#dev 2017-04-07

2017-04-07 UTC
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tantek what is rel-subscribe?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel-subscribe" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[cleverdevil] I am thinking I may be able to implement this for my site and my reader of choice without too much difficulty...
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aaronpk that's the idea :)
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tantek rel-subscribe is an experimental rel value for linking from your home page to your subscription endpoint, and is currently prototyped by {{aaronpk}} on aaronparecki.com; try the Follow button in the right side of the footer of his home page or any permalink.
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /rel-subscribe (+288) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /follow (+20) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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aaronpk hmm, is it worth making a little web interface that provides the follow button and the follow form? to make it easier for people to do that part
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tantek like a gist? yeah
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aaronpk was thinking a service
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aaronpk i had to write a little backend code to make that work. the part that fetches your home page and looks for the rel value
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tantek more than what my linkrel php thing does?
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tantek pretty sure that same library should "just work"
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aaronpk i used code from that :)
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tantek :)
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aaronpk I will resist the urge to create a p3k service for this, and just wait to see how much work it is for people to implement themselves
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: confused about the placeholder url bit
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aaronpk that gets replaced with the URL of the feed you're subscribing to
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KartikPrabhu right, but why require some random placeholder in the rel markup?
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aaronpk so that the subscriber's site can choose the query string parameter name
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu so I can't choose example.com as placeholder I have to say "{url}" ?
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aaronpk wait what
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aaronpk this "follow" page will find your rel value, and replace the string "{url}" with my URL that you want to subscribe to
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aaronpk so by the time you're redirected to your reader, the URL is like https://reader.example.com/subscribe?url=https://aaronparecki.com/
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KartikPrabhu yeah that is what I meant, I need to have the exact string "{url}" in my rel-subscribe yes?
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aaronpk correct, it's just a placeholder
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KartikPrabhu why not "standardise" the query parameter?
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aaronpk because i don't think i can convince everyone to use the same name
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aaronpk for example, woodwind uses "origin"
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aaronpk https://woodwind.xyz/subscribe?origin={url}
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KartikPrabhu weird!
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aaronpk also it's actually easier to string replace {url} vs actually parse the URL and append a query string parameter
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KartikPrabhu this placeholder thing seems "wrong" to put inside you HTML
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aaronpk since the rel URL might also have a query string already
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tantek aaronpk, or just make people not use query strings ;)
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aaronpk i was trying to put as few restrictions on other peoples websites as possible
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KartikPrabhu right, the rel-sibscribe being simply "http://reader.example.com/subscribe" sounds more appropriate
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aaronpk the wordpress micropub endpoint has a query string for example. i'd hate to just arbitrarily make that not allowed.
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KartikPrabhu does appending a query string not work?
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miklb well that was fun. Seems like in WP you have to preserve the id & name for inputs when you are customizing the form, otherwise it won't submit
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KartikPrabhu but yeah everyone would have to agree on the query parameter
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tantek you mean like webmention source and target?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes
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tantek but that's a POST I suppose
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KartikPrabhu right
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tantek or is it
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GWG aaronpk: The Webmention plugin used to and doesn't anymore unless you have permalinks off. Micropub could do that
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tantek (yeah it is :) )
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aaronpk oh, one argument for having the rel value be the base URL and hardcoding this parameter name is to be able to add additional parameters for extensions. things like a redirect_uri, or if we need a CSRF "state" parameter or something
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KartikPrabhu can't "follow" be handled like a webmention POST request?
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tantek indeed
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aaronpk not really
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KartikPrabhu you make a POST to "http://reader.example.com/subscribe" with a standard name for the url to follow like "source"
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aaronpk all sorts of cross-domain CSRF issues if you allow my site to post to your subscription endpoint
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KartikPrabhu aah!
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aaronpk what would stop someone from spamming that endpoint with post requests
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tantek sounds like a good FAQ to start :)
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KartikPrabhu don't we do that with webmention though?
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aaronpk the redirect here is important because it gives you the user a chance to preview the follow request, and you get to use your own authentication mechanism at your reader
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aaronpk webmention has a dialback verification step where the source URL is checked
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KartikPrabhu so does this where the software at reader.example.com asks you to verify that you want to subscribe
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aaronpk right, which is why you can't do it with a post request
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KartikPrabhu oh I understand now
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KartikPrabhu weird, I still don't like the placeholder but <shrug>
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tantek aaronpk, any other protocols do this placeholder sort of thing with rel?
