#dev 2017-06-18

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GWG
Morning
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Loqi
guten morgen
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Zegnat
Hi GWG
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Zegnat
More WP work on the agenda today? Or are you about to go travelling?
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GWG
Actually, I have to go to work. I am not traveling till Thursday when I leave for the Summit, but I have to pack and such
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GWG
I may do some WP work when I return
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Zegnat
Oh, for some reason I thought you were travelling early because of the early packing talks. My mistake!
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GWG
No, I am leaving the Summit and going on a business trip afterwards, so I need to pack for a longer trip. I am packing early in case I have to buy something else
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GWG
Yesterday did have some nice progress though on Indieweb stuff
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Zegnat
I am keeping my fingers crossed that you are able to sneak mf2 into WP thanks to how h-entry on hentry works :) That sounds like the breakthrough needed!
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GWG
Zegnat: I made wordpress-uf2, which is now an Indieweb organization project as of yesterday (pfefferle transferred it), my current effort.
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Zegnat
GWG++
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Loqi
gwg has 12 karma in this channel (235 overall)
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GWG
I submitted the first update in two years to it last night, mostly refactoring. Assuming that the review is approved, I have more tweaks to try.
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Loqi
[[iterm2]] !N https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?oldid=37654&rcid=37567 * Loqi.me * (+65) prompted by [shanehudson] and dfn added by [shanehudson]
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[miklb]
I guess tying webmentions to Jetpack isn’t the worst thing in the world, but wouldn’t be my 1st choice
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sknebel
What is Jetpack?
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Loqi
Jetpack is a WordPress plugin that adds many site management tools including visitor stats, security services, performance improvements, and syndication options https://indieweb.org/Jetpack
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[miklb]
requires you to signup up at wp.com to get use, has some phone home stuff baked in
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GWG
miklb: I don't think that is exactly the idea
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[miklb]
oh, good, maybe I misread in my pre-coffee haze
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GWG
Maybe I did
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GWG
The discussion was about Jetpack Publicize working better with Indieweb stuff
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[miklb]
I mean, the existing IW plugins are there for people who don’t want to be tied to anything like that, but if wider adoption is the goal, then Jetpack would be the key
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Zegnat
You can’t install Jetpack without that? Even if you grab it from GitHub?
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[miklb]
wider adoption and advancement in the mf2 & custom comment types
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[miklb]
Zegnat, afaik, you need a wp.com authentication to fully use the plugin once installed
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[miklb]
doesn’t use it, have only installed it for a few people
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GWG
I have it on some sites
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GWG
But not on my site
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GWG
But working with it is a good path
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GWG
Being subsumed by it isn't
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[miklb]
agreed
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GWG
The issue he filed with Jetpack was local storage of POSSE URLs. Good place to start.
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GWG
If they are stored locally, I can have them displayed.
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GWG
So, where else can that work?
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GWG
That integration concept
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GWG
miklb, do you want to have a look at the PR for wordpress-uf2? I want as much input as possible as I try to get it into the org repository
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tantek
GWG, the complementary service, storage of backfeed URLs
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[miklb]
yes, I want to look at that today. I forked before you started a new branch and it was moved to indieweb org, so going to do a fresh checkout.
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GWG
tantek, I don't think Jetpack does backfeed.
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[miklb]
I’m not going to be much help with any Jetpack stuff. I have a philosophical difference of opinion of how that blurs the lines between the .org and .com of WordPress
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GWG
Neither am I, but I'd make the effort for the next generation
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[miklb]
I would too once the underlying concerns are addressed like custom comment types. My 2¢ is that if that gets traction, then I’d feel like there was some real buy-in
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tantek
GWG, just as it could do POSSE, it could do backfeed, that's the point. Same social media silo access tokens and all.
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tantek
miklb, I definitely share that concern of depending on a central service. And yet, we depend on Bridgy for much of our POSSE and backfeed in the community. Seems sensible to split that up with a wp .com service as another *option* for WordPress blogs.
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tantek
Plus it's kinder to Bridgy as well, reducing the load/risk on it
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[miklb]
big difference between bridgy and a for-profit business making decisions on how they are going to apply standards. but point taken
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tantek
miklb, also a very good distinction
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[miklb]
we’ll see how it plays out. I don’t want to get ahead of myself and be super critical and negative
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GWG
Agreed on all counts
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tantek
miklb haha unfortunately that's something I can very much relate to. 😂
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Loqi
awesome
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[miklb]
I think I still have some old wounds from the initial .com split so it’s easy to go there
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tantek
miklb, alternatively, perhaps there's an opportunity to start a clone of Bridgy that is specifically catered to be easy to setup with wordpress (.org)
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tantek
having another indie service like that (in addition to Brid.gy - the site) would also help in similar ways
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[miklb]
tantek, yes, I would much rather see some benevolent sponsor spin up a second version than build something new
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[eddie]
Not sure if this is the right channel, but wanted to follow up on some Wiki vs. Blog Posts vs. Website for IndieWeb on boarding.
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[eddie]
There was some prompting convo in #indieweb and a couple of comments in #chat but I don't want this comment to be ephemeral.
