#indieweb 2024-11-19

2024-11-19 UTC
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[mattl] Starting a starter pack for IndieWeb people. Let me know if you want on/off the list. https://go.bsky.app/VMobuZd
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[qubyte] Yes please! https://bsky.app/profile/qubyte.codes
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aaronpk sure! https://bsky.app/profile/aaronpk.com
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[tantek] [mattl] can you add my Bridgy profile to it?
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[tantek] aaronpk what's the difference between a direct domain profile like yours vs a BridgyFed scoped profile?
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[tantek] Like this https://bsky.app/profile/tantek.com.web.brid.gy
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gRegor Kevinmarks has a starter pack I think
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gRegor https://bsky.app/starter-pack-short/AEvCkU7
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gRegor [tantek], ease of at-mentioning, I suppose, though autocomplete seems good when I tried it just now.
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gRegor But it still shows up as `@tantek.com.web.brid.gy` in the post
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[tantek] I guess I'd like to know the marginal advantage beyond "shorter @-mention" to better understand if it's worth the marginal cost to setup
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gRegor Not sure. I set up mine before BF supported bsky, so wasn't part of my considerations. I do personally prefer showing up as `@gregorlove.com`
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gRegor The tradeoff being I don't have "easy" auto publishing to bsky, vs when I federate to Mastodon by BF. I still manually post select things to bsky
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gRegor Hm, actually I think Bridgy Publish probably supports bsky, should check into that more. Then I could trigger a bsky post with a webmention
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gRegor (sorry, a bit dev, forgot what channel I'm in :)
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[snarfed] [tantek] afaik aaronpk's Bluesky account doesn't use Bridgy Fed
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[tantek] So he posts there separately? Or built his own Bkuesky POSSE setup?
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[snarfed] I think the latter?
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[snarfed] as for Bluesky handles themselves, one big reason people use their own custom domain is as a (decentralized) way to "verify" that an account is actually them
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[snarfed] anyone can set up an account that impersonates you, but only you can make http://tantek.com your Bluesky handle
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[snarfed] (which you could do! Bridgy Fed supports it now, https://fed.brid.gy/docs#bluesky-enhanced )
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gRegor Ooh, nice!
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[tantek] Presumably only I can setup (implicitly) my bsky BridgyFed handle as well though right?
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[snarfed] yup
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[snarfed] it's all domain verification based, either DNS or HTTPS
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[snarfed] https://bsky.social/about/blog/4-28-2023-domain-handle-tutorial
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[snarfed] (which leans us toward #indieweb-dev)
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[tantek] So that's the delta Iā€™m looking for, what are the advantages beyond cosmetic shorter handles?
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[tantek] Like user level advantages
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[snarfed] oh, because most Bluesky users won't know about Bridgy Fed, so when they see your handle is @tantek.com.web.brid.gy, that still won't necessarily give them assurance that it's really you
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[snarfed] while @tantek.com will
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[snarfed] (but also cosmetics yes)
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[tantek] Ok, reputation / branding / implied trust
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[snarfed] hopefully more explicit trust, at least for people who already know or can look up your domain name
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[snarfed] but yes
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[tantek] OTOH I don't mind my handle being used to help "market" BridgyFed based handles and help build trust in such handles in general
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[tantek] Maybe I should add a rel=me to mine from my home page
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[snarfed] lol, I appreciate it. personally my goal for Bridgy Fed is for it to fade into the background and be invisible plumbing, so I like that people can set their own handles
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[snarfed] but up to yoou!
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[tantek] Does anyone do that already?
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[snarfed] tons of people
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[snarfed] people were very excited about it
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[tantek] Oh I mean the rel=me link from their home page
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[snarfed] oh. probably!
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[snarfed] I do
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aaronpk yeah i have my own POSSE code, but I use bridgy for backfeed from bluesky
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aaronpk so my bluesky account is hosted on their servers
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[snarfed] not really an alternative to the domain handle for trust/verification, rel=me is going to be somewhat less accessible/discoverable, but still good!
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[tantek] The whole "how to setup your personal site on Bluesky" is still under defined / under explained IMO. Like what are the options and reasons / advantages for each
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[snarfed] by "how to setup your personal site on Bluesky," do you mean setting a domain handle, like we've been talking about?