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aaronpk I do see the argument. i suppose it's kind of strange to have a rel value that isn't actually a URL
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tantek yeah
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aaronpk oh, the ostatus version uses an attribute "template" instead of "href"
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aaronpk (this is just a simplified version of the ostatus subscribe thing which i still can't find docs on)
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tantek heh
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KartikPrabhu what is follow?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/follow
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aaronpk the rel value they use is "http://ostatus.org/schema/1.0/subscribe" but that URL has never had content on it
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aaronpk i still don't understand why people use URLs for rel values and then don't put docs there!
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tantek indeed, I think we discussed that yesterday and I pointed out that was a good example of the fragility inherent in using URLs for propery names (i.e. the primary assumption that RDF is built on)
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tantek s/propery/property
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aaronpk like, if you insist on using a URL, at least use it as an opportunity for inline documentation!
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aaronpk i got google to do that for one of the OAuth 2 rel values
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aaronpk oh heh they used a URL on oauth.net for that
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aaronpk grant_type=http://oauth.net/grant_type/device/1.0
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tantek yeah I wonder who admins that site lol
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aaronpk but hey click the link and at least it says what it is
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aaronpk so, either i should change href to template, or we should hardcode the query parameter name
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aaronpk i don't know how to do template with a Link HTTP header, so...
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tantek hmm yeah
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KartikPrabhu I don't mind hard-coded parameter names in some sort of "standard"
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aaronpk yeah i guess that is pretty normal
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KartikPrabhu i'd go for "source" or "subscribe-to"
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tantek I'd not re-use source since webmention uses it
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tantek consider this a global flat set of vocabulary
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tantek you know, kinda like natural language is
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aaronpk "subscribe-to" is pretty descriptive
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tantek it makes it more usable for humans (devs a humans too)
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KartikPrabhu are hyphens allowed in query parameter?
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aaronpk yeah
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KartikPrabhu then "subscribe-to" sounds nice
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aaronpk tho i think somewhat more common is underscores
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KartikPrabhu that also works
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aaronpk or just "subscribe" to avoid the issue
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aaronpk see picking names is hard
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tantek no underscores noooooooo
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aaronpk hahaha
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Loqi ahahahaha
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KartikPrabhu "subscribe" isn't as descriptive
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KartikPrabhu which is also why I made "original-of" and not "original"
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tantek "follow"
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tantek ducks
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aaronpk follow isn't bad
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tantek oops
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[chrisaldrich] I like this idea, particularly the ability to micropub a potential follow post. How does/could it work alongside of something like https://www.subtome.com?
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aaronpk it's a very different approach from SubToMe, but accomplishes the same goal
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[chrisaldrich] I think in an indieweb world of a dozen or more post types that one should help the reader find/subscribe to one or more of one's available feeds. (i.e. photos, locations, notes, articles, everything......). I don't presume that everyone will want my firehose.
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aaronpk i agree! did you see my page? :)
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tantek chrisaldrich, yes, loose identification of a likely / possible problem
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tantek however, I'd say, that's kinda up to some /reader innovations that's yet to be seen
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-04-06-17-47-39.png
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tantek before we start proposing any formats/protocols
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[chrisaldrich] many readers used to do feed discovery, but some don't anymore...
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aaronpk no protocol necessary! it happens at my site before it gets to the reader
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tantek note that a /reader can automatically do post type discovery and then offer filtering by post type
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tantek without ANY work on the part of the publisehr
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tantek (besides properly marking up their existing posts as they already do)
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[chrisaldrich] noprotocol++
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Loqi noprotocol has 1 karma
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tantek aaronpk: I agree a publisher could offer different feeds, however I'm not sure that a follower knows enough at that moment in time to make that decision
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tantek it's additional cognitive load to consider such options
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tantek easier to just "follow" and filter later
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tantek split those two up
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aaronpk well i prefilled the option based on what page you clicked the "follow" button from
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tantek that's reasonable
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tantek anyway, yes, UI experiments good here
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aaronpk so if you're on my checkins page, the options are "checkins", "home page", "all posts"
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aaronpk but that's also why i like this approach because there's room for UI experiments without protocol needs
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[chrisaldrich] I remember publishers could add links in their headers for explicit feeds <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Blog Feed" href="http://example.com/feed/" /> that most RSS readers respected (or at least looked for), but the idea of post discovery is certainly much simpler.
