#indieweb 2026-04-23

2026-04-23 UTC
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[Kupietz] Wow, mythos breached and the vercel leak in the same week. We're living in a new and scary paradigm, entirely because of humans being lax, it seems. Clearly humans are the weak link in cybersecurity and must be eliminated.
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[capjamesg] Do we have a wiki page on having a “professional” website or section of your website?
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[Murray] there's portfolio: https://indieweb.org/portfolio and cv/resume: https://indieweb.org/resum%C3%A9
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lesleylai The wiki says that
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lesleylai This feels pretty weird (and narrow). I have a projects page, but I don't have paying customers (or even potential employers) in mind, and it's more about just listing my personal projects for visitors of whatever purposes
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lesleylai > A portfolio on the Indieweb is a professional web page (or collection thereof) targeted at paying customers/clients that often shows examples of work and projects.
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[capjamesg] Yeah. It feels like we could expand that a bit?
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[Murray] Yeah, I think that's fair. Lots of people have pages that collect side projects or demos or even art, chiefly as a "hey, look at the stuff I made"/discovery mechanism, rather than targeting a payday. That said, I think plenty of portfolios *are* targeted at career opportunities/growth. Perhaps reversing the emphasis, something like "A portfolio on the IndieWeb is a page (or collection thereof) that highlights examples of projects or
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[Murray] work, either for discovery or in a professional context"?
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[Murray] Quick stab 😄
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[Murray] I'd say archival is another reason I see these pages getting used
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[capjamesg] I like that direction!
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[capjamesg] If anyone has a portfolio, feel free to add it to the IndieWeb Examples section. The more examples we have the easier it will be to refine the definition!
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[Murray] @lesleylai if you have some specific ideas, feel free to edit the page 🙂 happy for you to use anything I wrote. And as James says, add yourself to the page if you haven't already!
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lesleylai Yeah. I will edit the page with some of the ideas here incorporated
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[capjamesg] lesleylai++
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Loqi lesleylai has 3 karma over the last year
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lesleylai Did some editing: https://indieweb.org/portfolio
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[jeremycherfas] I feel strongly that the values now ascribed to amateur and professional have been a huge mistake. Professional is all about being paid a salary or by clients. Nothing about competence. And amateur is all about poor, shoddy performance. Nothing about love or expertise.
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[capjamesg] leslaylai++ great improvements.
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[capjamesg] oops, typo
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[capjamesg] lesleylai++
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[Murray] [jeremycherfas] I may be misunderstanding, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to be an amateur and be competent? Though I'm also not sure that I'd see it as the inverse of professional anyway, though I do see where that's coming from 🤷
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[jeremycherfas] No, you are understanding perfectly. We both, I believe, use amateur to mean competent (and unpaid). Most people I see use it as a denigratory slur. And they use professional as praise.
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[Murray] Ah yeah, that's fair, definitely not a fan of that divide 🙂 And agreed on the term of amateur, it's like a step up from "hobbyist" or "enthusiast" or something to me, as in someone that could make money (and maybe even does make a small amount) but it isn't their _profession_, its just something they do as a passion project or for enjoyment
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[jeremycherfas] Violent agreement.
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[Murray] 😄
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ribose ah, interesting! I'm surprised to see amateur described as a step up from hobbyist. my associations with the two terms is flipped, with hobbyist as being actively engaged and making things for the love of it
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ribose totally agree re: amateur/professional divide
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[Jo] i always use amateur as a compliment, regardless of percieved quality, if I get the feeling someone loved making something that's a positive thing in my mind
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[Jo] to me an amateur web dev could be anyone from someone who just learned about HTML to someone who's had "professional" education on all things web, but isn't getting paid for this particular thing
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lesleylai At least for me (ESL speaker), the word "amateur" has 2 meaning: 1. pursuing something in pastime rather than as a profession 2. lack of experience. So if I want to avoid ambiguity, I'd rather use "hobbyist" or "enthusiast"
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "The internet used to be* fun ("here’s a collection of articles")" https://projects.kwon.nyc/internet-is-fun/ (from https://artlung.com/indienews/2dbbc8d29f00170cba507294c99d680c)
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Turboblack hi2all
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[tantek] I also feel hobbyist and certainly enthusiast is a step up from "amateur"
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[tantek] I feel I've heard "amateur" as semi-independent of "professional", as in there can be amateur professionals
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[KevinMarks] Me on amateur from long ago https://epeus.blogspot.com/2005/11/not-consumers-or-users-but-amateurs.html?m= - in British English there's always an under current of snootiness though - "amateur" can be disparaging just as "academic" can.
