#dev 2017-07-24

2017-07-24 UTC
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gRegorLove !tell schmarty Not sure if consuming software gripes about this, but apparently iCalendar standard says you can't use UTC offset in date-time values. Noticed your .ics files have them.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove Appears it can be of form 1) date with local time 2) date with UTC time or 3) date with local time and timezone reference
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gRegorLove Latter being the fun stuff like "TZID=America/New_York"
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gRegorLove I'm going with 2 on this project, heh
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loqi.me created /perma.cc (+57) "prompted by cweiske and dfn added by cweiske" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /perma.cc (+145) "expand dfn, links" (view diff)
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[pfefferle] good morning
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Loqi *yawn*
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gRegorLove Does anyone have examples of h-event published with u-uid?
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gRegorLove Specifically where it's different than the u-url
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@DavidDarnes Webmentions seem pretty cool for article commentary, I wonder if it's possible to integrate this now with a Jekyll… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889429859142955008 (twitter.com/_/status/889429859142955008)
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@voxpelli @DavidDarnes @martijnvdven @staticmanapp I made https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ to support Webmentions on my Jekyll site (+… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889438331033063424 (twitter.com/_/status/889438331033063424)
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@voxpelli @DavidDarnes @martijnvdven @staticmanapp + there's an issue about making so that Webmentions received there could b… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889438803861090305 (twitter.com/_/status/889438803861090305)
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schmarty !tell gRegorLove thanks! My .ics files are definitely not to spec but Google calendar seemed to grok them so good enough for now. Date with UTC time would be my preference.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi schmarty: gRegorLove left you a message 6 hours, 17 minutes ago: Not sure if consuming software gripes about this, but apparently iCalendar standard says you can't use UTC offset in date-time values. Noticed your .ics files have them.
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petermolnar if this actually works with random aspect ratios, I'll be very excited in a few minutes: http://www.cssscript.com/responsive-justified-photo-grid-layout-pure-css-flexbin-css/
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Loqi Responsive Justified Photo Grid Layout With Pure CSS – flexbin.css
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petermolnar eh, same problem as before, it crops
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petermolnar :(
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prtksxna petermolnar: Are you ok with using js?
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petermolnar I know this can be done with js :)
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petermolnar I'm stunned that flexbox can't do anything similar
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petermolnar I've asked around a few months ago, I though this is some new approach; it's not
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prtksxna hasn't explored flexbox/css grid enough to try hacking on this
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prtksxna will soon
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prtksxna Oh
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prtksxna petermolnar: https://jsfiddle.net/q5e20knd/6/
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prtksxna petermolnar: You'd be barely compatible with browsers though :/
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prtksxna (from https://stackoverflow.com/a/43903119)
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petermolnar still doesn't work without any crop
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prtksxna petermolnar: Oh... what exactly is your use case?
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aaronpk oh yeah you want the flickr style one right/
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 day, 16 hours ago: question about the federation support demonstrated by https://aaronparecki.com/2017/07/19/24/webmention-io - when you're looking at that post yourself when signed-into your site, do you have/see "Reply" or "Like" buttons yourself on the comments? And if you reply right there, do they get threaded with the original comment on micro.blog?
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aaronpk ?
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petermolnar prtksxna this, without js: https://miromannino.github.io/Justified-Gallery/
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petermolnar but it's not something I can't live without
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aaronpk yeah that's a trick
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petermolnar prtksxna my question is here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41504162
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aaronpk petermolnar: i think it's possible to do without JS if you know the image dimensions on the server side and do the layout there. is that not an option for you?