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tantek chrisaldrich and that publisher option never resulted in a decent RSS reader UI for picking
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tantek same cognitive preload there too
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[kevinmarks] Woodwind does that
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[chrisaldrich] It was one of my favorite parts of woodwind....
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tantek no big surprise frankly, the folks doing RSS format/protocol design back in that day didn't iterate with user tests etc. on this stuff with actual prototypes
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tantek simple follow, filter later as needed
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[chrisaldrich] But I do like the idea of taking the work out of the equation for the /reader and the person doing the subscription
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tantek nah, I suspect most users / readers will want to filters in ways unexpected by the publisher
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aaronpk ^^
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tantek it's less work for the publisher to be lazy about that up front also
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aaronpk this is all a very theoretical problem until there are more compatible readers anyway
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tantek so why do extra work as a publisher that may never get used, and worse, may just confuse / cognitively load the user ?
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: it's one of my favorite things about people with wordpress blogs -- as a reader, I know how it's built and how to make my own custom RSS feeds from their tags, categories, and formats to get exactly what I want from those sites.
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aaronpk i already had these different "channel" on my site because I *want* them on my site as you're browsing around. regardless of feed readers.
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[chrisaldrich] Fortunately this is far simpler.
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tantek I DO NOT like the idea of presuming to take work out of a theoretical equation for a /reader and person doing a subscription
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tantek "already on my site" is a good reason aaronpk
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gRegorLove reads backlog
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[chrisaldrich] reading back over it, I think my note on taking work away was poorly worded. I'm simultaneously thinking about things from both the publisher and consumer sides. Too often I find it painfully difficult to extract the content I want from many sites. No publisher or reader does remotely a good job at this presently.
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gRegorLove Using Google+ as a bug report / support system seems like an awful idea. Really easy for stuff to disappear without response, like mine: https://plus.google.com/106706862599755558649/posts/Ztq86HeDy1m
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gRegorLove I don't think comments bump them up or anything
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@John316Network https://booklaunch.io/llwroberts/thedoor - The Door is free. #IARTG #Kindleebooks #mustread #readers #Kindletouch #indieauth #IAN1pic.twitter.com/8LCenVAYrJ (twitter.com/_/status/850160168092409857)
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[eddie] like Inception level odd. However, I don’t see anything in the JSON of webmention.io to filter those posts out
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[eddie] I notice that webmention.io and bridgy is giving me a lot of “on a post that linked to http://eddiehinkle.com” with eddiehinkle.com as the target. However this is like 3rd level reference, rather than 2nd level reference. (Like, Marty replied to a post on my site. The post on my site appears to have a link to eddiehinkle.com). so I have to webmentions for Marty’s reply. One is his webmention to my post, and the second is that my post has a
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gRegorLove What is salmention?
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Loqi Salmentions are a protocol extension to Webmention to propagate comments and other interactions upstream by sending a webmention from a response to the original post when the response itself receives a response (comment, like, etc.) https://indieweb.org/salmention
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aaronpk i think that's a bridgy thing
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aaronpk bridgy adds more links in the page than strictly required. it often means you end up seeing comment threads on your posts without doing any extra work which is neat, but i think this is a side effect
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[eddie] Ahhh, gotcha. It’s strange that there isn’t some attribute to signify that. lol
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gRegorLove Your first message cut off at "my post has a" btw
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[eddie] “my post has a link to …. me?”
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[eddie] I guess I’ll just have to do a indexOf search of “on a post that linked to” in the activity.sentence ?
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aaronpk for some reason slack really encourages people to type long things
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[eddie] haha, it does
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Loqi hehe
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[eddie] because the text box just keeps expanding
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gRegorLove Haha, the poop emoji by the response avatar is funny: http://eddiehinkle.com/article/2017/03/u-sit-how-far-is-too-far.html
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] uSit: how far is too far?
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[chrisaldrich] won't consider u-Sit a real thing until aaronpk has a post type on his site for it. ?
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aaronpk Oh dear
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mblaney nice work aaronpk, though I wonder if you considered web actions and indie config when looking at how to implement follows?
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mblaney I feel like we had the follow problem sorted, but I guess that depends on how many other pieces you're prepare to implement.
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mblaney For instance, I've got a follow button on my home page at https://unicyclic.com/mal but you need a follow web action set up in indie config for that to work.