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[eddie]
As a somewhat recent (but extremely technical minded) onboarded IndieWebber, I definitely think the Wiki is a lot to face as a newbie. I remembered hopping around and kind of searching for what I wanted. It definitely wasn't a smooth onboarding
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[eddie]
I think something like having IndieWeb.org be a static website, with the wiki being the collaborative community might be an interesting direction
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[eddie]
As thoughts on the Wiki were refined they could be turned into "Blog Posts/Article Pages" on a site that introduced concepts and directed people for "'more information" to the Wiki
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[eddie]
The "website" would be aimed at all generations with the understanding that the Wiki would likely be Gen 1/2
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tantek
eddie, while sensible in theory, the problem is we not enough people contribute to even just the wiki, to be able to keep *another* site (static or otherwise) up to date
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tantek
I'd rather we incrementally keep improving the wiki to be aimed all generations
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tantek
including updating the home page, and pages it links to, accordingly
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[eddie]
Tantek: That's fair. I wonder if the info needed for onboarding would be less changing that info on the wiki?
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tantek
because devs (or gen 1/2) will always be able to search / dig for what they need
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sknebel
at least for general things, it seems like the good material is in external blogposts that don't feed back into the wiki. that's something we could try to fix
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[eddie]
sknebel: exactly
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sknebel
a bit more seperation between the dev-stuff and the "outside presentation" might be helpful, not sure how to implement it best
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sknebel
that has come up in basically every discussion mentioning the wiki I've been in
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[miklb]
I think a jekyll site hosted on github could pull in relevant parts from the wiki and allow web editing to minimize the work
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Zegnat
As sknebel reminded me, calumryan had started on a thing in Nürnberg already
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[eddie]
I think that's definitely the goal. I'm not as focused on the exact implementation but having a "nice lobby" for new people
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[eddie]
I think utilizing blog posts that we well written and "reposted" to the IndieWeb site would be a potential
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tantek
miklb, how would that be less work than just web editing the wiki directly?
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[eddie]
tantek: wikis look and feel technical
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tantek
eddie, 100% agreed with having a "nice lobby" for new people. the home page of indieweb.org should absolutely be that
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tantek
eddie, which is why we redesigned the home page accordingly last year. we can iterate with it, and other pages too
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[miklb]
tantek people are saying the wiki isn’t effective, and there are limitations. There could be jekyll scripts to automatically update the latest homebrew/IWC info, which minimizes work
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Zegnat
I think there is a general problem with wiki syntax. Some of the things I picked up this afternoon are 1) wiki pages read a lot like notebooks, 2) presentation is cramped and not reader friendly, 3) there are too many links for people to follow a clear path
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Zegnat
Especially point 3 might be hard to fix, there will be a conflict between gen1/2 users who want to be able to click for details, and gen3/4 users who only want links they are expected to click
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tantek
miklb, the events discussion is big enough on its own - if that's the biggest problem
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sknebel
which you in principle can solve on top of the wiki (just don't make pages like that), but it's pretty much wiki culture to not do that
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tantek
Zegnat, all those 1,2,3 critiques about the wiki are true because its community contributed and would be true with any tool, jekyll or otherwise
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tantek
that's the biggest misconception
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[miklb]
tantek, not biggest problem, just pointing out one way could reduce some work while improving the introduction to new users
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tantek
it's not about the tool
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[eddie]
With a Jekyll github site or something similar would allow nice UI/UX from scratch with easy CSS edits that wouldn't impact the entire wiki
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tantek
eddie, the wiki supports per page CSS edits
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tantek
this "jekyll will solve everything" is a common misconception
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tantek
it really has nothing to do with the tool
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[miklb]
Reason I suggest Jekyll is there is some prior art for Jekyll being used with IndieWeb and it can be hosted on GH with web editing.
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sknebel
it could be a wiki or wiki namespace as well
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tantek
it is about the ability and time of the community to contribute 1) good writing, 2) good design
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sknebel
IMHO the primary point is the seperation
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tantek
it has nothing to do with the tool
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[eddie]
tantek: that's fair.
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tantek
it's missing the point to think creating a new tool / site would change that
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[eddie]
I think visual separation, good writing and good design are definitely be 3 keys
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tantek
people's time and ability is people's time and ability
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[eddie]
I definitely agree the tool itself is less important
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tantek
that's the key to be worked on
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tantek
not just "a tool". that's a distraction
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[miklb]
I disagree tantek. I loathe wiki syntax and editing it, thus I’m less inclined to contribute. I would contribute markdown content and help manage a jekyll site.
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sknebel
and for some with useful abilities editing the wiki is the thing they won't do
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tantek
because changing / adding a tool is easy. changin community work is hard
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tantek
miklb, the markdown vs wiki syntax thing is a bit a of wash
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sknebel
several people have told me that they won't work with the wiki unless absolutely required
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tantek
both are content editing barriers
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[eddie]
I agree with miklb: I would be much more inclined to help convert wiki info to nicely formatted articles than edit and update wiki. Just experience and comfort ability
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tantek
some like one more than the other, it really makes very little difference
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[miklb]
a wash for who? I just said I loathe wiki syntax and editing wiki pages
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[miklb]
No one is suggesting replacing the wiki
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tantek
and again, focusing on syntax misses the key problems
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tantek
limited time and ability for the community to contribute content & design
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[eddie]
syntax impacts participation
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tantek
that is the key
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tantek
eddie, both ways. and many don't care for markdown
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[eddie]
If you leave the wiki you keep the existing base
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[miklb]
but if you are forcing people to use mediawiki, which is what you are suggesting, you are eliminating willing participants, how does that help?
