#dev 2017-03-14

2017-03-14 UTC
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tantek.com edited /chat (+414) "fix dfn to be more practically applicable / useful, indieweb examples none so far, silo examples stub, xkcd" (view diff)
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tantek what is chat?
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Loqi chat is informal messaging offered by numerous services, a few of which interoperate or bridge with each other, and also a set of brainstorms for what an amazing indieweb friendly chat web app/site could do https://indieweb.org/chat
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tantek better, also check out that xkcd
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aaronpk oh my
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jorge.at.anteris.net edited /Open_Collaboration_Services (+247) (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de deleted /Glitch "Deleted to make way for move"
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www.svenknebel.de moved /Gomix to /Glitch "renamed: https://medium.com/glitch/welcome-to-glitch-fe161d0fc39b"
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Glitch (+2) "renamed: https://medium.com/glitch/welcome-to-glitch-fe161d0fc39b" (view diff)
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tantek whoa what
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tantek hey there was no need to delete the existing Glitch
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tantek skenebel - only mistakes should be deleted. Glitch was an actual thing, and thus ok to move to another page (rename)
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sknebel sorry. seemed irrelevant enough :/
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tantek was anything linking to it?
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aaronpk looks like no https://indieweb.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Glitch
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tantek looks up how to undelete
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tantek aaronpk: still it's a bad habit
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek we should only be deleting mistakes and redirects to make room for actual pages
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Loqi +1
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jorge.at.anteris.net edited /CONTRIBOOK (+83) (view diff)
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tantek.com restored /Glitch "2 revisions restored"
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tantek restored to where?
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tantek oh boy did I do a db boo boo?
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tantek uh oh where did it go? https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3AUndelete&prefix=Glitch
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sknebel weird
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sknebel I can create a page manually with the old content
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tantek oh it got shoved into the history of the existing page!!! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Glitch&action=history
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tantek ok mediawiki you are weird
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tantek wow I don't think I can undo that
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tantek the pages histories are now tangled
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gregorlove.com created /Peach (+232) "prompted by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Slack (+259) "add Glitch to a History section here with link to old page revision" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Peach (+180) "app-only, reverse-engineered API" (view diff)
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tantek what is a web application
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web application" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is a web app
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web app" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is a webapp
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webapp" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek seriously
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tantek web app is /web_application
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loqi.me created /web_app (+28) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek webapp is /web_application
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loqi.me created /webapp (+28) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /Glitch (+219) "formerly Gomix, other previous uses, see also" (view diff)
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tantek sknebel: also good to save any prior names when you rename things so old (textual) references are still findable
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sknebel k
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tantek (e.g. "formerly Gomix" etc.)
ben_thatmustbeme, bnvk, tantek, barpthewire, deathrow1, gRegorLove, cweiske, [kevinmarks] and miklb joined the channel
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bnvk aaronpk: are you aware of http://ircv3.net ? I just came across it :P
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tantek what is ircv3?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ircv3" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek huh I thought we did
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tantek bnvk - yeah I think we discussed it a while ago in IRC - try our IRC log search!
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aaronpk haha yeah I'm not sure where that's going
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Loqi awesome
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cweiske.de edited /Loqi (+81) "/* Other */" (view diff)
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bnvk aaronpk: meaning you think it's kind of stagnant / not worth following?
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aaronpk It seems to be being worked on
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aaronpk but the chances of major players like freenode switching to it are probably slim
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bnvk yah, it does
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bnvk hrm
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aaronpk and there are also totally separate efforts going on like Matrix
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aaronpk which are probably better technical solutions
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aaronpk my plan is to just ignore it until it shakes out
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bnvk ah, so that's your overall feeling about IRC these days... noted ;)
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aaronpk matrix is kind of a complicated protocol, but they do seem to be doing a lot of things right
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bnvk what do you think about their @username:domain.com syntax?
