#dev 2017-11-20

2017-11-20 UTC
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aaronpk !tell Zegnat I updated the docs for Caterpillar, including a new section on running as a system service: https://github.com/aaronpk/Caterpillar#running-as-a-system-service Let me know if that helps! There's also a folder with an example of how all the code fits together.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [aaronpk] Caterpillar: Caterpillar is a PHP job queueing system based on beanstalkd
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@frankmeeuwsen @ChrisAldrich @disqus I still need to work on a migration to webmentions! (twitter.com/_/status/932492878412156928)
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@tamssokari Yet another beauty of the web is in discovery of shared interests by someone whose paths have crossed with yours. (last RT was discovered through a comment / webmention on @adactio's blog) (twitter.com/_/status/932512565023952896)
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@tamssokari Yet another beauty of the web is in discovery of shared interests with someone whose path has crossed yours. (last RT was discovered through a comment / webmention on @adactio's blog) (twitter.com/_/status/932512805659594752)
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Zegnat [kevinmarks], cweiske, https://cyber.harvard.edu/rss/encodingDescriptions.html seems to suggest you just get the content of <description> and decode HTML entities once to get to the HTML content of an RSS item
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Loqi Zegnat: aaronpk left you a message 9 hours, 21 minutes ago: I updated the docs for Caterpillar, including a new section on running as a system service: https://github.com/aaronpk/Caterpillar#running-as-a-system-service Let me know if that helps! There's also a folder with an example of how all the code fits together.
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Zegnat If it isn’t CDATA, that is. If it is CDATA the content just equals HTML.
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Zegnat petermolnar: “<content:encoded><![CDATA[ is simpler, I can just dump the actual HTML content there” - that’s exactly how <description><![CDATA[ is already supposed to work though, if I read that encoding page right
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ancarda I saw something the other day about calculating the length of a Tweet, was it this library? https://github.com/twitter/twitter-text I seem to remember it had a commit about t.co links being https:// soon. Am I mis-remembering?
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Loqi [twitter] twitter-text: Twitter Text Libraries
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ancarda I can't find that commit or any mention of t.co being https (possibly I was daydreaming)
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ancarda https://github.com/twitter/twitter-text/commit/d393f056330cde571bbe281b68e1a02eec412a80
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ancarda 2 years ago, did this ever happen? I think t.co links have always been http:// right?
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sknebel ancarda: ? I only see https links on twitter
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ancarda Maybe I've never noticed - trust me to be oblivious to something that happened 2 years ago and I'm just finding out now
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[kevinmarks] The content:encoding thing is including an external xml module from the RDF fork of rss http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/
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[kevinmarks] The rss spec is short because it does not cover this kind of complexity
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Zegnat ancarda does it matter whether t.co are https or not? Any link in a tweet is counted as 23 characters.
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Zegnat [kevinmarks], I feel like https://cyber.harvard.edu/rss/encodingDescriptions.html is pretty clear about encoding
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cweiske (this is about one of the 4 formats that call themselves "RSS")
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[kevinmarks] so <content:encoded><![CDATA[ in RSS needs the xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" header
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[kevinmarks] so it's actually an <encoded> tag from that namespace
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Zegnat I mean, if I add any RSS at all it would be the latest 2.0 spec. Which seems to be pretty clear on encoding for the description element
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cweiske .. using the rss 1.0 namespace
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[kevinmarks] <content><![CDATA[ in Atom is a native element defined to be full text
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[kevinmarks] rather <content type="html"><![CDATA[
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[kevinmarks] you can do the thing tantek does, and put xhtml in there without escaping, but it often confuses parsers
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[kevinmarks] you can also put <content type="text"> and either CDATA it or just use xml escaping.
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Zegnat I don’t author XHTML, so that’s out, [kevinmarks].
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[kevinmarks] no, that is quixotic and likely to make your feed fail if you accidentally get it wrong
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Zegnat Hmm, tantek’s feed hasn’t died for me, even though he too had some XHTML problems some weeks ago. Maybe my feed reader fixed the mistakes.
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[kevinmarks] feedparser has a lot of code to deal witg this kind of thing
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Zegnat 10 days ’til PHP 7.2 stable release. Everyone ready?
