2017-08-13 UTC
eli_oat, snarfed, myfreeweb, eli_oat[m], plindner, TheGillies, schmarty, mindB, zoglesby, AlanPearce[m], [chrisaldrich], KartikPrabhu, mblaney, barpthewire, [renem], jjuran and sketchess joined the channel
# 10:38 sketchess Good morning everyone. # 10:40 sketchess I try to solve a semantic problem. It is more a HTML than a CSS case. # 10:48 sketchess The body tag can't have two different background colors. But that kind of is exactly what I want. I do not want to use a div container, if there is a other way. # 10:49 sketchess To describe it further: # 10:49 Zegnat “two different background colors” sounds like a CSS problem # 10:50 sketchess You do not even let me finish Zegnat. *lol* [jeremycherfas] joined the channel
# 10:53 Zegnat This is IRC, people are always going to write, you just keep writing your question sketchess :) # 10:53 Zegnat I wasn’t trying to interrupt you, just throwing in an off the cuff remark # 10:54 sketchess I am writing, I need a little time. .... *typing further... # 10:58 sketchess I know my main background color shell be #ddd. My content shell be surrounded by a border colored #bbb. The content's background color shell be #eee. In the end it shell look like fake piece of paper. Pretty simple layout, I know. (not finished) # 11:02 sketchess I have to have another tag. The body could get the #ddd. The second tag could get the remaining border color and background color. So CSS isn't currently my problem. I am searching for the alternative to a div container. # 11:02 sketchess A tag that holds my content and which I can style. # 11:04 [jeremycherfas] You can add a style to any paragraph, and use it with a span if you don’t want to have a DIV # 11:04 sketchess I was looking around. I am not sure what is the best to pick. The main tag for example?. # 11:04 Zegnat Though you can also make HTML your main background #DDD and then style BODY with the #EEE background and a border. # 11:04 sketchess Hold on please. # 11:05 sketchess I wasn't sure, if I could style the whole html itself. That's something that I didn't try out. # 11:06 Zegnat You can style the craziest things. I remember people styling the TITLE element. # 11:06 sketchess It sounds simple but effective. I am not comforted by the thought wrapping my content into something additional. # 11:08 sketchess I am not sure, if I know how to set the html itself. I never wanted this before. # 11:09 sketchess I assume, I could add a style tag to the html tag. But CSS? # 11:11 sketchess Let me have a run.... # 11:15 sketchess Yeah, it works. That is good. I still can have a header + main + footer on a fake piece of paper, if I wish. # 11:19 sketchess Very good. This way it does not conflict with other stuff I planned. # 11:20 sketchess Thank you very much. Simpler it couldn't be. # 11:26 sketchess Ok, from here I currently do not need further help. If so, I will be back. [jeremycherfas], sketchess, davidmead, davidmead_, jjuran, [miklb], tantek and snarfed joined the channel
# 16:09 sknebel following the discussion in #microformats, how many sites actually can deal with different authors? (I assume for many the author info is in a template, and not dynamic?) snarfed joined the channel
# 16:18 Loqi wall is the original name for a feature launched on Facebook which is a user's stream of updates shown on their profile page, similar to the main stream of posts you might show on your indieweb homepage, however with key innovations such as allowing your friends to "write" (create) posts on your wall, and also showing others' public posts that person-tag you https://indieweb.org/wall # 16:19 Loqi [jonnybarnes] #29 [Feature Request]Can we include the info of who checks us in? snarfed joined the channel
# 16:20 tantek Oh does OYS now post to your site when others check you in? # 16:20 aaronpk I still think Swarm "checked in by" is quite different from a wall post # 16:21 aaronpk OYS has always posted to your site when someone else checks you in because as far as it can tell it's just another Check-in # 16:21 tantek "showing others' public posts that person-tag you" # 16:21 aaronpk rigt what I'm saying is Swarm checkins are not that # 16:22 tantek is basically person-tagging people on your checkin # 16:22 aaronpk when someone else checks you in on Swarm there are two separate checkins created # 16:22 aaronpk one has a person tag, the other says "checked in by" # 16:22 tantek you don't think the latter is just a representation of the former # 16:22 Zegnat I guess I am saying that second one is redundant # 16:23 sknebel Zegnat: seems like it has some general issue, trying to investigate # 16:23 Zegnat But again, I don’t use Swarm so hard to say. Going from the screenshot sebsel posted, my first reaction was “that is a representation in my feed of someone else checking me in” # 16:23 aaronpk both end up being separate posts people can interact with # 16:24 aaronpk and if I'm following Zegnat but not Sven I'll still see Zegnat's checkin # 16:24 jonnybarnes the annoying thing for me is when Swarm creates the second checkin, it doesn’t include the text/comment the original poster made # 