#dev 2017-07-03

2017-07-03 UTC
davidmead, [miklb], tantek, snarfed, [cleverdevil], cweiske and j12t joined the channel
#
jjuran
I’m trying to update my RSVP to https://2017.indieweb.org/ with a picture, but instead I’ve succeeded in removing my name.
#
Loqi
IndieWeb Summit
#
jjuran
sknebel: ^
#
Loqi
This is my RSVP yes to IndieWeb Summit 2017 -- Josh Juran
#
jjuran
I surmised that the webmention endpoint is only looking at the first h-card.
#
jjuran
However, I don’t see how to wedge an <img> into the <a> without corrupting the name property.
#
sknebel
you have the p-author inside an h-card, so the parser thinks there is an author property on the h-card, not the h-entry
[pfefferle] joined the channel
#
sknebel
where now you have "<span class="h-card">" you'd want "<span class="p-author h-card">"
pfefferle joined the channel
#
sknebel
then it correctly sees the h-card as the value of the author property
#
jjuran
Ah, that did it. Thanks!
#
jjuran
I still don’t understand the concepts, though. I know that HTML has certain containment rules (which were once enforced by a DTD), but I don’t know the semantics of microformats markup.
#
sknebel
jjuran: the basic idea is that the content of the object with the property class defines the value of a property
#
sknebel
the prefix of the property name (p-, u-, dt-) determines from which attributes of the object the value is fetched from
#
sknebel
and if it is a nested microformat (p- property), then the tag has to be a microformat as well (that's why "p-author h-card")
#
jjuran
Right, but I don’t necessarily know the relationship of the properties to their containers, how those relationships interconnect (e.g. having p-author and h-card on the same element), and what’s part of mf2 vs. what the RSVP page is doing on its own.
#
sknebel
hm, we probably should have a simple description of the various property *types* somewhere.
#
Loqi
microformats 2 prefix conventions
barpthewire joined the channel
#
Zegnat
I think I saw an issue for microformats.io saying we need a simple primer on that
#
sknebel
(oops, and I made the error above claiming that nested objects only work with p-properties, that's not true)
#
Zegnat
I find nested objects are the hardest to explain in an easy sentence :/
#
sknebel
jjuran: If you have questions, please ask! (even if its not a specific one) We're happy to help and it helps figuring out what to explain
j12t joined the channel
#
sknebel
Zegnat: didn't aaron have an mf2 session somewhere recently?
#
jjuran
Yes, a primer document would help a great deal.
#
sknebel
there is microformats.io, but that's work in progress
#
sknebel
that's something I might do on the plane tomorrow
#
sknebel
get started on something like that
#
Zegnat
Not sure. I was surprised there wasn’t one at IWS. I lead one in /2016/Brighton because I specifically noticed how there was non during /2016/Düsseldorf and people clearly had questions on hackday afterwards.
#
Zegnat
I am considering writing some ignite style 5 minute presentations for concepts like microformats, but not sure about recording them
#
sknebel
s/früm/from
#
jjuran
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-prefixes has a lot of historical discussion, which provides rationale and backstory but may not be germane to onboarding.
#
Loqi
microformats 2 prefix conventions
#
sknebel
yes, and it doesn't go into all that much detail at the top
#
Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
#
jjuran
The parsing spec actually helps a lot. :-)
#
sknebel
jjuran: good, that's why I linked it as well. its kinda needlessly complicated when its about the basics
j12t joined the channel
#
GWG
Morning
#
Loqi
rise and shine!
j12t joined the channel
#
petermolnar
is there an up-to-date, preferred way of marking up a blogroll? I'm digging through xfn, but that seems a little dated and I can't seem to find 'following' among the potential rel values
#
sknebel
petermolnar: not that I know of. people have been talking about rel=following, but AFAIK the basis of that is just some brainstorming on the mf2 wiki
#
sknebel
fights with uwsgi
#
petermolnar
is it something that I should just start using, document, and hope for adaptation?
#
petermolnar
sknebel what's the uwsgi fight about?
#
sknebel
uwsgi isn't great with error messages when it doesn't work. "just" wanted to deploy just another flask app, but I can't figure out why it doesn't work
#
Loqi
XFN Brainstorming
#
Zegnat
petermolnar, you can look at what is currently listed as examples too: http://indieweb.org/blogroll#IndieWeb_Examples
davidmead, [pfefferle], jjuran and Kaja joined the channel
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+318) "Kaja now can produce mf2-parser links"
(view diff)
Kaja and j12t joined the channel
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /Main_Page (+11) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ 2 VHWCs!"
