#dev 2016-08-19

2016-08-19 UTC
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miklb the more I look at modifying my rakefile to get the bridgy response, the more I think I'm going to need a ruby mentor to help talk me through
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miklb would also help if I knew how a webmention was constructed :-P
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aaronpk miklb! What part of webmention do you need help with? webmention.rocks should be a pretty helpful tool to walk you through it
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aaronpk hmm my OSBridge talk might be a good resource
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aaronpk I walk through step by step building a page and getting a comment to show up there
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miklb aaronpk the rakefile that aaron gustfason shared uses curl to send the webmention. I want to convert that to use net/http so I can get the response from bridgy (I'm assuming that's correct) so that I can get the u-syndicate link and store that as jekyll front matter.
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aaronpk That sounds doable!
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aaronpk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0u2Knp8P9eY
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miklb and right now, I'm honestly not understanding how the webmention is constructed between endpoint, target and source
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bear you can also look at how I do it in python
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bear what is ronkyuu
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Loqi ronkyuu is a Python open source project that is being designed to handle all IndieWeb requirements for static sites https://indieweb.org/ronkyuu
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bear hmm, that is wrong
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bear but that is a python lib to process webmentions and it has some notes on testing
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (+1) "update dfn" (view diff)
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miklb thanks bear
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miklb n00b question alert; sending a webmention is just endpoint?source=source_url&target=target_url ?
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miklb if anyone familiar with ruby and net/http can tell me if I'm on the right track, I'd be grateful https://gist.github.com/miklb/690a76b88a2f289681f6df09ebcaa709
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KevinMarks_ Well, it's a post, so not in the url, but effectively yes. You can do it with a form
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KevinMarks_ However you send a form POST in your language, do that
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KevinMarks_ (sorry, replied in the slack, forgot it wasn't mirrored)
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miklb KevinMarks_ this is just for sending a webmention so I can get the response. It's done via a Rakefile. Currently uses a curl command
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miklb didn't realize slack didn't mirror to IRC
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KevinMarks_ Only the indieweb one does at the moment
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KevinMarks_ So, the point is that the parameters go in the payload, form encoded, as it's a POST not a GET
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miklb gotcha
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miklb assumes that payload can be sent as json
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aaronpk Why would you want to send the payload as json? That sounds like extra work
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miklb because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm googling examples :)
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miklb it *looks* pretty straight forward with net/http
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KevinMarks Is that ruby?
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miklb that is the deep end of the pool I'm in tonight, yes
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KevinMarks Looks easy require "net/http" require "uri" uri = URI.parse("http://example.com/search") # Shortcut response = Net::HTTP.post_form(uri, {"q" => "My query", "per_page" => "50"})
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aaronpk Form encoded is built in to every http library so basically if you don't do anything special and use an example you find you will end up sending a form encoded request
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aaronpk my favorite ruby http client is httparty but it's not a big deal
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miklb aaronpk I saw reference to that, but for my needs, wasn't sure another gem was necessary
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miklb seems like you can set the params and then pass params.to_json along with headers but doesn't look like need to do that?
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rascul yay my site generator is "done" now i get to play with templates
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KevinMarks No, you don't want to send json here.
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miklb ok. thanks
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KevinMarks Micropub has a json option, but webmention is just form encoding
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aaronpk response = Net::HTTP.post_form(uri, {"q" => "My query", "per_page" => "50"})
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aaronpk That seems simple enough
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aaronpk just send source and target params
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miklb yep. seems to be working. Just need to get the link onto the live post to confirm.
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aaronpk just googled net::http form post
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aaronpk cool
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miklb knowing what ot google for…priceless
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rascul does mf2 require classes or can i use an id also?
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rascul well, intead of, not also
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miklb totally worked. Thanks aaronpk, KevinMarks
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miklb now on to phase 2
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KevinMarks No, classes not id
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KevinMarks You can use an id, but mf2 won't parse it
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rascul ok thanks
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emmahodge.org edited /2016/NYC2/Planning (+357) "/* Questions */" (view diff)
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emmahodge.org edited /2016/NYC2/Planning (+2) "/* Questions */" (view diff)
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AngeloGladding KevinMarks, kylewm had the same repr h-card implementation on his own site -- he's aware and a patch has been submitted
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AngeloGladding i've added you both to the crawl
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AngeloGladding i'm json dumping my graph to one degree of separation: https://angelo.lahacker.net/people/graph.json
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AngeloGladding anyone feel free to use it for analysis
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KevinMarks That's a lot of stuff http://www.unmung.com/jsontoxoxo?url=https%3A%2F%2Fangelo.lahacker.net%2Fpeople%2Fgraph.json
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AngeloGladding 1.2 MB at this point.. a full dump.. i'll release a two-degrees dump soon.. will be an order of magnitude more data..