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aaronpk I wish they had just used email address syntax
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bnvk heh, me too. I made a strong impassioned argument to Matthew about that- but he wasn't having it :/
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aaronpk I'm not sold on Matrix either, but I'm impressed they've gotten this far
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aaronpk what i would really like to see is a protocol that is much easier to implement from scratch
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aaronpk Like how with webmention you can implement it incrementally and still participate in conversations
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bnvk yah, das webmention ist sehr gut
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aaronpk I do keep thinking what an indieweb chat protocol would look like
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tantek what is chat
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Loqi chat is informal messaging offered by numerous services, a few of which interoperate or bridge with each other, and also a set of brainstorms for what an amazing indieweb friendly chat web app/site could do https://indieweb.org/chat
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aaronpk Yeah that
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aaronpk the pieces are pretty well in place for that to work. The main difference between that and Matrix is that as written, the indieweb on relies on a single coordination server to distribute the messages
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aaronpk So it's more like IRC in that regard
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petermolnar aaronpk is reinventing the old skype
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martymcgui.re edited /highlight (+206) "/* Twitter */ add another photo-of-highlighted-text example" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct-feedback (+79) "subheads for different discussions to reference, move tommorris reply to context of what it is replying to" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell cweiske can I ask you a few questions about shpub when you get a chance?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bear I so want to figure out how to get webmentions to be the backbone for a distributed chat system
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tantek waho
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tantek bear, just figure out a Webmention to XMPP bridge ;)
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tantek ducks
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bear :)
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aaronpk bear: we can totally do it, and it would work great using an aggregator (like indienews) to coordinate the conversation
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bear right - it's the coordination that gets me stuck
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tantek appreciates bear's sense of humor :)
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aaronpk i was reading the matrix spec about server-to-server federation, and they have a bunch of stuff about how conversations don't actually "live" in any one place
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bear haha - you can't be in the XMPP world for as long as I have without having a good sense of humour
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aaronpk and all the different players can backfill a channel from any other server
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Loqi bear: lol
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bear right - it's the deduping and discovery of new chat items that bogs me down
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bear which feels like a solved problem with something like superfeedr and even xmpp muc
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singpolyma webmention-to-XMPP would probably bridge to pubsub or MUC, in which case conversations *do* live in one place
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bear and I know it's a solved problem with NNTP
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singpolyma Yeah!
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loqi.me created /comment_permalink (+280) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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bear singpolyma - agree, if they bridged to pubsub then any new entry could be federated to others by listening to that topic
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bear hell, I know that back in the day of even FidoNet it was solved by a new node pulling in the starting list of topics to seed their cache
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singpolyma probably the right model would be PSHB-to-PubSub (prosody has a module for that), get that working with a nice social networking client like Movim, then layer on webmention to that
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bear which would be like a merger of NNTP and Torrent
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singpolyma bear: Yeah. I have an older friend who is constantly saying "those who don't know their history are doomed to reinvent it badly over HTTP"
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bear singpolyma - that is what I say almost weekly
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aaronpk lol
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tantek format corollary: those who don't know their history are doomed to reinvent it as JSON(LD).
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singpolyma tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 4 karma in this channel (321 overall)
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aaronpk haha
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tantek previously: those who don't know their history are doomed to reinvent it as XML
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bear a topic would then become a dynamic article with each chat equal to a paragraph - then webmention and fragmention could be used
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bear well, XML I would consider old enough that it could be what should have been used by many folks - but i'm not going to fall on that conversation-sword in this generation of developers any more
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tantek previously previously (especially in gov/edu circles) those who don't know their history are doomed to reinvent it as SGML
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aaronpk wonders what comes after JSON
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tantek aaronpk, something that does a better job with i18n string support
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tantek because all the name-map crap is a total hack
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singpolyma aaronpk: something binary. full circle, baby ;)
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tantek and makes it so much more work that anything other than monodirection text is diminished
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tantek singpolyma: already there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAssembly
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Loqi WebAssembly
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singpolyma oh, right :P
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tantek which BTW shipped on by default in FF52 last week!