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tantek
also, the fundamental problem is splitting across two sites will *dilute* that limited time and ability
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tantek
likely making both worse
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[eddie]
But by adding a different approach for the "lobby" you could get new blood like miklb and I potentially adding to it
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[miklb]
or doubling the contributions
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[eddie]
miklb++
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Loqi
miklb has 4 karma in this channel (34 overall)
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tantek
"help convert wiki info to nicely formatted articles " <-- you can already do this by starting a new wiki page accordingly
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[eddie]
My thoughts exactly
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[eddie]
except Wiki is very much out of my comfort zone
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[miklb]
tantek, which part of us saying we are not inclined to do that isn’t resonating?
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tantek
miklb if it really is about the syntax you can literally write wiki pages in plain text
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tantek
and others will help format them
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tantek
you can start new wiki pages from scratch in plain text
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[miklb]
OK, this isn’t a hill I want to die on. I know from last year tantek is diametrically opposed to anything other than a wiki, so I’ve shared my thoughts and will let it rest
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schmarty
one thing that trips me up when i want to put things on the wiki is i often don't have a clear idea of where to put something.
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tantek
I say mediawiki vs markdown syntax is a wash because Wikipedia has a massive # of (mostly non-dev) contributors worldwide, while github (primary use of markdown) also has a massive # of (mostly dev) contributors worldwide
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tantek
schmarty, you can always put something as a sub-page under your User: page to capture / develop it
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tantek
and when it feels like a good enough "draft" to you, ask if you're not sure, someone else will likely have an idea
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[miklb]
who are these “someones”?
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tantek
miklb, some people like to write content, some design, some organize
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tantek
here in the community, people all contribute different expertise
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tantek
according to their ability and time
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schmarty
tantek: that is a good idea. i wonder if that process is documented on the wiki... :}
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tantek
miklb what I'm not convinced of is how a *second* site will help (and not hurt!)
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tantek
schmarty - good q, I think gRegorLove has been doing it by example
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tantek
but it should go on /wikify
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tantek
what is wikify?
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Loqi
wikifying is the practice of putting stuff on the wiki, or something in particular on the wiki https://indieweb.org/wikify
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tantek
schmarty can you rephrase that (where to put it) as a question and add to /wikify#FAQ ?
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[miklb]
it will help because it will be more accessible to onboarding for one. And if done smartly, it wouldn’t be so much a second site but a more accessible access point to the content on the wiki.
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schmarty
reading through /wikify now
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[miklb]
Then less effort could be put into “styling” wiki content, and it be used for capturing ideas/data and then presented in more accessible way. Also think of it this way, you could download the jekyll site and offline docs!
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tantek
miklb initial setup is not the problem. maintenance and updating over *years* is the problem.
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tantek
lots of static sites start that way, nearly none of them are actually maintained
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tantek
in practice
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tantek
optimizing for minimize upkeep costs / time etc. is far more important than upfront static prettiness
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[miklb]
but if the static site is just an extension of the wiki, with willing contributors now, what is the real harm?
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tantek
because that rarely ages well
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sknebel
one argument for second namespace is that making easier to understand variants of sites quite often involves hiding tons of existing content - so you either create parallel pages for new stuff (with discovery issues), or you move existing content "out of the way", which makes that harder to reach and means messing with stuff other people did. and potentially decreaes usabiltiy for gen1
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tantek
sknebel, we can already do that, starting from the home page, and as I said, there's already quite a lot of agreement to do so with it
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schmarty
after a skim, i think /wikify does a really great job of capturing the behaviors i've seen re: making new pages, refining pages to have more and clearer content, and improving their accessibility (in terms of short/clear high level definitions before deep technical talk)
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tantek
the problem with adding any number of namespaces is that it doubles, triples, etc. the very problem schmarty brought up
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tantek
"where do I put something?"
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tantek
with a new site, that makes it worse
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tantek
and means both are less maintained
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tantek
so everything suffers - that's the real harm
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schmarty
i have noticed some other behaviors that might be worth capturing on /wikify recently
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tantek
schmarty - go for it!
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schmarty
for example, the reorganization of /micropub
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schmarty
and attempts to update /timeline
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tantek
schmarty - indeed, though both of those are very special purpose. to be clear, still worth documenting on /wikify (perhaps as "special kinds of pages"?)
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schmarty
i am not sure how to capture it because it is something i have only witnessed a couple of times.
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tantek
schmarty, add a "Exceptional Pages" heading and go for it
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tantek
or even "Special Case Pages"
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tantek
I'll leave the microcopy up to your preference
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tantek
but that at least gives you a place to capture what you've observed
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tantek
^^^ miklb this is an example, one person wants to contribute content, has time to do so, another can help with the "where", who has time / ideas on organization but not for adding more content (right now).