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mblaney I've also implemented a status option for indie config, so if you have that too the button gets updated to "following mal" via CORS.
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[eddie] gRegorLove: I was extremely happy when I wrote that article and realized that I had reactions set up and would be able to poop emoji myself. In my work slack we’ll do things like that all the time, where we add a random emoji reaction that emphasizes a point.
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[eddie] chrisaldrich: I agree!
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aaronpk mblaney: I did look at some other options before adding the new follow button to my site. I think there's room for experimenting with both options still, since this is still a relatively under-developed area. one thing about the web action approach I don't like is it's tied to the browser, so it won't work on my phone for instance. also despite having written some of the docs on
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/indie-config, it's still pretty confusing to me as to how it actually works.
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voxpelli is always willing to help with any such confusion ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme i wish there were a simpler way
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miklb curious how this may play into the discussion https://paul.kinlan.me/creating-a-share-button-web-component/
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: did you see mine?
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ben_thatmustbeme not yet
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ben_thatmustbeme where?
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ben_thatmustbeme scrolled up and saw the screen shot, but not seeing it on your page
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, i see
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, interesting
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voxpelli miklb: I haven't read the post yet, but imaging such a button could implement many different techniques to achieve its goal, indie-config and eg the new Chrome thing
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voxpelli Upside of components, one can hide away the details behind a simple abstraction and update it to use better implementations as standards evolve
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miklb I'm not 100% on any of it, but the approach sounded interesting
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[kevinmarks] Follow and share are a bit different
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miklb hell, I can't get bridgy to see my syndication links, can't worry too much about indie-config yet lol
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miklb indie-config isn't just follow, is it?
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voxpelli miklb: so far mostly used for replies, reposts and such
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aaronparecki.com edited /Mastodon (-11) "no plans to support Atom feeds directly" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /giving-credit (+263) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:p3k-credit-application.png]]"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /tools (+49) "new page to list indieweb tools. previous content was mostly a duplicate of [[giving-credit]], moved some text there accordingly" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Getting_Started (+148) "link to tools" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de created /Tools (+19) "redirect to /tools" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /IndieWeb (+55) "links; grammar" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /wikifying (+145) "outline for logging into wiki" (view diff)
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gRegorLove GWG: I got a source_equals_target error sending a wm to snarfed.org. It was a homepage mention. Want me to file a bug report?
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gRegorLove It was manual, but I think my curl is correct:
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gRegorLove curl -i -d source=https://gregorlove.com/2017/04/snarfed.org-can-you-help-with/ -d target=https://snarfed.org/ https://snarfed.org/wp-json/webmention/1.0/endpoint
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] @snarfed.org Can you help with this bridgy issue? http://www.oregonlive.com/roadreport/index.ssf/2017/04/morrison_bridge_can.html ;)
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gRegorLove found https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/40
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gregorlove.com edited /Craft (+71) "/* Plugins */ Internet Archive" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2017-095-hwc-sf.jpeg]]""
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tantek ^^^ so I wish I could click on that
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tantek aaronpk: any chance of improving Upload notifications so the URL of the upload is in the notification?
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tantek.com edited /events/2017-04-05-homebrew-website-club (+116) "/* Photos */ SF!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+532) "move TOC below icon, new indieweb example, note Known plugin support" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (-16) "move March to past" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Calypso (+282) "expand definition and added links" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /validators (+18) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2017-04-19-homebrew-website-club (+17) "/* US West */ No Bellingham this week" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2017-04-19-homebrew-website-club (+17) "/* Details */ No SF this week either" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Drupal (+33) "category:CMS; projects" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+233) "/* Summit */ add some more input from HWC SF" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /projects (+118) "+Drupal" (view diff)
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tantek gosh I wouldn't recommend anyone *start* with installing Drupal for their indieweb site
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: are you serious?
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tantek nor would I count it as "relatively easily install, use, maintain, depend on" for an independent. Typical Drupal installs I know are maintained by teams, or Drupal enthusiasts.
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cleverdevil.io edited /rel-subscribe (+136) (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2017-096-swarm-year-ago.png]]""
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tantek.com edited /on_this_day (+348) "/* Silo Examples */ Swarm "1 year ago" notification" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2017-097-swarm-inbox-year-ago.png]]""
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2017-097-swarm-year-ago-checkins.png]]""
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2017-097-swarm-year-ago-checking-list.png]]""
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tantek.com moved /File:2017-097-swarm-year-ago-checking-list.png to /File:2017-097-swarm-year-ago-checkins-list.png
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I've been noodling around with it recently. Earlier versions are easier to install. 7 is reasonable, though 8 is making the hurdle higher.
