schmartytantek: thanks. /link-preview#Silo_Examples covers the main FB and Twitter examples I was thinking of. i came to the same conclusion as gRegorLove - these need to appear outside of p-name.
tantekrather, xray as a way to test what link-previews result from various permalinks, to explore the question of how are sites avoiding link-preview propagation
schmartylooks like /link-preview has a somewhat outdated structure. i added my display thoughts to brainstorming. don't currently trust myself to re-org the page.
[eddie]Indigenous update for those following (aaronpk, cleverdevil, miklb and dougbeal in particular): I’ve been using the Alpha iOS build this past week and it’s been working great! I still need to add replies and work some interface improvements based on my experience thus far. I’m hoping to get some of that done this week and have it in an “Open” Beta via Test Flight before or by IWS.
[eddie]I’ll probably start on the macOS version while the iOS version is being tested. The great thing is all the classes port over, it’s just the User Interface that I have to create
[eddie]I think macOS should only take about a week to do the UI given a typical week. Obviously some are more busy than others. But I would think macOS should definitely be done within 2 weeks of the beta launch of iOS
ben_thatmustbemethis is getting annoying, trying to use indieweb/php-comments via composer, which require tantek/cassis (dev-master) which by default it doesn't like (because of min stability requirements) but i can easily fix that, butnow, apparently cassisand another laravel dependancy are both defining the function contains() and it isn't happy at all
Loqi[ascii-soup] It's a shame that PHP doesn't have static imports in the same way Java does. However, the documentation could presumably showcase both approaches? It could even say "This is preferred, but if you don't mind polluting your global namespace with functi...
GWGNo, I am leaving the Summit and going on a business trip afterwards, so I need to pack for a longer trip. I am packing early in case I have to buy something else
ZegnatI am keeping my fingers crossed that you are able to sneak mf2 into WP thanks to how h-entry on hentry works :) That sounds like the breakthrough needed!
LoqiJetpack is a WordPress plugin that adds many site management tools including visitor stats, security services, performance improvements, and syndication options https://indieweb.org/Jetpack
[miklb]I mean, the existing IW plugins are there for people who don’t want to be tied to anything like that, but if wider adoption is the goal, then Jetpack would be the key
[miklb]I’m not going to be much help with any Jetpack stuff. I have a philosophical difference of opinion of how that blurs the lines between the .org and .com of WordPress
[miklb]I would too once the underlying concerns are addressed like custom comment types. My 2¢ is that if that gets traction, then I’d feel like there was some real buy-in
tantekmiklb, I definitely share that concern of depending on a central service. And yet, we depend on Bridgy for much of our POSSE and backfeed in the community. Seems sensible to split that up with a wp .com service as another *option* for WordPress blogs.
tantekmiklb, alternatively, perhaps there's an opportunity to start a clone of Bridgy that is specifically catered to be easy to setup with wordpress (.org)
[eddie]As a somewhat recent (but extremely technical minded) onboarded IndieWebber, I definitely think the Wiki is a lot to face as a newbie. I remembered hopping around and kind of searching for what I wanted. It definitely wasn't a smooth onboarding
[eddie]I think something like having IndieWeb.org be a static website, with the wiki being the collaborative community might be an interesting direction
[eddie]As thoughts on the Wiki were refined they could be turned into "Blog Posts/Article Pages" on a site that introduced concepts and directed people for "'more information" to the Wiki
tantekeddie, while sensible in theory, the problem is we not enough people contribute to even just the wiki, to be able to keep *another* site (static or otherwise) up to date
sknebelat least for general things, it seems like the good material is in external blogposts that don't feed back into the wiki. that's something we could try to fix
[miklb]tantek people are saying the wiki isn’t effective, and there are limitations. There could be jekyll scripts to automatically update the latest homebrew/IWC info, which minimizes work
ZegnatI think there is a general problem with wiki syntax. Some of the things I picked up this afternoon are 1) wiki pages read a lot like notebooks, 2) presentation is cramped and not reader friendly, 3) there are too many links for people to follow a clear path
ZegnatEspecially point 3 might be hard to fix, there will be a conflict between gen1/2 users who want to be able to click for details, and gen3/4 users who only want links they are expected to click
[miklb]I disagree tantek. I loathe wiki syntax and editing it, thus I’m less inclined to contribute. I would contribute markdown content and help manage a jekyll site.