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schmarty
i wonder if it will always be special case. i almost think of it like refactoring something that worked for gen1 to make it more accessible for later gens.
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tantek
with a wiki, it's a little back/forth in chat like that and that's it
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tantek
no issues / push / pull etc.
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tantek
schmarty, it can start as special case, until patterns emerge
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schmarty
there's a lot to re-read and capture so i think i will start by documenting this in a sub-page of my user-page and test out that flow :D
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tantek
and then those patterns can be documented
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[miklb]
horse and buggies were considered easy and popular at one point too
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schmarty
[miklb]: i am not clear on how the analogy maps to this case
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[miklb]
schmarty, tantek’s argument “no issues/ push /pull/ etc”
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tantek
schmarty ok I'll start the subsection :)
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[miklb]
https://jekyllrb.com/docs/home/ <- is all in a github repo
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[miklb]
note the “improve this page” link
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Zegnat
tantek, where is this magical CSS-per-page you mentioned?
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tantek
Zegnat, see /Main_Page for an example
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tantek
in short, you can always add divs with inline style attrs
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schmarty
[miklb]: haha, i don't feel like it is a fair analogy to say horse+buggy : gas-powered automobile :: wiki+irc : github repo.
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Loqi
hehe
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tantek
I believe you can even add a full style sheet with <style> if necessary
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Zegnat
I’ll have a test with <style>. If we want to have some stylistic difference between “this is an informative article” and “this is a wiki page” overloading everything with inline style attributes would be horrible syntax.
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[miklb]
well, I’d be up for helping build a proof of concept of a static site from wiki content. Then would be less discussion of hypotheticals.
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tantek
miklb, prototypes / proof of concepts are always helpful for a more well informed discussion
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tantek
then we can move on from initial setup design / debates to the harder problem(s) of upkeep and maintenance
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tantek
I believe the current home page came from one such prototype which was then re-implemented on the wiki
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Zegnat
[miklb], calumryan started a thing in Nürnberg that might be of interest: https://github.com/calumryan/indieweb (also https://calumryan.github.io/indieweb/ )
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Loqi
[calumryan] indieweb: All IndieWeb related stuff and source code for Introducing the IndieWeb guides
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[miklb]
I certainly would want to avoid bikeshed discussions at this stage
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Zegnat
[eddie], that project might be of interest to you too ^^
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Zegnat
I think calum demod it too, so his thoughts should be available on YouTube from the stream. Demos haven’t been written on the wiki for Nürnberg :(
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[miklb]
oh, yeah, that’s exactly what I’m talking about
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tantek
similarly, that's why indiewebify.me is a separte site - so perhaps that's another example to look at in that regard
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tantek
calumryan's thing is a great example of something that we could use to simplify the home page as a whole!
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[miklb]
and I truly think that with _data files and some feed/json-fu the upcoming page could be automated from wiki data
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tantek
miklb - the upcoming / event problem is definitely a known (and very specific problem)
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tantek
(especially for those of us that do a lot / most of the manual editing :/ )
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37655&oldid=36401&rcid=37568 * Tantek.com * (+1525) Common Page Structure, Special Case Pages with a couple of examples
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[miklb]
wouldn’t it be nice to be freed from all of that work so could focus on other parts of the wiki every week?
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tantek
schmarty: here you go - https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Special_Case_Pages feel free to expand with your thoughts!
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tantek
miklb yes of course! but not if it makes the bottlenecks / burdens worse
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schmarty
haha, thanks, tantek! that was very fast.
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schmarty
for comparison, i was also working on a version of that content and had made it about as far as "Webmention". :}
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tantek
miklb, Zegnat in addition see and add to https://indieweb.org/2017/Leaders#Site_Refresh opinions of how we could make a home page that's more accessible to all
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tantek
schmarty - like I said different focus/ability/time :)
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[eddie]
Zegnat I'll take a look at that project
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schmarty
tantek: i also tend spend a lot of time re-reading other pages to try and match style/tone/etc. with more practice i'd probably need to do less of that.
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[eddie]
miklb: let me know, I would be interested in assisting with any prototyping
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schmarty
i will admit to getting anxiety about "messing up" the wiki :}
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[miklb]
I’ll want to touch base with calumryan, so as to not duplicate work. I have a mf2 ready jekyll theme that’s pretty generic that I was going to start with, but will look closer at his work 1st.
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[eddie]
Sounds good. I definitely want to look more at that
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Zegnat
Calum is turning up for Leaders Summit, so I assume you would also be able to touch base with him during IWS. If he doesn’t show up on IRC earlier than that
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tantek
schmarty, be bold (as they say on Wikipedia)
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[kevinmarks]
Looking at updating and clarifying indiewebify.me seems like a productive approach
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tantek
kevinmarks, agreed
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tantek
I like the design ideas that calumryan is pursuing too: https://calumryan.github.io/indieweb/
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[kevinmarks]
The other thing to think about is better tools for wiki editing - the way that loqi makes page creation and see also easier helps a lot
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tantek
so true
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[miklb]
for me the wiki editor feels like when I accidentally get put into vim at the command line.