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ancarda Yeah, should be cool once it's live! Going to stick to 7.1 for now as it won't be on apt-get for a while, even though I can get it on Homebrew now
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cweiske ondrey's deb archive is always up to date
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cweiske s/y/j/
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cweiske https://deb.sury.org/
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cweiske he is the official debian php maintainer and offers the latest versions on his own repository
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ancarda Hmm, I do seem to remember `ppa:ondrej/php`, I think I did this when 7.0 had just been released, as I wanted to upgrade as soon as I could
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ancarda I'm ok to wait for 7.2 though :/
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Zegnat I think I had to go through deb.sury.org just to get 7.1 on debian stable.
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Zegnat So if you are on debian and are on 7.1, you probably use it already, which means you also already have access to 7.2 (even right now, I think RC6 is on there)
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Zegnat is relearning how to write services
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cweiske init services?
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petermolnar Zegnat you mean systemd unit files?
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Zegnat petermolnar, yes
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Zegnat I have done this some year ago, but totally forgot most of it
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petermolnar poke me if you get stuck, but it should be rather straightforward
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Zegnat Yeah, I should be able to get this working. Run PHP process as www-data user, depend on beanstalkd already running.
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aaronpk I can't keep all the systemd/init stuff on ubuntu straight. it seems like they keep changing their minds every release
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ancarda I think Ubuntu these days just uses systemd
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sknebel yeah. they had the added complication of going through upstart first, so they have compat layers for that
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Zegnat As far as I can see, Debian is still just systemd with the standard INI-format .service files. I know these. I just don’t do anything with them often enough to know by heart.
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sknebel but you can write "pure" systemd files, just as on debian
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sknebel yes Zegnat
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Zegnat Basically I am procrastinating with other server stuff so I do not have to wrangle with nginx and my ssl set-up for now
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ancarda I'll happily take over
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ancarda Actually serious note here; I'd be happy to help anyone with anything security related. I know for a lot of people, setting up SSL is really boring and painful
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aaronpk there's /etc/init/, /etc/init.d/, and /etc/systemd/, and I can never remember which is the "right" one to use
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Zegnat I was going to go with https://mozilla.github.io/server-side-tls/ssl-config-generator/ until I learned that nginx can’t handle separate settings per vhost, so I need to decide on one.
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aaronpk [miklb] [chrisaldrich] still having trouble with indienews? I see a rel=syndication link on miklb's post, but indienews expects a microformats u-syndication or u-category link, not rel
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aaronpk Zegnat: nginx can handle different ssl settings per vhost
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ancarda If you use `systemctl install foo.service`, AFAIK systemd will symlink to that from /etc/systemd/system/foo.service
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Zegnat Alright, yes, aaronpk, I could be more clear. Certain ssl settings like ssl_protocols cannot differ per vhost on the same IP.
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sknebel aaronpk: not all kinds of settings differently. e.g you can't have it support different TLS versions on different vhosts
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petermolnar aaronpk 'systemctl [action] [stuff]'
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Zegnat It isn’t the most clearly documented thing though. Which really ticked me off
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petermolnar or 'service [stuff] [action]'
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aaronpk oh sure but I don't think that's an nginx limitation, that sounds like a protocol limitation
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petermolnar don't use the directory links
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sknebel it's not a protocol limitation
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aaronpk petermolnar: how do you add things there without using the directories?
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petermolnar systemctl enable x
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Zegnat It is a limitation of the protocol implementation in openSSL as used by nginx. If my research has been good.
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petermolnar oh, you mean new unit files?
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aaronpk yeah like if I want to write a service for the ownyourswarm worker
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petermolnar for that you need the paths, yes, but that's /lib/systemd/system on debian imo
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aaronpk omg there's /lib/systemd on ubuntu too.
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aaronpk so wait is systemd the best current one?
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aaronpk not whatever /etc/init/ is?
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sknebel yes
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petermolnar as init system? that's the de facto at this point in time
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petermolnar /etc/init is ancient
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aaronpk wat
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aaronpk it's newer than /etc/init.d/
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petermolnar /etc/init.d is the old place for bash scripts
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petermolnar sorry, that's etc/inittab
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petermolnar the ancient one
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petermolnar yeah, it's a bit messy
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sknebel petermolnar: afaik /lib/systemd/system is for system provided units, /etc/systemd/system for administrator added/overrides
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aaronpk also the docs are super confusing, because the first result for "ubuntu systemd" is this page with a pretty good URL https://wiki.ubuntu.com/systemd which has this giant warning at the top "The information on this page is severely out of date. Don't use it!"