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[chrisaldrich] there's been some recent chatter on Twitter about better indieweb/drupal integration.
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: that's worth indicating in the project summary for context, that you personally have been experimenting with it
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aaronpk tantek: unfortunately that's from mediawiki core so there's not a lot I can do
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tantek aaronpk the whole message?
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aaronpk Yeah
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aaronpk MW sends that text in a UDP packet to Loqi
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tantek ok so it would take text processing, got it
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tantek e.g. s/uploaded "[[https://indieweb.org/wiki/ and s/" target="_blank">/https://indieweb.org/wiki/ and s/]]"//
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aaronpk i guess with last year's Loqi rewrite the only thing left sending UDP packets is MW so I could probably do that now
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tantek or something like that
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tantek.com edited /Internet_Archive (+17) "/* Trigger an Archive */ nowiki URLs inside code" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] I'm hoping to update some of the Drupal related stuff shortly as I feel like there are people out there working on related things, but who need to be "welcomed into the fold" a bit more.
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tantek.com edited /on_this_day (+311) "/* Swarm */ more screenshots of year ago UI" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Swarm (+38) "/* Features */ notifications, on this day" (view diff)
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: makes sense
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tantek ok I'm done with my silo feature documentation for the day
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[chrisaldrich] coming into the indieweb wiki and not finding much can be a turn-off to potential adopters...
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: we've had a few Drupal folks showing up occasionally to IndieWebCamps over the years. Lovely people. Always welcomed, just haven't seen much uptake / interest from that community
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tantek what is Drupal
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Loqi Drupal is a popular open source content management system https://indieweb.org/Drupal
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: ^^^ bunch of people, tools, sessions already documented there
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tantek would be interested to know what new things you are seeing
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[chrisaldrich] drupal has been tracking more to the "corporate" recently and especially with Drupal 8, but there are many on the hobby-ist side we could/should reach out to.
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tantek and that's a better page to work on improving for Drupal than the /projects page which has a lot more work to do
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tantek definitely
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[chrisaldrich] in tandem, I've been playing around with Backdrop CMS, a fork of drupal 7 that's more WordPress-ish, since last fall. It's much nicer for independents
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[chrisaldrich] they've been paring down a lot of bulk out of drupal core to make it easier to use/manage
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[chrisaldrich] and making it less dev-heavy and easier to install and use. (Their goal is to make it as easy (easier?) to set up than WordPress.)
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[chrisaldrich] That /projects page is getting unwieldy to be sure.
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tantek chrisaldrich it *was* unwieldly and I started attempting a clean-up without completely wiping it
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tantek note the header below which you added Drupal
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tantek in general I'm a bit leary of adding projects that people aren't *already* using live as their own personal web sites
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tantek because that's how it got unwieldly in the first place
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tantek too much "here's a cool project either everyone should check out or has something indieweb related but I don't use personally for anything interesting"
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tantek basically we need a place for experiment projects and see alsos that's not distracting from users who just want a simple list of options to use / install to "get on the indieweb"
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tantek and frankly Drupal is not one of those
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[chrisaldrich] I think that paring down some of the content under each of the CMSes and moving it to their direct pages may be the best way to go -- thus the reason I didn't add much underneath it.
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[chrisaldrich] I suspect it's better to have examples of people on the individual project pages is probably better than duplicating the details on /projects.
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KartikPrabhu what si projects
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KartikPrabhu what is projects?
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Loqi Here are some projects you can use to get your site on the IndieWeb, improve your IndieWeb support, or take a look at to get inspiration for your own project! https://indieweb.org/projects
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[chrisaldrich] At the same time, putting some editorial work in ranking things from possibly a /generations perspective (from 4 to 1 in decreasing order) thus making the bigger, easier to use projects at the top would be wortwhile.
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KartikPrabhu [chrisaldrich]: I don't think a "rank" is necessary. that page already has more in the "experimental" section that others
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[eddie] I second that thought, ordering from Gen 4 products down to 1 seems like a great way to list it
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KartikPrabhu there are only 8 projects that are not "experimental"
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[chrisaldrich] While it's nice to have all those experimental projects for /plurality and PR, they could each be one liners that point to other individual pages. I suspect that a gen1 user coming to this page is more likely to be interested in open source things like Drupal for their widespread use and flexibility than they might be for some of those experimental pieces which aren't available at all to them.