[eddie]I agree with miklb: I would be much more inclined to help convert wiki info to nicely formatted articles than edit and update wiki. Just experience and comfort ability
[miklb]OK, this isn’t a hill I want to die on. I know from last year tantek is diametrically opposed to anything other than a wiki, so I’ve shared my thoughts and will let it rest
tantekI say mediawiki vs markdown syntax is a wash because Wikipedia has a massive # of (mostly non-dev) contributors worldwide, while github (primary use of markdown) also has a massive # of (mostly dev) contributors worldwide
[miklb]it will help because it will be more accessible to onboarding for one. And if done smartly, it wouldn’t be so much a second site but a more accessible access point to the content on the wiki.
[miklb]Then less effort could be put into “styling” wiki content, and it be used for capturing ideas/data and then presented in more accessible way. Also think of it this way, you could download the jekyll site and offline docs!
sknebelone argument for second namespace is that making easier to understand variants of sites quite often involves hiding tons of existing content - so you either create parallel pages for new stuff (with discovery issues), or you move existing content "out of the way", which makes that harder to reach and means messing with stuff other people did. and potentially decreaes usabiltiy for gen1
schmartyafter a skim, i think /wikify does a really great job of capturing the behaviors i've seen re: making new pages, refining pages to have more and clearer content, and improving their accessibility (in terms of short/clear high level definitions before deep technical talk)
tantekschmarty - indeed, though both of those are very special purpose. to be clear, still worth documenting on /wikify (perhaps as "special kinds of pages"?)
tantek^^^ miklb this is an example, one person wants to contribute content, has time to do so, another can help with the "where", who has time / ideas on organization but not for adding more content (right now).
schmartyi wonder if it will always be special case. i almost think of it like refactoring something that worked for gen1 to make it more accessible for later gens.
ZegnatI’ll have a test with <style>. If we want to have some stylistic difference between “this is an informative article” and “this is a wiki page” overloading everything with inline style attributes would be horrible syntax.
ZegnatI think calum demod it too, so his thoughts should be available on YouTube from the stream. Demos haven’t been written on the wiki for Nürnberg :(
schmartytantek: i also tend spend a lot of time re-reading other pages to try and match style/tone/etc. with more practice i'd probably need to do less of that.
[miklb]I’ll want to touch base with calumryan, so as to not duplicate work. I have a mf2 ready jekyll theme that’s pretty generic that I was going to start with, but will look closer at his work 1st.
ZegnatCalum is turning up for Leaders Summit, so I assume you would also be able to touch base with him during IWS. If he doesn’t show up on IRC earlier than that
tantekkevinmarks, "ease contribution" - I still think nothing compares to Wikipedia in terms of evidence of broad access to contribution. open to hearing other examples
ZegnatWe could do something like the event page does with the one-day-event template. Abstract the bullet point most to just fixed data that needs filling.
[chrisaldrich]Things like template:citation which simple but help formatting and suggest capturing more data (like archived versions of articles) of course embedding those examples in relevant pages is key too.
[eddie]that is true, markup systems will never be supported for all people. I think the biggest issue from the origin of the discussion isn't as much about the language behind the editing as much as the difficulty at editing the wiki UX/IA. I think as much as we could improve the text, even a clearer user flow would help new users like when I first joined
[chrisaldrich]I would suggest to people who have formatting or templating issues to completely ignore them. The harder problem is usually having people spend the time and write the content.
schmartyand that's what i tried (badly) to capture on /wikify - that sometimes the wiki needs passes to identify related pages, reorganize them, and signpost things
tantekschmarty - like I said, adding content is easier than organizing it, hence mazes are an inevitable result. curation & gardening is a difficult skill and only comes with practice
ZegnatFor people looking for static info about what a project is that might not be true tantek. They don't dare enter the maze but would study the museum
[chrisaldrich]I wasn't a wiki fan 2 years ago (and still aren't, so I can comiserate with miklb), but I've gotten slightly better over time. Wikis are like democracy, it's the worst form of government except for all the rest...
schmartyi think a lot of work on putting up a new site would go into organization. i'd be happy to support somebody who wants to do the organizational work by wikifying it for them.