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petermolnar I has root, I use /lib :D
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aaronpk which makes me think that this is not the best option
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sknebel the actual systemd docs aren't bad
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Zegnat What sknebel said, I am adding my worker service under /etc/. Even if I am root :P
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cweiske https://github.com/cweiske/phubb#system-service
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Loqi [cweiske] phubb: PHP PubSubHubbub server. Mirror of http://git.cweiske.de/phubb.git/
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aaronpk this? https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
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petermolnar the archlinux wiki is usually very good for understanding things
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petermolnar but it differs from ubuntu here and there
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petermolnar however, to simple get a basic understanding, it's usually the best source
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Zegnat Wow, that @ trick seems super useful cweiske!
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petermolnar https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd
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Zegnat makes note to simply always check cweiske repos first
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sknebel aaronpk: on there, specifically the "The systemd for Administrators Blog Series" and then the man pages e.g. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.unit.html# + of course serverfault ;)
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petermolnar a note to the @ unit files: you can't use invalid usernames with that, eg. I forced usernames to match domain names - systemd doesn't accept that with @, so in that case, use the user id
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aaronpk I guess at some point I should rebuild all my init scripts in systemd
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sknebel Zegnat: that "@ trick" is the idea of "instances" http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/instances.html
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aaronpk I have a combination of upstart, systemd, and supervisord right now
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petermolnar the @ is how I run multiple spotify instances on the same server
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sknebel (like the note at the bottom of that post: " If you'll plan to comment on the escaping algorithm please also mention where you live so that I can come around and paint your bike shed yellow with blue stripes. ")
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Zegnat Basically exactly what you want for a worker that listens for jobs on beanstalk: if I ever see that the 1 worker can’t keep up I want to quickly add another instance
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petermolnar btw if you need tricky dependencies, such as timestamp change on file -> restart X, I still use monit
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Zegnat Great if I can do that without having to clone the service file
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petermolnar so whenever the ssl certs are regenerated, it automatically restarts the relevant services
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aaronpk Zegnat: that does look neat. hopefully it's good enough to drop the whole forking mechanism of my caterpillar worker
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Zegnat aaronpk, yeah, I never knew instances were a thing. We didn’t use them at work for our Gearman workers.
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Zegnat And I rather have systemd manage the instances than a PHP script with Caterpillar. No offence ;)
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aaronpk same. I wrote that before systemd was around
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aaronpk if you change your caterpillar worker to use `run_foreground` it will be a worker directly and you can use it with that instead of forking
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sknebel petermolnar: yeah, it's a bit strange that path units can't do service restarts nicely
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Zegnat Yes, i realised that. Run foreground and only 1 worker. But at that point I wondered if I couldn't just write against Pheanstalk directly.
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Zegnat Not sure yet what I settle on for the workers, aaronpk. First looking into getting the php scrip to reliably run through systemd.
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aaronpk yeah, at that point caterpillar is really just the pattern of calling methods on classes, and handles a little bit of beanstalk boilerplate for you
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aaronpk you'll end up implementing https://github.com/aaronpk/Caterpillar/blob/master/src/Caterpillar.php#L105 and https://github.com/aaronpk/Caterpillar/blob/master/src/Caterpillar.php#L51 directly
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[miklb] aaronpk there is a u-syndication on the href
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aaronpk [miklb]: I didn't see it in the source
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aaronpk oops my bad I see it now. was wrapping weird
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aaronpk oh I see what's going on, that's showing up inside the h-cite instead of on the h-entry https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmiklb.com%2F2017%2F11%2Fchristian-heilmann-web-truths-the-web-is-better-than-any-other-platform-as-it-is-backwards-compatible-and-fault-tolerant%2F
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[miklb] figured it was in my markup and how the syndication plugin inserts that link. I’ll look closer.
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[miklb] I want to figure it out so I can start doing weekly IndieWeb WordPress wrap-up posts.