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AngeloGladding i'll actually make use of the data on the individual person pages on my site
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AngeloGladding highlighting representative h-cards, collapsing feed entries into readable summaries, etc
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AngeloGladding just providing a near real-time semantic graph of the indieweb
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miklb my new crazy idea is instead of trying to parse out just the url for u-syndicate and try to save it as front matter is to dump the whole response to a json data file sinceJekyll can read them and then all of the tweet object is available
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petermolnar morning
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Loqi guten morgen
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petermolnar is anyone aware of a comparison of front matter "variables" in the most common static generators? (jekyll, hugo, pelican, etc. )
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voxpelli petermolnar: please share if you find one :)
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petermolnar sounds like something I'll need to do myself
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petermolnar I was thinking to look into the "old" formats, such as asciidoc, various library methods, the current most commons way and try to come up with some sort of most compatible layout
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petermolnar what is frontmatter?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "frontmatter" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar what is front matter?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "front matter" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar frontmatter is a common way to include metadata in plain text, commonly Markdown formats by adding a YAML block in front of the actual data, divided by a top "---" and a bottom "---" or "...". Pandoc supports these blocks when converting one format to another, see http://pandoc.org/MANUAL.html#extension-yaml_metadata_block
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loqi.me created /frontmatter (+356) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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petermolnar front matter is /frontmatter
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /front_matter (+24) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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petermolnar.net edited /frontmatter (+3308) (view diff)
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petermolnar what is pandoc?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pandoc" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar pandoc is a format converter which supports an extreme variety of input and output formats; useful to convert from/to HTML, Markdown, XML, docx, etc. formats. See http://pandoc.org/
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loqi.me created /pandoc (+213) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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GWG Morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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petermolnar morning
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cmal ahoy
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@sil @mhoye Yeah. Webmentions provide the same two-way-link that pingback was made to do, but they haven't been adopted. (twitter.com/_/status/766632685133504512)
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@mhoye @sil WebMentions doesn't solves any of the problems that really killed pingbacks, that being spammers. (twitter.com/_/status/766634406110953472)
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miklb voxpelli what do you think of my latest hair brain idea of dumping the whole response from bridgy into a json data file?
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aaronpk "haven't been adopted" is a bit harsh
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aaronpk maybe "haven't been adopted by major services"
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KevinMarks Haven't been widely adopted, but WordPress should ship them
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aaronparecki.com edited /2016/Brighton (+14) "+me" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /OpenID (+7) "fix openid.server example" (view diff)
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voxpelli miklb: could work, can't really remember the full flow there of the top of my head :)
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miklb seems pretty straight forward to read the data files. Found I was going to have difficulty figuring out which file I needed to add the FM to, so this way I can use a regex to get the last part of the source URL which happens to be slug, and use that as the data file name, Then can slug FM to access the file and loop through the data. At least that's my plan :)
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miklb and on that note, off to the beach shortly for the weekend. have a good one everyone.
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cmal https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Federation/Candidates ← Isn't ActivityPub considered a federation protocol? is there a specific reason why it's not listed there?
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aaronpk cmal: the last edit to that page was over a year ago. i think activitypub wasn't considered a federation protocol then
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cmal thanks for the clear answer :)
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aaronpk always a good idea to look at the date of the last edit on wiki pages :)
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cmal (true)
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aaronpk also the group changed the way we were working from picking a single option to letting multiple options develop in parallel
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aaronpk so the whole question of "which thing should we use as the federation protocol" became irrelevant
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aaronpk so that page stopped getting updated
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cmal so you think there's going to be parallel adoption of PubSubHubHub and ActivityPub for federation?
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cmal is there even any proposal for interoperability between these two?
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cmal (or with Solid?)