16:24 tantek aaronpk: true on first point, second does not apply # 16:25 sebsel I am not following the person that actually made the checkin, so I did not see that one. But there are two posts, indeed. And I can only see the one of the friend I followed. # 16:25 aaronpk jonnybarnes: that's how it looks on Swarm too tho [kevinmarks] joined the channel
# 16:25 tantek aaronpk: the "I'm following Zegnat but not Sven I'll still see Zegnat's checkin" is also true for person-tagged posts showing up on someone else's wall # 16:25 tantek e.g. if you're friends with Zegnat, but not Sven, you'll still see a "Sven posted..." on Zegnat's wall # 16:26 tantek but the first point is interesting " separate posts people can interact with" - their responses are distinct # 16:26 Zegnat sknebel - is the sturdy backbone an issue with your website? It seemed to work when I didn’t mark you as the author. # 16:27 tantek aaronpk, yeah that's a more clear example of how they are different posts # 16:27 Loqi aaronpk has 70 karma in this channel (1403 overall) # 16:29 jonnybarnes so it shouldnt repear the info so it doesnt appear twice in peoples feeds? # 16:29 tantek "Checked in by" probably is good enough as a section # 16:30 sebsel And when the other person checks in themselfs, the original post is removed / updated with the new checkin. # 16:30 aaronpk jonnybarnes: more like because the content was authored by a different person # 16:30 Loqi sebsel has 8 karma in this channel (40 overall) # 16:30 tantek because the timestamp doesn't change (from when they were "checked in by") # 16:30 sebsel Yeah, it updates, actually. Aaronpk checked me in to... was it Sarphatipark in Amsterdam? # 16:31 tantek also, likes/comments etc. on the "checked in by" are still there when you check in yourself # 16:31 aaronpk I'm pretty sure the foursquare ID stays the same too cause OYS doesn't post it *again* to your site # 16:31 Zegnat Oh, sebsel’s point does change it a bit. Yes. Then I would mark that post’s author as you and not the person that is checking you in # 16:31 sebsel But then when I added a text by checkin in myself, OwnYourSwarm did not detect that. # 16:31 sebsel So, it was not creating a new one, it was updating. # 16:31 tantek so it is a distinct post, by someone else, to your timeline, which you can then update, and by doing so, you become the author! # 16:31 aaronpk sebsel: yeah that's just cause the only update OYS looks for right now is photos # 16:32 Zegnat However, I would still be tempted to display the original “wall post”/“person tagged post” in my feed rather than the bare one that Swarm helpfully creates for me, as nobody actually /created/ that one so to speak. # 16:32 sebsel aaronpk yes, but it indicates that it's not a create+delete but an update # 16:33 aaronpk I need to fix OYS to check for updates to checkin content rather than just looking for new photos # 16:34 sebsel That's the only update on Swarm, btw, checkin in yourself after someone else did. I made a typo yesterday and discovered I cannot update it myself. # 16:34 sknebel Zegnat: think I fixed it, no idea how that happened though # 16:35 Loqi [sebsel] #24 Checkin created by other person should be updated after you check yourself in # 16:35 Zegnat sknebel, now it just ends with “null” for the h-card, which I guess is right with your website # 16:37 Zegnat I can’t find your h-card by eye either, sknebel :P # 16:38 tantek I still think it very much resembles a wall post # 16:38 Zegnat It is almost more like letting friends post *as you*, rather than just into your feed (i.e. “a wall post”) # 16:39 aaronpk A wall post shows the author as the person who posted # 16:39 tantek I disagree, the wording makes you the 3rd person # 16:40 sebsel Note that the wording and display on Swarm have changed with the update last week # 16:41 tantek aaronpk, actual wall posts don't exist anywhere else # 16:41 aaronpk right it's like you're reposting someone else's post # 16:41 sebsel Before it was just the photo-in-photo that indicated it, now it has text. # 16:41 tantek it's a direct create post on the other person's wall # 16:41 aaronpk on my Facebook profile there are several posts by other people that also exist on their timelines # 16:42 Zegnat I think I am blocking wall posts, so I can’t comment # 16:42 tantek aaronpk - are they just person-tagged with you? or actual A > B posts? # 16:43 tantek only the latter is really "posting on someone else's wall" leg joined the channel
# 16:43 Zegnat Ah, apparently I reenabled. Someone has posted an image to my wall, and that post does not show up in their own feed. # 16:44 Zegnat Also, adding images to someone’s wall gets rid of the “A > B” display, tantek, so I had to do a double take # 16:44 aaronpk Ah I found one with the arrow. The recent ones were tagged posts # 16:45 aaronpk still the major difference is that on FB the author photo is the other person # 16:46 aaronpk whereas with Swarm it looks to someone reading my profile that I checked in # 16:48 sebsel Yeah, the big profile picture is still that of the owner of the checkin, not the poster. # 16:48 aaronpk If you look at a wall