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aaronpk nice
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dgold schmarty++ for morris
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Loqi schmarty has 9 karma in this channel (51 overall)
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schmarty dgold: ooh, are you using it? i just got it set up for my personal site yesterday and fixed a bug or two.
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loqi.me edited /Facebook (+85) "[kevinmarks] added "We Can't Trust Facebook to Regulate Itself - New York Times http://nzzl.us/6FLIrHJ" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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schmarty it could definitely use a review from someone who is used to releasing "real" PHP apps
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schmarty but i am happy with it so far.
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dgold schmarty: I haven't started using it, but I'm excited to see someone releasing such a thing
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ascraeus.org edited /JSON_Feed (+164) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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Zegnat dgold, you don’t have access to a JSON serialisation function? It is generally not a good idea to write serialisation formats through templating functions
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dgold i'm afraid i'm unsure what you mean, Zegnat
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Zegnat You are now using a template file. But when you write {{ .Title }}, are you sure that is doing all the escaping JSON needs? It is better to just put an object through something like PHP’s json_encode() to make sure what you are creating is valid JSON.
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Zegnat Not sure if Hugo gives you access to a json_encode-like function though.
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dgold it does - jsonify
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Zegnat This is also how a lot of XML files (RSS/ATOM) have gone wrong throughout the years. People writing XML by hand and echo’ing variables into it.
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Zegnat While they should really have been using XML libs for writing the files.
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dgold in the final code I used, which I need to replace the one on that old blog post with, I use:
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dgold "title": {{ .Title | jsonify }}
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sknebel not in the code in your articl
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sknebel ah
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Zegnat Can’t you just make an Object, append the .Site.Pages you want, and then jsonify the entire object once?
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Zegnat That would be the recommended way, IMHO
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petermolnar I'm going to ask the unholy question: are there any proper xml namespace hacks/includes to serve atom AND rss in the same file? :D
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tantek hahahaha
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Loqi tantek: lol
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tantek petermolnar that seems like the kind of unholy hack to try web searching for
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tantek and if no one has done it, and you can do it in a way that works with the remaining few feed file aggregators, it's definitely worth a blog post
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tantek bonus points if you can make it valid XHTML as well, with h-feed :D
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loqi.me created /FTTC (+390) "prompted by Zegnat and dfn added by ancarda" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /FTTC (+78) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /FTTP (+308) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by ancarda" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /FTTP (+69) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /FTTH (+17) "prompted by sknebel and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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dgold Zegnat: yes it does!
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dgold ;-)
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tantek petermolnar: now you have me curious
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dgold Zegnat: I don't think you can do that with hugo, tbh
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tantek since I try to stick with XML-valid HTML5, theoretically I should be able to drop in the extra Atom and RSS elements and have them just "work" on my home page
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tantek oh wait you can't do that with RSS because RSS requires XML-escaping all the nested HTML in articles/items because RSS itself is not powerful enough to handle nested markup for content (Atom fixed this)
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tantek RSS--
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Loqi rss has -2 karma in this channel (-3 overall)
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dgold rss--
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Loqi rss has -3 karma in this channel (-4 overall)
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tantek but I *might* be able to do that with Atom
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snarfed "can i CASSIS RSS and Atom" may be the perfect tantek nerd snipe
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tantek snarfed, hahaha
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tantek that'll take longer. my home page / feed file generation code is still mostly PHP-specific, with some use of CASSIS functions. converting the whole thing to CASSIS is still a longer term project
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Zegnat dgold, could be that hugo doesn’t support it. Just wanted to point out that templating serialisation formats is often very fragile.
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tantek yeah for sure
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dgold it it wrong that i kinda prefer how my site looks in unmung than how it looks in the actualité?
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snarfed oh yeah i just meant CASSIS as a generic verb for "find a working subset of two alternative languages"
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk Maybe that's lowercase "cassis"
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tantek snarfed I don't think Atom / RSS have any overlap
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tantek in tags etc.