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tantek [chrisaldrich] you're evaluating two different things
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tantek the page above the work in progress banner
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tantek and the legacy below that
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tantek there is nothing Gen 4 today
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tantek even really Gen 3
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tantek mostly still just Gen 2 and 1
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KartikPrabhu right ^
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tantek and that's what's already listed at the top of /projects
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: you're commenting on the entire https://indieweb.org/projects#Under_Construction section which is obv by its name
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tantek as the header says, "For details about this page and the in-progress transition, see About This Page."
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tantek which links to https://indieweb.org/projects#About_This_Page
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tantek start with reading that and seeing if it makes sense to you, or if you have suggested improvements to that approach
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[chrisaldrich] I've read it all. I think my issue is that may be one of the longest and biggest pages on the wiki with a lot of duplicated material which lives elsewhere on the wiki.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: might be a good idea to move all the "Experimental" stuff to its own page /experimental-projects to clean up the initial clutter?
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tantek great! help shrink it then, not grow it
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[chrisaldrich] In some sense its crying out to be broken into smaller chunks..
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[chrisaldrich] kartikprabhu: that's exactly along the lines of what I'm thinking.
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tantek there is no one quick fix
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tantek that's why there is a documented About This Page plan with all the things we've discussed about fixing this page before
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KartikPrabhu tantek: no it isn't a fix, just a start to make editing the rest manageable
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[chrisaldrich] that and/or creating a table of projects with columns for programming languages and platform infrastructure
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: now you lost me. "columns for programming languages and platform infrastructure" have NOTHING to do with Gen 2-4
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tantek who are you solving problems for?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: maybe - but then you've created two problems
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tantek I'd rather see individual projects on /projects evaluated and moved to their proper destinations
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KartikPrabhu hopefully 2 smaller problems that are more mangeable than trying to edit that whole page at once
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tantek instead of take half the mess of /projects and create a new mess that no one will clean up
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[chrisaldrich] Two separate problems. I'm thinking about someone who comes in and knows phython and is looking for something they could help extend rather than building from scratch if they don't want/need to.
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KartikPrabhu [chrisaldrich]: that should be /python
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: "someone who comes in and knows phython " is not a good focus for /projects
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tantek ^^^ that
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KartikPrabhu what is python?
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Loqi Python is a programming language and web server runtime environment used for many IndieWeb projects https://indieweb.org/Python
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tantek anyway I'd suggest against any large global changes to the page that will take a long time
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tantek instead, go project by project, evaluate it, decide where to move it
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tantek if you want "easy" ones to deal with in that way, figure out what to do with https://indieweb.org/projects#Abandoned
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tantek and if instead you'd like to make a better resource for "someone who comes in and knows phython and is looking for something they could help extend", work on improving the /python page
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[eddie] tantek: That makes sense. Maybe move all “experimental/in development” to it’s programming language page (python, php, javascript, etc). Maybe adding a note higher at the top to the extent of “If you are looking for projects or building blocks in development for a particular programming language, you can find more here: https://indieweb.org/programming_language”
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[eddie] That would prompt people who know specific languages to be able to find projects by language, through the individual language pages
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tantek yeah that would be a good see also
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tantek right
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tantek good suggestion eddie
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KartikPrabhu language specific stuff is already in the see also
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[eddie] Actually I see now that there is a list of programming languages in the “See Also” section, it’s just unlikely anyone will get down to it
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[eddie] haha
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Loqi rofl
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[eddie] yep, so if we can clean up the page, then it looks like we’re golden
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tantek lol
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tantek big if
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gregorlove.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:Facebook-background-color-2017-04-07.png]]""
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tantek I know what you meant by prompting devs at the top
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gregorlove.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:Facebook-background-color-selected-2017-04-07.png]]""
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[chrisaldrich] I think the best guiding advice is: "The projects page is focused on providing a clear flat list of projects you can set up on your own site to join the IndieWeb."