[eddie]one of the main thoughts that I have from this conversation is that while there is a lot of talk about not being monocultural, it does seem that there is a very strong mono-cultural bias to a wiki.
tantekmiklb, the default, since limitation of time and energy, is that a second (static or otherwise) site = splintering and things getting out of date
[chrisaldrich]Another option for people who don't like the wiki is to simply practice the indieweb principle of posting on their site first where they have ultimate control.
[chrisaldrich]Then webmention "indieweb" (for superfeedr) or dump the link into chat here. (If you CC0 that post) someone will surely add it to the wiki on your behalf.
tantekalso "feed to update the content" <-- heck so few people here are able to even do a good /reader experience for themselves, I find it hard to believe that's any easier of a problem
tantekmiklb, great, what do you think can be improved on indiewebify.me for starters then? use that as an example to demonstrate what you're talking about
[chrisaldrich]I notice that there are few who use https://news.indieweb.org/ because of the technical hurdles, but content still manages to make it to the /news page or vice versa.
[miklb]I didn’t realize there was anything wrong with the content there, just some parsing issues, which is an apples/oranges discussion. But if you think the content is out of date, feel free to pointing me to it. Also, that’s not a jekyll site, so I can’t speak to how we could automate any sections
[chrisaldrich]Zegnat I was thinking more about the differences in what is in the news.indieweb.org feed versus what is more easily posted at /news. Ideally those should be roughly equivalent (to the point that one could potentially be used to feed the other.)
sknebelthx. regarding the mention earlier: yes, the idea behind making Kaja login to the wiki was to automate some stuff, e.g. updating references to events in many places
[miklb]could get close to a one click install with the theme requiring micropub, webmentions, semantic linkbacks, syndication links & webmentions for comments
[miklb]gotcha. I’m just thinking if I now know I can require certain plugins, I don’t have to worry about writing conditionals for whether or not they exist and use the mf2 plugin for that basics of that, I can focus a little more time on ability to customize the theme.
@WendyandCharles ReadersGazette: BLOG Indie Author Answers by Jim Heskett http://www.thejugglingauthor.com/indieauth/ Get help writing your book #bookbloggers 94 (twitter.com/_/status/876226251983384578)
schmarty tantek: thanks. /link-preview#Silo_Examples covers the main FB and Twitter examples I was thinking of. i came to the same conclusion as gRegorLove - these need to appear outside of p-name.
tantek schmarty - perhaps add that discovery / conclusion somewhere in /link-preview#How_to ?
[eddie] Indigenous update for those following (aaronpk, cleverdevil, miklb and dougbeal in particular): I’ve been using the Alpha iOS build this past week and it’s been working great! I still need to add replies and work some interface improvements based on my experience thus far. I’m hoping to get some of that done this week and have it in an “Open” Beta via Test Flight before or by IWS.
Loqi [Marty McGuire] Thanks to our guest Jeffrey Toppe for showing us the money in this week’s We Have to Ask Podcast! https://wehavetoask.com/episodes/2017-06-13-144257/
gregorlove.com edited /Events () "(-6127) /* 2017 */ remove archived events, leaving last 3 months" (view diff)
martymcgui.re edited /User:Martymcgui.re (+831) "move around some itches, update some progress" (view diff)
ben_thatmustbeme this is getting annoying, trying to use indieweb/php-comments via composer, which require tantek/cassis (dev-master) which by default it doesn't like (because of min stability requirements) but i can easily fix that, butnow, apparently cassisand another laravel dependancy are both defining the function contains() and it isn't happy at all
sknebel one argument for second namespace is that making easier to understand variants of sites quite often involves hiding tons of existing content - so you either create parallel pages for new stuff (with discovery issues), or you move existing content "out of the way", which makes that harder to reach and means messing with stuff other people did. and potentially decreaes usabiltiy for gen1
[miklb] https://jekyllrb.com/docs/home/ <- is all in a github repo
Zegnat [miklb], calumryan started a thing in Nürnberg that might be of interest: https://github.com/calumryan/indieweb (also https://calumryan.github.io/indieweb/ )
tantek.com edited /wikifying (+1525) "Common Page Structure, Special Case Pages with a couple of examples" (view diff)
[kevinmarks] Looking at updating and clarifying indiewebify.me seems like a productive approach
[chrisaldrich] Someone's linked this conversation to the /wiki page right? (I'm on my cell atm or I would.)
boffosocko.com edited /wikifying (+1050) "Do I have to use the wiki and mediawiki syntax?" (view diff)