(view diff)
j12t joined the channel
#
jonnybarnes.uk
edited /JSON_Feed (+232) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Add jonnybarnes.uk links to examples"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+123) "link to rsvps, update some prose accordingly"
(view diff)
tantek joined the channel
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /rsvp (+174) "/* Case insensitive parsing */ supported"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
created /rsvps (+3268) "start with copy/paste from /likes, move Calumryan accepting/displaying RSVPs example to here"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /rsvp () "(-669) move calumryan example to /rsvps"
(view diff)
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /rsvp (+105) "/* Case insensitive parsing */"
(view diff)
#
Zegnat
Nice catch on the example sknebel!
#
sknebel
Zegnat: it was one of the examples tantek complained about not working with webmention.io, so I had seen it on the weekend while filing webmention.io bugs
#
sknebel
which caused me to ask about it in the first place
j12t joined the channel
#
aaronpk
jjuran: were you in the intro session at IWS?
#
aaronpk
i covered microformats at the beginning of the second day
#
aaronpk
it was a pretty off-the-cuff presentation, I didn't have slides prepared or anything
#
aaronpk
but since there's video, you can watch it, and if you were there and were confused about anything i can try to clear that up in future sessions!
[jeremycherfas], [miklb], [chrisaldrich], j12t, [pfefferle] and snarfed joined the channel
#
sebsel
aaronpk I was trying to spin up my own instance of Compass, but it seems like my new auth endpoint does not play well with it (also not on your instance). It is not requesting any scopes, but if I read the code correctly, it IS asking the token endpoint for an access token. Should I give out unscoped access tokens?
#
aaronpk
quick fix is comment out that part of the code that gets an access token so it only tries to verify the auth code
#
aaronpk
tho i don't think there's any harm in issuing tokens with no scope, since that's basically a limited read-only access token
#
sebsel
okay! thanks! I'll look into it :)
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /rsvps (+256) "to do, get rsvps displays examples from /event and incorporate here"
(view diff)
#
sknebel
Tantek, while you're looking at RSVP, your thoughts on case sensitivity issue? (Bottom of brainstorming)
j12t joined the channel
#
tantek
sknebel: agreed with case-insensitive parsing of enum values like rsvp
#
tantek
can you check the h-event spec to see if that's already clear or not? and if not, can you open a new issue on h-event to fix it accordingly?
#
Zegnat
Apparently it is specified on the h-entry spec!
#
Zegnat
“"yes", "no", "maybe", "interested". Case-insensitive values, normalized to lowercase. Examples:”
#
sknebel
Him, I thought I checked that
#
tantek
well then :)
#
sknebel
So only the wiki to clarify
#
sknebel
And webmention.io to patch
#
tantek
sknebel - perhaps move the /rsvp discussion of case-insensitivity to /rsvp#FAQ and cite the spec accordingly?
#
Zegnat
I also thought I checked. I think I checked h-event and didn’t find it there at first, and forgot to check h-enrty
#
tantek
right, because p-rsvp is an h-entry property, not h-event :)
#
tantek
thanks for the correction Zegnat
#
Zegnat
I made that same mistake apparently, else I would not have files the case sensitivity issue
#
tantek
Zegnat, perhaps put a see also or other such reference from h-event to h-entry for p-rsvp so it's discoverable
[cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
Zegnat
Might be good. I believe dinner is coming up so I can’t do the wiki gardening at the moment. If nobody beats me to it, I will attend to the gardening later tonight :)
#
sknebel
Currently on mobile, will check later
#
tantek
alright I'm definitely having trouble with webmention.io and RSVP responses
#
sknebel
Some of it is the new issues I opened on the weekend, not sure if that covers all of it
#
aaronpk
thanks for that btw
#
aaronpk
nice find
#
tantek
aaronpk, looks like webmention.io is ignoring Bridgy RSVPs from FB
#
tantek.com
edited /event (+593) "/* Tantek */ add POSSE & webmentions links, second event example, separate details"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
take a look at the two issues sknebel opened, and plz file a new issue with example URLs if it's different
#
Loqi
[sknebel] #81 inconsistent handling of upper/lowercase in RSVP processing
#
tantek
checks issues
barpthewire joined the channel
#
tantek
new issue - not even listing the webmentions, nevermind rsvp parsing / showing
#
aaronpk
and you've confirmed bridgy sent them? what does bridgy say in the logs?
