#dev 2017-10-29

2017-10-29 UTC
tantek, Ruxton, [eddie] and snarfed joined the channel
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+0) "next hwc" (view diff)
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tantek what are standards
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "standards" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what are social standards
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Loqi social standards refers to web standards that have a social component, that is, for people (e.g https://indieweb.org/social_standards
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tantek standards are [[social standards]]
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /standards (+29) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek standards << https://twitter.com/jefflembeck/status/923577020570673152
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@jefflembeck Got a message from @maybekatz asking what kind of outlet they have at the hotel. All. No seriously. Just go ahead and plug some shit in. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNE0DFvUEAAMANv.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/923577020570673152)
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/jefflembeck/status/923577020570673152" to the "See Also" section of /social-standards
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loqi.me edited /social-standards (+60) "tantek added "https://twitter.com/jefflembeck/status/923577020570673152" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /pay_for_reach (+328) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek antipatterns << pay for reach
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Loqi ok, I added "[[pay for reach]]" to the "See Also" section of /antipatterns
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loqi.me edited /antipatterns (+20) "tantek added "[[pay for reach]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /Facebook_Algorithm (+38) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /algorithm (+32) "tantek added "[[Facebook Master Algorithm]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /pay_for_reach (+1065) "FB and Twitter examples using Oatmeal cartoon about the very problem." (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /pay_for_reach (+49) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /pay_for_reach (+19) "tantek added "[[antipatterns]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /pay_for_reach (+444) "/* Silo Examples */ articles" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Accelerated_Mobile_Pages (+292) "tantek added "2017-10-26 Ethan Marcotte: [https://ethanmarcotte.com/wrote/seven-into-seven/ Seven into seven.] <blockquote>Significant features and changes require the approval of AMP’s Technical Lead and one Core Committer, that list seems exclusi" (view diff)
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00dani.me edited /User:00dani.me (-96) "/* itches */ update: entries work now! [[micropub]] and [[webmentions]] don't, and [[websub]] is still manual, but getting there?" (view diff)
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00dani.me edited /User:00dani.me (-13) "update my IndieAuth status too" (view diff)
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00dani.me edited /IRC_People (+104) "/* Nicknames */ add oodani to the list c:" (view diff)
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@00d4n1 lemoncurry 1.5.0: now with indieauth! https://00dani.me/articles/4/lemoncurry-1-5-0-now-with-indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/924557652381679616)
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loqi.me created /Pronoun_Island (+101) "prompted by Zegnat and dfn added by Zegnat" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Pronoun_Island (+126) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Pronoun_Island (+51) "Zegnat added "IndieWeb example: [https://00dani.me/ 00dani.me]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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snarfed aaronpk: i finally got around to looking into why bridgy's "resend" didn't work for you back when it was missing your instagram synd links
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aaronpk oh?
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snarfed still not sure of root cause, but it's working now, and i didn't change anything, so my best guess is scraping flakiness/rate limiting
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aaronpk i just got some webmentions!
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snarfed plugging in both original post URLs and IG URLs works now
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snarfed yup i did it for two, https://aaronparecki.com/2017/08/29/17/ and https://aaronparecki.com/2017/10/04/20/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] If you're at #oktane17 grab a free copy of my book at the Okta store! They're already flying off the shelves :-) #oauth2simplified https://aaronparecki.com/2017/08/29/17/photo.jpg
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aaronpk cool
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snarfed feel free to do any more you know are missing
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aaronpk yay thanks
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snarfed but maybe space out a little to avoid IG rate limiting ??
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aaronpk good call haha
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Loqi rofl
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snarfed unrelated, almost at 900k wms sent, https://brid.gy/#stats . i'll have to throw a party at 1M. try to plan an SF visit in a few months! :P
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aaronpk nice! any prediction on when it will hit 1M?