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aaronpk pubsubhubbub was only recently adopted by the group so not really sure where that's going to end up
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cmal still I haven't stumbled upon any proposal for mapping of data types between Solid/ActivityStreams/MF2, if anyone has *any* reading on the topic, consider me interested :)
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aaronpk i suspect there won't be much until there are actually more implementations of activitystreams
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aaronpk right now the whole activity* side of things is pretty experimental and only has a couple implementations, mostly by the authors of the specs
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aaronpk rhiaro is the only one I know of who's actually implemented parts from all three of solid, activitystreams/activitypub, and microformats2 in her own site
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aaronpk i'm sure she would welcome more people trying out similar things if you're interested :)
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cmal hmm that's interesting
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cmal is this the source code running her website? https://bitbucket.org/rhiaro/slogd
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aaronpk not sure
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aaronpk i think so?
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cmal cool, I'll take a peek :)
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rhiaro cmal: slogd is my current site, rebuilding to be centered around activitystreams/activity pub in github.com/rhiaro/sloph .. Hoping to get that rolled out this weekend/next week
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rhiaro slogd is a hodgepodge. Well, everything is
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rhiaro And documentation is sort of shaping up at https://w3c-social.github.io/social-web-protocols, but still a ways to go
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Loqi [Amy Guy] Social Web Protocols
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rhiaro documentation for mapping between those things, that is
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rhiaro sloph also does some LDP (solid) parts, slogd doesn't beside everything being stored as RDF
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cmal thanks for the links rhiaro :)
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rhiaro no problem.. happy to answer questions
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rhiaro a lot of it is quite baffling
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rhiaro (even to me :)
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cmal so, sorry I'm a little lost in your code, what actual data format are you using to store items? and what is this "turtle" thing ? https://github.com/rhiaro/sloph/blob/master/data/160601-002038_574e1c4d6f40d.ttl
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cmal (with many prefixes for different data representation schemes)
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rhiaro turtle is an RDF syntax
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rhiaro I'm storing it in a triplestore
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rhiaro There are some data dumps lying around for testing
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rhiaro / backup
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rhiaro It's not very well organised, sorry
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rhiaro I don't actually store in those flat files
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cmal so you store the content as AS2, microformats2 and RDF or isn't that what you mean by triplestore?
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cmal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplestore ← guess I found the answer to my noob question :)
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rhiaro AS2 and microformats are vocabularies. Sloph uses AS2 plus a couple of others. RDF is an abstract graph syntax. Triplestore is a database to store RDF in.
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rhiaro vocabularies ie schema
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cmal so you use RDF to store the objects and generate views for AS2/MF2 ?
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cmal (or I still don't get it? ^^")
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rhiaro That's right
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rhiaro If you request a page with Accept: ld+json you get AS2 as JSON
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rhiaro if you reqeuest text/html you get an html page with RDFa and microformats
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cmal clever :)
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rhiaro (well not yet because I haven't finished my tempplating, but that's the idea0
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rhiaro (sorry for typos I'm on an extremely wobbly train right now, my laptop is all over the place)
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club (+21) "/* Where */ goDaddy again" (view diff)
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rhiaro a slightly outdated subset of sloph is running at blog.rhiaro, so if you try:
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rhiaro curl -v -H "Accept: application/ld+json" http://blog.rhiaro.co.uk/updated-working
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rhiaro you get AS2 json
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rhiaro if you try text/turtle you get turtle
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rhiaro It might even do rdf/xml but we don't need to talk about that ;)
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club (+71) "/* San Francisco */ indie event" (view diff)
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cmal so, sorry for the very noob questions (I'm very new to RDF), but do you think RDF is more suited as a backend storage than AS2/MF2? I'm guessing it must be easier and faster to parse than MF2, but regarding AS2 I don't see a real difference between the two (RDF seems to be using tripples, AS2 has transitive/intransitive semantics and object/actor/activity differentiation)
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cmal so did you chose RDF storage for technical reasons or to try out something new? (or anything else?)
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rhiaro AS2 is a JSON syntax, which can also be represneted as JSON-LD. That's just a serialisation of RDF (like turtle). So I can store my data in the abstract graph form in the triplestore (still using AS2 as the vocab) and then serialize it in whatever syntax requested (json, html, turtle)
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club (+52) "/* San Francisco */ fb event" (view diff)
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rhiaro so they fit together well
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cmal (and yeah the cURL header Accept did return some JSON to me, consider me very impressed)
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rhiaro and the EasyRdf php library makes parsing and serialising this stuff super easy
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rhiaro just as you'd use a microformats parsing library
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cmal are you saying RDFa and AS2 share the same vocabulary but represented differently (JSON-LD vs XML)?