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[kevinmarks]
Maybe there are ways to ease contribution and organising that would help miklb
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[kevinmarks]
There is a richer mediawiki editor, and some other tools.
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Zegnat
I think sknebel has ideas there. One of the reasons he worked on getting a bot logged in to the wiki
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tantek
kevinmarks, "ease contribution" - I still think nothing compares to Wikipedia in terms of evidence of broad access to contribution. open to hearing other examples
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[kevinmarks]
Maybe a micropub to new wiki subsection shim would work for certain kinds of pages
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tantek
and organizing / UX / IA is always going to be harder
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tantek
just look at how much process Wikipedia has had to develop for page / section organizing
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[miklb]
but doesn’t wikipedia have an army of super zealous people who edit & format all day long?
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tantek
"organizing" content is a fundamentally harder problem than contributing
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tantek
miklb how do you think they grew that? that's the point, they're the biggest example of that
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[kevinmarks]
Wikipedia also has an army of Bots editing it
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tantek
kevinmarks that came later
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Zegnat
[miklb], poke the right people here and you have your own formatting army 😉
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37656&oldid=37655&rcid=37569 * Martymcgui.re * (+644) /* Special Case Pages */ add cross-generation pages
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tantek
Zegnat, great rephrasing of "just add plain text and someone will help format it" :)
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[miklb]
Zegnat, as long as this is what I see when I go to edit a page, I won’t be contributing much https://cdn.miklb.com/Editing_site-deaths_section_-_IndieWeb_2017-06-18_12-22-24.png
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tantek
miklb - how is that any different than markdown syntax except one tribe vs another?
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[kevinmarks]
Site deaths is a good example of a page that could have a simpler UI to add examples
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schmarty
tantek: i think i captured what i was thinking re: organizing wiki content to be friendly to later generations - https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Cross-Generation_Pages
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tantek
kevinmarks, simpler than a nested list?
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tantek
suggestions welcome if you can improve on that
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[chrisaldrich]
Someone's linked this conversation to the /wiki page right? (I'm on my cell atm or I would.)
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tantek
(every page "could" have a simpler UI to add examples, that's not a novel observation, frankly) concrete suggestions welcome
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Zegnat
We could do something like the event page does with the one-day-event template. Abstract the bullet point most to just fixed data that needs filling.
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Zegnat
But that is a dangerous precedent. Soon you'll have revised for everything
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[kevinmarks]
A loqi syntax for adding a new site death link perhaps, or a micropub endpoint for site deaths.
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Loqi
a loqi syntax for adding a new site death link perhaps
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tantek
Zegnat, if you can determine patterns for site-death examples, definitely welcome! start with documenting the pattern: https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Historical_Pages
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tantek
frankly that's the harder part. creating a tool/template for those is (relatively) easier in comparison.
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[kevinmarks]
I don't think there is a slippery slope problem, more an extra tools opportunity
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[miklb]
tantek is has nothing to do with markdown, it is just not readable to me and feels inaccessible. Compared to say, something like this https://github.com/jekyll/jekyll/edit/master/docs/_docs/index.md
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[kevinmarks]
Loqi is less keen on micropub
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schmarty
ooh, good link, [chrisaldrich] !
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tantek
miklb it is exactly to do with markdown - the common example is how ugly / unreadable markdown link syntax is
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schmarty
https://indieweb.org/wiki has some great examples of itches and requirements
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[chrisaldrich]
I've tinkered with templates a bit and those are usually helpful.
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[chrisaldrich]
Things like template:citation which simple but help formatting and suggest capturing more data (like archived versions of articles) of course embedding those examples in relevant pages is key too.
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Zegnat
Brb doing a pizza run. Will keep reading on phone
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tantek
thanks schmarty !
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[miklb]
tantek yes, because ‘’'[[delicious|del.icio.us]]‘’' is so much clearer than (delicious)[del.icio.us]
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[miklb]
kevinmarks it could allow anyone to edit.
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tantek
miklb, ironically, even just the marginal use of *fewer* punctuation chars makes it easier yes
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schmarty
tries to resist correcting [miklb]'s markdown
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tantek
markdown links are always which go first? parens or brackets?
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[miklb]
heh, yes
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tantek
wow wait did you just illustrate that problem? i don't even know md well enough to see such problems
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tantek
just know that the ambiguity is so bad as to be inaccessible
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[kevinmarks]
I just write html links as I know that syntax
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tantek
miklb, point is that Wikipedia is proof that mediawiki syntax is *better* at "allow anyone to edit" than markdown
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[miklb]
well, glad to know to I’m wrong and that mediawiki is the one true way™
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tantek
though it's marginally better.
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tantek
hence the point about being more of a tribal debate than anything
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[miklb]
just know **I think** the mediawiki editor sucks and makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable editing it.
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schmarty
any kind of markup system has a learning curve and needs supporting tools around it.
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schmarty
i think my experience would be improved if our editing page had a more obvious "Formatting Help" link.
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[kevinmarks]
This is why we have had wiki syntax wars forever. We're down to about 2 now.
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schmarty
(the Editing Help link appears on the edit page. it has a link to the Formatting Help page at the bottom in its See Also section)
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[kevinmarks]
Remember when we had moinmoin and mediawiki wikis?