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bear I think i'm going to start calling WebAssembly a trigger word and having my computer just reboot when it appears
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tantek lololol
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tantek but bear, the devtools now have a disassembler! you gotta love that
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singpolyma bear: just wait until we have a JVM compiled to webassembly so you can run stuff in a sandbox!
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bear NOOOO MAKE IT STAHP
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singpolyma :D
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tantek like disassembly into a text format you can then *write* and assemble, if you were missing writing assembly by hand ;)
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bear so I can have my XML loving JVM stuff all inside of a browser
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bear haha - that's it - i'm going to start a bespoke hand assembly shop
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singpolyma bear: "Heirloom Grade Assembly"
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tantek bear++
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Loqi bear has 14 karma in this channel (181 overall)
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bear I think I still have some books from the 80's in my basement that I can mine for months
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tantek bear, that's not a bad business model, given how much really slow JS there is out there, and site will be looking for JSEO
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tantek sites*
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bear yea, I was mostly joking - but in reality if will soon be just like nodejs --> reactjs path
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cweiske aaronpk, ask
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Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour ago: can I ask you a few questions about shpub when you get a chance?
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aaronpk waves
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aaronpk you saw my comment on github, we can keep that conversation thread there
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aaronpk now that I've finished the client test suite, do you think you could run through the tests to verify your implementation report?
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aaronpk (the W3C group voted today to request the Micropub PR transition only after two or more reports are verified against the test suite)
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cweiske sure, but not today
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aaronpk no problem
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www.boffosocko.com edited /ownCloud (+367) "fork to NextCloud; applications" (view diff)
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tantek welcome back barpthewire
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www.boffosocko.com created /Nextcloud (+667) "basic definition; applications; see also" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Nextcloud_News (+70) "see also links" (view diff)
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martymcguire[m] aaronpk: just submitted an updated implementation report for screech from running through micropub.rocks client tests. should i include a link in there to the micropub.rocks permalink?
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tantek martymcquire - any changes in the results?
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martymcguire[m] aaronpk: ah, nvm, looks like that URL doesn't show anything to folks that aren't me (https://micropub.rocks/client/B6NUmVpmoH7k8tlz)
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martymcguire[m] tantek: no real functionality changes, but the report format changed a bit and now it is verified with tests. :}
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aaronpk Thanks!
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martymcguire[m] i've hit a point where, because i am working on two micropub clients with common server-side python functionality, i am trying to refactor into a library before adding more features. i should probably hold off on that and pass more client tests instead. :}
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martymcguire[m] aaronpk: another question about working through the tests - there are tests for creating posts in both form-encoded and JSON format. is there a reason that a client would pass both of these tests?
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bear IMO it should do both as being a client you don't know what the endpoint will accept
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aaronpk You don't need to pass both if you have a reason to do one or the other only
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aaronpk but keep in mind that some servers may only support form encoded "simple" posts
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aaronpk ive been making Quill use form encoded for simple things and then upgrading to JSON requests when they use fancier features
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martymcguire[m] is it goofy to ask the server what it supports? my reading of the spec suggests that a rule of thumb is "form encode until you want to do something that requires JSON"
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aaronpk That's what I've been doing.