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petermolnar in that case, it'd hard to keep it fluid unless you pre-organize the whole thing on the server side
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aaronpk oh fluid too? yeah no
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petermolnar which, right now, is just too much effort to do for me :)
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petermolnar yep, that is the BIG trick in it
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aaronpk in order to do that layout fluid, you have to recalculate the whole thing each time
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petermolnar so I thought that with flexbox and max vw/vh you can do it
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aaronpk you found this link, right? http://blog.vjeux.com/2012/image/image-layout-algorithm-google-plus.html
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petermolnar yes
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petermolnar hm, only one of those, this is a really nice comparison
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petermolnar thank for the lin
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petermolnar k
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petermolnar but yeah, so vw / vh as units is how I keep my images fluid and locked aspect ratio right now
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petermolnar and it's working nice
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petermolnar but flexbox is much more limited than I anticipated
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petermolnar I miss flickr from that comparison
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Loqi misses flickr from that comparison too
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petermolnar http://code.flickr.net/2016/04/05/our-justified-layout-goes-open-source/
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@DavidDarnes Webmentions in Jekyll ? https://twitter.com/scott_gruber/status/889501922897534976 (twitter.com/_/status/889503660480360448)
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jeremycherfas Hello zegnat
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jeremycherfas I’ve run into a strange problem with the continuing work on Grav webmentions.
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jeremycherfas I updated the plugin to the 1.1 release, and that created a fatal error.
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jeremycherfas The error is triggered by line 520 of webmention.php https://github.com/Perlkonig/grav-plugin-webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L513
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jeremycherfas If I comment out just that line, I no longer get the error.
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jeremycherfas With that line, Symfony says “Unexpected characters near "]" at line 40 (near "links: { }]”).” and tracing the various steps in Grav it goes back to that one line.
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jeremycherfas But I cannot see anything funny in that line.
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voxpelli must say that he loves that he built language sniffing into his Micropub endpoint – he just posted a bookmark in Swedish and it automatically understood it was Swedish and marked it up as Swedish – yay
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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voxpelli hugs Loqi
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Loqi hugs voxpelli
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aaronpk niice
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Zegnat jeremycherfas, that error suggests a problem in the YAML file to me
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jeremycherfas Webmention.yaml?
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Zegnat possibly.
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Zegnat Does that have a “links” near line 40?
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jeremycherfas No, that contains details for the Vouch settings.
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jeremycherfas I could try disabling Vouch
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jeremycherfas That makes no difference.
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jeremycherfas Let me try creating an entirely new YAML file.
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jeremycherfas Nope, same error.
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jeremycherfas New, clean YAML is only 32 lines, but get the same Line 40 error.
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jeremycherfas That line 40 is in Symfony’s /yaml/inline.php file and is the line that produces the error message.
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jeremycherfas It might be something to do with the datafile that the plugin creates.
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jeremycherfas The plugin is calling Yaml::parse on the content of the datafile
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jeremycherfas Yup. That was it. I deleted the old datafiles and the error is gone.
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Zegnat Yeah, had to be YAML :/
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Zegnat Wonder why though, because I believe it uses the same YAML lib to write the file in the first place
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jeremycherfas Possibly because the files were left over from a previous install. I got in a terrible mess yesterday, so deleted the Dev branch and re-installed the plugin, now working on a new dev branch and the first thing that happened was that error. :(
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Zegnat Hmm, odd.
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jeremycherfas Probably an error I introduced.
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Zegnat It is really hard to mess up saving and reading the YAML file though, jeremycherfas :P
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jeremycherfas Not when you open it to read and maybe press a key by accident.
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Zegnat Ah, well, yes, that could be it
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Zegnat These days I am a big fan of opening such files on the command line where I am sure not to accidentally save them
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jeremycherfas That makes sense.
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jeremycherfas Voxpelli Is it possible to use your webmention app from a local install?
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voxpelli jeremycherfas: I run it all locally in dev, with my testpinger and everything – just check the sample env file and then run the command to set up the local Postgres database
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jeremycherfas Thanks.
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voxpelli You of course need to install Postgres then as well :) But that should be easy, depending on your OS
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jeremycherfas OSX
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jeremycherfas Voxpelli: I might try and do it by exposing my local dev site with ngrok.
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voxpelli That works as well
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jeremycherfas Simpler, for me, to begin with.
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voxpelli jeremycherfas: if you want Postgres on macOS: https://postgresapp.com/
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voxpelli Should work well, I do mine via Homebree though
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jeremycherfas Thanks
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voxpelli s/Homebree/Homebrew/
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jeremycherfas I generally use Homebrew too.
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gRegorLove I've got an MVP PHP script to make .ics from h-event working. Will open source it shortly once I clean it up.