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rhiaro RDFa is just another serialisation - it's RDF in HTML (like microformats)
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rhiaro the vocabulary is still AS2
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cmal I see
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rhiaro So where you'd do <article class="h-entry"> in microformats you'd do <article typeof="Note">
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rhiaro different syntaxes, but basically doing the same thing in the HTML case
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rhiaro RDFa has more HTML attirbutes you use to describe stuff, where mf2 just uses class. But mf2 prefixes (p-, u-) do the same thing as the different html attributes
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rhiaro more or less
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KevinMarks I did a post that mapped between them, but not for a h-entry case
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cmal wow, thank you so much for your time rhiaro you just saved me from hours of confusion (doesn't mean I'm gonna skip reading the specs, don't worry :D)
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rhiaro happy to answer these kinds of questions :)
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rhiaro it's like the one thing I know about
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rhiaro also I have a bunch of posts on my site exporing some of this stuff, check /tag/activitystreams, /tag/microformats, /tag/socialwg and similar
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KevinMarks You wrote the book on it
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cmal I sure will take a look :)
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AngeloGladding rhiaro i'm adding all pages with representative h-cards to an indieweb-wide crawl -- if you add a `p-uid` to your h-card's `p-url` i can add you too
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gRegorLove I think I have one on gregorlove.com, though only by accident, since I only publish the most recent article on the homepage, not a stream.
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gRegorLove Not sure I understand the differences between representative h-card and /authorship
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AngeloGladding the list is at https://angelo.lahacker.net/people and i have indeed added you
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AngeloGladding yours does look unintentional
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AngeloGladding but it passes #3 in the parsing algorithm at http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-h-card-parsing
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Loqi representative-h-card-parsing
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AngeloGladding oh hey thanks for pointing out /authorship
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AngeloGladding it suggests improvements on the representative h-card parsing algorithm that could allow me to add some 70+ from /irc-people that don't currently have one
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aaronpk representative h-card is meant to be used on someone's author URL, /authorship is to discover the author given a URL of a post
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AngeloGladding aaronpk: from /authorship "Note: the steps of checking for "url == uid == page's URL" and "url that's also a rel-me" were incorporated inline from the steps for parsing a representative h-card. Some improvements have been made here due to feedback from implementations in practice, and those improvements should be incorporated into an iteration of representative h-card. "
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gRegorLove So authorship supersedes it? What's an "author URL"?
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aaronpk oh huh
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aaronpk i thought representative h-card was when you're starting with like an indieauth login URL
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AngeloGladding not sure what you mean there but indieauth would be a great time to use it -- to present the consuming site w/ full name and contact (basic registration material)
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aaronpk when you sign in to https://telegraph.p3k.io it looks for an h-card on your page and adds your contact info and photo from it
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aaronpk it uses this to find it https://github.com/indieweb/representative-h-card-php
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gRegorLove AngeloGladding: Cool. What are your plans for that list?
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gRegorLove rel=followee is interesting. Haven't seen that before, I don't think.
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AngeloGladding yeah i definitely made it up
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AngeloGladding wiktionary has it defined
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AngeloGladding whereas the noun form of "following" is just as you'd expect -- a group of people
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AngeloGladding your person page on my site rel=me's back to your site
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gRegorLove I have a list of people I'm following. No rels, though. http://gregorlove.com/following/
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aaronpk what is following?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/following
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aaronpk gRegorLove: add yourself there?
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gRegorLove It's on /follower
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aaronpk oh huh
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gRegorLove Yeah, those two are a bit confusing
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aaronpk oops "follow" just un-worded
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gRegorLove ?
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AngeloGladding gRegorLove nice -- should definitely add an XFN rel to those
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gRegorLove What is XFN?
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Loqi XFN is an abbreviation for XHTML Friends Network, the network of visible links across blogs that claim various XFN relationships with/to each other https://indieweb.org/XFN
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aaronpk http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=unword
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gRegorLove I think I had XFN ages ago.
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gRegorLove With my current indieweb understanding, I'm not sure what functionality XFN would give me.