post on my profile, there's no situation where you'd assume it's something I wrote or did # 16:50 tantek Zegnat: just a different presentation, but yes, noteworthy for the "User A added a photo to User B's Timeline" longer form # 16:50 tantek that's an appropriate abbr expansion of User A > User B # 16:51 tantek maybe it used to even say "User A wrote a post on User B's Timeline" # 16:51 Zegnat Definitely. I was just looking for the arrow which made me miss this at first # 16:56 sebsel Could this also be related to the nature of the checkin? A wall post is just a text note (most of the time) and thus has an author (sender) and a receiver. But with a checkin, you're saying "A was at C" and "A was at C (said B)". So the author is also the actor. # 16:56 Zegnat This Swarm thing is really interesting. Especially when a post shows up on Alice’s timeline because Bob checked her in, at this point you might want to threat Bob as author of said post, and then Alice can go in and edit this post, which would make her the author again :/ # 16:59 Zegnat On checkins there are definitely “people being checked in”, and we currently imply that the author of said checkin is one of those people snarfed joined the channel
# 17:00 aaronpk Just another data point, the privacy setting on Swarm says "Save me time by letting my friends check me in" drewinthehead, [shurcool] and eli_oat joined the channel
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# 18:54 [shurcool] I'd like to bring to your attention a minor Slack-related issue, if you don't mind. This channel has no description (equivalent to topic in irc), so it's pretty hard to tell what it's for and not for. # 18:54 [shurcool] for someone like me who's viewing this in slack # 18:55 [shurcool] actually, slack has topics and description for channels. but both are empty in this case. # 18:56 sknebel [shurcool]: thx for mentioning it! (not sure if Slack requires an admin to change that, or if anyone can do it?) # 18:56 [shurcool] I _think_ anyone can set topic, but only admin can set description. # 18:57 Zegnat It would be nice if Loqi could change it. E.g. have it always reflect the IRC topic? Nice for when we link to the virtual Homebrew Website Club in the topic. [miklb] joined the channel
# 18:57 [miklb] miklb set the channel topic: IndieWeb development discussions # 18:58 Loqi [[miklb ]] miklb set the channel topic: IndieWeb development discussions # 18:59 [shurcool] also, the description of the default #indieweb channel is the generic slack default: ""This channel is for team-wide communications and announcements. All team members are in this all channel." # 18:59 Loqi miklb has 7 karma in this channel (43 overall) # 18:59 [shurcool] it'd be helpful to update it too, so it's easier to tell what things I should talk in #dev about, and what things are better for #indieweb # 19:06 [miklb] I think I got them all. I didn’t change #wordpress as it has a good one already. # 19:06 Loqi miklb has 8 karma in this channel (44 overall) # 19:08 tantek Zegnat: re: selfauth, do you really think "choose a password" is simpler / more secure than using rel=me to an existing account someone already has a pw for, and likely also has 2FA setup for? # 19:08 tantek I think selfauth is great for folks that have no silo accounts, but if they already have a github / twitter / etc., then I think relmeauth is much easier to setup and far more secure # 19:10 Zegnat Is just a PW more secure than PW + 2FA? No. We were planning to add 2FA though, I am pretty close to launching that on my personal copy. Might land within this month. # 19:10 Zegnat Would I exchange 2FA for not having to tell silos when and where I login? Yes. # 19:10 Zegnat Would I exchange 2FA for stopping a common social engineering vector? Yes. # 19:18 tantek silos don't know, except that you used indieauth.com # 19:25 Zegnat If a website uses indieauth.com for RelMeAuth, then it is true the silos don’t know where I am going. Only indieauth.com knows (e.g. aaronpk). If a website implements RelMeAuth themselves it will be telling the silos # 19:26 tantek yes. because the user will have to auth with the silo to allow the site to know who they are # 19:27 tantek I believe you can choose to use indieauth.com as your indieauth provider on your own site # 19:28 [miklb] tantek are you saying in this case it’s better to use a silo? # 19:28 Zegnat Where best of both still includes being dependent on silo oauth implementations (several silos have already fallen out of support on indieauth.com) # 19:28 Zegnat And depending on aaronpk delivering a free service. (And aaronpk not monitoring my login usage. Or spoofing that he is me.) # 19:29 Zegnat There are a lot of things I have to trust there. While with selfauth I only have to trust my own website, which is a lot easier for me. KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 19:30 tantek miklb yes, 2FA gives the delegated login an advantage over just pw # 19:31 [miklb] I thought the discussion was about selfauth vs silo # 19:32 tantek the discussion about which is better for users # 19:32 tantek and I claim that convenient UX of a