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Loqi gRegorLove: schmarty left you a message 5 hours, 4 minutes ago: thanks! My .ics files are definitely not to spec but Google calendar seemed to grok them so good enough for now. Date with UTC time would be my preference.
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tantek gRegorLove: by "working" I seriously hope you looked at how H2VX generates ics and copied the weird details in the ICS output from it
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tantek otherwise it's going to be many months of "fix the ICS to work in all the calendar consumers one at a time" struggles
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gRegorLove Are the weird details documented or just by reading the xsl?
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gRegorLove I followed the RFC and the validator on icalendar.org, as well as comparing to h2vx output and schmarty's
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tantek I think the weird details may be documented in ancient X2V commit logs
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tantek yes the RFC + validator are very far from sufficient
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tantek comparing to h2vx output is a good start
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tantek if you want to black box it - which you don't have to - that's my point. h2vx is open source
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gRegorLove I really didn't want to dive into XSL
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gRegorLove Not sure what black box it means
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tantek black box it means to just look at something by what outputs does it give when you give it certain inputs, *without* looking at anything it does with those inputs to determine the outputs. it's a literal analogy. you put stuff into the black(opaque) box, you have no idea what happens inside, you get stuff out, then you reconstruct (theorize) what it did
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tantek prominent in reverse engineering
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gRegorLove Gotcha
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tantek realizes he should have checked wikipedia
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tantek yup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
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gRegorLove So far the only differences is h2vx has language and charset for some content lines.
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tantek those are pretty essential
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tantek in particular, several calendars IIRC depend on explicit CHARSET to UTF-8 or else they use some rando charset (Latin-1?)
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gRegorLove Which I can add. I've got the 75 character wrapping with CRLF and the fields we need, which are minimal
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tantek originally just using my surname exposed a lot of that
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tantek but today, emojis in event names I'm sure would
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gRegorLove For the immediate use case (work project) I think we'll be cool as long as it supports iCal, gCal, and Outlook
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gRegorLove Yeah, I'm going to test with more utf8 characters
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@dylanon Now all set up to receive webmentions with Webmention.io. Will work on displaying them in context next. https://webmention.io (twitter.com/_/status/889539734271340544)
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@placerdiario What the New Webmention and Annotation W3C Standards Mean for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/webmentions-annotations-web-standards/ WPMU DEV Blog (twitter.com/_/status/889555280815685633)
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voxpelli Continuing from #indieweb: Looks like Lobster actually already fetches the full page: https://github.com/jcs/lobsters/blob/0ad6dffbe705f1d446461061f855a95b1df233d6/app/models/story.rb#L791 So would be easy to parse webmention endpoint from there
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voxpelli should maybe write a feature request after all
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gRegorLove What is Lobster?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Lobster" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove What is Lobsters?
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Loqi lobsters is a technology-focused link-aggregation site similar to Hacker News https://lobste.rs https://indieweb.org/lobsters
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voxpelli right, important -s there :P
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gregorlove.com edited /lobsters (+2) "link dfn" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /lobsters (+79) "open source, github link" (view diff)
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sebsel aaronpk The XRay library release .zip has a .zip inside with the XRay library release
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aaronpk sebsel: ?
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aaronpk i heard you like XRay so I put an XRay in ur XRay
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tantek hopes the .zip doens't have a .zip inside
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sebsel It's XRay all the way down https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/fe852f-xray-all-the-way-down.jpg
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tantek that. shouldn't be possible
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tantek unless with each release it goes one deeper. inception style
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aaronpk Is that real
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sknebel yep
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sebsel I shopped one extra pane for the effect, because I already had that screenshot and threw the files out.
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sebsel But now I tried again, and yes, it's the same thing over and over again.
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sknebel seems like you included the previous release every time
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sknebel (now I want to figure out if you can make a zipquine like that, that actually is endless)
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sebsel Also, the views and the public folder are included too, so something is wrong there.