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AngeloGladding it was the first microformat that predates microformats
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aaronpk basically nothing right now
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gRegorLove I primarily use that page now as a list of domains I'll accept vouch from
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AngeloGladding where do you link to it from your main page?
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gRegorLove And, in theory, importing subscriptions to a reader like /Woodwind, when they support that.
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gRegorLove It's not linked publicly on my site yet.
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gRegorLove Still working through some navigation / structural changes
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AngeloGladding so if you rel=me it somehow from your identity page -- e.g. rel=me "About" and from "About" rel=me /following -- i'll find it and represent it on your page on my site
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gRegorLove I like my minimal layout and didn't want to just start packing a bunch of links in navigation or footer, so I have stuff like /following and /events not linked :)
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AngeloGladding i'll eventually traverse all rel=me's
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aaronpk yeah i have a bunch of unlinked pages too
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AngeloGladding i think that breaks some fundamental rule of WWW ;)
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aaronpk nah
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gRegorLove AngeloGladding: What would it represent on your site? Like you'd show the list of sites I'm following?
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aaronpk security by obscurity
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AngeloGladding danger
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AngeloGladding that'll keep you from open sourcing your code
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aaronpk it's not really supposed to be secret anyway
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gRegorLove Is the JSON supposed to appear at the bottom of https://angelo.lahacker.net/2016/08/18/uWdjG/added-event ?
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AngeloGladding gRegorLove -- a decentralized social network should emerge
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AngeloGladding um yeah i'm heavy on the consumption right now, light on the production :)
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gRegorLove np, just wondering :)
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AngeloGladding i'm working out a way to abstract post-types, etc. at the core of my platform
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AngeloGladding so yes its there for dev purposes
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gRegorLove Hmm. Would a rel=me to my "following" page be accurate? It's not really another profile that represents me.
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gRegorLove What is rel-me
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Loqi Using rel=me on a hyperlink indicates that its destination represents the same person or entity as the current page, which is a key building-block of web-sign-in and IndieAuth https://indieweb.org/rel%3Dme
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AngeloGladding hmm.. that's actually a good question
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AngeloGladding i made that assumption long ago
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AngeloGladding that definition may be a modernized adaptation
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gRegorLove Yeah, I think it definitely represents more current practices. Don't know about the history.
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gRegorLove I have rel-mes in <links> on my homepage, so could easily add a link to following there. A different rel might be preferable (or not... not sure)
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AngeloGladding http://gmpg.org/xfn/11#me "There is an implicit "me" relation from the contents of a directory to the directory itself." interesting..
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AngeloGladding i'd say it's appropriate and i'll be using rel=me's to build a personal graph so it'll be appropriate at least in my context :)
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AngeloGladding i'll ask around
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gRegorLove ben_thatmustbeme's list is at https://ben.thatmustbe.me/whitelist and is linked from his homepage as rel-alternate, AS2 format apparently: http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?op=mf2-as2&url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2F%2Fwhitelist
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gRegorLove I'm going to stick with rel-mes for other profiles
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aaronpk gRegorLove: i think that rel-alternate link is on every page and links to the stream.thatmustbe.us converter for each page itself
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gRegorLove oops, looking at the wrong page source
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gRegorLove You're right.
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gRegorLove I thought at some point his homepage linked to the whitelist, but not currently
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AngeloGladding aaronpk ChrisAldrich made a good comment last night -- the ever expanding crawl will help us visualize what technologies are and are not being used
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aaronpk that was the goal of indie-stats.com
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/indie-stats
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GWG Yawn
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GWG I am going to accomplish something this weekend.
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AngeloGladding bear presented indie-stats.com last night
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AngeloGladding so it appears to be more of an archive
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AngeloGladding which will certainly give it more coverage and lend itself to a simple interface
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AngeloGladding but i'm looking to crawl around rel=me's and fetch content found inside h-entries and what not
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AngeloGladding pull in data from behind walled gardens
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AngeloGladding heuristics here and there, raising the bar of standards compliance through immediate visual feedback
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AngeloGladding overlapping no doubt.. i'll have to take a look at his code
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AngeloGladding but eventually i want to distribute the crawl load amongst other peers and query the graph in a decentralized fashion
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AngeloGladding so i'm definitely just bootstrapping now by dumping /irc-people and what not but i don't intend to keep a complete list forever
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AngeloGladding gg bbl