silo they already use + 2FA is far superior to setup your own single-factor password # 19:32 Zegnat So a silo offering 2FA overwrites all the possible trust issues in the chain? Definitely not for me. # 19:32 tantek no it is more secure. not more private. two different things # 19:33 Loqi tantek has 13 karma in this channel (376 overall) # 19:33 tantek yes if someone is particularly anti-silo, then it's good to recommend selfauth # 19:34 tantek otherwise it is better for the typical user to recommend relmeauth. better UX. more secure. # 19:35 Zegnat if someone has configured 2FA and wants that extra login security over login privacy, then I agree # 19:36 tantek typical silo users are already using delegated auth, e.g. Facebook Connect, etc. to login to other apps/services # 19:36 Zegnat And in the case of indieauth.com as endpoint, add to that the fact that they trust aaronpk with their login history, and trust aaronpk not to login as them # 19:36 Zegnat Even though they wouldn’t know aaronpk from a random man on the street. # 19:37 tantek I don't think indieauth.com keeps login history logs though it would be good to both ask and document that [kevinmarks] joined the channel
# 19:38 Zegnat “Would you trust this one-man operated website to identify you to services you use?” is an interesting question re indieauth.com # 19:38 Zegnat Silo users might trust Facebook Connect not to allow other people to identify as them, but would they also trust someone they don’t know? snarfed joined the channel
# 19:40 snarfed also worth noting that silos aren't more secure than the average indieweb site just because of 2FA. they're often more secure because they have orders of magnitude more resources, and incentive, to invest in security # 19:40 snarfed ie just like google has meaningfully better uptime than the average indieweb site, it also has meaningfully better security # 19:42 sebsel (aaronpk was talking about outsourcing his auth things to Google for that reason too... he trusts them with authentication) # 19:43 snarfed hell yes. indie doesn't mean we have to do everything ourselves, and security-critical parts are particularly dangerous to self-admin # 19:45 Zegnat I agree, in part. I don’t think a login form is dangerous to self-admin at all. # 19:48 Zegnat selfauth? It is a login form for 1 single user (no need to store PII anywhere) that redirects said user to another page. # 20:02 [miklb] heh, this conversation got me to install a one-time time based pw auth plugin on my WP site. (had been on my to-do list) # 20:04 Zegnat idly wonders how hard a WP IndieAuth plugin would be. # 20:04 Zegnat People might already be logged in to their blogs, so same friendly UX as silos. # 20:05 Zegnat Last time I checked there was one to use IndieAuth.com to login to your blog, but not to use your blog for logging in # 20:06 Loqi [pfefferle] wordpress-indieauth: IndieAuth for WordPress [colinwalker], eli_oat and [tantek] joined the channel
# 20:13 Zegnat I don’t think every WP plugin has a page on the wiki? # 20:24 [tantek] I was waiting for snarfed to make the bigco investment $ etc point about security # 20:56 sknebel (also, sgreger made the other direction, but I think he wanted to rework it before publishing) snarfed, davidmead, eli_oat and [tantek] joined the channel
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# 23:53 [kevinmarks] Facebook used to let you check friends in, but I think they changed it after we checked their CTO into a microformats meetup
sketchess Good morning everyone.
[jeremycherfas] So what is the problem, sketchess?
Zegnat sknebel: https://licit.li/59907b4ab4b4c
Loqi wall is the original name for a feature launched on Facebook which is a user's stream of updates shown on their profile page, similar to the main stream of posts you might show on your indieweb homepage, however with key innovations such as allowing your friends to "write" (create) posts on your wall, and also showing others' public posts that person-tag you https://indieweb.org/wall
jonnybarnes the annoying thing for me is when Swarm creates the second checkin, it doesn’t include the text/comment the original poster made
aaronpk Here's a good example of why not including the text and photo in the other persons Check-in is correct http://i.imgur.com/cKhBCNt.png
aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:swarm-checked-in-by.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:swarm-checked-in-by.png"
tantek aaronpk: maybe a new subsection here? https://indieweb.org/checkin#Swarm
sebsel (ah and the issue exists https://github.com/aaronpk/OwnYourSwarm/issues/24)
loqi.me edited /wall (+135) "tantek added "[[checkin#Checked_in_by|Swarm Checked in by feature]] similarly allows someone else to create a post on your checkin timeline (wall)" to "See Also"" (view diff)
[miklb] miklb set the channel topic: IndieWeb development-focused chat - logs at https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/today - bridged with #indieweb-dev in IRC
[kevinmarks] Facebook used to let you check friends in, but I think they changed it after we checked their CTO into a microformats meetup