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[miklb]
I’m not talking about syntax, I’m talking about the editor itself for the record.
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[eddie]
that is true, markup systems will never be supported for all people. I think the biggest issue from the origin of the discussion isn't as much about the language behind the editing as much as the difficulty at editing the wiki UX/IA. I think as much as we could improve the text, even a clearer user flow would help new users like when I first joined
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[chrisaldrich]
I would suggest to people who have formatting or templating issues to completely ignore them. The harder problem is usually having people spend the time and write the content.
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Zegnat
I thought we were down to Creole everywhere [kevinmarks], just one 😉
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[eddie]
You just end up clicking around and it's like wondering in a forest without a path
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[chrisaldrich]
I'd suggest that people just write what they can and others will come along to "pretty" it up...
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[miklb]
eddie totally that too.
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[chrisaldrich]
I know that there are several who use Loqi's Thursday newsletter reminders to quickly double check formatting pieces of the puzzle.
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schmarty
i think [eddie] is hitting on one of my big issues with the wiki - it's easy to get lost in the maze of pages.
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tantek
chrisaldrich++ thanks for making the point about "harder problem is usually having people spend the time and write the content" exactly
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Loqi
chrisaldrich has 8 karma in this channel (34 overall)
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schmarty
and that's what i tried (badly) to capture on /wikify - that sometimes the wiki needs passes to identify related pages, reorganize them, and signpost things
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tantek
schmarty - like I said, adding content is easier than organizing it, hence mazes are an inevitable result. curation & gardening is a difficult skill and only comes with practice
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tantek
what's worse than a maze though, is a dead out-of-date static site
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tantek
with zero updates
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tantek
tons of "pretty" sites I could point to that have that flaw
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tantek
appearing dead = worse than maze
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tantek
pretty but dead statues, or a wild garden, which do you prefer?
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[miklb]
talk about my analogy… 😉
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Zegnat
For people looking for static info about what a project is that might not be true tantek. They don't dare enter the maze but would study the museum
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tantek
blog posts are better for dated static pretty summaries
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tantek
at least that way they are up front about being dated / static
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tantek
with published time etc. instead of a "static" page that implies recency
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[chrisaldrich]
I wasn't a wiki fan 2 years ago (and still aren't, so I can comiserate with miklb), but I've gotten slightly better over time. Wikis are like democracy, it's the worst form of government except for all the rest...
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schmarty
i think a lot of work on putting up a new site would go into organization. i'd be happy to support somebody who wants to do the organizational work by wikifying it for them.
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[eddie]
one of the main thoughts that I have from this conversation is that while there is a lot of talk about not being monocultural, it does seem that there is a very strong mono-cultural bias to a wiki.
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[chrisaldrich]
Personally, I've gotten better at it all by watching how gRegorLove comes in and cleans up all my mess.
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[chrisaldrich]
gRegorLove++
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Loqi
gregorlove has 25 karma in this channel (147 overall)
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tantek
eddie, you could say the same about IRC, though perhaps less so with the Slack bridge
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[eddie]
Correct, the slack bridge is exactly the chat analogy to my thoughts on web presence
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tantek
and similarly, less so about the wiki UI, since Loqi has been incrementally enhanced to allow more and more simple wiki edits
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schmarty
[eddie]: i think of it as centralization rather than monoculture. ;}
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[eddie]
I wouldn't be here if it was IRC
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[eddie]
It's not a comfortable environment for me in IRC
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tantek
and thus yes, it's definitely something we can improve
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Zegnat
The chat also still has a web bridge. The entire afternoons chat was coming from a browser
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tantek
eddie, but imagine how much worse it would be if IRC / Slack both existed but were splintered
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tantek
diverging communities
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Zegnat
We just often forget the web bridge
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[miklb]
who is suggesting splintering a static site from teh wiki?
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[eddie]
That is a fair worry. It just didn't feel like a discussion
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[eddie]
It felt like a wall
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tantek
lots of lessons in how the IRC -> IRC web log then IRC <-> web UI then IRC <-> Slack bridge were developed
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[chrisaldrich]
Many has been the day that I used that poor web bridge, which I'm sure is a primary point of entry for gen2+
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tantek
miklb, the default, since limitation of time and energy, is that a second (static or otherwise) site = splintering and things getting out of date
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tantek
see indiewebify.me for an example that has had difficulty being kept up to date
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tantek
and that's on github - feel free to prove how easy it is to update by contributing there!
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[miklb]
see to me, static doesn’t mean that a feed couldn’t be used to update the content
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tantek
it's not a matter of "couldn't be" it's that to do anything like that requires energy, to design, setup, and maintain
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[miklb]
and provide a gateway for people to contribute via markdown/GH that could be easily migrated to wiki. A bridge if you like
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tantek
in practice that ongoing energy either doesn't exist
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[miklb]
no more energy than what is expended on the wiki IMVO
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tantek
or dilutes energy towards other things. sometimes new sources can be found, but that's the exception more than the rule
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[miklb]
with a new set of contributors
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tantek
yes that is the opportunity, agreed
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[chrisaldrich]
Another option for people who don't like the wiki is to simply practice the indieweb principle of posting on their site first where they have ultimate control.