#
tantek
that's what I'm about to cite - bridgy saw the FB RSVPs and sent them along
#
aaronpk
you should see a status URL from webmention.io in the bridgy logs, which should tell you whether webmention.io is still processing them or if something failed
#
Loqi
it is probable
#
tantek
Sending... Sent!
#
aaronpk
this is the redirect problem again
#
aaronpk
at some point i must have changed webmention.io to redirect everything to https
#
tantek
redirect by whom? the FB Posse copy links directly to the tantek.com permalink - no redirecting there
#
aaronpk
so POST requests to are getting a 3xx response
#
tantek
ohhhh do I need to link to https webmention.io in my link rel ?
#
tantek
instead of http?
#
tantek
that shouldn't matter
#
tantek
since Bridgy is handling that discovery just fine
#
tantek
because it is sending the webmention successfully to webmentionl.io
#
aaronpk
well bridgy is sending a POST to http://webmention.io/tantek.com/webmention and the response is 3xx
#
aaronpk
and that's not actually received by the site
#
tantek
so http webmention io drops the webmention? and the sender is supposed to resend?
#
aaronpk
that's what's not super defined
#
tantek
uh oh, that really should be well defined in the spec
#
aaronpk
well it's kind of an HTTP thing
#
tantek
or at least guidance provided
#
aaronpk
browsers see 301/302 responses from a POST and then make a GET request to the new URL (what you'd expect from submitting a form)
#
tantek
so that senders / receivers know whose responsibility it is to handle what
#
aaronpk
so HTTP added 307/308 to mean "no really please re-send the POST to the new URL"
#
aaronpk
so we need two things clarified in the spec:
#
aaronpk
1) what should webmention senders do if they encounter *any* 3xx response from a webmention endpoint
#
aaronpk
2) what should webmention endpoints send if they want to redirect senders to a new webmention endpoint (like I need to do with my http -> https redirect)
#
tantek
aaronpk, agreed - sounds like two more issue to open on the Webmention spec itself
#
tantek
and then start documenting for each a. what is the theoretical "proper" behavior, b. what do implementations of each do now (and do they consider it a bug - cite a github issue)
#
Loqi
[aaronpk] #89 what should senders do when they receive a 3xx response from the webmention endpoint?
#
tantek
oh no this means that since the webmention io http -> https redirect I've lost all webmentions from Bridgy backfeed :( :( :(
#
tantek
that kinda sucks aaronpk, sorry to say
#
aaronpk
yeah :( sorry
#
aaronpk
i think i made that change on march 12
#
tantek
like it literally broke everyone that was using webmention io and didn't notice the change
#
tantek
which makes me think that that's not desirable behavior
#
aaronpk
i'm going to change it to serve the app on http again
#
tantek
(to spec)
myfreeweb joined the channel
#
Loqi
[aaronpk] #90 how should webmention servers redirect to a new URL
#
tantek
aaronpk, what would be more useful now, to leave my site "broken" in terms of receiving webmentions for so you can test changes/fixes to webmention.io, or to change my link rel to use the https webmention io?
#
tantek
ok either way - more important to get this right in the services / specs than a few missed webmention on my site
#
aaronpk
i just put webmention.io back on http
#
aaronpk
but it's better for you to link to the https version anyway
#
aaronpk
i want to figure out a way to redirect GET requests on webmention.io but not POST requests
#
tantek
ok I'll try resending from Bridgy
#
aaronpk
in the mean time i can redirect the home page to https at the very least
#
tantek
oh yeah!
#
tantek
and make sure the docs all say to use https :)
#
tantek
and now Bridgy is being weird: "Failed to fetch tantek.com/2017/183/e1/su... or find a Facebook syndication link."
plindner, eli_oat[m], zoglesby, mindB and schmarty joined the channel
#
tantek
which makes no sense. if I click on the link it claims it failed to fetch, it loads just fine. and http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/2017/183/e1/sunday-yoga-presidio shows the syndication link just fine :/
#
tantek
no hold on maybe I used the wrong URL
#
tantek
retrying. nope, same Bridgy Failed error
#
tantek
maybe Bridgy "Resend for post:" feature is broken?
