#indieweb 2024-12-23
2024-12-23 UTC
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[tantek]2 no worries, I totally get that was not the intent behind the words
# [tantek]2 that page is very much a brainstorm-in-progress and I tried to explicitly note "brainstorm" explicitly in various subsections to make that clear.
# [tantek]2 Perhaps I also had/implied additional context about what is the scope / purpose / methodology of brainstorming (having done it professionally for many years) that I did not make explicit
# [tantek]2 sorta indieweb creativity related, and sorta wikify related
# [tantek]2 Wikipedia has a decent page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorming and this guide also covers a bunch of the basics and typical "structure" / context / assumptions around brainstorming: https://public-media.interaction-design.org/pdf/Brainstorm.pdf (see especially rules 3, 4, and 6 there)
# [tantek]2 right even the Wikipedia preview notes this key point: "not assessed or critiqued until later. The absence of criticism and assessment is intended to avoid inhibiting participants in their idea production"
# rdg hi, does the indieweb have a clear and concise goal? Searching for goal redirects to /principles, but I'm not able to find it there
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# [tantek]2 what is the indieweb?
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Loqi The IndieWeb is a community of independent and personal websites based on the principles of: owning your domain and using it as your primary online identity, publishing on your own site first (optionally elsewhere), and owning your content https://indieweb.org/indieweb
# [tantek]2 ^ those are some of the direct goals
# [tantek]2 our principles tend to be more practical and goal-oriented, hence the redirect
# [tantek]2 rdg, do you have a personal site?
# rdg okay, I'm doing some research for the dillo talk at fosdem
# rdg yes, but only shared with a few people I know IRL
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# [tantek]2 what is dillo?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dillo" yet. Would you like to create it?_P (Or just say "dillo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek]2 rdg++ neat!
# [tantek]2 js;dr << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dillo — a browser that supports only HTML+CSS+images; scripts are ignored entirely
# Loqi ok, I added "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dillo — a browser that supports only HTML+CSS+images; scripts are ignored entirely" to the "See Also" section of /js;dr https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=99208&oldid=97775
# [tantek]2 what is js;dr
# Loqi js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indieweb.org/js;dr
# [tantek]2 rdg ^ you may be interested in that for your talk
# [tantek]2 what is progressive enhancement
# Loqi progressive enhancement is the web development practice of building web pages, sites, apps so they are at least readable, and preferably allow for most if not all interactions, from any kind of browser, and optionally take advantage of additional capabilities (like various CSS & JS features) when available https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement
# [tantek]2 ^ also that
# [tantek]2 you will find that most IndieWeb sites work quite well without JS
# rdg yes, thankfully
# rdg that's why I was asking about the goals, as smolweb seems to explicitly attempt to support older hardware
# [tantek]2 what is longevity?
# Loqi Longevity is the goal of keeping your online presence, data, and code as future-friendly and future-proof as possible; it is one of the indieweb principles https://indieweb.org/longevity
# [tantek]2 "smolweb" means different things to different people, as does "small web"
# [tantek]2 what is small web?
# Loqi Small Web (or smallweb) is a term used in a 1999 article, a hosting service, two consulting services, a May 2020 article, a Aug 2020 blog post that describes (without citing) a subset of IndieWeb principles, most recently a HackerNews summary of Gemini, and has recent variants smol web (smolweb) and smol net (smolnet) https://indieweb.org/small_web
# rdg smolweb as in https://smolweb.org/index.html: "If we incite web designers to return to a lighter web, small devices such as old PC, old smartphones, retro-machines and small boards could be usable."
# [tantek]2 long history there of things small/smol web/net and
# rdg I'm surprised there is no w3c wg yet to make a small subset of html5
# [tantek]2 "small devices such as old PC, old smartphones, retro-machines and small boards could be usable" is unfortunately tragically flawed due to the HTTPS root cert problem. Those devices have usually stopped receiving OS updates, which have then eventually lost support of modern browsers, which all build-in root certificates. So as sites update their certificates (and roots), e.g. with LetsEncrypt, older devices stop supporting HTTPS websites
# [tantek]2 that has nothing to do with HTML or CSS
# [tantek]2 yeah true
# [tantek]2 rdg, a subset of HTML5 is not really solving any problems
# [tantek]2 websites can already choose to only use a subset of HTML or CSS for that matter
# [tantek]2 Loqi is right though, if your talk is focused on technical plumbing, might be better to discuss it in #indieweb-dev. Note that the goals for the IndieWeb are user-centric which is quite different.
# [tantek]2 Dillo++ regardless, I like the idea and effort! Bummer about the original domain though
# [tantek]2 That's an indieweb related challenge
# [tantek]2 rdg, do you know how/why Dillo lost their original domain? What's the story there? And what can other projects learn from it?
# rdg what I know is more or less here: https://dillo-browser.github.io/dillo.org.html
# rdg there was a very big single point of failure (the DNS entry) and there was nobody around when it expired
# [tantek]2 ooof sorry to hear that (and the other details in that page 😞 )
# rdg it would be nice if there was something like fossil that you can put the repository along with the website and issue tracker in a single thing that is distributed among developers
# rdg so I guess that would be more resilient, even if all developers are gone, you'll only need a copy of the repository to get everything
[schmarty], cptaffe`, klymilark, oodani, grufwub, rvalue, gRegor, gRegorLove_, barnaby, petermolnar, rvalue-, ttybitnik, aelaraji5, nemonical, bterry, jonnybarnes and [aciccarello] joined the channel
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[aciccarello] Does anyone have recommendations for a free WYSIWYG website builder with custom domain support?
# [aciccarello] Yeah, that's what I thought. My brother is making a site and I recommended google sites but he says it's to simplistic.
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[mattl] http://WordPress.com I guess
# [tantek]2 since he's saying "it's too simplistic", I'd get him to write down his needs first before making any builder or CMS or host recommendations
# [aciccarello] Sounds like you need to pay for a plan for wordpress too
# [tantek]2 otherwise you have no idea if you are still recommending something "too simplistic" or if you are recommending too much admintax for his actual needs
# [aciccarello] [tantek] Yeah, I pushed him on that and I think I convinced him to stick with Google Sites
# [tantek]2 nice, well done focusing on user-needs instead of jumping to a specific CMS or host 😉
# [aciccarello] It's for a summer business. He was liking the Wix editor but $120/yr is a lot before he's even gotten any work.
# [aciccarello] He's in college right now
# [aciccarello] I'm setting him up with a subdomain of my site
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gRegor [aciccarello], I don't have personal experience, but heard good things about https://indieweb.org/Webflow
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# [tantek]2 in college? GitHub static pages
# [aciccarello] I've thought about some static hosting but he doesn't have much code experience so that'd need support from me
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# [tantek]2 college = learn to write HTML and CSS yourself 🙂
# Loqi [indienews] New post: "lab.artlung.com and a return to a World Wide Web" https://artlung.com/blog/2024/12/23/lab-artlung-com-and-a-return-to-a-world-wide-web/
# [tantek]2 [Joe_Crawford]++ this is beautiful inspiration
# [tantek]2 feeling pretty good about narrowing down coffee-focused venue categories to 5, each of which has a fairly good definition that has little overlap with the others.