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[Murray] Yeah, I agree with that last point, I don't see amateur and professional as a strict delineation. Interesting RE: enthusiast, that term definitely has strong connotations of "very new to this" that amateur just doesn't for me 😄 As ever, language is hard and more localised than the web typically allows for
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[jeremycherfas] I wonder whether there might be an Atlantic divide on Amateur, but have not yet read the article by [KevinMarks]
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[KevinMarks] Made with more love than money? Or made from love rather than for money? It is a messy distinction.
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[jeremycherfas] Yup, as expected I agree with [KevinMarks] ++
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[KevinMarks] It connects a bit with Teller's definition of magic - putting more effort into achieving an effect than is at all reasonable. A lot of craft is like that.
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[artlung] There is a time dimension to professional versus amateur. A person may have a goal to be professional. Person may not have a goal to be professional, and yet professionalism may emerge as they get paid to do something. And people retire and continue doing work for no money. Any label like this is subject to change.
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[jeremycherfas] Yes, that is good. Doing something for the love of it that goes way beyond anything reasonable.
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[artlung] “When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.” – – Hunter Thompson
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[jeremycherfas] At its core, though, my objection is to the use of amateur as a negative and professional as a positive.
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[artlung] I will add that some of us live in countries where we must work, there is no way to live without income. No state support.
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[jeremycherfas] [artlung] this is not about privilege.
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[artlung] I believe I’m in agreement with that, if I’m taking your meaning accurately
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[jeremycherfas] One example. There were coal miners who worked bloody awful jobs because they had to, to support their families, and who were gifted amateur plant breeders.
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[tantek] [jeremycherfas] I consider myself a decades long amateur "indie" photographer (and I've my photos published / used in publications, mostly digital/online, a few physical). have never gotten paid.
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[tantek] I have no desire to be or be labeled (would actively refuse) a "professional photographer"
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[tantek] There is more to "professional" than just "being paid". E.g. many professions have conventions, guidelines, or even formal processes, and the more you adopt those the more you become a "professional" in that area, at least in spirit if not in pay
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[Murray] I don't think anyone is making an argument that you would be regarded as "professional photographer" within that context?
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[tantek] In contrast I think the term "amateur" or "hacker" has some implicit rejection of "formality" or "formal processes" or such "conventions"
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[tantek] [Murray] I was noting on the "time dimension" that even with "decades" of experience in "practicing" something, that's not necessarily enough to consider (or even desire to be) being "professional"
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[Murray] ah yeah, that makes sense, and I think aligns with overall sentiment in the thread so far 🙂
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[tantek] I have seen "amateur" used both as a deprecating meaning, and in a proud of it meaning. I think it's impossible to constrain it to one or the other and they are subject to context including speaker and whether said about oneself or others
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aaronpk don't forget about "amateur radio"
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secondrealm Hi! I'm introducing myself. My name is Eric, aka secondrealm. Discovered IndieWeb from sive.rs post about POSSE. I'm in the process of consolidating my internet pressence from the various silos I've participated on (most notably X/Twitter w/ 64k posts since 2019). It's still early days for me. You can find my website here: https://secondrealm.com. I'm also going to capture. my indie web journey here: https://indieweb.o
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[tantek] welcome secondrealm++
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secondrealm [tantek]: 👋 thanks!
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[capjamesg] Welcome secondrealm!
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[jeremycherfas] Seems to me [tantek] that you are distinguishing yourself as an amateur photographer from the vastly greater number of people who snap pictures with their phones. And I agree with that. In the olden days maybe you even developed your own film and prints.
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secondrealm [capjamesg]: thank you!
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candycanea hi
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[capjamesg] Welcome candycanea!
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[capjamesg] Do you have a personal website?
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[Jo] hello!
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[tantek] [jeremycherfas] you're right, I should clarify, amateur digital photographer 😆
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[Leo] Hello! 👋
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[Leo] Found this place through hackernews (of all places). Seems euro by the timestamps. Any Canadians lurking?
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GWG We have a mix of Americans and Europeans in terms of the largest concentrations, but also individuals from other countries.
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GWG We do have Canadians in the community as well, but not as many as I'd like as it would give me an excuse to finally sightsee in certain parts of Canada.
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ZodiacalComet Welcome, [Leo]!
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