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snarfed right
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tantek it would be more like a parallel universe kind of thing
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snarfed so maybe "union" instead of subset
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tantek (e.g. I've done this with HTML + JS)
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tantek (files that can be read/parsed/"executed" as either)
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tantek useful for JS with built-in HTML marked up documentation
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aaronpk Oh my
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tantek you can src= include it to work, and just drop it into a browser to view its documentation
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tantek *rich documentation
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tantek ages ago in the early 2000s I think
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tantek gosh this is hard to search for
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dgold went down a rabbit hole looking for this, forgot it was dave winer
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dgold http://scripting.com/rss.json
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dgold rss, but in json
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tantek well I know it's in my blog from 2002-2006 so I may just have to do local file search since web search is failing me
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aaronpk Oh my... what's the relationship between that and JSONFeed
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tantek aaronpk - don't go there, I believe there is drama
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tantek I wish I could search Google for markup in examples like "src="
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tantek specifically inside <code> elements
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[miklb] aaronpk now I’m getting a `target_mismatch` error, URL on the page did not match the target URL of the Webmention. Any suggestions?
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[miklb] what is target mismatch
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "target mismatch" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[miklb] lol, seems I had a trailing slash and that caused it to fail.
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[manton] aaronpk I started to type an answer about JSON Feed and Dave's RSS as JSON, but Tantek's right, don't want to add more drama... Happy to talk about it in Austin over a beer. ?
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tantek manton++
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Loqi manton has 1 karma in this channel (30 overall)
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[cleverdevil] drama--
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Loqi drama has -1 karma
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[cleverdevil] ?
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aaronpk ?
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aaronpk [miklb]: that sounds like whatever url was send as the target parameter in the webmention request was not exactly the same as the url in the post
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[miklb] aaronpk, yes, I had news.indieweb.org/en/ and it was rejecting the trailing slash
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tantek when I see URLs with .../cache/busting/... in them it makes me sad. Sad that apparently dealing with caching is so hard that people need such hacks
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tantek (from oree.co )
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tantek (via [cleverdevil] )
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tantek also
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tantek what is netdna-ssl.com?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "netdna-ssl.com" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is netdna-ssl
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "netdna-ssl" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek why does netdna need a *separate domain for SSL?!?*
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[miklb] aaronpk unless I was getting caught with caching
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aaronpk I don't think it caches... I could be wrong
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loqi.me created /WooCommerce (+110) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by [miklb]" (view diff)
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[miklb] I create static html cache of my entries
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[kevinmarks] dgold You could use the unmung template, it's jinja2 so close to the Hugo style
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dgold [kevinmarks]: thanks, :), but I think i'll take it as a sign from high atop the whatever that I need to change my site's design quite completely
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[kevinmarks] Oh, maybe not, the template is doing the name mapping https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/master/hfeed.html
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[kevinmarks] I forgot I did it that way
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@CodingItWrong The #indieweb is a return to the original vision of the web; I want to make an 88x31px “Works With Webmentions” badge (cc @keithjgrant) (twitter.com/_/status/932731732985565187)
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tantek I found it, by browsing my website files directory, not by search. There's definitely a use-case for a human browseable website files directory, in contrast to hiding things in an opaque (and fragile) database file (even SQLlite), or having a system that generates thousands of files.
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loqi.me created /TLA (+117) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by [kevinmarks]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /TLA (+30) "prompted by aaronpk, FTFY kevinmarks" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /TLA (+27) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /jargon (+120) "expand with indieweb examples to relate to indieweb, add word as new acronym usage as well" (view diff)
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tantek here it is - the poorly named "Semantic Scripting" for how I figured how to make a file that is both HTML and Javascript simultaneously http://tantek.com/log/2002/11.html#L20021121t1730
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tantek The example, rather than the backstory: http://tantek.com/log/targetsheet.html
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tantek there you go snarfed ^^^
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snarfed ?
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+640) "/* Define jargon */ Definitions include indieweb relevance" (view diff)
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tantek wow that hack is 15 years old tomorrow
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tantek considers making a version of cassis.js that also displays as HTML
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aaronpk would it be basically inline docs for all the functions?
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tantek yes
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aaronpk that'd be pretty hilarious
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tantek hmm I wonder if each function would make sense as an h-entry
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tantek then you could browse them in your feedreader
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aaronpk ?
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tantek perhaps with good revision control, you could even insert the created/published/updated dates per function
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tantek perhaps even per function authors if there are different primary authors of different functions