#
tantek
trying "Poll now" instead
#
tantek
and will retry a particular webmention
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /rsvp () "(-526) /* Case insensitive parsing */ convert to FAQ"
(view diff)
#
Loqi
[sknebel] #80 JF2 API: rsvp property overwritten by URL
j12t joined the channel
#
tantek
all this investigating and revealing of issues of rsvps, webmentions, bridgy, webmention.io, invitations etc. is both good that we're uncovering all these challenges (and documenting, resolving incrementally), but also indicates to me that we have very little real world use of depending on indie events + RSVPs (since otherwise the issues would have been uncovered sooner)
#
tantek
or perhaps existing indie events support on people's sites is implemented in such a way that their sites are 1) directly handling webmentions themselves (not using a webmention receiving service), and 2) they are not depending on Bridgy backfeed RSVPs etc. from FB POSSE copies
#
tantek
or both
#
tantek
still feels like a lot to "shake out" to get indie events to work reliably, especially with other / external moving parts / services
#
tantek
at least that's been my experience as a very new implementer of indie events
#
tantek
and as I've looked into figuring out how to handle RSVPs
#
tantek
see /rsvps for a start on some documentation / examples - needs more :)
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /User:Www.svenknebel.de (+67) "/* long-term Itches/random ideas */"
(view diff)
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /User:Www.svenknebel.de (+228) "/* long-term Itches/random ideas */ expand wm testing"
(view diff)
#
www.redblobgames.com
edited /IRC_People (+97) "add amitp"
(view diff)
tantek, [kiai], [pfefferle] and Jeena joined the channel
#
tantek
welcome Jeena !
#
tantek
what runtime env does Woodwind require? Python?
#
Jeena
yes python3
#
Loqi
Jeena: tantek left you a message on 2017-01-09 at 7:42am UTC: is there a HWC Göteborg this week? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-01-11-homebrew-website-club#Where
#
Loqi
Jeena: aaronpk left you a message on 2017-01-17 at 12:28am UTC: my parser is getting confused by your markup. is there a reason you have e-content on an element way outside where your actual text is? It's including your image alt text and such in the content this way. It would be much nicer if you had "e-content p-name" on the same element. see: https://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2Fphotos%2F265&pretty=true
#
Loqi
Jeena: tantek left you a message on 2017-04-13 at 1:32am UTC: are you available the evening of Friday 2017-06-23 to remote participate in an IndieWeb Leaders Summit? Add a note accordingly: https://indieweb.org/2017/Schedule#Comments
#
Loqi
Jeena: jeremycherfas left you a message on 2017-05-24 at 5:53pm UTC: something went wrong trying to put my reply in to your events page for the virtual HWC
#
Jeena
oh wow
#
tantek
I wonder if Loqi should warn you if you try to !tell someone who has never joined the channel
#
aaronpk
add it to the list :P
#
aaronpk
Loqi << idea: warn if you try to !tell someone who has never joined the channel
#
Loqi
ok, I added "idea: warn if you try to !tell someone who has never joined the channel" to the "See Also" section of /Loqi
#
loqi.me
edited /Loqi (+74) "aaronpk added "idea: warn if you try to !tell someone who has never joined the channel" to "See Also""
(view diff)
#
Jeena
hm the error in woodwind is now in some code in a directory called redis, I wonder if I just need to install and start redis
#
tantek.com
edited /discuss (-3) "YES TOC"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is redis?
#
Jeena
isn't it wonderfull? you try to fix something for hours, then finally you have enough and go online to rant about it and the next thing yeu try after that makes it work
#
tantek
wow really? can you maybe document it in /Woodwind#Troubleshooting ?
#
tantek
and hopefully save someone else hours?
#
Jeena
I am writing a issue on github and will later push a PR with some changes to the README
#
tantek
^^^ this is why I prefer wiki-ing to githubbing prose
#
tantek
so much ceremony on github :(
#
sknebel
What is Woodwind?