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snarfed maybe 3 mos, +/- 1? not sure. let's see
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snarfed ok say 4.3 mos...but based on almost 1y old data, since i'm lazy and still haven't done https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/715
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Loqi [snarfed] #715 port statistics and to_tsv.py to bigquery
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snarfed hmm but i got farther than i remembered. maybe time to finish
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petermolnar !tell aaronpk I've tried XRay, impressive, but I'd love to see a PHAR version, so it's be simpler to call it from bash and python than `php -r chdir("/path/to/xray"); include("vendor/autoload.php"); $xray = new p3k\XRay(); echo(json_encode($xray->parse("URL-to-Parse")));`
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 82 karma in this channel (1456 overall)
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aaronpk yeah not a bad idea
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tantek agreed, xray is quite impressive
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tantek this is a great post about website/page performance by Alex Russell https://infrequently.org/2017/10/can-you-afford-it-real-world-web-performance-budgets/
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tantek what is performance
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Loqi Performance typically refers to the speed, responsiveness, and initial load of a website https://indieweb.org/performance
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tantek performance << 2017-10-22 Alex Russell: [https://infrequently.org/2017/10/can-you-afford-it-real-world-web-performance-budgets/ Can You Afford It?: Real-world Web Performance Budgets]
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Loqi ok, I added "2017-10-22 Alex Russell: [https://infrequently.org/2017/10/can-you-afford-it-real-world-web-performance-budgets/ Can You Afford It?: Real-world Web Performance Budgets]" to the "See Also" section of /performance
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loqi.me edited /performance (+171) "tantek added "2017-10-22 Alex Russell: [https://infrequently.org/2017/10/can-you-afford-it-real-world-web-performance-budgets/ Can You Afford It?: Real-world Web Performance Budgets]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek because displaying comments is still not something "totally figured out"
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tantek aaronpk from #indieweb :)
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aaronpk i guess i like my current design enough to just copy it
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tantek that's a fine place to start
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tantek another approach, if you're still struggling, would be to research / screenshot / wikify more silo comment display design
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tantek we have very few screenshots here and that would definitely help! https://indieweb.org/comments#Silos
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schmarty Aww, that's what I get for being away from IRC the last few days.
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sknebel ?
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schmarty aaronpk: did you have a chance to try out /Screech for posting your podcast?
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aaronpk i did look at it briefly, but I wanted something that will actually convert and manipulate my mp3 file
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schmarty It's very minimal at the moment and I haven't been giving it enough attention
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schmarty Ooh, convert/manipulate in what ways?
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aaronpk well i realized that when these episodes are 3-5 minutes, then saving a few minutes of post-production work actually is worth it
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raretrack.uk edited /User:Raretrack.uk (-30) "/* Future plans */ Youtube migration done" (view diff)
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aaronpk so my workflow now is i export the audio from my editor and upload it to Gramophone which converts it to mp3 at the specified bitrate and munges it to a mono file. that was a manual command line step for me before.
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aaronpk it then also handles embedding the artwork and setting all the id3 tags in the file
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aaronpk (i had a separate osx program for that before)
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schmarty Oh neat!
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aaronpk so now percolator.today is a pretty functional little website! It has a micropub endpoint, media endpoint, sends webmentions, and can receive and display webmentions!
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schmarty Very cool
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aaronpk (i tried logging in to screech just now but i got a 500 server error on the indieauth callback)
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schmarty Haha hmm. I will have to check the logs when I am around my computer.
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Loqi schmarty: lol
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aaronpk snarfed: thanks for the nudge, your comment shows up on my podcast site now!
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+2582) "Add Citations" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+476) "reformat chat channels, expand definitions, call to action to move dev topics from indieweb to dev" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /programming_language (+254) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /coding_language (+33) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /computer_language (+33) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /services (+19) "dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /get_started (+29) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+207) "/* Chat */ examples and links to topics" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+17) "try linking to new chat log directly" (view diff)
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tantek cool that worked
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+492) "tweak headings a bit, top set of links are just logs, add a missing -chat link" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /programming_language (-4) "terminal commands" (view diff)
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tantek anyone have/use a framework that they absolutely love? (one they didn't create themselves?)