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sknebel (and .DS_STORE files, while we are complaining ;))
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sebsel Oh, yeah, it stopped after 5 zips :D
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aaronpk I have a script that zips the files in the current folder into the zip and I think it has been including the zip each time
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aaronpk I'll have to reevaluate my workflow :-)
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sebsel The previous xray-app.zip was 9.28 MB, the newest 15.5 MB, so maybe that one is affected too :P
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KartikPrabhu zipception
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aaronpk Haha
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Loqi awesome
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@dylanon Oops - Configured Webmention.io wrong. Tags must be added to all pages, not just the home page (as for IndieAuth).… https://dylanon.com/blog/2017/07/24/76357/ (twitter.com/_/status/889594647923838977)
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tantek.com edited /Kirby (+178) "stub why section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Kirby (+0) "gen" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+69) "/* Bellingham */ status" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed: I'm trying to come up wtih a series of strategies for incrementally implementing showing responses of various types for various types of posts
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tantek to basically minimize unintended exposure to bad actors on my personal site
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snarfed yup. you mentioned starting with blacklisting all bridgy, to start. sgtm.
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tantek and in the process, figure out just what is required for at least some more "challenging" scenarios with showing backfeeds on your personal site
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tantek I realize most people here have (nearly) zero problem with their backfeeds, but I'd posit that's because of 1) small(er) amounts of attention, 2) the very strongly biased demographics of privilege (mostly white-ish and/or mostly male-ish)
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snarfed yup
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tantek because of @t incurring so much collateral backfeed damage, it's at least *a* more challenging use-case that may help explore (even address?) some of the problems beyond that privileged demographic.
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tantek trying to at least talk about it openly to explore it openly, and admit to the challenges along the way
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tantek responses from FB and IG are fairly high s/n, with rare abuse that not only is it quick to block, but the providers are quick to delete such accounts
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@molovo Spent this evening trying in vain to learn about webmentions https://twitter.com/molovo/status/889610609213538304/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/889610609213538304)
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tantek oh that reminds me - does Bridgy do anything with backfeeds from accounts that services have taken down?
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snarfed it naively passes through the 404s etc
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snarfed nothing more explicit
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tantek there is the question of censorship enabling
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tantek however it may be too much to ask to try to discern when silos drop accounts for abuse vs other reasons
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snarfed more importantly, bridgy can't try to preserve speech that it hasn't previously fetched and stored
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tantek no that's not a problem
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tantek I mean with old speech from newly banned accounts
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tantek does that stay on Bridgy? or does Bridgy 410 those
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snarfed bridgy's mf2 conversion pretty much always fetches every time. it doesn't serve from storage
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snarfed so yes it would 404
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tantek oh wow had no idea those were fried not backed
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tantek baked*
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aaronpk fried not baked ?
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tantek aaronpk wait tell me you haven't heard that before
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aaronpk I've heard "baked" but not fried!
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tantek fried/baked analogy for backend page serving
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tantek wat seriously? this was the original contrast between WordPress and MT
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aaronpk well this is impossible to google
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snarfed re why, short answer is, we want to catch updates. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/15#issuecomment-216609690
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tantek MT was baked (by perl into static files then served), WordPress always fried pages up as demanded from MySQL queries
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Loqi [snarfed] done, yay. oldest issue we've closed in a long time. :P oh and for the record, serving from stored responses would be tricky since we always want to serve the current silo response, or 404/410 if it's missing, etc. this should usually still work w...
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tantek makes sense snarfed
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snarfed on a related plumbing note, the current proposal for block lists in mf2 is ul.h-blocklist of li.h-cards. any objections? details: https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40#issuecomment-266310635
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Loqi [snarfed] tentative proposed mf2: `ul.h-blocklist` of `li.h-card`s. based on http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list-brainstorming#simple_container_of_hCards (the `ul` could also have `h-feed`, but that may be redundant, and also the mf2 wiki says it's just ...
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snarfed or maybe we don't need any mf2, we just serve a list of h-cards, and application context determines that it's a block list
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tantek snarfed, in general we've avoided such "list" or "container" objects
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tantek because in practice they're not needed, unless the list or container has its own intrinsic properties (name, author, icon etc.)