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[tantek] Yes, that's ONE of the options. That's my point
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[snarfed] https://bsky.social/about/blog/3-6-2023-domain-names-as-handles-in-bluesky and https://bsky.social/about/blog/4-28-2023-domain-handle-tutorial discuss why
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[tantek] For me, I'd rather have BridgeFed hosting my account rather than Bluesky hosting it on their servers
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[snarfed] wait. custom domain handle is totally separate from where your account is hosted
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[tantek] So that's enough of an advantage for me to keep using the longer BridgyFed profile link
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[snarfed] it's literally just your handle/username
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[tantek] [snarfed] well that's unclear
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[snarfed] that's it
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[snarfed] pls read the links
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[snarfed] eg as aaronpk ^ said, his Bluesky handle is http://aaronpk.com, but his account is on the main Bluesky server
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[tantek] I have, a while ago
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[snarfed] hrm
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[snarfed] šŸ¤·
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[tantek] They're too long to be useful references
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[tantek] That's my point
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Loqi [preview] Aaron Parecki
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[tantek] This is something people complain about a lot about wiki articles too
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[snarfed] https://bsky.social/about/blog/3-6-2023-domain-names-as-handles-in-bluesky is very short
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[tantek] When I say we need a short "how to" that's what I mean
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[tantek] So I wouldn't call that short much less very short, and that's just *one* option
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[tantek] We should document at least the two options described about with clear real world examples: what aaronpk does, and what I do
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[tantek] And what are the advantages/ disadvantages to each
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[tantek] Right now it took zero work on my part for my option
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[tantek] That's something that is very attractive to most people: zero config
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[tantek] That's a HUGE advantage not to be underestimated
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Loqi I agree
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[snarfed] https://bsky.social/about/blog/3-6-2023-domain-names-as-handles-in-bluesky seems like a short and clear description of the advantages of custom domain handles to me
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[snarfed] and the easiest "how to" is that Bluesky lets you register a new domain name inside the app, and then does all the DNS etc to set it as your handle automatically
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[snarfed] ...but if you want to do it yourself, https://bsky.social/about/blog/4-28-2023-domain-handle-tutorial seems pretty decent to me
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[snarfed] but if you want a different length or format, go for it!
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[tantek] I still don't like that the app makes you create an account
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[tantek] So it still seems like a lot of pfaffing about as the Brits would say
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[snarfed] again, having an account, and where it's hosted, is almost entirely separate from what your handle is
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[snarfed] ...but coming from web sites, I get how that's surprising
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[snarfed] unrelated, oh interesting, does faffing have a leading p? maybe no? not sure
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[snarfed] (ah looks like no šŸ˜)
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[tantek] No I mean if they really meant the your domain is your identity thing then they would use indieauth to let you sign into the app instead of fording you to create yet another user/pass etc
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[tantek] Iā€™m just tired of creating accounts
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[snarfed] heh ok
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[snarfed] fortunately, with BF, you didn't have to
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[tantek] Also installing the app hijacks all Bluesky links and turns them into login wall links
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[tantek] Like you get a WORSE experience by default by only installing the app
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[tantek] All these paper cuts make me not want to faff about with any Bluesky specific setup
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[snarfed] sure! your prerogative
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[tantek] Right so you're seeing my point. With all these downsides, what is the actual marginal advantage of only domain vs domain.bridgyfed handle beyond cosmetic and "trust" until people learn to trust .bridgyfed handles?
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[snarfed] (sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but just to re-confirm, you don't need to create an account or use the app in order to set your handle to http://tantek.com. all you need a single DNS record, or a single file under /.well-known, and then click šŸ” on your BF user page)
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[tantek] No Iā€™m not willing to accept this as a matter of taste/perogative. Iā€™m trying to document actual concrete advantages & disadvantages so anyone can make informed labor/faff costs vs benefits analysis for themselves
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gRegor Yeah, I've never installed the bsky app
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[tantek] Oh! [snarfed] yes that's a great example of a THIRD option (different from what aaronpk does and what I (currently) do)
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[tantek] So this is my meta point. Nowhere do we have these three options succinctly documented like in a summary list
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[snarfed] sure
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[tantek] Gregor which option do you use for your bsky handle?
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gRegor I signed up on the website, then followed https://indieweb.org/Bluesky#How_to_use_your_domain to set my handle to my domain
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[tantek] Signed up on which website? Did you create a bsky account in order to "sign up"?
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[mattl] yep
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[tantek] What is zero account?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "zero account" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "zero account is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[mattl] i was @mattlmattl on there and then moved to my own domain name
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[tantek] This is something we should define as a framing for a desirable feature of services
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[tantek] Just like there's zeroconfig etc
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[tantek] [mattl] right, I want to skip the entire "create yet another account specific to yet another service" problem / labor
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[tantek] Hot take: if a service requires "create an account specific to that service" then it is not an "open web" service.
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gRegor Signed up on https://bsky.app/ Is there another? It might have been bsky.social at the time, I don't remember. It was during the invite-only period.
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[tantek] I should be able to merely "bring my own identity / domain" and that to be good enough for any open web service
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gRegor Yes, I created an account. Zero interest/bandwidth to set up the protocol stuff myself.
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[mattl] hm, i think that's going to annoy a lot of people.