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[miklb] bulma.io
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+109) "/* Chat Channels */ more keyword examples for indieweb dev" (view diff)
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tantek interesting
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tantek what is Bulma
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Bulma" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[miklb] Bulma is an opinionated Sass/frontend framework based on flexbox
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /Bulma (+92) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by [miklb]" (view diff)
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tantek Bulma << https://bulma.io/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://bulma.io/" to the "See Also" section of /Bulma
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loqi.me edited /Bulma (+37) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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tantek what is Sass
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Loqi SASS is a Stylesheet Language that extends CSS and is compiled into CSS before publishing https://indieweb.org/sass
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tantek Bulma << SASS
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loqi.me edited /Bulma (+7) "tantek added "SASS" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi ok, I added "SASS" to the "See Also" section of /Bulma
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tantek Bulma << framework
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loqi.me edited /Bulma (+16) "tantek added "[[framework]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi ok, I added "[[framework]]" to the "See Also" section of /Bulma
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tantek ^^^ aaronpk, why did Loqi add "SASS" not "[[SASS]]" but then added "[[framework]]" ?
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[miklb] I’m using it for my personal site now, and it is the basis for my generalized WordPress IW theme
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[miklb] And I’m also working on converting the jekyll theme to it as well
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aaronpk i think it requires an exact page name match, and there's no https://indieweb.org/SASS
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tantek makes sense
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aaronpk oh wow bulma.io looks nice
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[miklb] Sass is the preferred spelling
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tantek thanks!
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www.svenknebel.de moved /sass to /Sass "canonical casing"
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tantek.com edited /Bulma (+143) "Sass, linky linky, IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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sknebel what is a framework?
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Loqi A framework (in this context software framework or web framework in particular) is a software library and ways of using it that provides an alternative (often simplified) way of writing software, typically explicitly instead of how you would normally write that software https://indieweb.org/framework
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[miklb] aaronpk I’ve been very pleased with it and the direction the developer has taken it. The extensions people are building for it are great too
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[miklb] I think I started using it around v.3 and now at .6
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sknebel Did I not have enough coffee to grok that dfn, or does it read odd for other people as well?
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tantek sknebel: a framework is an abstraction, so defining it tends to be a bit abstract as well. yes it may require more coffee :)
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sknebel I know there's a bunch of definitions. Here I'm especially confused by the "explicitly", since a common criticism is rather the opposite (but then again, that's not global).
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tantek explicitly meaning the framework is designed to (and teaches you to) replace using some other programming language
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tantek true for most frameworks, e.g. use Sass *instead of* CSS selectors/rules
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sknebel Sass isn't a framework
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[miklb] correct
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KartikPrabhu or as it appears for CSS layout frameworks, they are mostly a set of conventions for creating common layout stuff
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aaronpk i might have to redo the CSS for Gramophone with Bulma
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KartikPrabhu and they lead to that ^
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[miklb] I would agree with that as well KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu I use Sass to mainly collect and define often used CSS values (like colours) in one place
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tantek Sass certainly fits the pattern for frameworks of something else you write-in and pre-process
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes
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KartikPrabhu whereas bulma seems to be set of conventions for CSS layout, similar to Bootstrap
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sknebel that some frameworks include custom languages doesn't make custom languages frameworks IMHO
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[miklb] fwiw, Bulma could be used without ever touching Sass, same with Bootstrap
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KartikPrabhu yes
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: I don't anyone claimed that custom laguages are frameworks
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KartikPrabhu don't think*
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[miklb] Is Laravel a framework for PHP?
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aaronpk yes
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KartikPrabhu yes
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tantek a custom language designed to replace the underlying language is typically a (or part of a) framework
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sknebel yes
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sknebel (that yes was re laravel, not tanteks claim)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: Sass is a counter-example. It is a custom language but not a "framework" in any sense
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tantek it's a framework to replace CSS rules
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sknebel It's language to generate CSS rules
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aaronpk if you want to stretch the definition of "framework" beyond the point of it being useful then yes
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[miklb] how if it compiles into CSS?
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tantek it's literally a replacement for a .css style sheet file
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tantek [miklb] many frameworks "compiles" or are re-interpreted into their underyling language(s)
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[miklb] no, it compiles into a .css stylesheet. You would never run .sass files in production
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tantek compile vs run-time interpret is not really a meaningful distinction here
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KartikPrabhu bows out of definition wrangling
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aaronpk i don't think people typically refer to languages that compile to other languages as frameworks
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[miklb] same
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tantek then how do you distinguish a framework vs just a library?
