seirdy ...and the convo continues on -dev, i guess
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[tantek] Seirdy, I can state that factually the different technical decisions in the Social Web WG (that produced Activity Pub) did *not* primarily come from different community models. I think you're mistaking an effect for a cause.
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[snarfed] hah [fluffy] I saw https://fluffychat.im/ in referrers just now and initially thought it was you
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[snarfed] probably happens often with your username
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AramZ-S[m] Hah that's me. It's a nice web ui
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[fluffy] sigh
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[fluffy] Incidentally I just tried out Hive, here’s my initial impressions: https://plush.city/@fluffy/109383356209062686
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sknebel the funny thing is I've only heard about it from people that are sceptical but note lots of other people are using/trying it
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sknebel but not noticed anyone from the latter group
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AramZ-S[m] I've never even heard of Hive. What is it supposed to be exactly?
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[fluffy] meanwhile I’m getting a lot of reply guys replying to random posts in the thread assuming I’m talking about Mastodon and that I’m as new to Mastodon as they are, which is… fun
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sknebel lol
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[fluffy] https://hivesocial.app/
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> This weekend we have an IndieWeb pop up on the calendar: https://events.indieweb.org/2022/11/indiewebcamp-popup-how-to-make-the-indieweb-more-approachable-cj3LAW8IE9p5
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[timothy_chambe] ↩️ I assume a closed source, non-federating platform? Another commercial silo?
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[tantek] [fluffy] I'm already skeptical from the home page text, e.g. "No shadow banning" raises a red flag for me, in that that technique is one of many for mitigating bad actors.
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[fluffy] yeah
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[fluffy] I mean there’s a lot of… bad to see
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[fluffy] ↩️ [timothy_chambe] yes. (also btw we don’t use slack threads here since they don’t work correctly on the other indieweb chat connection methods)
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[tantek] oh gosh, the clumping of astrology & pronouns?!? I can't even 😕 "Be proud /Share your zodiac sign and pronouns on your profile"
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[fluffy] yeah it’s just uh. a lot.
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[tantek] wait so this is not OSS then
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[tantek] anyone know the actual answer to what happens to your past posts when you migrate Mastodon instances? E.g. https://twitter.com/FlyingTrilobite/status/1591059382506340354
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@FlyingTrilobite @KMSilverTweets @kejames @docfreeride @IBJIYONGI @KristinHenry Oh and when you do it, it seems you do lose past posts? At least I haven’t been super-active since signing up in 2017. https://edtechfactotum.com/migrating-to-a-new-mastodon-home/ (twitter.com/_/status/1591059382506340354)
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sknebel migrating doesnt do anything with posts
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[snarfed] right. from the migrate UI: "No other data will be moved automatically" [besides profile and followers] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/#move
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sknebel the migration feature is basically posting "follow me now at $newaccount", except that the instances of your followers do that update automatically for them
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[KevinMarks] you can't import posts (you can export them as AP JSON)
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[tantek] except that you're still depending on the old instance to server your post permalinks?!?
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[tantek] serve* your
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[tantek] uh that seems like a pretty big migration limitation
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[KevinMarks] I assume because importing post history would then spam every follower with them again, like the backfill problem some people here have seen
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[KevinMarks] you have to manually export and import your follows, blocks etc via CSV
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] wasn't there an RSS-term for this? RSS amnesia?
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Loqi [KevinMarks] [tantek]: we try to keep dev talk (JSON, RSS) out of this channel, can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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[tantek] lol oops
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aaronpk i get the sense that there is very little care about permanence and persistence of data in the fediverse
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aaronpk like, it's okay that the posts don't come along because the conversation is already over at that point
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[jacky] I guess it's more about the identity than the data
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[jacky] but that'd suck
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[tantek] odd, that feels like a very XMPP attitude
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[jacky] IIRC XMPP would move messages as well
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[tantek] rather than a web attitude
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[snarfed] this is one thing I like about bluesky's at protocol, user ownership and migrateability of data is a first class design goal
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[jacky] had that experience with movim.eu and snikket.org for xMPP
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[jacky] [snarfed] agree, but I bet that's Martin's doing; being that he's the data guy
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[tantek] I mean there's this attitude of treating the past as irrelevant
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barnaby the fediverse appears to have an uneasy relationship to being “on the web”, especially when it comes to search, discovery, indexing and permanence
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barnaby I wouldn’t necessarily assume that fedi attiude == web attitude
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[tantek] I'm not sure it's helpful to lump in "the fediverse" as if it represents a single or even common cultural entity. From what I've seen of different instances, there are very different (strong) opinions about what is what, and the breadth of diversity is only growing there
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[jacky] yerp
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aaronpk Yes I think ActivittPub shares a lot of design goals as XMPP
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aaronpk Accidental typo missed Loqi jargon filter 😅
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[jacky] lol
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aaronpk Very much "message passing" vs "put content on the web"
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barnaby indeed
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[KevinMarks] that was the split from the OStatus worldview
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[fluffy] [tantek] past posts stay behind and also any threads that you were in the middle of break in stupid ways
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[tantek] 😞
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[fluffy] there’s no way to continue an existing thread from a new instance in a way that it’ll actually appear for anyone who’d normally see it
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[fluffy] I suspect this is less an activitypub problem and more a “mastodon is a bunch of short-term hacks” problem but it’s still a problem yes
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[KevinMarks] well, it's an AP problem as the key defining the user doesn't migrate, they get a fresh one in the new instance, so you have a break
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[fluffy] I mean I don’t think anyone would be surprised to know that I feel like RSS/Atom+WebSub+Webmention is the far-superior model for *everything* (and I’m sure that’s totally a hot take in these parts)
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Loqi friendly reminder [fluffy], it looks like this conversation is getting pretty technical (ActivityPub, ATOM, RSS, WebSub), can you take it to #indieweb-dev?
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[fluffy] shush
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[tantek] gives Loqi 🔥 for the hot take
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[KevinMarks] I was promoting mastodon as a WebSub pioneer 6 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHunxMTRCJc&t=4566s
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[timothy_chambe] Seeing no objections to this from my previous post, I was going to start promoting it inside Mastodon:
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[timothy_chambe] https://indieweb.social/@thisweekinIndieweb
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[timothy_chambe] It already has 10 followers with literally ZERO promtion.
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[jacky] oh nice
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[jacky] didn't see the prior post on this
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[tantek] [timothy_chambe]++ more for #indieweb-meta but LGTM 🙂 Enhancement request, photos like in the tweets? E.g. https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/1593744621133127681
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Loqi [timothy_chambe] has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-11-18.html https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh4eSTXUUAAJZpS.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1593744621133127681)
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/molly0xFFF/status/1594820638451146770
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@molly0xFFF as sad as i am about the rapid destruction of twitter, the (re)surge in blogs and newsletters has been lovely back to the #indieweb! (twitter.com/_/status/1594820638451146770)
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[tantek] !rt https://twitter.com/molly0xFFF/status/1594820638451146770
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Loqi Thanks! We need one more person to confirm the retweet!
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[KevinMarks] !rt https://twitter.com/molly0xFFF/status/1594820638451146770
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Loqi Thanks [KevinMarks] and [tantek]! https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/1594825455768436737
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[KevinMarks] Mastodon << https://werd.io/2022/moderation-on-mastodon-theres-a-lot-of-work-to-do
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Loqi ok, I added "https://werd.io/2022/moderation-on-mastodon-theres-a-lot-of-work-to-do" to the "See Also" section of /Mastodon https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84558&oldid=84531
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[schmarty] could be cute! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aYuwOPP0Yg