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[tantek] Why [mattl]? Now that there's IndieAuth, any new service has no excuse to demand service-specific account creation
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[mattl] the number of people with a personal domain name who are also going to fiddle with DNS settings is very low
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[tantek] You don't need to fiddle with DNS to setup IndieAuth
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[tantek] Note that I am distinguishing offering sign up with email as an *option* vs requiring it
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[tantek] gRegor I concur with "Zero interest/bandwidth to set up the protocol stuff myself." Hence I prefer the .bridgyfed handle (for now)
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[mattl] I laughed at the part in the AT proto "host it yourself" stuff where it says you need 4.5TB of disk space.
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gRegor The domain option doesn't require ATproto stuff
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Loqi friendly reminder [tantek], gRegor, that's a lot of dev jargon! protocol, ATProto... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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gRegor yeah, saw that coming :D
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[mattl] Yeah, using my own domain name with bluesky stuff just required DNS fiddling.
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[tantek] lol
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[snarfed] [mattl] I expect the 4.5TB number is for running your own relay or appview. you don't need anywhere near that just to run your PDS, ie a server for self-hosting your own account and data, which is what most people want
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[tantek] Is BridgyFed a PDS for person sites that it's bridging to Bluesky?
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Loqi hey [snarfed], [tantek]: that's a lot of dev jargon! PDS... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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[tantek] oops
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[snarfed] [tantek] yes!
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[tantek] ok! that's what I thought! BridgyFed++
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Loqi BridgyFed has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
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[Joe_Crawford] Gotta say an un-hedged statement from Blue Sky CEO about the inherent value of an open web is good. https://bsky.app/profile/jay.bsky.team/post/3lbbnobqknc2s
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[tantek] yes
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[morganm] seems on topic to indieweb, I wanted to say that I quit Instagram a month ago and it's been a whirlwind šŸŒŖļø for my brain. I joined Instagram in 2012 and for the last 4-5 years have used it daily for like more than an hour a day. It got to a point where I stopped interacting with many people outside of the narrow confines of the app which served me ads and terrible algo content. Quitting for a month has felt like breaking chains and rewiring
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[morganm] brain a little and it's been good
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[aciccarello] Congrats morganm! I've been off for a few years and I'm glad I have.
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[aciccarello] I do miss seeing posts from family but both Instagram and Twitter push so many ads and content from people you don't follow that it made their apps unusable for me.
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[aciccarello] Any time I log into facebook for facebook marketplace it reminds me how bad social media has gotten.
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[tantek] [morganm] add your IG quit to the 2024 section! https://indieweb.org/silo-quits#2024
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[morganm] Once I keep up this momentum I'll add something to the wiki about my experiences
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[morganm] People are weird about talking about quitting stuff I've found
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[tantek] All you have to do is add a single heading and summary of what date you quit!
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[tantek] better to blog about your experience, and then link to that blog post from the wiki
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[tantek] (which you can do later. it's a wiki! incremental edits are the way to go!)
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[morganm] So far I have found Everyone's on some kind of journey themselves or thinking about quitting but not yet committed. Usually the conversation quickly turns to "but I use filters or tweak the algo so I like it" even when they said moments earlier they found it bad
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[morganm] It's almost as if social media gets their hooks into your brain and social life and it's hard to unwrestle it
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[mattl] I don't miss Twitter at all now. I was surprised by how quickly I forgot it
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[morganm] I am going to blog about it but basically the first few weeks I had ghostly impulses to check the app or do an action related to the app, such as seeing something I might photograph for a story on IG, and then realizing I can't. Dead ends like this are uncomfortable mentally for me at first it was like that at least
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[morganm] It honestly felt like quitting cigarettes
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[morganm] Which I have also done, in 2014 successfully
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[mattl] Weirdly the one for me is Slashdot. I often find myself opening a tab and typing "Sla"
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[tantek] heh. the Slashdot one I would guess is an impulse to reconnect with a community. fortunately you have us now šŸ˜‚
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[Joe_Crawford] _Less space than a Nomad._
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[mattl] I think it's just because I was active on Slashdot for ages, I can't remember the last time I posted there
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[Joe_Crawford] It's not every website or piece of software that's so significant it becomes a verb. Slashdot. Photoshop. Google. Skype. Dooce. Uber and Lyft. PayPal and Venmo.
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[morganm] We use a Photoshop alternative called Acorn at work and I tried for a while to use the name Acorn and then relented to just saying Photoshopped
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[tantek] -> #indieweb-random re: photoshop/apps/verbing
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[schmarty] just saw this shared in the XOXO discord and _wow_ https://location.foursquare.com/resources/blog/products/foursquare-open-source-places-a-new-foundational-dataset-for-the-geospatial-community/
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[schmarty] foursquare open licensing their Places database and planning to keep it up to date???
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[tantek] whoa wat
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[schmarty] pinging check-in client makers plz and thx šŸ˜Š
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[tantek] no mention of Superusers in the blog post lol
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[tantek] šŸ˜„
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[tantek] this seems worth snapshotting and archiving though maybe more for #indieweb-dev
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