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[chrisaldrich]
Then webmention "indieweb" (for superfeedr) or dump the link into chat here. (If you CC0 that post) someone will surely add it to the wiki on your behalf.
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tantek
also "feed to update the content" <-- heck so few people here are able to even do a good /reader experience for themselves, I find it hard to believe that's any easier of a problem
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[miklb]
my final take is cool, an opportunity to grow documentation and onboarding new users, go for it. But I am also not afraid of failure
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tantek
chrisaldrich++ precisely
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tantek
chrisaldrich - could I ask you to add that as an FAQ to /wikify ? e.g. "Do I have to use the wiki and mediawiki syntax?"
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tantek
miklb, great, what do you think can be improved on indiewebify.me for starters then? use that as an example to demonstrate what you're talking about
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[chrisaldrich]
I notice that there are few who use https://news.indieweb.org/ because of the technical hurdles, but content still manages to make it to the /news page or vice versa.
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tantek
(especially as that site is very much aimed at cross-generational beginners getting started)
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[miklb]
I didn’t realize there was anything wrong with the content there, just some parsing issues, which is an apples/oranges discussion. But if you think the content is out of date, feel free to pointing me to it. Also, that’s not a jekyll site, so I can’t speak to how we could automate any sections
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Zegnat
chrisaldrich lack of the news listing might just be lack of blog posts
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[miklb]
would the newsletter value decrease if it became a place to dump wiki edits/suggested posts though?
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Zegnat
That's literally the newsletter right now
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schmarty
every week i read all those wiki edits and turn them into mouth noises
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[miklb]
I’ve never actually read the newsletter
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[miklb]
anyway, healthy discussion nonetheless. I’m off to work on a IW WP theme 🙂
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[eddie]
tantek: page level CSS is done in the Wiki by adding <style> section within the edit page block?
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37657&oldid=37656&rcid=37570 * Boffosocko.com * (+1050) Do I have to use the wiki and mediawiki syntax?
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scribless
greetings
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scribless
I hope not to interrupt.
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[chrisaldrich]
Zegnat I was thinking more about the differences in what is in the news.indieweb.org feed versus what is more easily posted at /news. Ideally those should be roughly equivalent (to the point that one could potentially be used to feed the other.)
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[chrisaldrich]
Hi scribless
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Zegnat
Honestly, I did not realise /news was a thing. Hmm
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scribless
nice to meet 'the others'
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[chrisaldrich]
Zegnat, or even more specifically /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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Zegnat
Those could be bot based pages to be honest. Post once, put everywhere
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[chrisaldrich]
We should have a word for that... could I suggest /POSSE? 😉
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Loqi
yea!
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Zegnat
Lol chrisaldrich
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[eddie]
hi scribless 👋
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sketchess
getting a flash back and remembers
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sketchess
^^so that's how irc worked
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sketchess
:)
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sketchess
I hope my presence didn't swirl up to much dust. ;)
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[eddie]
The conversations kind of died away an hour ago 🙂 I think everyone went to eat or work on projects 😉
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sketchess
well I guess I am late than
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[eddie]
lol never late, people will filter back through 😉
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sketchess
their is not much to say :)
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[eddie]
That’s the great thing about the chatroom. People come through and chat, catch up on the logs and conversations re-ignite throughout the day
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sketchess
but it was a wonderful first meet
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[eddie]
Great 🙂
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sketchess
welcome back sknebel
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sknebel
thx. regarding the mention earlier: yes, the idea behind making Kaja login to the wiki was to automate some stuff, e.g. updating references to events in many places
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sknebel
if someone has something wiki-based they want automated/an IRC shortcut for, please tell me, or add to Kaja's userpage
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sknebel
Who is Kaja?
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sketchess
I just sit here and watch for a little while, if do not mind.
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sknebel
sketchess: sure, that's what most people do most of the time ;)
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sknebel
it's been surprisingly busy today
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sketchess
hahahaha
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Loqi
rofl
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[eddie]
That’s generally what I do, sketchess
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sketchess
I probably should have warned you about me than. ;)
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sketchess
@sknebel
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sknebel
nah, activity is good
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sketchess
Sometimes I get the feeling, quiet places are getting busy when I join.
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sketchess
And die when I leave. That's somehow strange.
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sketchess
saw that with forum chats
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sketchess
maybe that's just me and my feelings *lol*
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sketchess
well past lies in the past
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sketchess
:)
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sketchess
future is more valuable
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sketchess
thanks for the help today
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sketchess
hope getting things runnig
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sketchess
I see you around. Time to prepare dinner.
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Zegnat
sknebel Kaja needs a dfn on its user page! 😉
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sknebel
dfn or p-summary?
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Zegnat
Either or
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sknebel
Who is Kaja?
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Zegnat
That did the trick
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GWG
Nothing like sitting in the dark
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[miklb]
GWG tell me more about themes being able to require plugins
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[miklb]
once you get light that is
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GWG
[miklb]: There's the library we used to use in the Indieweb plugin, TGM Plugin Activation, which was designed for that
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[miklb]
was just reading a little bit about that for automatic installation.