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bear IIRC that is why my client stuff does also
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martymcguire[m] that brings me back to my confusion on the "200: Create an h-entry post (JSON)" vs "100: Create an h-entry post (form-encoded)"
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martymcguire[m] following the "use form-encoding until you can't", my client would never do the 200 test without me telling it to, artificially
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aaronpk That's fine
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aaronpk you don't have to pass all the tests
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martymcguire[m] ok, cool. i will not let those unchecked boxes stress me out. :}
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aaronpk Hm yes checkboxes are powerful
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ben_thatmustbeme i cannot get an access token parsed correctly
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ben_thatmustbeme because my code is expecting url encoding and its looks like i'm getting back json encoding http://indieweb.org/token-endpoint#Verifying_an_Access_Token
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ben_thatmustbeme also it won't login if you give it a scope of post
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ben_thatmustbeme which is annoying
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aaronpk I only implemented JSON responses for its token endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme probably something i should be expecting always possible then
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ben_thatmustbeme should probably note that in that wiki page that it is allowed
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't see any comment of that
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aaronpk Oh huh I thought it was in there
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aaronpk yes i need to update indieauth docs in general
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@eckes @sean_a_cassidy open annotations and webmentions inherited the legacy (twitter.com/_/status/841762043627745280)
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gregorlove.com edited /Bridgy (+258) "/* FAQ */ +Can Bridgy re-send a batch of webmentions?" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, interesting, aaronpk, so when i use json, i can upload media objects fine, but in form encoded mode, it get an error
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ben_thatmustbeme its sending it as
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ben_thatmustbeme photo%5B0%5D=https%3A%2F%2Fmicropub.rocks%2Fclient%2FOx5OgGCymkO6lkl5%2F700%2FRbYEGp08%2Ffile
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aaronpk try just photo=
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ben_thatmustbeme so does form encoded not let you do multiples
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ben_thatmustbeme i figured that would fix it, but it seemed odd
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aaronpk only with []
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aaronpk not [0]
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aaronpk i can't remember the conversation that came up in, but we added this to the spec to clarify: "Syntax such as foo[0] and foo[bar] is not supported"
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ben_thatmustbeme huh
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ben_thatmustbeme not totally sure how its getting that honestly, but i'll see about fixing it
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, silly php thing
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ben_thatmustbeme weird [] doesn't work either
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ben_thatmustbeme but i guess since its only 1 item, it shouldn't be doing that either
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aaronpk hm yeah, but I should relax that on the server a bit
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ben_thatmustbeme what determines 'Looks in the response for the Media Endpoint' on the tests?
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aaronpk that's self-reported
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, okay, well thats the only difference for me with inkstone
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ben_thatmustbeme that makes sense
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aaronpk oh wait, I think if you do upload something to the media endpoint it checks that off for you
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, it did not, because i definitely have it using the media-endpoint correctly
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ben_thatmustbeme and it did not
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aaronpk double checks
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aaronpk ah it's checking it off internally i just forgot to add the display
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aaronpk refresh and the checkmark should be there
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ben_thatmustbeme it isn't
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ben_thatmustbeme also, i take it back, i was able to pass some tests that i don't consider to be totally true
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aaronpk oh?
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ben_thatmustbeme specifically, i can pass the tests that allow photo by url, just by using the media-endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme but the UI does not actually allow you to enter an arbitrary url
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aaronpk the test doesn't require that the user enter an arbitrary URL
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aaronpk it's about whether the server allows a URL for the photo property
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aaronpk or rather, that the client passes a URL
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ben_thatmustbeme ah ,interesting
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aaronpk (ah I double checked and nevermind, I didn't actually finish implementing that checkbox, so it's still self-reported)
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh okay
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aaronpk yeah I don't want to dictate UI/UX stuff with the test suite, just checking protocol level stuff
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tantek what is i18n
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Loqi Internationalization (AKA internationalisation, i18n; localization, l10n.) is the process of adapting software/content to various languages https://indieweb.org/i18n
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tantek what is l10n
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Loqi Internationalization (AKA internationalisation, i18n; localization, l10n.) is the process of adapting software/content to various languages https://indieweb.org/l10n
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tantek.com edited /translations (+724) "dfn, modernize the sections a bit, stub Why, How to, See Also" (view diff)
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tantek FYI OSBridge FB event for those who use that for event tracking: https://www.facebook.com/events/433282747063465
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2017-03-14-twitter-translate-from-mistake.jpg]]""
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tantek.com edited /translations (+777) "Silo Examples, FB, Twitter, screenshot of err from Jet Villegas, permission: https://twitter.com/junglecode/status/834446306667962368" (view diff)
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