#dev 2017-08-10

2017-08-10 UTC
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boffosocko.com edited /Mastodon (+305) "changed primary dfn link to generic Mastodon entrance to choose particular instance; pagelogo; tool section; unmung tool; article section" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /bookmark (+218) "Sebastiaan Andeweg quote about subscribing to own bookmarks in a reader" (view diff)
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aaronpk reviews granary docs
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aaronpk is using a "borrowed" laptop at the moment so is challenged in making changes to his own website
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snarfed aaronpk: feel free to send feedback on https://granary.readthedocs.io/ if you have any!
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aaronpk snarfed: what's the reason granary doesn't include the u-photo inside the atom content?
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snarfed um https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/113 ?
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Loqi [aaronpk] #113 Include mf2 photo in Atom content?
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk has this really not come up before? anyone using granary who's publishing photos as a separate mf2 property and not including the image inside the html content would be hitting this case
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snarfed i guess it hasn't? honestly that's pretty specific
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snarfed again, i'm happy to make any change we decide on. it just sounded like consensus was still kinda weak
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aaronpk well i'm struggling to find a case when including the img inside the atom content is the wrong thing to do
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aaronpk i mean unless it's in the content already obviously
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aaronpk RSS an Atom consumers don't currently look for a separate property for the image, so they will not show the image unless it's in the content
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snarfed righ
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snarfed i vaguely actually remember including it originally, and then omitting it for exactly that reason: it was in the content so it got duplicated
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snarfed (at least for many/most feeds)
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aaronpk oof
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snarfed i'll look
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aaronpk i also remember dealing with this issue when writing Monocle
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aaronpk my alternate solution is looking really grim, which is to move the e-content class to encompass everything in the post including a lot of the metadata
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aaronpk i guess i have another solution which is to move the photo in my posts inside the div with e-content. although i'm not sure if that's going to have any effects on how my CSS is applied
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snarfed i'll look into how easily it would be to de-dupe
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aaronpk in related news, my HWC project tonight was a complete fail ?
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KartikPrabhu I put my u-photos inside <content> for Atom
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snarfed aaronpk: aww. what was the project?
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[tantek] Effects on how CSS is applied? Um aaronpk you're not styling mf2 classes directly are you?
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aaronpk No but it has to do with which elements are nested in which containing elements
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[tantek] (We know from experience e.g. Wordpress to actively avoid styling mf class names)
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[tantek] Also minimize use of nesting in selectors
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aaronpk Its partly about wanting the photos to bleed to the edge
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[tantek] But yeah I get that there are other scenarios that weakly bind markup and style
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[tantek] Yeah I had to use negative margins iirc for that ?
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aaronpk Also it's made more complicate by the variety of kinds of content in my posts s
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[tantek] I bet
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aaronpk also im not actually sure I want the photo of a photo post to be in the e-content. That still seems wrong
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[tantek] Why? It's semantically orthogonal
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[tantek] I mean what is the sense of wrongness coming from
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aaronpk consuming it
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[tantek] Are you writing another reader?
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aaronpk this was a huge annoyance when I was writing monocle
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aaronpk if the photo is in the content, then there shouldn't be a need to mark it up with u-photo, cause if you do then the photo appears twice in the h-entry
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[tantek] This "appears twice" makes lots of implementation assumptions
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[tantek] That was back before post type discovery was as advanced as it is now
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[tantek] Now there are more options for readers to be smarter in a predictable way
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aaronpk i mean it's literally duplicated in the parsed mf2
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[tantek] Which is not what users see
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[tantek] It's decomposed in the parsed mf2
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aaronpk deduplicating it involves parsing the HTML of the e-content which kind of defeats the purpose of mf2
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[tantek] And yeah, have you looked at how much duplication there is in your typical atom feed out there?