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[miklb]
I thought for some reason the WP theme directory wouldn’t allow that.
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GWG
It does, I believe
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GWG
But you can load a library conditionally also
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[miklb]
I would much rather require and use mf2 plugin along with the the other IW plugins
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[miklb]
could get close to a one click install with the theme requiring micropub, webmentions, semantic linkbacks, syndication links & webmentions for comments
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[miklb]
maybe not even require micropub
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GWG
We tried that.
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Zegnat
[miklb], I would treat Micropub as completely separate. If people want to use Micropub clients over the WP backend that should be their choice.
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[miklb]
Zegnat, yeah, after I typed it, realized it wasn’t really the same and required.
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[miklb]
GWG tried it with what?
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GWG
TGM Plugin Activation was in the Indieweb plugin
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GWG
But in the theme no
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[miklb]
gotcha. I’m just thinking if I now know I can require certain plugins, I don’t have to worry about writing conditionals for whether or not they exist and use the mf2 plugin for that basics of that, I can focus a little more time on ability to customize the theme.
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[miklb]
That way, someone could install the theme, not worry about what plugins they needed to be IndieWeb ready, and get started.
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[miklb]
Just another option to add to the mix.
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GWG
Give it a shot
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[miklb]
well that was a short lived thought.
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GWG
Why?
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[miklb]
I double checked with the theme review Slack channel and was told they can not require a plugin
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[miklb]
So either a theme that has to be manually be installed or no required plugins and in theme directory
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[miklb]
I can still package mf2 in the theme though
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mblaney
!tell eli_oat re: empty reader entries, you have your content in <p class="meta-data reply"> followed by an empty <div class="e-content p-name">. If you can combine the two (ie put all those classes on the same <p> or <div>) then things will work the way you want.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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eli_oat
thanks mblaney
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mblaney
no worries :-) personally I leave likes out of my feed, but of course everyone is free to do their own thing. I just don't see the difference between likes and reposts when the two are combined.
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eli_oat
that makes sense
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eli_oat
I've been toying with filtering them
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eli_oat
generally speaking I like that using my website as a single point of truth as opposed to FB, or something, limits my response types. I use the likes for the self-serving purpose of not wanting to loose a certain link
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mblaney
yes me too, but I have https://unicyclic.com/mal/likes (and the same for replies)
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mblaney
actually, looking at that now, keeping a bit more context would be nice.
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eli_oat
the direction I started to head in, but haven't completed yet, is to show everything by default, but have an optional filter for each type
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eli_oat
as a stopgap measure I have pages specific for photos and titled posts
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37660&oldid=37657&rcid=37573 * Gregorlove.com * (-26) /* Make your user page */ link directly to Special:MyPage, simplify language
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37661&oldid=37660&rcid=37574 * Gregorlove.com * (+16) /* Write down your itches */ {{main|itches}}
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gRegorLove
Good evening, indieweb. Interesting discussion today re: wikifying and onboarding
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sknebel
good morning gRegorLove
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sknebel
indeed
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gRegorLove
I don't think I have much to add beyond: yes, be bold. mistakes can easily be fixed.
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gRegorLove
Even if you don't know where something should go and start a new page, content can be merged and pages redirected
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gRegorLove
Some of us enjoy cleanup/organizing tasks, for some weird reason
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gRegorLove
o/ tantek
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37662&oldid=37661&rcid=37575 * Gregorlove.com * (-16) s/IndieWebCamp/IndieWeb/
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sknebel
gRegorLove: since you do a lot of wiki gardening, I'd be interested in your thoughts on automating some of it. I got the basics to edit the wiki programmatically working, so if you have an idea for something useful, say something
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Loqi
[[wikifying]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37663&oldid=37662&rcid=37576 * Gregorlove.com * (-12) tweak dfn "capturing information and ideas on the wiki"
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gRegorLove
sknebel: Cool. Nothing offhand, but I'll keep it in mind
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gRegorLove
What things are you planning to use it for currently?
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tantek
o/ gRegorLove
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Loqi
[[Main Page]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37665&oldid=37340&rcid=37578 * Www.svenknebel.de * (-594) /* Homebrew Website Club */ update cities, remove past
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Loqi
[[h-card]] https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37666&oldid=33468&rcid=37579 * Tantek.com * (+17) fix long out of date confusing use of hCard vs h-card
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[miklb]
so in the spirit of “can’t beat them, join them” I’m testing out using Chrome & an Atom extension to edit in my editor of choice. Also using pandoc to convert from markdown to mediawiki syntax.
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[sebsel]
!tell aaronpk Seems like my multi-photo-checkin problem is actually a OwnYourSwarm bug, because your site does not have multiple photos either! https://aaronparecki.com/2017/06/18/35/ (because of the +10 coins I suspect you posted both pictures on Swarm at the time of checkin, right?)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] We were here two years ago when they were building this bar! — with anomalily https://aaronparecki.com/2017/06/18/35/photo.jpg
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aaronpk
That's strange!
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Loqi
aaronpk: sknebel left you a message 1 day, 17 hours ago: I wrote some notes about the automatic wiki login: https://indieweb.org/non-interactive_IndieAuth#implementation_in_Kaja