#indieweb 2023-04-16

2023-04-16 UTC
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "I’m not eating my own dog food" https://snarfed.org/2023-04-15_im-not-eating-my-own-dog-food
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[tantek] Lol at the slug
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[snarfed] image? or actually slug?
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[tantek] Actual slug. The stock photo is cute. The article is much deeper than the headline
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[chrisbergr] I dislike the phrase „eat your own dogfiood“ At a former (toxic) employer, this was used so excessively. And I even don‘t like the smell of dogfood. I would never eat it.
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[chrisbergr] The article is great. But from my perspective, you [snarfed] are very active on social media :)
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[tantek] including email lists 🦆
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[tantek] [chrisbergr] pretty sure we have a critical write-up of "eat your own dogfood"
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[tantek] what is eat your own dog food
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "eat your own dog food" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "eat your own dog food is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] eat your own dog food is /dogfood
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] [chrisbergr] most of this whole page: https://indieweb.org/dogfood
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[tantek] feel free to add to the points of criticism e.g. "don‘t like the smell of dogfood" 😂
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[chrisbergr] Yes! I understand the criticism from a cultural point of view. But for me, who deals with real dog food on a daily basis, it is rather disgusting
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[tantek] 😂
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[tantek] Tbh I think that was part of the original point of the metaphor, that you should be using your own code/programs etc even if you feel they are incomplete or "disgusting" because it will motivate you to prioritize improving them
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[KevinMarks] [chrisbergr] http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/the-problem-with-self-dogfooding-was-summed-up-by-shaw-do
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Loqi [preview] [Kevin Marks] The problem with self-dogfooding was summed up by Shaw: “Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may... http://known.kevinmarks.com/file/31162468da6eacefd71fad395438cdb3/thumb.jpg
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I had never made that connection before.
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[tantek] That's the opposite [KevinMarks]
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[tantek] And related to the other half, the making/doing, not the using
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[tantek] "Make what you need/want" still holds up in the face of Shaw's sarcasm
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[tantek] Nowhere in "make what you need/want" does it say or even imply ... "for other people"
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] the point of "eat your own cooking" is to *test* your assumption that you have any clue whatsoever to even determine your *own* tastes, because, the point is, if you don't know or can't figure out your own tastes, you have nearly zero chance of knowing or figuring out others's tastes, not any assumption that others's tastes may be the same as yours.
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[tantek] and presuming you put some deliberate thought into your cooking, i.e. that you "made what you need/want", it's also testing a second assumption, that you have any clue whatsoever to go from a desire to satisfy a particular taste -> to *how* to satisfy a particular taste. i.e. do you actually know how to cook to achieve a particular taste?
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[tantek] maybe a flowchart would help
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[tantek] …any clue whatsoever how* to go from a desire to satisfy a particular taste …
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[KevinMarks] The point is that the raw offal I feed my dogs wouldn't be good for me, and the kind of spiced cooked meat and vegetables that is good for me wouldn't suit them
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[tantek] it's inapplicable because did you actually prepare the raw offal for your dogs or did you buy it? and see what I wrote about 4 above: "…not any assumption that others's tastes may be the same as yours."
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[tantek] the "dogfood" metaphor never meant a literal "go eat dogfood"
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[tantek] interpreting it as such is either daft or deliberate misinterpretation, neither of which is useful
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[tantek] the "dogfood" metaphor expands to "eat your own dogfood" and the key there is "your own dogfood" means that which *you made / prepared*
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[tantek] you're right the metaphor breaks down rather rapidly because there is no relation or "evolving" or "iterating" from "dogfood" to "humanfood", the two are relatively disjoint sets, so it was a poor metaphor in the first place for anything intended for human consumption
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[tantek] like it's hard to believe that anyone *intending* to prepare some food for themselves ("cook what you want") would even accidentally end up preparing "dogfood" by any reasonable measure (despite the fact that dogs will attempt to eat almost any human food)
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[tantek] so yes it's a poor metaphor, but not for the Shaw quote.
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[KevinMarks] I was buying tripe and liver and mincing it myself at one point, though I found a supplier for it frozen now. I don't use the kibble or tinned stuff that has ash and other crap in
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[KevinMarks] There are people who try to feed their dogs vegan food, or prepare them chicken and rice etc. Not a great idea for a carnivore without the right metabolism for plants
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[tantek] right, that's why it was a poor metaphor in the first place. it's impractical / highly failure prone to attempt to go from "human-like food preparation" -> "dog food preparation" also
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[chrisbergr] I can't believe that such a discussion has emerged. Of course, I am aware that it is a metaphor. Maybe it is because I have a different native language and this metaphor does not exist in german (Some young, hip tech people or startups are starting to adopt the phrase in english). This ensures that the sentence gets translated in the back of the brain and both images and disgust arise - at least for me :)
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[tantek] I believe that's one of the existing criticisms — it doesn't translate well across cultures!
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[tantek] so you're not alone [chrisbergr]
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[chrisbergr] I really like https://indieweb.org/eat_what_you_cook instead 🙂
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[tantek] Maybe it's about time to write an opinionated blog post about "time to retire the dog food metaphor" or something similar, so when folks unknowingly use it, e.g. non-native speakers thinking they are using some cool English jargon, you can link them to it to kindly explain why it's not helpful to propagate it despite the origins / intended meaning
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[tantek] Rather than dogfooding, it's time to use the metaphors you want to consume
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Yes.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> 100%
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The context is way broader than the IndieWeb.
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[tantek] Indeed
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[snarfed] Oops, meant to post this here: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2023-04-16#t1681661858297000
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Loqi [preview] [[snarfed]] Bridgy Fed users, I'm looking at prioritizing some smaller fixes. let me know, either here or on GH, if you particularly care about any of these! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22quick+hit%22
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[tantek] Oooh
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[tantek] The chef is asking for menu suggestions 😂
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> 😉
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Wrong emoji.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I meant: 🙂
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[jamietanna] Could be of interest to folks here 👀 https://hachyderm.io/@hola_soy_milk/110197436591760929
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Loqi [preview] [Ramón Martín Huidobro Peltier] Next week on the Bad Website Club, @jessie and I will be hosting our first Website Show & Tell! Send us your websites, be it on Discord or via DM, and we'll fawn live over how great they are and get inspired.See you on Monday! Do the 🔔 thing: http...
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The name isn’t encouraging.
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