#
Loqi
Woodwind is a minimalist open source indie reader by Kyle Mahan https://indieweb.org/Woodwind
#
tantek
in contrast to: [Edit], (type text), [Save]
#
Jeena
god damn it, it's even worse, it says that I need postgres and redis running in the first paragraph of "Installation"
#
aaronpk
but anyone else installing woodwind is more likely to see that on the github readme than on the wiki
#
Jeena
it's even in italic
[miklb] joined the channel
#
tantek
aaronpk, lowering the bar for publishing is more important IMO. The Gitbhub readme can always link to the IndieWeb wiki for more info
#
aaronpk
Jeena: if you hadn't told me that was there, i wouldn't have seen it
#
aaronpk
it'd look better as a list, like "Prerequisites:\n * Postgres \n * Redis"
#
sknebel
Jeena: via the wiki, here is a post about setting it up (might be interesting for further config) https://martymcgui.re/2016/11/28/124055/
#
Loqi
[Marty McGuire] Self-Hosting kylewm's Woodwind Indie Reader
#
Jeena
I agree
#
Jeena
tantek, I kind of disagree, lowering the bar to find it is more important than lowering the bar to publish
#
sknebel
tantek: Simple readme changes aren't *that* much more difficult – if you click edit it automatically makes a fork for you and allows you to create a PR, so doc changes aren't that much harder (it's of course gated by someone to actually merge it)
#
aaronpk
this is all very -meta anyway
#
aaronpk
votes for keeping arguments about tooling out of #dev
#
tantek
Jeena - if no one writes it down, the bar to finding it is infinite
#
tantek
thus lowering the bar to writing it down is more important to start with
#
tantek
and is a pre-requisite for lowering the bar to find it
#
tantek
sknebel++ yes that's usually what I do, and if a project doesn't let me do that easily then I usually ignore the project
#
Loqi
sknebel has 14 karma in this channel (42 overall)
#
Jeena
sknebel, thanks for the link, it might be interesting once I try to run my own instance on my webserver
#
tantek.com
edited /redis (+24) "fix dfn, link, note Woodwind requires"
(view diff)
#
schmarty
i am so confused why loqi mentioned my article but i don't see a URL in my logs here in matrix. i wonder if my server is missing messages.
#
tantek
the matrix went down earlier
jjuran joined the channel
#
Jeena
phuch, now I manually imported all my subscriptions from woodwind to my own instance, perhaps I should work on a opml import/export
#
toke.love
created /User:Toke.love (+63) "Added h-card"
(view diff)
AngeloGladding joined the channel
#
aaronpk
hah nice, someone wrote a script to compare emoji detection libraries and mine came out the most accurate https://github.com/charlesverge/emoji-php-comparsion
#
Loqi
[charlesverge] emoji-php-comparsion: This is a script to do a quick comparsion of emoji detection with three different options
[kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
Could you mark up the subscriptions page of woodwind to be easier to parse?
#
[pfefferle]
hey aaronpk have you already created wordpress@indieweb.org ?
#
aaronpk
[pfefferle]: i did not, sorry! can you PM me the list of addresses to forward to again?
[miklb] and pfefferl_ joined the channel
#
jjuran
aaronpk: My face isn’t visible in the video, but I was definitely there :-)
#
[miklb]
does DM from Slack bridge?
#
aaronpk
no but i'll see it anyway
#
[pfefferle]
thanks aaronpk!
#
aaronpk
it's set!
tantek joined the channel
#
[pfefferle]
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 61 karma in this channel (1372 overall)
#
tantek
what is emoji?
#
Loqi
Emoji are “picture characters” originally associated with cellular telephone usage in Japan, but now popular worldwide https://indieweb.org/Emoji
#
tantek
emoji << [https://github.com/charlesverge/emoji-php-comparsion emoji-php-comparsion script that compares php emoji detection libraries and reports results]
#
Loqi
ok, I added "[https://github.com/charlesverge/emoji-php-comparsion emoji-php-comparsion script that compares php emoji detection libraries and reports results]" to the "See Also" section of /emoji
#
Loqi
[charlesverge] emoji-php-comparsion: This is a script to do a quick comparsion of emoji detection with three different options
#
loqi.me
edited /emoji (+149) "tantek added "[https://github.com/charlesverge/emoji-php-comparsion emoji-php-comparsion script that compares php emoji detection libraries and reports results]" to "See Also""
(view diff)
arush and [cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
loqi.me
created /Google_News (+113) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
#
loqi.me
edited /Google_News (+189) "/* See Also */ new section"
(view diff)
#
[kevinmarks]
Tantek - I think previously we had an inadvertent monoculture with events and RSVPs as only known had a solid implementation of both
snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek
kevinmarks, redwind did as well
#
tantek
but you're right in practice, vast majority of indie events posted (anecdotally) came to be from Known instances, e.g. from you and benwerd
#
loqi.me
edited /Google_News (+96) "tantek added "[https://www.google.com/#q=indieweb&tbm=nws&tbs=ar:1 Google News Archive Search for indieweb]" to "See Also""
(view diff)
snarfed and davidmead joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+455) "/* event posts */ specific show RSVPs steps"
(view diff)
#
@WendyandCharles
ReadersGazette: BLOG Indie Author Answers by Jim Heskett http://www.thejugglingauthor.com/indieauth/ Get help writing your book #bookbloggers 24
(twitter.com/_/status/881748264671989760)
#
tantek
I feel like I see that same link reposted
#
tantek
investigates
#
tantek
yup - lots of duplicate tweets with nearly same message, hashtag, links
#
tantek
reported as spam