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snarfed sgtm. i just blindly extrapolated from http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list-brainstorming#example
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Loqi block-list-brainstorming
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aaronpk h-feed might be appropriate as a container for the h-cards tho?
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snarfed sure
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tantek so yeah, by default I would oppose an h-blocklist container without use-cases specifically for an explicit container object
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aaronpk oh yeah that page does seem to suggest a new top-level "blocklist" object
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tantek h-feed had to be justified by specific use-cases for it the list / container
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aaronpk "Proposed by Tantek during events/2008-08-12-weekly-meetup-dinner" omg almost 10 years ago
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tantek aaronpk of course it does because explicit is dev design by default
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tantek is vulnerable to that same flaw of course
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tantek being self aware of a flaw does not make you not vulnerable to it :)
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tantek ah the weekly uf dinners where we actually brainstormed and iterated on this stuff
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aaronpk weekly!
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tantek and local!
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tantek however nearly always only in SF
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tantek which is not really good for standards development frankly. far too insular / barriers for others
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tantek and you'll note (perhaps more meta) that I created wiki pages and upcoming events etc. for every one of them
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tantek has been feeling that pain for a while
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tantek (sometimes even Pownce and Plancast too when they were around)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+179) "/* Cities getting started */ +Frederick, MD" (view diff)
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seblog.nl edited /Kirby (+749) "/* Why */ expanding" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /mass_adoption (+38) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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sebsel lol, then my post to glenn became on-topic for this discussion... I just got a spam-retweet-via-bridgy
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gRegorLove I might be seeing some attempts to webmention spam via the manual form at the bottom of my posts. Only on the php-mf2 anniversary post so far, though.
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sebsel what is the current thing to do? Manual block and delete?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "current thing to do" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk gRegorLove: i think that's just form spam
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gRegorLove The URLs don't even link to me, though. I added some more logging to confirm that's where they're coming from.
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aaronpk bots will submit any form they find
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tantek yep
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gRegorLove Right, used the wrong term
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snarfed aaronpk++ yup. still no confirmed native wm spam in the wild yet afaik.
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Loqi aaronpk has 67 karma in this channel (1385 overall)
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tantek that being said, are there some basic form design (markup) techniques for catching at least the dumbest bots?
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gRegorLove I have a honeypot field which works pretty well, though I forgot to put it on that form.
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tantek like hidden input fields
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tantek oh?
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tantek what is a honeypot field
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "honeypot field" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove It's on my local comments form, borrowed from Known.
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tantek curious to see that technique documented with at least a link to an existing how to
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aaronpk i keep meaning to document that
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aaronpk i've used that for years, it works extremely well
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gRegorLove text field, display: none, placeholder text "If you are human, don't fill in this field."
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loqi.me created /Facebook_Comments_Plugin (+220) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Facebook_Comments_Plugin (+1) "linkify ('… is <url>' pattern)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+183) "/* Features */ User features Facebook handles on other sites:" (view diff)
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gRegorLove honeypot field is a form input that is intended to be left blank and spam bots will usually fill in, allowing you to filter out a lot of spam form submissions.
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loqi.me created /honeypot_field (+186) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is a webmention form
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webmention form" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gregorlove.com edited /honeypot_field (+81) "IndieWeb Examples, See Also" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Kirby (+235) "tantek added "2017-07-24 criticism: [http://glenn.thedixons.net/blog/giving-up-on-indieweb Giving Up on IndieWeb] <blockquote>Kirby plugins - I installed both micropub and webmentions - as far as I can tell, neither work as expected.</blockquote>" to" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /honeypot_field (+632) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Kirby (+324) "follow-up" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek: Some of my numbers: https://gregorlove.com/2017/03/spam-statistics-since-2017-05-10-when/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] Spam statistics since 2016-05-10, when I last reported: 1,224 caught by honeypot — an extra hidden field was filled in when it shouldn’t have been 828 marked as spam by Akismet 18 spam comments got through Akismet
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tantek wow
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tantek Aside: folks who think certain UI things should "just be in the browser" ought to try writing one of these: http://webextensions-experiments.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk not in chrome yet?
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k_naming_convention (+13) "/* Unused Names */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (-58) "/* Apps */" (view diff)
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