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aaronpk the whole reason Iike mf2 is I don't have to think about HTML anymore
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[tantek] Plumbing formats (xml, json, etc) nearly always end up duplicating stuff
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aaronpk this isn't about Atom tho, we're trying to do better than that
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[tantek] It's unavoidable
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[tantek] We're doing way better than atom in lots of ways
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[tantek] Avoiding duplication in decomposed dev plumbing formats is nearly impossible though
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aaronpk theres also a difference between duplicated properties vs needing to parse an additional format in order to deduce
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aaronpk dedupe
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aaronpk i don't think it's a good idea to require HTML parsing in order to consume mf2 data since the HTML should have all been converted to a data structure during the parsing stage
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[tantek] I don't understand that conclusion either
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[tantek] I think you need to write up what the actual problem is. This is getting super abstract with lots of implementation assumptions.
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[tantek] Actual problem meaning user facing problem
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aaronpk anyway it's bed time
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[tantek] I have a feeling one possible actual problem is trying to present photo plus caption consistently in a reader
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[tantek] For which we could look at combinations of prior art, e.g. Flickr atom feed plus rss/atom reader - how do they make that work?
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[tantek] (Why discussing / documenting "actual" user facing problems are a more effective way to solve this kind of thing, the specifics allow us to look for existing attempts to solve similar problems analyze them)
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[tantek] (From a UX / publishing & consuming user flow perspective, instead of being limited by reasoning about plumbing details)
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@Nico3333fr Cool, @nhoizey added #CSP directives for webmention.io https://github.com/nico3333fr/CSP-useful/tree/master/csp-for-third-party-services#webmentionio (twitter.com/_/status/895544285847732224)
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mblaney aaronpk if it helps with your reasoning, you don't need to parse the HTML in this case, just check for the existence of the u-photo string in the e-content... not much of a loophole but maybe enough...
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mblaney and I agree that u-photo should be 'flattened' into the content for RSS/Atom, my thinking is that microformats provides the richer vocabulary, and moving to older formats requires simplification. I have the same problem trying to fit h-card into available author fields in SimplePie.
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sebsel I have the same problem as aaronpk with u-photo's in e-content and CSS... But I am not going to put my u-photo inside the e-content for now. I agree that it feels wrong.
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mblaney sebsel yes I agree but that's why RSS/Atom should be converting it.
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petermolnar mblaney u-photo should not be flattened that way
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petermolnar it should and an enclosure
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petermolnar s/and/be
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petermolnar in my opinion
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mblaney petermolnar that's the question I guess, do you try and keep semantics somehow related or just simplify it. The answer might also depend on how well enclosures are supported.
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petermolnar unless you're on some truly ancient feed reader, you shouldn't worry about that
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sknebel displays differently though, at least in some readers
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sknebel (and I'Ve even have examples of the exact same duplication issue: image added to post content and as an enclosure -> shows up twice)
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mblaney you might have to worry about the media type in the enclosure? I haven't heard of images in enclosures.
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petermolnar https://petermolnar.net/category/photo/feed/
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mblaney well I have now then :-)
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mblaney petermolnar I think that's a great way to go for converting u-photo to Atom then. (I notice RSS won't work as it requires one enclosure per item, but that's ok.)
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Zegnat mblaney where is it specified that you can only have 1 enclosure per item?
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mblaney Zegnat: http://www.rssboard.org/rss-profile#element-channel-item-enclosure
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Zegnat Is it assumed that you can only have 1 if they don’t specify it?
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Zegnat Asking mostly because I seem to recall back in the day Google Reader had no problems with RSS with multiple enclosures
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mblaney yeah even that link says it's common to have more than one, then goes on to not recommend it...
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mblaney so I think it's more just dealing with history and providing minimal support.
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Zegnat Upon further reading, yeah, it seems enclosure is for just 1 thing. If you really MUST adhere to that, you can always go with something like http://www.rssboard.org/media-rss to have multiple images included
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mblaney this has given me a lot to think about. I'm now wondering how most readers would display images in an enclosure.
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mblaney I subscribed to your photo feed in feedly petermolnar, it put the photo at the top of the entry, looked fine. wouldn't know it wasn't part of the content.