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[miklb] semantics?
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tantek right, what are the meaningful differences?
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sknebel I personally like the definition via "Inversion of Control"
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[miklb] but I’d argue a library can’t stand on its own, whereas a framework does
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aaronpk a library doesn't force you to structure your application in a certain way, libraries are typically encapsulated functionality
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KartikPrabhu what's "inversion of control"? defniception!
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tantek agreed, "inversion of control" is abstract and not helpful
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sknebel meaning that a library is something you call from your application, vs with a framework you create pieces that fit into/are called from the framework
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tantek aaronpk, whereas frameworks do force you to structure you application in a certain way?
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aaronpk right, when you use a framework you're fitting into that framework's rules
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tantek aaronpk, that's different though
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sknebel which e.g. makes the typical serverside web framework a framework: it calls you from incoming rules, you write functions and provide configuration for the core when to call them
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aaronpk different from what?
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tantek e.g. CASSIS has rules for your code to follow but does not make you structure your application in a certain way
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aaronpk sounds like a library to me
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tantek except it requires the rest of your code to follow rules
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tantek thus not really "encapsulated" as you said
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aaronpk a CSS framework provides a structure for you to use to create your website. a CSS library might do something like provide a nice looking button widget you can use on any website
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KartikPrabhu maybe these definitions are overlapping and not separating
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tantek or there are real world examples that are partly one and partly another
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tantek map vs territories problem
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petermolnar sees Bulma, thinks Dragonball, is there a story behind that framework?
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Zegnat I wonder about the overlap between DragonBall characters and framework names now, petermolnar. Apparently Goku is a “golang web mvc framework”.
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Loqi Zegnat: petermolnar left you a message 20 hours, 27 minutes ago: no, unfortunately I can't make it; on the learning docker though, it's not that much black magic
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KartikPrabhu someone make a Webeta framewrok please!
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sknebel what is Less?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Less" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sknebel (do people still use Less vs Sass? I haven't kept up with these things)
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[miklb] not really. It’s now Sass vs PostCSS IMO
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aaronpk wow i haven't even heard of PostCSS
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sknebel what is PostCSS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PostCSS" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar it's time for vanilla-css.com
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aaronpk https://vanillaframework.io/
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www.svenknebel.de edited /framework (-13) "/* JS */ jquery isn't a framework" (view diff)
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[miklb] PostCSS is a javascript tool to transform CSS
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /PostCSS (+73) "prompted by sknebel and dfn added by [miklb]" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh gosh that framework is full of p- prefixes
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tantek transform CSS into what? that's not a helpful dfn
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www.svenknebel.de edited /framework (+41) "/* Examples */ python examples" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: ha! you mean bulma?
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Zegnat It is CSS in, CSS out, for PostCSS, most of the time, tantek. Just with rewriting stuff applied.
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aaronpk no vanilla
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KartikPrabhu aah
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KartikPrabhu I always get turned off by "npm" installation instructions
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Zegnat I used PostCSS for a bit. There are some nice options for getting future CSS stuff in there like variables, adhering to proposed specs. I found that nice.
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[miklb] sorry if PostCSS’s definition of their tool isn’t a good dfn
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tantek KartikPrabhu: same tbh
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tantek miklb from that dfn there's no reason to use it
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tantek no benefit etc
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[miklb] ok
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KartikPrabhu this is a good resource https://inclusive-components.design/
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KartikPrabhu small patterns for things with accessibility in mind
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KartikPrabhu I am currently redoing marginalia.js following https://inclusive-components.design/collapsible-sections/
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KartikPrabhu not sure about web-components though
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tantek.com edited /discuss (-190) "/* Using an IRC client */ dedup list of channels, just go join them in the list above" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (-16) "unlock icon should only appear on http external links" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /mailing_list (+23) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /email_list (+0) "s/e.g./like in dfn so Loqi doesn't truncate dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /mailing_list (+0) "-r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /post (+922) "stub why with questions, and brainstorming too" (view diff)
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tantek As Twitter has essentially encouraged and amplified the worst of human nature (c.f. http://powazek.com/posts/3368 etc.), perhaps NextDoor too (cesspools of racism/classism etc.), is there a way to design the opposite?