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gregorlove.com edited /create (+401) "/* Facebook */ background color screenshots" (view diff)
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[eddie] tantek: So here’s the question if chrisalderich (yep, I just volunteered you, haha. j/k) and I were to work on de-cluttering the page, you would recommend starting at the bottom (abandoned, then other, and so on). On a per project thought of where it belongs on the Wiki. Do we need to post somewhere for feedback before we move a project? or how should that process work? Or does the diff just cover that anyone interested can reply to the change
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[chrisaldrich] as a stepping stone after something like /Getting_Started, this page just isn't as user friendly.
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: why "flat list"?
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I think I was quoting you from the top of https://indieweb.org/projects#About_This_Page
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tantek.com edited /projects (+102) "note for developers looking for specific language programming projects" (view diff)
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tantek eddie - you could ask in here or in #indieweb if anyone is using said project
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tantek also, check the project's specific page
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[eddie] :thumbsup:
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tantek you'll likely get a quick answer, e.g. maybe some historical context, or no answer, which means it's likely abandoned and be documented purely as historical (no need to put on the /projects page)
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tantek and *should be
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tantek eddie is that call-out to Developers at the top of /projects more like what you were thinking?
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[chrisaldrich] I think in most cases a lot of them could have most of the details moved to individual pages and pared down to a one liner with a link to that page where they're better documented anyway.
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tantek [chrisaldrich] I agree most of them can have stuff moved to individual pages
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tantek I would not bother with even a one-liner if they are abandoned / obsolete
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tantek anyway, I think what eddie said makes sense as a general approach to make incremental progress at least
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[eddie] yep, tantek, that’s exactly what I was thinking
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[chrisaldrich] Project pages could also have something like [[Category:python]] too so that they're not as lost (or perhaps more searchable).
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: sure, we haven't had much luck with using/maintaining MediaWiki Categories but if you think they'll help we can try
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gregorlove.com edited /custom_post_style (+85) "/* Silo Examples */ +FB bg color" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] I think for something like this they'll be more useful. Some of the battle is knowing those categories exist and how to wikify them.
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tantek [chrisaldrich] right and then you waste all your time in such meta (what categories exist, why, when should I create a new one, where, etc.)
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tantek generally why I'm skeptical about them. People on Wikipedia have time to argue about that
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[chrisaldrich] I only tend to create them for areas I'd use them for. This may be one of the few cases I'd consider it for here.
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[chrisaldrich] like you, I dont' like "make work" projects
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loqi.me created /TSS (+350) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Python (+15) "/* Projects */ woodwind" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /TSS (+289) "live UI, posts" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /projects () "(-777) reformating Abandoned; moved Storytlr content to separate page" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Storytlr (+114) "ported content from /projects" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /TSS (+130) "another article" (view diff)
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gRegorLove With Wikipedia, they also have time to put categories in a hierarchy, so their is at least a way to discover them.
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tantek.com edited /Events (-97) "drop a few venues from 04-19" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /projects () "(-1792) moved glow and social igniter content to respective pages" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I added https://indieweb.org/Category:Sessions because I thought it made sense, but haven't gone beyond that. Outside of that, I haven't seen a lot of use for categories.
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[eddie] Wow, look at chrisaldrich go! I'm headed out for the evening, but I'll look into seeing what I can do to help clean things up over the next couple of days as well
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[chrisaldrich] small steps...
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tantek chrisaldrich++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 7 karma in this channel (26 overall)
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tantek smallsteps++
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Loqi smallsteps has 1 karma in this channel (2 overall)
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[chrisaldrich] eddie if you think of it, ping me while you're working so we don't have conflicts in saving the page, which can be annoying.
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[eddie] Will do, chrisaldrich ?
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@philipbrewer Installed Webmentions https://www.philipbrewer.net/2017/04/07/installed-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/850461094535725056)
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gRegorLove GWG or anyone else: Know if the wp-json endpoint for webmention has issues with additional params, like vouch=? I got a 500 error sending a wm to someone.
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gRegorLove Then I tried using the form: https://www.philipbrewer.net/wp-json/webmention/1.0/endpoint and got a comment_duplicate response (in JSON)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Planning (+79) "+summit" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2017 (+1768) "start setting up the IndieWebSummit 2017 page" (view diff)
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tantek and the page building begins
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tantek next up, we wait for 2017.indieweb.org to be live before setting up the RSVP section :)
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+80) "moved Summit 2017 to Past planning notes" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (+78) "Summit and Berlin too!" (view diff)
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GWG Gregorlove, did you open an issue with the details? I will investigate.
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GWG I don't think it does, but I would like to test that theory.
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