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sknebel in inoreader it puts it below, but still fine
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Zegnat Feedbin doesn’t show any photos from https://petermolnar.net/category/photo/feed/
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petermolnar :(
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[kevinmarks] Nor does unmung, but I could fix that http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fpetermolnar.net%2Fcategory%2Fphoto%2Ffeed%2F
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[kevinmarks] (I show audio and video enclosures)
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aaronpk petermolnar: do you know of rss readers that show the photo in the enclosure? Manton was saying there weren't many/any that do
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petermolnar tt-rss
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petermolnar thunderbird
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sknebel inoreader, feedly per discussion above
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aaronpk That's worth documenting somewhere
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aaronpk what is an enclosure?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "enclosure" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar the enclosure tells the mime, the size, and the url
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petermolnar I'm surprised it's not used for images widely
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Zegnat Maybe because people share a lot of posts with multiple images, and that goes against the 1-enclosure-only rule on RSS?
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petermolnar unless it's an 'image' post format, supported by wp and tumblr
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petermolnar which is one image
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petermolnar and I never had problem with multiple enclosures in the past
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Zegnat I seem to remember Google Reader handling multiple enclosures fine too
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sknebel An enclosure is a file attached to an entry in an Atom/RSS feed, used, among other things, for [[podcasts]].
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sknebel what is an enclosure?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "enclosure" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sknebel An enclosure is a file attached to an entry in an Atom/RSS feed, used, among other things, for [[podcasts]].
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loqi.me created /enclosure (+132) "prompted by sknebel and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk what is FitBit?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "FitBit" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk ?
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aaronpk FitBit is a hardware device and service for tracking [[exercise]] and other physical activity
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loqi.me created /FitBit (+121) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:fitbit-heart-rate.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:fitbit-heart-rate.png"
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aaronparecki.com edited /FitBit (+289) "add heart rate info" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /sleep (+54) "/* Aaron Parecki */" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] People did pdf enclosures for a while
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[kevinmarks] Think that has died out mostly
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sebsel lol, I saw aaronpk's Spotify songlist, and it turns out their widget makes requests to 127.0.0.1:4388 to see if Spotify is running
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aaronpk i was wondering how that worked
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sebsel that could be a strategy for things like indieconfig: run a thing on your own computer under a standard port.
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sebsel not sure if that's the best strategy, but it could work
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aaronpk hah
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aaronpk yeah the spotify website widgets can control playback on the desktop app, and get info about what song is playing and stuff
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[kevinmarks] Does that work on a phone too?
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aaronpk on the phone it looks like it just plays it in the browser
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aaronpk at least ios
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sebsel I don't see any requests to 127.0.0.1 if I open the page on my iPhone (using dev tools on Mac Safari to view)
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sebsel So they solve that differently
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Virtual_HWC (+183) "Discord video/screen sharing beta" (view diff)
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bear hey all - please do update Git -- https://twitter.com/adam_baldwin/status/895770936070201344
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@adam_baldwin Update Git. ssh:// url can be abused to run cmds http://marc.info/?l=git&m=150238802328673&w=2 poc: git clone ssh://-oProxyCommand=touch%20foo/github.com (twitter.com/_/status/895770936070201344)
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aaronpk wow
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bear yea, it's a nasty one - v2.14.1 is available now via homebrew and OS package managers
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bear there is also one for PHP5 -- https://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3382-1
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[miklb] bear++
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Loqi bear has 17 karma in this channel (190 overall)
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Atlas gives me a 500 when I try to get a map of an address. I used the example on the Static Maps API github. Did the syntax change? http://atlas.p3k.io/map/img?marker[]=location:920%20SW%203rd%20Ave,%20Portland,%20OR;icon:small-blue-cutout&basemap=gray&width=400&height=240&zoom=14
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gRegorLove geocode works, though: http://atlas.p3k.io/api/geocode?input=920%20SW%203rd%20Ave,%20Portland,%20OR