#indieweb 2025-04-28

2025-04-28 UTC
eatyourglory, grufwub, xue, gRegor, Saige_Leah, rossabaker, jgee03798182, nodelay, LainIwakura, Halian, barnaby, PsyLok, spacemonkey, GuestZero, coldfeet, [Jo], claudinec, aelaraji, bterry, Pasquale and irsissy joined the channel
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irsissy https://thereisnogenoci.de/
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irsissy http://thereisnogenoci.de/
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[manton] [tantek] Good idea! Uploaded here: https://indieweb.org/File:posse_board_sxsw.jpeg
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[manton] That was slightly modified / filtered / cropped, so I could upload the original too if anyone wants it.
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[artlung] It's a fun photo! [manton]++
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Loqi [manton] has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (27 in all channels)
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[manton] I wish I knew who made the sign. It was rotating through all sorts of things but I never asked. Just happened to catch the POSSE one.
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[manton] Probably Mike McCue of Flipboard knows.
pasquale2, ttybitnik, nemonical, sebbu, LainIwakura, duanin2, xue, coldfeet, ndegruchy, PsyLok, watortii, gRegor, Daijo, rdg, rvalue-, GuestZero_, jetpack, thegreekgeek, audy, barnaby and Artsie joined the channel; rdg left the channel
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Artsie Hello. How populated is this channel?
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ndegruchy Off and on.
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[tw2113] regularly active enough that you'll often find enough people
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aaronpk indeed
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Artsie Okay, good to see. I've been looking for a community like this for a while.
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Artsie I've been keeping track of interesting articles and links for the past two years.
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Artsie Not all of them come from indie sites, but a good number of them are.
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Artsie https://artsie.red/links
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Artsie Most also have a tech/software/science bend.
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Artsie But there are nuggets from around the web there too.
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ndegruchy "Learn Vimscript the Hard Way" -- heh, you mean just "Learn Vimscript"? :D
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ndegruchy Oh, I see it's just a link elsewhere to Steve Losh's book. My bad.
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Artsie Haha, yeah. I probably won't learn it. Just stick to Neovim.
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Artsie Yeah, this page is a collection of interesting sites and pages I've been collecting for two years. The rest of the site is my workshop.
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Artsie Well, the whole site is my workshop, but the other pages are more stuff made by me.
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[artlung] You're definitely in the right place if you're tinkering with websites, sharing code and such. There are several channels. Dev channel great for talking code and implementations. And there's a random channel for more... randomness. https://indieweb.org/discuss goes into which is what is which. Welcome!
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gRegor Welcome, Artsie
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Artsie Thank you all!
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Artsie Artlung, I like your guestbook.
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Artsie I'll hop into #dev. I'm a software developer, so I'm happy to help anyone if they have questions.
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[tantek] Artsie, re: "How populated is this channel?", Slack currently has 1352 people here, Discord shows 110 "online" here, and idk how many IRC shows (some of which may be dupes/bridgebots for Slack & Discord). So somewhere between say 1500-2500 if we assume perhaps at most a similar magnitude of folks in IRC as in Slack (which seems reasonable given we started in IRC).
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gRegor 221 in here in IRC
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gRegor that does include bridged discord/slack accounts
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[tantek] ok so closer to 1500
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btrem A footnote is a note at the bottom of the page for glossing or references. Is there a term for the number or character that tells the reader there's a footnote? The [1] or [†] or whatever?
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[tantek] what is a footnote
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Loqi A footnote is a typographical convention predating the web for indicating more information is available about a word, phrase, or sentence by the use of an immediately adjacent superscript (usually a number), and the presentation of the same superscript followed by a note, often a citation, in the footer of the page, and sometimes used on the web instead of inline hyperlinks to reduce reader distraction https://indieweb.org/footnote
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gRegor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_(typography) uses "cue"
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[tantek] yeah like that's not overloaded 🙄
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[tantek] btrem, I use footnote references and expansions
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[tantek] also "cue" is one of the worst words to use for speakability / listenability. cue? Q? queue?
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btrem Seems like footnote reference can be confusing, since the footnote often contains references, e.g., [1] op.cit, p. 234 or whatever.
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[tantek] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_(typography)#Location
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[tantek] ah, even that Wikipedia article calls them "footnote reference (numbers)"
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[tantek] re: "since the footnote often contains references", I'd say those are citations
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btrem reference numbers makes sense, I suppose, when using numbers for footnotes.
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[tantek] as clued in by "op.cit" where presumably the "cit." is short for citation 🙂
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btrem Those are citations, yes. Often though people think of references in that context.
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[tantek] Wikipedia uses the term "ref" for the thing in-place like [1] etc. So I'd say "ref(erence)" has "won" that naming battle
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btrem Strange that there isn't a well-defined term for the text ref/cue. Apparently cue is often used, I guess that answer my question, though I can't say I'm happy with the answer!
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[tantek] Wikipedia uses the term "note" for the thing at the end, which just sounds awkward "footnote note" lol
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[tantek] so for lack of a better alternative I use "footnote expansion". alternatives welcome!
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btrem Well, when I started writing my 11ty footnote thing, I first used footnoteReference. So I guess I'll just go back to what I started with. :)
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[tantek] yeah "cue" is a crappy answer. I might have to check my CMoS to see what it says
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[tantek] footnoteReference++ independent invention btrem!
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Loqi footnoteReference has 1 karma over the last year
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btrem Or I could go with a later idea, footnoteMark. Maybe.
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[tantek] there is also a <mark> element so that might be confusing in an HTML context
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gRegor I think of the number/symbol in the text as "footnote identifier" and the note at the bottom as just "footnote"
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[tantek] I've heard plain term "footnote" to refer to either side / part, or to both as a set, so that feels too ambiguous to reliably refer to only one part
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gRegor "footnote cue" would also seem to remove most ambiguity from "cue". But "cue" terminology is new to me. Granted, haven't spent a lot of time thinking about footnotes.
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btrem gRegor: More room for confusion, since it's common to use an id attribute on the footnote a the bottom of the page, and link to it in the text.
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btrem Speaking of cue, cue Loqi to wrap me on the knuckles.
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[tantek] gives Loqi a wrap
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Loqi peers at the wrap
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[tantek] no luck
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gRegor eats the wrap
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btrem [tantek]: good point about the mark element. Once again, the hardest thing in cs is naming things and cache invalidation. :-D
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btrem gRegor: :-D
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btrem Oh, and of course off-by-one errors, which I'm also trying to avoid in the context of footnotes, arrays, and ordered lists!
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btrem This time for sure. No? Loqi?
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[artlung] when one word is ambiguous, add clarifying modifiers. "footnote reference mark"
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gRegor Yep, if in doubt, reference marksuth in your footnotes :D
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[artlung] or use some other marker
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btrem [artlung]: names can get rather bulky. `footnoteReferenceMark` is a lot of characters to type. ;-)
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[artlung] https://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/documentation/reference/html/footnoteref.html
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btrem [artlung]++ I think that settles it. I'm going with footnoteRef. Which is shorter than what I had, footnoteReference.
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Loqi [artlung] has 15 karma in this channel over the last year (52 in all channels)
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[tantek] for the thing to stick in IDs, I roughly copied Wikpiedia's conventions of _ref and _note
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[tantek] oops sorry that's #indieweb-dev talk
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