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tantek Is there a way to design a silo or community that encourages and amplifies the best of human nature?
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[miklb] that would make a great blog post
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aaronpk hmm i just had an idea for a way that might make it easier for me to include photos in my posts from my phone
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martymcgui.re edited /podcast (+40) "/* How to consume */ add AntennaPod (i use it but otherwise not affiliated)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk I'd be curious to see what your approach is there (mobile photo posting) as compared to what benwerd did with Known and its mobile web UI
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tantek what is photo posting
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "photo posting" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[keithjgrant] It's an important question. The internet has given everybody a voice. The problem is no longer censorship, but abusive speech & propaganda
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tantek I thought for sure we had a separate page on that
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aaronpk it's not too bad using quill right now
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aaronpk but i often edit photos in other ios apps before i post them
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aaronpk and i just realized what i can do to cut out a few steps of that workflow
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+30) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /podcast (+26) "/* How to consume */ link podcatcher site" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /podcatcher (+13) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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oodani aaronpk, could you check the IndieAuth.com logs now? I just tried to auth with my site again and I'm still getting the "Something went horribly wrong!" response. :o
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aaronpk sure!
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oodani :)
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oodani Should be pretty recent in the log since I just retried right now. ;)
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aaronpk ooh it's the relative endpoint URL again
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oodani Huh, really? I figured because IndieAuth.com knew how to redirect to it in the first place, it'd handled it properly.
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aaronpk that would make sense :)
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oodani I'm guessing the redirect worked fine but the POST for verifying the auth code didn't?
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aaronpk yep exactly
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oodani Right. Guess I should make it an absolute URI, just to ensure compatibility.
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oodani No big deal, since the site already knows what domain it's at. :P
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oodani Yay, it worked! :3
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Loqi ?
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aaronpk cool! sorry bout that. I should probably fix that
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oodani Probably! I'm glad I discovered it for you. ;)
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub_media_endpoint (+633) (view diff)
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tantek.com created /IWC_Nuremberg (+27) "r" (view diff)
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oodani Aw dang, Woodwind still doesn't work. 'Login error: missing "me" in response'
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oodani My guess is that they don't set an Accept header?
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aaronpk oh that could be
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oodani Yep, I was right, requests doesn't send an Accept header by default. Should just be able to make it fall back to */* if there's no header provided though.
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oodani :/ Hmm. I made the Accept header default, but Woodwind's still complaining. ?
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oodani Yeah, I can't figure out what Woodwind's having trouble with. According to the source, it tries to interpret the resource content as JSON and then as form-encoded if that fails, rather than sending an Accept header to indicate which one it wants - which should still work fine judging from my tests with HTTPie.
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00dani.me edited /User:00dani.me (-1) "/* itches */ update: indieauth.com works fine (i had to use an absolute uri for my authorisation endpoint), but woodwind still doesn't" (view diff)
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aaronpk omg it works
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petermolnar ?
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aaronpk my little hack
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tantek.com edited /post (+121) "/* Thoughts on why post */ 100 days" (view diff)
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oodani So, indicating permashortlinks in markup.
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tantek what's your objective for indicating them?
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oodani Basically so they're discoverable? I'm not using anything visible for them yet though, so they're not all that discoverable.
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tantek discoverable by what or whom? and why would they want to discover them?
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oodani ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek without having a clear use-case, not worth bothering to mark them up explicitly
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oodani Fair enough, I guess.
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tantek.com edited /post (+200) "/* Thoughts on why post */ add some brainstorming for why, why might not, with alternatives" (view diff)
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Zegnat Woops, lets reply here, rel="shortlink" is a thing: Though I wouldn’t put it on the h-entry per se
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Zegnat http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-shortlink
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Loqi rel="shortlink"
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Zegnat oodani ^^^
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oodani Yeah, I noticed that on the page tantek linked explaining why not to use rev="canonical". :)
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Zegnat Ah, alrighty